Discussion:
The wifes of Sweyn I
Add Reply
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-06-25 21:24:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
What do you think of the issue of the wifes of Sweyn I of Denmark? On one hand, Adam of Bremen said that he had only one wife, who was daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and previously wife of Eric I of Sweden. On the other hand, the Norwegian and Icelandic sagas say that he, actually, had two wifes, the first being daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and the second being a native Scandinavian, previously wife of Eric I of Sweden.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Świętosława, most historians prefer the sagas' account.
However, I must say that I disagree with that. The Scandinavian sagas are legendary while Adam of Bremen was a respected historian. In addition, the Scandinavian sagas are later than Adam of Bremen.
wjhonson
2020-06-25 22:40:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
What do you think of the issue of the wifes of Sweyn I of Denmark? On one hand, Adam of Bremen said that he had only one wife, who was daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and previously wife of Eric I of Sweden. On the other hand, the Norwegian and Icelandic sagas say that he, actually, had two wifes, the first being daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and the second being a native Scandinavian, previously wife of Eric I of Sweden.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Świętosława, most historians prefer the sagas' account.
However, I must say that I disagree with that. The Scandinavian sagas are legendary while Adam of Bremen was a respected historian. In addition, the Scandinavian sagas are later than Adam of Bremen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunhild_of_Wenden

You will see all arguments laid out
Peter Stewart
2020-06-26 00:13:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
What do you think of the issue of the wifes of Sweyn I of Denmark? On one hand, Adam of Bremen said that he had only one wife, who was daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and previously wife of Eric I of Sweden. On the other hand, the Norwegian and Icelandic sagas say that he, actually, had two wifes, the first being daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and the second being a native Scandinavian, previously wife of Eric I of Sweden.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Świętosława, most historians prefer the sagas' account.
However, I must say that I disagree with that. The Scandinavian sagas are legendary while Adam of Bremen was a respected historian. In addition, the Scandinavian sagas are later than Adam of Bremen.
When sources conflict, it is not necessarily the case that one of them
must be right and the other wrong - nor, if that is so, that we can tell
which is which.

It may be that one or both had the same impulse as seems to prompt your
post, wanting to record history with conviction even though lacking
verification.

As far as I can recall, Sven's son Cnut was said to have been baptised
in Bremen and Adam is supposed to have learned details of the family's
history from Cnut's nephew - but that doesn't prove the chronicler knew
and recorded everything perfectly. Also, in Heimskringla Cnut's mother
was said to have been Gunhild daughter of Borislav, king of the Wends,
so the sagas are not unanimous about a daughter of Mieszko I of Poland
and a native Scandinavian anyway.

Nights were long and memories were short, and/or fuzzy with drink. The
best we can do is note whatever was written down later and take into
account circumstantial evidence (such as Cnut's baptismal name Lambert,
also given to a son of Mieszko I and taken by a grandson, Mieszko II).
We don't have to decide everything with certitude.

Peter Stewart
taf
2020-06-26 00:25:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
What do you think of the issue of the wifes of Sweyn I of Denmark? On one hand, Adam of Bremen said that he had only one wife, who was daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and previously wife of Eric I of Sweden. On the other hand, the Norwegian and Icelandic sagas say that he, actually, had two wifes, the first being daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and the second being a native Scandinavian, previously wife of Eric I of Sweden.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Świętosława, most historians prefer the sagas' account.
However, I must say that I disagree with that. The Scandinavian sagas are legendary while Adam of Bremen was a respected historian. In addition, the Scandinavian sagas are later than Adam of Bremen.
When sources conflict, it is not necessarily the case that one of them
must be right and the other wrong - nor, if that is so, that we can tell
which is which.
Right, and this is not just a question of one vs the other. The Wikipedia pages list three historical accounts, Adam, Thietmar and the Gesta Cnutonis regis as giving accounts of the marriage, in addition to Heimskringla.

taf
taf
2020-06-26 00:18:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
What do you think of the issue of the wifes of Sweyn I of Denmark? On one
hand, Adam of Bremen said that he had only one wife, who was daughter of
Mieszko I of Poland and previously wife of Eric I of Sweden. On the other
hand, the Norwegian and Icelandic sagas say that he, actually, had two
wifes, the first being daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and the second being
a native Scandinavian, previously wife of Eric I of Sweden.
No, not quite. The saga material says that Sweyn married Gunhild, daughter of Burislav of the Wends.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Świętosława, most historians prefer the sagas' account.
You really need to go back and reread what that page says. It says that this account [the one in Icelandic sagas] is viewed as LESS reliable than the contemporary sources by most scholars, and highlights that the very existence of Sigrid the Haughty "is viewed skeptically." It then proceeds summarize a single genealogist's published reconstruction that views things differently, giving Sweyn two wives, the first a daughter of Mieszko of Poland, and the second Sigrid.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
However, I must say that I disagree with that. The Scandinavian sagas are
legendary while Adam of Bremen was a respected historian. In addition, the
Scandinavian sagas are later than Adam of Bremen.
It seems you are in agreement with the page.

There are actually three different Wikipedia pages for this wife/wives, one under Svietoslawa, one under Gunhild and one under Sigrid, and they all say the same thing, that most scholars dismiss the accuracy of the saga account.

taf
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-06-26 08:18:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
What do you think of the issue of the wifes of Sweyn I of Denmark? On one
hand, Adam of Bremen said that he had only one wife, who was daughter of
Mieszko I of Poland and previously wife of Eric I of Sweden. On the other
hand, the Norwegian and Icelandic sagas say that he, actually, had two
wifes, the first being daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and the second being
a native Scandinavian, previously wife of Eric I of Sweden.
No, not quite. The saga material says that Sweyn married Gunhild, daughter of Burislav of the Wends.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Świętosława, most historians prefer the sagas' account.
You really need to go back and reread what that page says. It says that this account [the one in Icelandic sagas] is viewed as LESS reliable than the contemporary sources by most scholars, and highlights that the very existence of Sigrid the Haughty "is viewed skeptically." It then proceeds summarize a single genealogist's published reconstruction that views things differently, giving Sweyn two wives, the first a daughter of Mieszko of Poland, and the second Sigrid.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
However, I must say that I disagree with that. The Scandinavian sagas are
legendary while Adam of Bremen was a respected historian. In addition, the
Scandinavian sagas are later than Adam of Bremen.
It seems you are in agreement with the page.
There are actually three different Wikipedia pages for this wife/wives, one under Svietoslawa, one under Gunhild and one under Sigrid, and they all say the same thing, that most scholars dismiss the accuracy of the saga account.
taf
First, Gunhild can be easily as being a distorted version of the Mieszko's daughter.
Second, I meant that most historians accept the sagas' version as in Sweyn having had two wifes, not their identity, and that Canute the Great and Saint Olaf were only stepsiblings, not half-siblings.
taf
2020-06-26 14:00:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
First, Gunhild can be easily as being a distorted
version of the Mieszko's daughter.
That is the general consensus of modern attempts to make sense of things.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Second, I meant that most historians accept the sagas'
version as in Sweyn having had two wifes, not their
identity, and that Canute the Great and Saint Olaf were
only stepsiblings, not half-siblings.
Just because there is one aspect of similarity between the saga and the modern consensus, that does not mean that historians "accept the sagas' version", when the page you were reading explicitly characterized them as dismissing the sagas as a reliable source. Rather it is a case that the saga version bears a certain resemblance to what is found in the historical record and accepted by most historians.

As always, what is important here is what the sources, both primary and modern historians, actually say, which is not necessarily the same as what Wikipedia says they say.

taf
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-06-26 17:27:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
First, Gunhild can be easily as being a distorted
version of the Mieszko's daughter.
That is the general consensus of modern attempts to make sense of things.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Second, I meant that most historians accept the sagas'
version as in Sweyn having had two wifes, not their
identity, and that Canute the Great and Saint Olaf were
only stepsiblings, not half-siblings.
Just because there is one aspect of similarity between the saga and the modern consensus, that does not mean that historians "accept the sagas' version", when the page you were reading explicitly characterized them as dismissing the sagas as a reliable source. Rather it is a case that the saga version bears a certain resemblance to what is found in the historical record and accepted by most historians.
As always, what is important here is what the sources, both primary and modern historians, actually say, which is not necessarily the same as what Wikipedia says they say.
taf
Sorry. I should have worded what I said better.
Still, I have a hard time prefering even those details of the sagas.
What do you think? Was the Polish princess mother of both Olaf and Canute or not?
taf
2020-06-26 19:28:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Still, I have a hard time prefering even those details of the sagas.
So does (almost) everyone else. It is not clear why you keep invoking the sagas.

taf
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-06-26 21:11:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Still, I have a hard time prefering even those details of the sagas.
So does (almost) everyone else. It is not clear why you keep invoking the sagas.
taf
No offense, but you're not understanding what I'm saying.
Most historians agree with the sagas that Sweyn I of Denmark had two wifes and that Canute the Great and Saint Olaf were only stepbrothers, not maternal half-brothers.
However, I am too skeptical of those sagas to accept that and prefer Adam of Bremen's testimony.
What do you think of this?
taf
2020-06-26 22:05:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
No offense, but you're not understanding what I'm saying.
Most historians agree with the sagas that Sweyn I of Denmark had two wifes and that Canute the Great and Saint Olaf were only stepbrothers, not maternal half-brothers.
However, I am too skeptical of those sagas to accept that and prefer Adam of Bremen's testimony.
What do you think of this?
You say I am not understanding what you are saying, and then you repeat exactly what I thought you were saying. I think you are setting up a false dichotomy between the sagas and Adam, as if those were the only two sources historians consider when addressing the question.

taf
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-06-26 22:23:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
No offense, but you're not understanding what I'm saying.
Most historians agree with the sagas that Sweyn I of Denmark had two wifes and that Canute the Great and Saint Olaf were only stepbrothers, not maternal half-brothers.
However, I am too skeptical of those sagas to accept that and prefer Adam of Bremen's testimony.
What do you think of this?
You say I am not understanding what you are saying, and then you repeat exactly what I thought you were saying. I think you are setting up a false dichotomy between the sagas and Adam, as if those were the only two sources historians consider when addressing the question.
taf
They are the only mutually contradictory sources. Thus, we must pick one.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-06-26 22:28:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
No offense, but you're not understanding what I'm saying.
Most historians agree with the sagas that Sweyn I of Denmark had two wifes and that Canute the Great and Saint Olaf were only stepbrothers, not maternal half-brothers.
However, I am too skeptical of those sagas to accept that and prefer Adam of Bremen's testimony.
What do you think of this?
You say I am not understanding what you are saying, and then you repeat exactly what I thought you were saying. I think you are setting up a false dichotomy between the sagas and Adam, as if those were the only two sources historians consider when addressing the question.
taf
Thing is, both Adam of Bremen and the sagas provided more details than the other sources and they are mutually contradictory. Thus, we must pick one.
Regardless, you still haven't answered my questions: In your opinion, did Sweyn I of Denmark have two wifes, like the sagas claim? Were Canute the Great and Saint Olaf maternal half-brothers or only stepbrothers?
Peter Stewart
2020-06-26 22:51:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
No offense, but you're not understanding what I'm saying.
Most historians agree with the sagas that Sweyn I of Denmark had two wifes and that Canute the Great and Saint Olaf were only stepbrothers, not maternal half-brothers.
However, I am too skeptical of those sagas to accept that and prefer Adam of Bremen's testimony.
What do you think of this?
You say I am not understanding what you are saying, and then you repeat exactly what I thought you were saying. I think you are setting up a false dichotomy between the sagas and Adam, as if those were the only two sources historians consider when addressing the question.
taf
Thing is, both Adam of Bremen and the sagas provided more details than the other sources and they are mutually contradictory. Thus, we must pick one.
NO, we mustn't. We MAY pick one, but unless there is sufficient
circumstantial evidence behind the choice this can be arbitrary and -
for all we know - wrong.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Regardless, you still haven't answered my questions: In your opinion, did Sweyn I of Denmark have two wifes, like the sagas claim? Were Canute the Great and Saint Olaf maternal half-brothers or only stepbrothers?
Todd is not obliged to have a fixed opinion, much less to express it on
demand.

Caution should be applied in making too sharp a distinction between
Nordic sagas and Latin chronicles as sources of reliable information.
Both were written records of narratives that had been orally transmitted
(initially anyway, at least if not set down by eye-witnesses), both
genres aimed to entertain as well as to inform, and both were intended
partly for audiences that may not have been able to read the texts
themselves. Lectors reading aloud to carousers might go overboard with
their own improvisations that could become incorporated into subsequent
iterations in writing, for instance. We have Latin manuscripts with
additions and punctuation that were apparently interpolated by anonymous
users for reading aloud - and these manuscripts were sometimes copied
with the later additions incorporated as if original.

A form of skaldic tradition was imitated by some Latin chroniclers, most
irritatingly and foolishly by Dudo of Saint-Quentin in his history of
the Normans, but the compulsion to spin off into paeans of either pagan
or Christian piety and hero-worship were common throughout European
medieval cultures.

Adam of Bremen was scrupulous enough to make plain in a note that he did
not know whether Sven's Polish wife was a daughter or granddaughter of
Mieszko I, but this alone should not invalidate - or validate - what he
had to say. It does, however, suggest that without some corroborative
evidence he should not be taken as the oracle for this particular bit of
uncertain genealogy.

Peter Stewart
taf
2020-06-27 01:58:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Adam of Bremen was scrupulous enough to make plain in a note that he did
not know whether Sven's Polish wife was a daughter or granddaughter of
Mieszko I, but this alone should not invalidate - or validate - what he
had to say. It does, however, suggest that without some corroborative
evidence he should not be taken as the oracle for this particular bit of
uncertain genealogy.
And on the other hand, the compilers of the saga material, as we now have it, were not just cultural anthropologists recording the stories they heard. They had access to historical materials and in some cases, specific sources (such as a specific manuscript of the Anglian Collection) can be identified as having provided source material for their writings.

taf
taf
2020-06-27 01:53:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Thing is, both Adam of Bremen and the sagas provided more details than the
other sources and they are mutually contradictory.
They are not mutually contradictory - they present similar patterns, but they differ in one detail, albeit one that is critical to genealogists.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Thus, we must pick one.
Why must we pick one or the other? Why are only the two most detailed accounts the only ones with useful information? This is not really the best way to address a genealogical puzzle. What does Thitmar have to say? I notice that the Wikipedia article on Cnut says Encomium Emmae says something about it - what does it say? We can best address this question by looking at all the evidence, not just picking between two specific sources and ignoring all other evidence.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Regardless, you still haven't answered my questions: In your opinion, did
Sweyn I of Denmark have two wifes, like the sagas claim?
From what Peter posted, this is like Adam too. I don't know that we have any sources that explicitly say Sweyn only had one wife.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Were Canute the Great and Saint Olaf maternal half-brothers or only
stepbrothers?
Yes. As you say, they were maternal half-brothers or step-brothers.

taf
Peter Stewart
2020-06-27 06:34:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Thing is, both Adam of Bremen and the sagas provided more details than the
other sources and they are mutually contradictory.
They are not mutually contradictory - they present similar patterns, but they differ in one detail, albeit one that is critical to genealogists.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Thus, we must pick one.
Why must we pick one or the other? Why are only the two most detailed accounts the only ones with useful information? This is not really the best way to address a genealogical puzzle. What does Thitmar have to say? I notice that the Wikipedia article on Cnut says Encomium Emmae says something about it - what does it say?
The only references I can see to Cnut's mother in *Encomium Emmae
reginae* are mentions that he and his brother Harald went to the land of
Slavs where she was living and brought her back to Denmark ("Pariter
uero Sclauoniam adierunt, et matrem suam, quae illic morabatur,
reduxerunt) and subsequently that Cnut said farewell to her and his
brother ("Tunc rex ualedicens matri et fratri"). There appears to be
nothing about her father having been Mieszko I as represented in the
Wiki page.

Peter Stewart
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-06-30 01:01:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Thing is, both Adam of Bremen and the sagas provided more details than the
other sources and they are mutually contradictory.
They are not mutually contradictory - they present similar patterns, but they differ in one detail, albeit one that is critical to genealogists.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Thus, we must pick one.
Why must we pick one or the other? Why are only the two most detailed accounts the only ones with useful information? This is not really the best way to address a genealogical puzzle. What does Thitmar have to say? I notice that the Wikipedia article on Cnut says Encomium Emmae says something about it - what does it say?
The only references I can see to Cnut's mother in *Encomium Emmae
reginae* are mentions that he and his brother Harald went to the land of
Slavs where she was living and brought her back to Denmark ("Pariter
uero Sclauoniam adierunt, et matrem suam, quae illic morabatur,
reduxerunt) and subsequently that Cnut said farewell to her and his
brother ("Tunc rex ualedicens matri et fratri"). There appears to be
nothing about her father having been Mieszko I as represented in the
Wiki page.
Peter Stewart
Yes, but Wikipedia only uses that as evidence that Canute's mother was Slavic.
Peter Stewart
2020-06-30 01:09:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Thing is, both Adam of Bremen and the sagas provided more details than the
other sources and they are mutually contradictory.
They are not mutually contradictory - they present similar patterns, but they differ in one detail, albeit one that is critical to genealogists.
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Thus, we must pick one.
Why must we pick one or the other? Why are only the two most detailed accounts the only ones with useful information? This is not really the best way to address a genealogical puzzle. What does Thitmar have to say? I notice that the Wikipedia article on Cnut says Encomium Emmae says something about it - what does it say?
The only references I can see to Cnut's mother in *Encomium Emmae
reginae* are mentions that he and his brother Harald went to the land of
Slavs where she was living and brought her back to Denmark ("Pariter
uero Sclauoniam adierunt, et matrem suam, quae illic morabatur,
reduxerunt) and subsequently that Cnut said farewell to her and his
brother ("Tunc rex ualedicens matri et fratri"). There appears to be
nothing about her father having been Mieszko I as represented in the
Wiki page.
Peter Stewart
Yes, but Wikipedia only uses that as evidence that Canute's mother was Slavic.
You are not reading the same Wiki page as I am - see here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut_the_Great

Under "Birth and Kingship" it says:

"The Chronicon of Thietmar of Merseburg and the Encomium Emmae report
Cnut's mother as having been a daughter of Mieszko I of Poland."

Peter Stewart
taf
2020-06-29 17:28:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Were Canute the Great and Saint Olaf maternal half-brothers or only
stepbrothers?
Yes. As you say, they were maternal half-brothers or step-brothers.
The reason I have been ducking this question (well, one reason) is that I remember seeing a full analysis of the question, with sources cited and quoted. I thought maybe it was part of Henry Project, or in the archives of this group, but I didn't find it either place (though there is a lot of archive material that does not survive). Anyone else remember reading (or perhaps writing) such an analysis?

taf
Peter Stewart
2020-06-29 22:05:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Were Canute the Great and Saint Olaf maternal half-brothers or only
stepbrothers?
Yes. As you say, they were maternal half-brothers or step-brothers.
The reason I have been ducking this question (well, one reason) is that I remember seeing a full analysis of the question, with sources cited and quoted. I thought maybe it was part of Henry Project, or in the archives of this group, but I didn't find it either place (though there is a lot of archive material that does not survive). Anyone else remember reading (or perhaps writing) such an analysis?
Could you be recalling this 1996 post from Rafał Prinke in reply to
Stewart Baldwin?

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/ko89OAjAVhE/6TPo8uS0PTUJ

Or perhaps Rafał's thorough analysis in 'Świetosława, Sygryda, Gunhilda:
tożsamość córki Mieszka I i jej skandynawskie zwiazki' in *Roczniki
historyczne* 70 (2004) 81-109.

Peter Stewart
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-06-30 01:00:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by taf
Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Were Canute the Great and Saint Olaf maternal half-brothers or only
stepbrothers?
Yes. As you say, they were maternal half-brothers or step-brothers.
The reason I have been ducking this question (well, one reason) is that I remember seeing a full analysis of the question, with sources cited and quoted. I thought maybe it was part of Henry Project, or in the archives of this group, but I didn't find it either place (though there is a lot of archive material that does not survive). Anyone else remember reading (or perhaps writing) such an analysis?
Could you be recalling this 1996 post from Rafał Prinke in reply to
Stewart Baldwin?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/ko89OAjAVhE/6TPo8uS0PTUJ
tożsamość córki Mieszka I i jej skandynawskie zwiazki' in *Roczniki
historyczne* 70 (2004) 81-109.
Peter Stewart
Both Rafal Prinke and Stewart Baldwin changed their minds later, https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/Z2TDlWJpbyY/yRWWTShGRSQJ.
Peter Stewart
2020-06-30 03:23:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by taf
Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Were Canute the Great and Saint Olaf maternal half-brothers or only
stepbrothers?
Yes. As you say, they were maternal half-brothers or step-brothers.
The reason I have been ducking this question (well, one reason) is that I remember seeing a full analysis of the question, with sources cited and quoted. I thought maybe it was part of Henry Project, or in the archives of this group, but I didn't find it either place (though there is a lot of archive material that does not survive). Anyone else remember reading (or perhaps writing) such an analysis?
Could you be recalling this 1996 post from Rafał Prinke in reply to
Stewart Baldwin?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/ko89OAjAVhE/6TPo8uS0PTUJ
tożsamość córki Mieszka I i jej skandynawskie zwiazki' in *Roczniki
historyczne* 70 (2004) 81-109.
Peter Stewart
Both Rafal Prinke and Stewart Baldwin changed their minds later, https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/Z2TDlWJpbyY/yRWWTShGRSQJ.
I doubt that this can reflect the settled opinion of Stewart Baldwin:

"A woman, name not known from early sources (called Gunnhild in the
much later Heimskringla, where she is called daughter of Búrizláf of
the Wends, probably in confusion with the lady's brother Boleslaw of
Poland), daughter of Mieszko of Poland".

Heimskringla may well be confused, but not evidently about the names
Burislav and Boleslav since it says that Sven was taken prisoner into
the land of the Wends by Jarl Sigvald, husband of Burislav's daughter
Astrid, where he was forced to accept terms for peace including marriage
to Burislav's daughter Gunhild while Burislav himself married Sven's
sister Thyra, and that Sven returned to Denmark with his wife Gunhild:

Finnur Jónsson edition, vol. I pp. 319-320: "Sigvaldi jarl hafði hǫndum
tekit Svein konung ok flutt hann til Vindlandz til Jómsborgar ok
nauðgaði hann til sætta við Búrizláf, Vinða-konung, ok til þess at
Sigvaldi jarl skyldi gera sætt milli þeira, - Sigvaldi jarl átti þá
Astríði, dóttur Búrizláfs konungs, - ok at ǫðrum kosti segir jarl at
hann myndi Svein konung fá í hendr Vinðum. En konungr vissi þat, at þeir
mundu kvelja hann til bana; játti hann fyrir því sættar-gǫrð jarls. Jarl
dœmði þat, at Sveinn konungr skyldi fá Gunnhildar, dóttur Búrizláfs
konungs, en Búrizláfr konungr skyldi fá Þyri Haraldz dóttur, systur
Sveins konungs, en hvártveggi þeira skyldi halda ríkinu, ok skyldi vera
friðr milli landa. Fór þá Sveinn konungr heim í Danmork með Gunnhildi,
konu sína."

As translated by Samuel Laing, vol. II pp. 119-120: "Earl Sigvald had
taken King Svein prisoner, and carried him to Vindland, to Jomsborg,
where he had forced him to make peace with Burisleif, the king of the
Vinds, and to take him as the peace-maker between them. Earl Sigvald was
married to Astrid, a daughter of King Bnrisleif; and told King Svein
that if he did not accept of his terms, he would deliver him into the
hands of the Vinds. The king knew that they would torture him to death,
and therefore agreed to accept the earl's mediation. The earl delivered
this judgment between them that King Svein should marry Gunhild, King
Burisleif's daughter; and King Burisleif again Thyre, a daughter of
Harald, and King Svein's sister; but that each party should retain their
own dominions, and there should be peace between the countries. Then
King Svein returned home to Denmark with his wife Gunhild.")

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart
2020-06-26 03:50:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
What do you think of the issue of the wifes of Sweyn I of Denmark? On one hand, Adam of Bremen said that he had only one wife, who was daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and previously wife of Eric I of Sweden. On the other hand, the Norwegian and Icelandic sagas say that he, actually, had two wifes, the first being daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and the second being a native Scandinavian, previously wife of Eric I of Sweden.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Świętosława, most historians prefer the sagas' account.
However, I must say that I disagree with that. The Scandinavian sagas are legendary while Adam of Bremen was a respected historian. In addition, the Scandinavian sagas are later than Adam of Bremen.
Wherever you are getting your information about this, I suggest you junk
it and start again.

Adam of Bremen specified that Sven had two wives: the first a Swede who
was related to him [MGH 1917 edition p. 152: Cumque rex iuvenis Suein
... consanguineam a Suedia duxit uxorem] and divorced for this reason.
Adam named her as "the very saintly" Gunhild, who after her repudiation
for consanguinity lived on her own estates across from Denmark, i.e. in
Sweden [ibid. p. 157: ad sanctissimam Gunhild reginam, quae a rege
Danorum pro consanguinitate separata in prediis suis trans Daniam
commorata est] - in scholion 66 (67), glossing this, Adam says that
"another" (wife of Sven, presumably the same "saintly" one) was Gunhild,
widow of Anund, another was Gytha, whom Thyra murdered [ibid. p. 157:
Alia erat Gunhild, relicta Anundi, alia Gude, quam Thora interfecit].
Later he described Thyra as one of Sven's concubines, who poisoned the
legitimate queen Gytha [ibid. 167: una ex concubinis, Thore, legitimam
Gude reginam veneno extinxit].

So you may need to revise your conclusion about one Polish wife based on
this "respected historian".

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2020-06-26 08:12:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
What do you think of the issue of the wifes of Sweyn I of Denmark? On
one hand, Adam of Bremen said that he had only one wife, who was
daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and previously wife of Eric I of
Sweden. On the other hand, the Norwegian and Icelandic sagas say that
he, actually, had two wifes, the first being daughter of Mieszko I of
Poland and the second being a native Scandinavian, previously wife of
Eric I of Sweden.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Świętosława, most
historians prefer the sagas' account.
However, I must say that I disagree with that. The Scandinavian sagas
are legendary while Adam of Bremen was a respected historian. In
addition, the Scandinavian sagas are later than Adam of Bremen.
Wherever you are getting your information about this, I suggest you junk
it and start again.
Adam of Bremen specified that Sven had two wives: the first a Swede who
was related to him [MGH 1917 edition p. 152: Cumque rex iuvenis Suein
... consanguineam a Suedia duxit uxorem] and divorced for this reason.
Adam named her as "the very saintly" Gunhild, who after her repudiation
for consanguinity lived on her own estates across from Denmark, i.e. in
Sweden [ibid. p. 157: ad sanctissimam Gunhild reginam, quae a rege
Danorum pro consanguinitate separata in prediis suis trans Daniam
commorata est] - in scholion 66 (67), glossing this, Adam says that
"another" (wife of Sven, presumably the same "saintly" one) was Gunhild,
Alia erat Gunhild, relicta Anundi, alia Gude, quam Thora interfecit].
Later he described Thyra as one of Sven's concubines, who poisoned the
legitimate queen Gytha [ibid. 167: una ex concubinis, Thore, legitimam
Gude reginam veneno extinxit].
So you may need to revise your conclusion about one Polish wife based on
this "respected historian".
Apologies, Paulo - the passages quoted above must be about Sven
Estridson's wives, not Sven Forkbeard's.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2020-06-26 08:38:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
What do you think of the issue of the wifes of Sweyn I of Denmark? On one hand, Adam of Bremen said that he had only one wife, who was daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and previously wife of Eric I of Sweden.
I can't find that Adam of Bremen stated this paternity or prior marriage
for Sven Forkbeard's wife anywhere - can you please give a citation?

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2020-06-26 09:19:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
What do you think of the issue of the wifes of Sweyn I of Denmark? On
one hand, Adam of Bremen said that he had only one wife, who was
daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and previously wife of Eric I of Sweden.
I can't find that Adam of Bremen stated this paternity or prior marriage
for Sven Forkbeard's wife anywhere - can you please give a citation?
Now I see what you are referring to - it's not an explicit statement,
and Adam did not know the details exactly. He wrote that Eric of Sweden
made an alliance with Boleslav king of the Poles, who gave him his
daughter or sister; and later that Sven married Eric's widow who was the
mother of Cnut.

In the MGH 1917 edition, on p. 95 scholion 24 (25): "Hericus rex Sueonum
cum potentissimo rege Polanorum Bolizlao fedus iniit. Bolizlaus filiam
vel sororem Herico dedit"; and on p. 99: "Post mortem diu optatam Herici
Suein ... accepit uxorem Herici relictam ... quae peperit ei Chnud".

Thietmar of Merseburg identified her father as Mieszko, and Boleslav as
her brother, in the MGH 1935 edition, p. 446: "filiis Suenni ... Hos
peperit ei Miseconis filia ducis, soror Bolizlavi successoris eius et nati".

Neither of them appears to have said that this Polish princess was the
only wife of Sven.

Petr Stewart
Loading...