Discussion:
New light re. Joan de Neville, wife of Henry de la Mare and Walter de la Hyde
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Douglas Richardson
2008-08-16 16:20:37 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

Back in 2004, I presented evidence which proved conclusively that Maud
de la Mare, wife of Sir Peter de Montfort, of Beaudesert,
Warwickshire, was the daughter and heiress of Sir Henry de la Mare
(died 1257), a royal justice. I likewise presented evidence which
indicated that Henry de la Mare's wife, Joan, was in turn the daughter
of Sir John de Neville, of Essex, by his wife, Hawise de Courtenay.

The evidence proving Joan de Neville's parentage consists of several
pieces of indirect evidence, which taken as a whole, indicate her
parentage. One of the more unusual items comes from the Close Rolls
which reveals that royal deer once owned by Hawise de Courtenay, were
afterwards found to be in the possession of Walter de la Hyde, the
second husband of Joan, widow of Sir Henry de la Mare [Reference:
C.C.R. 1272-1279 (1900): 378]. The evidence concerning Joan de
Neville's parentage is more fully summarized in my book, Magna Carta
Ancestry, published by Genealogical Publishing Company in 2005. My
research findings can also be found scattered through various posts in
the soc.genealogy.medieval archives.

Until now, there has been no direct evidence that Hawise de Courtenay
had such a daughter named Joan de Neville. Fortunately, however, it
has been learned that an ancient letter of Hawise de Courtenay has
survived, which letter was written about 1258 to her son, Hugh de
Neville, Knt., then in the Holy Land. A transcript of the letter was
published in 1846 by Mary Anne Everett Wood in her interesting series
of volumes, Letters of Royal and Illustrious Ladies of Great Britain
[specifically volume 1, pp. 42-46]. A translated transcript of the
letter may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=YKgKAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Green+Letters+of+Royal+and+Illustrious+Ladies#PPA42,M1

In her letter, Hawise de Courtenay makes reference to Hugh de
Neville's father in law, which person would surely be Hugh's step-
father, Sir John de Gatesden.

Towards the close of the letter she adds the following greeting:

"Sir Walter de la Hide, Joanna your sister, and all our household,
salute you." END OF QUOTE.

Thus, thanks to the efforts of Mrs. Wood, we now have concrete
evidence that Hawise de Courtenay had a daughter named Joan, who not
surprisingly is mentioned in this letter in association with Sir
Walter de la Hyde, to whom Joan was married about the time this letter
was written.

For those interested in the extended ancestry of Joan de Neville, wife
of Henry de la Mare and Walter de la Hyde, they may wish to consult
Jim Weber's fine database at the following weblink:

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=jweber&id=I33424&style=TEXT

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
t***@clearwire.net
2008-08-16 21:38:56 UTC
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Post by Douglas Richardson
For those interested in the extended ancestry of Joan de Neville, wife
of Henry de la Mare and Walter de la Hyde, they may wish to consult
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=jweber&id=I...
Before you all go copying this stuff into your database, beware. Most
of the early material in this tree is utter nonsense. Non-existent
people, ridiculous connections, etc. The material is not to be
trusted and its recommendation was, charitably, imprudent.

taf
pj.evans
2008-08-17 14:49:57 UTC
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Permalink
Post by t***@clearwire.net
Post by Douglas Richardson
For those interested in the extended ancestry of Joan de Neville, wife
of Henry de la Mare and Walter de la Hyde, they may wish to consult
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=jweber&id=I...
Before you all go copying this stuff into your database, beware. Most
of the early material in this tree is utter nonsense.  Non-existent
people, ridiculous connections, etc.  The material is not to be
trusted and its recommendation was, charitably, imprudent.
taf
A good idea with much of the medieval data there; it frequently ends
up in the fictitious genealogies, even if the more recent material is
good. (I generally get that stuff when I'm pulling an entire file for
a modern line. The amusement comes when you find the source file has a
person linked as their own ancestor.)
t***@clearwire.net
2008-08-17 18:08:38 UTC
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Post by pj.evans
A good idea with much of the medieval data there; it frequently ends
up in the fictitious genealogies, even if the more recent material is
good. (I generally get that stuff when I'm pulling an entire file for
a modern line. The amusement comes when you find the source file has a
person linked as their own ancestor.)
I get more amusement from the extent to which people will go to
engineer an ancient line. Fulbert, tanner of Falaise is made to marry
the daughter of the king of Scotland. Gunnora, the sister-in-law of a
Norman forester is made granddaughter of Swedish kings on one side,
and Danish on the other. AEthelred II, who named his sons Egbert,
Alfred, Athelstan, Edwy, Edgar, Edmund, Edward (see the pattern here -
all prior kings) is given a sons Ingelric. The completely invented
John de Conteville "Vicomte de Comyn" is used to make various lines
descend from the Counts of Flanders. etc. Sorry, Jim, but there is a
lot of dead wood and not a little bit of parasitic ivy that needs
trimmed off of this tree.

taf
g***@sky.com
2008-08-18 13:33:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by t***@clearwire.net
Post by pj.evans
A good idea with much of the medieval data there; it frequently ends
up in the fictitious genealogies, even if the more recent material is
good. (I generally get that stuff when I'm pulling an entire file for
a modern line. The amusement comes when you find the source file has a
person linked as their own ancestor.)
I get more amusement from the extent to which people will go to
engineer an ancient line.  Fulbert, tanner of Falaise is made to marry
the daughter of the king of Scotland.  Gunnora, the sister-in-law of a
Norman forester is made granddaughter of Swedish kings on one side,
and Danish on the other. AEthelred II, who named his sons Egbert,
Alfred, Athelstan, Edwy, Edgar, Edmund, Edward (see the pattern here -
all prior kings) is given a sons Ingelric. The completely invented
John de Conteville "Vicomte de Comyn" is used to make various lines
descend from the Counts of Flanders. etc.  Sorry, Jim, but there is a
lot of dead wood and not a little bit of parasitic ivy that needs
trimmed off of this tree.
taf
As an amateur genealogist who has made extensive use of Jim's database
I instantly looked up the entries you highlighted to find that for all
of them I had made due correction already following the Henry project
or the post-its from Curt Hoffman on Jim's db, info from this group or
some other source. Whilst I cannot defend the widespread issuing of
faulty, erroneous or misguided information on the web -and there is a
great mess of it for sure- I personally think that Jim's db is better
than most: he has posted references for many entries and used the post-
it system and taken note of corrections in many (thought not all)
instances. For those of us with no access to CP, ES, Turton, Domesday
descendants etc it serves as a starting point. Personally if there are
no references given then I look for corroboration elsewhere. Perhaps
those who spot obvious errors should themselves send post-its and
allow it to become a cooperative consensus database in the same way
that the Henry Project has.
That said - Jim - perhaps an update is overdue

GeoffV
Merilyn Pedrick
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
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-------Original Message-------

From: Douglas Richardson
Date: 08/17/08 01:55:00
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: New light re. Joan de Neville, wife of Henry de la Mare and Walter
de la Hyde

Dear Newsgroup ~

Back in 2004, I presented evidence which proved conclusively that Maud
de la Mare, wife of Sir Peter de Montfort, of Beaudesert,
Warwickshire, was the daughter and heiress of Sir Henry de la Mare
(died 1257), a royal justice. I likewise presented evidence which
indicated that Henry de la Mare's wife, Joan, was in turn the daughter
of Sir John de Neville, of Essex, by his wife, Hawise de Courtenay.

The evidence proving Joan de Neville's parentage consists of several
pieces of indirect evidence, which taken as a whole, indicate her
parentage. One of the more unusual items comes from the Close Rolls
which reveals that royal deer once owned by Hawise de Courtenay, were
afterwards found to be in the possession of Walter de la Hyde, the
second husband of Joan, widow of Sir Henry de la Mare [Reference:
C.C.R. 1272-1279 (1900): 378]. The evidence concerning Joan de
Neville's parentage is more fully summarized in my book, Magna Carta
Ancestry, published by Genealogical Publishing Company in 2005. My
research findings can also be found scattered through various posts in
the soc.genealogy.medieval archives.

Until now, there has been no direct evidence that Hawise de Courtenay
had such a daughter named Joan de Neville. Fortunately, however, it
has been learned that an ancient letter of Hawise de Courtenay has
survived, which letter was written about 1258 to her son, Hugh de
Neville, Knt., then in the Holy Land. A transcript of the letter was
published in 1846 by Mary Anne Everett Wood in her interesting series
of volumes, Letters of Royal and Illustrious Ladies of Great Britain
[specifically volume 1, pp. 42-46]. A translated transcript of the
letter may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google
com/books?id=YKgKAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Green+Letters+of+Royal+and+I
lustrious+Ladies#PPA42,M1

In her letter, Hawise de Courtenay makes reference to Hugh de
Neville's father in law, which person would surely be Hugh's step-
father, Sir John de Gatesden.

Towards the close of the letter she adds the following greeting:

"Sir Walter de la Hide, Joanna your sister, and all our household,
salute you." END OF QUOTE.

Thus, thanks to the efforts of Mrs. Wood, we now have concrete
evidence that Hawise de Courtenay had a daughter named Joan, who not
surprisingly is mentioned in this letter in association with Sir
Walter de la Hyde, to whom Joan was married about the time this letter
was written.

For those interested in the extended ancestry of Joan de Neville, wife
of Henry de la Mare and Walter de la Hyde, they may wish to consult
Jim Weber's fine database at the following weblink:

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm
cgi?op=PED&db=jweber&id=I33424&style=TEXT

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah





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Innperlenburg
2020-07-17 19:03:19 UTC
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Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
Back in 2004, I presented evidence which proved conclusively that Maud
de la Mare, wife of Sir Peter de Montfort, of Beaudesert,
Warwickshire, was the daughter and heiress of Sir Henry de la Mare
(died 1257), a royal justice. I likewise presented evidence which
indicated that Henry de la Mare's wife, Joan, was in turn the daughter
of Sir John de Neville, of Essex, by his wife, Hawise de Courtenay.
The evidence proving Joan de Neville's parentage consists of several
pieces of indirect evidence, which taken as a whole, indicate her
parentage. One of the more unusual items comes from the Close Rolls
which reveals that royal deer once owned by Hawise de Courtenay, were
afterwards found to be in the possession of Walter de la Hyde, the
C.C.R. 1272-1279 (1900): 378]. The evidence concerning Joan de
Neville's parentage is more fully summarized in my book, Magna Carta
Ancestry, published by Genealogical Publishing Company in 2005. My
research findings can also be found scattered through various posts in
the soc.genealogy.medieval archives.
Until now, there has been no direct evidence that Hawise de Courtenay
had such a daughter named Joan de Neville. Fortunately, however, it
has been learned that an ancient letter of Hawise de Courtenay has
survived, which letter was written about 1258 to her son, Hugh de
Neville, Knt., then in the Holy Land. A transcript of the letter was
published in 1846 by Mary Anne Everett Wood in her interesting series
of volumes, Letters of Royal and Illustrious Ladies of Great Britain
[specifically volume 1, pp. 42-46]. A translated transcript of the
http://books.google.com/books?id=YKgKAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Green+Letters+of+Royal+and+Illustrious+Ladies#PPA42,M1
In her letter, Hawise de Courtenay makes reference to Hugh de
Neville's father in law, which person would surely be Hugh's step-
father, Sir John de Gatesden.
"Sir Walter de la Hide, Joanna your sister, and all our household,
salute you." END OF QUOTE.
Thus, thanks to the efforts of Mrs. Wood, we now have concrete
evidence that Hawise de Courtenay had a daughter named Joan, who not
surprisingly is mentioned in this letter in association with Sir
Walter de la Hyde, to whom Joan was married about the time this letter
was written.
For those interested in the extended ancestry of Joan de Neville, wife
of Henry de la Mare and Walter de la Hyde, they may wish to consult
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=jweber&id=I33424&style=TEXT
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Many thanks for this.

I am very interested in finding out if Hawise de Courtenay, wife of John de Gatesden, also had a daughter with him, Joan de Gatesden, who later married Richard Chamberlayne.

Best regards,

Frances

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