Sunday, 18 January, 2004
Dear Peter, Thierry, et al.,
Two quick observations on the subject of Richilda's alleged ancestry.
1. In reviewing some details concerning Richilda's immediate
descendants (see 3-generation pedigree below), the namesake
for each child seems in most cases readily apparent (esp.
names such as Baldwin, Richilda, Alix/Aleidis, Henry). Two
of her grandchildren for whom a namesake cannot be readily
identified are children of her son Baldwin II: Louis, and
Simon (the latter a canon at Liege).
The source for Simon (outside of a possible religious, non-family
derivation) is uncertain. A convenient (if unproven) source for
Louis' name would be provided, if in fact Richilda's father was
Louis/Ludwig of Mousson (as originally suggested in this thread,
thanks to Leo).
2. Thierry had previously cited a source which not only provided
evidence for Richilda's blood relationship to Pope Leo IX,
"[who was] the uncle of Richilda" (Flandria Generosa, MGH SS IX,
p. 320: "...eiusdem Richildis avunculo"), but also indicated a
less specific relationship to the 'imperial' family, referring
to Richilda, "who was of the imperial blood" (Cont. Aquicinctina,
p. 553: "Richildem quae erat de sanguine imperiali ...").
It is not certain what is meant by this, but it can be
reasonably presumed that a descent from either a Carolingian
subsequent (Holy Roman) Emperor was intended. The AT given in
an earlier post in this thread showed that, if Richilda was
the daughter of Louis of Mousson and his wife Sophia of
Upper Lorraine (heiress of Bar), she would then have been the
great-granddaughter of Hermann II, Duke of Swabia (d. 1003)
and his wife Gerberga, daughter of Conrad III 'the Pacific'
of Burgundy (d. 993). This relationship would provide lines
of descent from Otto I 'the Great (one), Henry 'the Fowler
(two), and also the Carolingian Louis IV 'd'Outremer', King
of France (one).
Even closer, as a 'family' relationship, Sophia of Upper
Lorraine was a first cousin of the Emperor Henry III (her
mother Matilda of Swabia was sister to Gisela, wife of
Conrad II and mother of Henry III). Such a close kinship
for Richilda (if a daughter of Sophia) would not have
escaped notice.
Cheers,
John *
1 Baldwin VI of Flanders
----------------------------------------
Death: 1070[1]
Occ: Count of Flanders 1067-1070, Count of Hainault
Father: Baldwin V 'of Lille' of Flanders (-1067)
Mother: Adela of France (-1097)
Count of Flanders 1067-1070
Count of Hainault (as Baldwin I)
re: his wife:
Richilda, countess of Hainault (widow of Hermann of Hainault)
' Richeldis comitissa ', founded the abbey of Saint-Denis en
Broqueroie, 1081 together with her son Count Baldwin
[ Cartulaire de l’abbaye de Saint-Denis en Broqueroie, fol. 10, verso][2]
Spouse: Richilda of Hainault
Death: 1086[3]
Marr: 1051[4]
Children: Arnulf (-1071)
Baldwin II (-1098)
Agnes
1.1 Arnulf of Hainault
----------------------------------------
Death: 22 Feb 1071, near Cassel (d.s.p.)[4]
Occ: Count of Flanders and Hainault 1070-1071
Count of Flanders and Hainault 1070-1071
Flanders seized by uncle Robert 'the Frisian' on his death[1]
1.2 Baldwin II of Hainault
----------------------------------------
Death: 1098, Palestine (on crusade)[1]
Occ: Count of Hainault ca 1071-1098
Count of Hainault ca 1071-1098
Spouse: Ida of Louvain
Death: ca 1139[5]
Father: Henry II, Count of Louvain (-ca1079)
Children: Baldwin III (1088-1120)
Louis
Simon
Henry
William
Arnulf
Ida
Richilda
Alix (->1152)
1.2.1 Baldwin III of Hainault
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1088
Death: 1120[1]
Occ: Count of Hainault 1098-1120
Spouse: Yolande of Gueldres
Father: Gerhard II, Count of Gueldres (-<1138)
Mother: Clementia von Gleiberg
Marr: ca 1107
Children: Baldwin IV (ca1110-<1171), Count of Hainault
Ida, m. Roger (III) de Tosny
1.2.2 Louis of Hainault
----------------------------------------
cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]
1.2.3 Simon of Hainault
----------------------------------------
canon, of Liege
cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]
1.2.4 Henry of Hainault
----------------------------------------
cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]
1.2.5 William of Hainault
----------------------------------------
cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]
1.2.6 Arnulf of Hainault
----------------------------------------
Occ: seigneur du Roeulx
seigneur du Roeulx (de jure uxoris)
name also given as 'Arnoul'[5]
Spouse: Beatrix d'Ath
Father: Gautier d'Ath
Mother: Ada de Roucy
Children: Eustache (-ca1192), seigneur du Roeulx
1.2.7 Ida of Hainault
----------------------------------------
cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]
Spouse: Thomas de Coucy, sieur de Coucy et Marle
Death: ca 1131, Laon[6]
Father: Enguerrand I de Coucy (-1116)
Mother: Ada de Roucy
1.2.8 Richilda of Hainault
----------------------------------------
cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]
Spouse: Amaury de Montfort-l'Amaury, comte d'Evreux
Death: bef 20 Apr 1136[7]
Father: Simon de Montfort-l'Amaury (-1087)
Mother: Agnes of Evreux
Marr: ca 1115[1]
1.2.9 Alix of Hainaut[8]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1152[1],[9]
'Aelidis' (D. Shepard, citing ES)[9]
cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]
Spouse: Nicholas II de Rumigny, seigneur de Rumigny
Death: aft 1153[9]
Children: Beatrice (->1191), m. Gossuin III, seigneur de Mons
1.3 Agnes of Hainault
----------------------------------------
cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]
1. Paul Theroff, "The Counts of Flanders and Hainault," Paul Theroff's
Dynastic Genealogy Files, worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/theroff/
2. "Cartulaire de l’abbaye de Saint-Denis en Broqueroie,"
http://membres.lycos.fr/saintdenis/chartres1.html
cites Cartulaire de l’abbaye de Saint-Denis en Broqueroie,
fol. 10, verso, located in Archives de L’Etat à Mons, Belgium.
3. Thierry Stasser, "Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of
Hereford," Jan 11, 2004, paper copy: library of John Ravilious,
cites (Van Overstraeten, pp. 502-503) and other sources, English
extract by Todd A. Farmerie.
4. David Nicholas, "Medieval Flanders," London: Longman Group, 1992.
5. Steven Van Impe, "Hainaut," March 20, 1997, paper copy, library of
John P. Ravilious, descent from Baldwin VI of Flanders (I of Hainaut),
via Baldwin II of Hainaut to Agnes du Roeulx.
6. Abbe Suger, "The Life of King Louis," Paul Halsall, Internet Medieval
Source Book, October 1999
7. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the
United Kingdom.
8. Kay Allen, AG, "Re: John de Bohun m 1325 Alice de Arundel," July 28,
2002, GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com, confirming descent from Baldwin II
of Hainaut to Isabel de Conde, citing G. Andrews Moriarty [his writings,
currently in notebooks in the collection of the NEGHS].
9. Diane Shephard, "Ancestors of Catherine Baillon, Suzanne d`Ailleboust
& Marie Martin - #3," Sept 3, 2002, GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com, cites
ES (Europaische Stammtafeln), ancestry of Gossuin of Mons, and Anselm
of St. Pol, amongst others, discussed also with Gerard Poissonier.
* John P. Ravilious