Discussion:
Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of Hereford
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Jim Weber
2004-01-10 18:08:38 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup,

Hope the new year is finding you well.

CP VI:447-9 states that William FitzOsbern's 2nd wife was "Richilde,
widow of Baldwin (VI), Count of Flanders, and previously, as is
stated, of Herman, Count of Hainault, da. and h. of Renier, Count of
Mons, in Hainault."

This was changed by CP XIV:380 to read "Richilde, widow of Baldwin
(VI), COUNT OF FLANDERS, and previously, as is stated, of Herman,
COUNT OF HAINAULT, daughter and heir of the Count of Egisheim
[Alsace]."

However I was just going through some of Leo van de Pas' data base at
www.genealogics.org, and Leo, citing "Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A.
Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: II
5", has "Richilde, Heiress of Hainault" as daughter and sole heir of
Reginar V, Count of Hainault, by Matilde de Lorraine (AKA. Regnier V &
Mathilde de Verdun per AR). This would imply that her first husband
Herman Count of Hainault was count in right of his wife Richilde
(Leo/ES gives no ancestry or other info on Herman). This also fits
more closely with the original citation from CP (at least Mons is in
Hainault and the names are similar).

Does anyone know anything about these discrepancies?

Regards,

Jim Weber
Peter Stewart
2004-01-11 02:06:16 UTC
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Post by Jim Weber
Dear Newsgroup,
Hope the new year is finding you well.
CP VI:447-9 states that William FitzOsbern's 2nd wife was "Richilde,
widow of Baldwin (VI), Count of Flanders, and previously, as is
stated, of Herman, Count of Hainault, da. and h. of Renier, Count of
Mons, in Hainault."
This was changed by CP XIV:380 to read "Richilde, widow of Baldwin
(VI), COUNT OF FLANDERS, and previously, as is stated, of Herman,
COUNT OF HAINAULT, daughter and heir of the Count of Egisheim
[Alsace]."
However I was just going through some of Leo van de Pas' data base at
www.genealogics.org, and Leo, citing "Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A.
Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: II
5", has "Richilde, Heiress of Hainault" as daughter and sole heir of
Reginar V, Count of Hainault, by Matilde de Lorraine (AKA. Regnier V &
Mathilde de Verdun per AR). This would imply that her first husband
Herman Count of Hainault was count in right of his wife Richilde
(Leo/ES gives no ancestry or other info on Herman). This also fits
more closely with the original citation from CP (at least Mons is in
Hainault and the names are similar).
Does anyone know anything about these discrepancies?
The origin of Richilde has been debated for a long time & I'm not sure
that any consensus has been reached yet.

Hermann is usually thought to have been count of Hainault in his own
right, as son of Count Reginar V (died ca 1039/40) by Mathilde of
Verdun (usually said to have been daughter of Hermann, count of
Verdun, explaining this given name).

He was apparently father of two children, both without issue, a son
who becamse a bishop and a daughter who was a nun.

Richilde remarried in the early 1050s to Balduin VI of Flanders, and
the main complication sets in because offspring of this union
inherited Hainault, evidently through their mother and in preference
to any relatives of Hermann.

This could be out-of-date: according to my notes from many years ago,
when I last gave attention to it, the matter was exhaustively
discussed by Walter Mohr in 'Richilde vom Hennegau und Robert der
Friese: Thesen zu einer Neubewertung der Quellen' in _Revue belge de
philologie et d'histoire_ 58 (1980) & 59 (1981). Many university
libraries would hold this journal.

I expect a good deal of ink has flowed on the subject since then too
but, if so, happily it has by-passed me.

Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie
2004-01-11 03:12:59 UTC
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Post by Jim Weber
Dear Newsgroup,
Hope the new year is finding you well.
CP VI:447-9 states that William FitzOsbern's 2nd wife was "Richilde,
widow of Baldwin (VI), Count of Flanders, and previously, as is
stated, of Herman, Count of Hainault, da. and h. of Renier, Count of
Mons, in Hainault."
This was changed by CP XIV:380 to read "Richilde, widow of Baldwin
(VI), COUNT OF FLANDERS, and previously, as is stated, of Herman,
COUNT OF HAINAULT, daughter and heir of the Count of Egisheim
[Alsace]."
However I was just going through some of Leo van de Pas' data base at
www.genealogics.org, and Leo, citing "Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A.
Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: II
5", has "Richilde, Heiress of Hainault" as daughter and sole heir of
Reginar V, Count of Hainault, by Matilde de Lorraine (AKA. Regnier V &
Mathilde de Verdun per AR). This would imply that her first husband
Herman Count of Hainault was count in right of his wife Richilde
(Leo/ES gives no ancestry or other info on Herman). This also fits
more closely with the original citation from CP (at least Mons is in
Hainault and the names are similar).
Does anyone know anything about these discrepancies?
Yes. ES has misled Leo. Richilde was widow of Herman, Count of
Hainault, which Herman was son of Regnier. It was as widow of
Herman (who d.s.p.) that she brought Hainault to her second
husband, even though she had no blood claim to it. I don't known
where CP got the speculation that she was daughter of a Count of
Egisheim, but it is correct that whe was not daughter of the
prior Counts of Hainault.

taf
Leo van de Pas
2004-01-11 05:27:14 UTC
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Sadly, I was also misled by Turton, page 19. My guess is that CP got the
idea that Richilde was a Countess of Egisheim from Isenburg/Freytag von
Loringhoven. In Volume II , 1975 edition, Tafel 8 it shows how Reginar V is
father of Hermann who dies about 1051 and was married to Richilde Countess
von Egisheim.

Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, Fürstliche Häuser, 1961, page 53, also
makes Reginar V father of Hermann, Count in Hainault, died about 1051. This
Hermann married Richilde who died in Mechelen 15 March 1086 buried at
Hasnon. Richilde married 2ndly about 1055 Baudouin VI, Count of Flanders and
3rdly 1070 Guillaume/William de Crepon, Earl of Hereford.

What I do not understand is why Richilde was allowed to keep Hainault?
Reginar III, Count in Hainault, had two sons (at least) the elder Reginar IV
is father of Reginar V, the second son, Lambert I, Count of Louvain is
father of Lambert II who is father of Henry II of Louvain and Henry's male
line is still with us today in the House of Hessen. There was a male line
heir, why was the widow allowed to take Hainault with her?

Does anyone know? We are also back to square one, who are the parents of
Richilde?
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <***@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of Hereford
Post by Jim Weber
Dear Newsgroup,
Hope the new year is finding you well.
CP VI:447-9 states that William FitzOsbern's 2nd wife was "Richilde,
widow of Baldwin (VI), Count of Flanders, and previously, as is
stated, of Herman, Count of Hainault, da. and h. of Renier, Count of
Mons, in Hainault."
This was changed by CP XIV:380 to read "Richilde, widow of Baldwin
(VI), COUNT OF FLANDERS, and previously, as is stated, of Herman,
COUNT OF HAINAULT, daughter and heir of the Count of Egisheim
[Alsace]."
However I was just going through some of Leo van de Pas' data base at
www.genealogics.org, and Leo, citing "Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A.
Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: II
5", has "Richilde, Heiress of Hainault" as daughter and sole heir of
Reginar V, Count of Hainault, by Matilde de Lorraine (AKA. Regnier V &
Mathilde de Verdun per AR). This would imply that her first husband
Herman Count of Hainault was count in right of his wife Richilde
(Leo/ES gives no ancestry or other info on Herman). This also fits
more closely with the original citation from CP (at least Mons is in
Hainault and the names are similar).
Does anyone know anything about these discrepancies?
Yes. ES has misled Leo. Richilde was widow of Herman, Count of
Hainault, which Herman was son of Regnier. It was as widow of
Herman (who d.s.p.) that she brought Hainault to her second
husband, even though she had no blood claim to it. I don't known
where CP got the speculation that she was daughter of a Count of
Egisheim, but it is correct that whe was not daughter of the
prior Counts of Hainault.

taf
Jim Weber
2004-01-11 08:06:32 UTC
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Thanks Peter & Todd, for providing the information.

I also want to set the record straight concerning Leo van de Pas'
material. I have spent the better part of three weeks pouring through
his data, much of it based on ES, and I certainly appreciate his
meticulous record keeping. I don't have ready access to ES, and have
been greedily gobbling up the information I that find on his web site.

Good work Leo.

Sorry about misspelling "FitzOsbern" in the title.

Jim Weber
Thierry Stasser
2004-01-11 10:48:00 UTC
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sorry the answer is in French, but it is part of a paper on the Counts of
Hainaut which is written in French , so it would take too long to translate
it in English

Bien que certains chroniqueurs médiévaux fassent de Richilde, l¹épouse du
comte Herman, la fille héritière de Régnier V et son époux Herman un comte
d¹origine germanique.(Chron. Albrici, pp. 785, 789, 792; Gilles d¹Orval, MGH
SS XXV, p. 79), il est certain que Herman était l¹héritier de Régnier V
(Gislebert de Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense, éd. L. Vanderkindere, Bruxelles,
1904, p. 3; Lambert de Hersfeld, Annales Hersfeldenses, MGH SRG 1894, p.
125). Une charte datée des années 1024/1039 mentionne en effet Régnier V et
son fils Herman (Van Overstraeten, pp. 502-503). On ne connaît pas les
origines familiales de la comtesse. On sait qu¹elle était la nièce du pape
Léon IX (Flandria Generosa, MGH SS IX, p. 320: ...eiusdem Richildis avunculo
...) et qu¹elle était de sang impérial (Cont. Aquicinctina, p. 553:
Richildem quae erat de sanguine imperiali ...).
Le pape Léon IX était né Bruno d¹Eguisheim, fils du comte Hugues IV et
d¹Helvide (Wibert, Vita Leonis, éd. I. M. Watterich, Pontificum romanorum
vitae, t. 1er, Leipzig, 1862, p. 128). On lui connait avec certitude deux
frères, Gérard et Hugues (J. D. Schoepflin, Alsatia ... Diplomatica, t. 1er,
Mannheim, 1772, n° 207, p. 163), ainsi que plusieurs soeurs:
Gerberge, abbesse de Nuys (L. Viellard, Documents et mémoires pour servir à
l¹histoire du Territoire de Belfort, Besançon, 1884, p. 115);
l¹épouse du comte Adalbert de Calw (Annalista Saxo,p. 687);
peut être Hildegarde, mère de Louis de Mousson Montbéliard (F. Vollmer, Die
Etichonen. Ein Beitrag zur Frage der Kontinuität früher Adelsfamilien,
Studien und vorarbeiten zur geschichte des grossfrankische und frühdeutschen
Adels, éd. G. Tellenbach, Fribourg, 1957, p. 182; pour les sources voir
Viellard, pp. 12-13; Schoepflin, n° 680, p. 477).
Albert de Stade, Annales Stadenses, MGH SS XIV, p. 319, donne encore à Léon
IX une autre soeur en la personne de Gertrude, femme de Liudolphe de
Brunswick. Cette identification a cependant été mise en doute et on penche
plutôt à l¹identifier à la fille d¹un comte Egbert (H. Jakobs, Der Adel in
der Klosterreform von St. Blasien, Cologne-Graz, 1968, p. 204; E.
Hlawitschka, Untersuchungen zu den Thronwechseln der ersten Hälfte des 11
Jahrhunderts und zur Adelsgeschichte Süddeutschlands, Sigmaringen, 1987, pp.
144-148; P. Corbet, L¹autel portatif de la comtesse Gertrude de Brunswick,
Cahiers de Civilisation Médiévale, 34, 1991, p. 103) .
Compte tenu de l¹état de nos sources, il est impossible d¹attribuer la
paternité ou la maternité de Richilde à un plutôt qu¹à un autre des frères
et soeurs de Léon IX. H. Pirenne, Richilde, Biographie Nationale de
Belgique, 19, 1907, col. 294, suggère d¹en faire une fille de Roger, frère
d¹Arnoul de Valenciennes. Sur la comtesse Richilde, voir K. S. Nicholas,
Countesses as Rulers in Flanders, Aristocratic Women in Medieval France, éd.
T. Evergates, Philadelphia, 1999, pp. 115-117.
Richilde se remaria à Baudouin VI de Flandre (= Baudouin I de Hainaut) en
1051 selon les Ann. Elnonenses, p. 156; Ann. Laubienses, p. 20; Ann.
Leodienses, p. 20; Jacques de Guise , p. 188. Elle mourut en 1086 et fut
inhumée dans l¹église de Hasnon (Jacques de Guise, p. 195).
Post by Jim Weber
Dear Newsgroup,
Hope the new year is finding you well.
CP VI:447-9 states that William FitzOsbern's 2nd wife was "Richilde,
widow of Baldwin (VI), Count of Flanders, and previously, as is
stated, of Herman, Count of Hainault, da. and h. of Renier, Count of
Mons, in Hainault."
This was changed by CP XIV:380 to read "Richilde, widow of Baldwin
(VI), COUNT OF FLANDERS, and previously, as is stated, of Herman,
COUNT OF HAINAULT, daughter and heir of the Count of Egisheim
[Alsace]."
However I was just going through some of Leo van de Pas' data base at
www.genealogics.org, and Leo, citing "Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A.
Stargardt Verlag Marburg., Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, Reference: II
5", has "Richilde, Heiress of Hainault" as daughter and sole heir of
Reginar V, Count of Hainault, by Matilde de Lorraine (AKA. Regnier V &
Mathilde de Verdun per AR). This would imply that her first husband
Herman Count of Hainault was count in right of his wife Richilde
(Leo/ES gives no ancestry or other info on Herman). This also fits
more closely with the original citation from CP (at least Mons is in
Hainault and the names are similar).
Does anyone know anything about these discrepancies?
Regards,
Jim Weber
Chris Phillips
2004-01-11 11:12:27 UTC
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Post by Thierry Stasser
sorry the answer is in French, but it is part of a paper on the Counts of
Hainaut which is written in French , so it would take too long to translate
it in English
Many thanks for posting the detailed information on the question of
Richilde's parentage. It appears that the account in Complete Peerage
requires further amendment.

Could you give us a reference for the paper in which this discussion
appeared (if it comes from a published work, rather than one in
preparation)?

Chris Phillips
Leo van de Pas
2004-01-11 13:21:30 UTC
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Dear Chris,

Isenburg/Freytag von Loringhoven called her a Countess von Egisheim without
mentioning her parents. The Pope Leo IX detail could help us further.

In ES 1.2 Tafel 200B gives the Counts of Egisheim. Hugo VI Count von
Egisheim and his wife Heilwig von Dagsburg had several children, including
Bruno (Pope Leo IX) and Hildegard. Hildegard married Richwin Count in
Scarponnois (?) See Tafel 226 same volume.

In Tafel 226 we see that they start a new family and their son is Ludwig von
Mousson-en-Scarponnois in Mousson, Castellanus in Mömpelgard becomes Count
and marries Sophia von Oberlothringen.

There are not many helpful dates of birth in the beginning of this tree, but
if Richilde is a sister of Ludwig and she is daughter of
Ricuin/Richwin/(Reginar ?) and Hildegard von Egisheim, she is also a niece
of Pope Leo IX. Ludwig von Mousson (Mons ?) has seven children recorded, but
his parents have only him on this tree, perhaps this is where Richilde
belongs?

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Ivor West
2004-01-11 16:14:32 UTC
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Permalink
If Richilde was a sister of Sophie de Bar perhaps she is shown in P.
d'Hosier, "Tableau généalogique de la maison souveraine de Bar"
(Paris, 1910).

If she is, it would seem to create a consanguinity problem for Hetzilo
of Verdun being Regnier V's father-in-law. Wasn't he the son-in-law of
Ludwig II of Dagsburg, father of Heilwig of Dagsburg, mother of Leo
IX?

Ivor West
Post by Leo van de Pas
Dear Chris,
Isenburg/Freytag von Loringhoven called her a Countess von Egisheim without
mentioning her parents. The Pope Leo IX detail could help us
further.
Post by Leo van de Pas
In ES 1.2 Tafel 200B gives the Counts of Egisheim. Hugo VI Count von
Egisheim and his wife Heilwig von Dagsburg had several children, including
Bruno (Pope Leo IX) and Hildegard. Hildegard married Richwin Count in
Scarponnois (?) See Tafel 226 same volume.
In Tafel 226 we see that they start a new family and their son is Ludwig von
Mousson-en-Scarponnois in Mousson, Castellanus in Mömpelgard becomes Count
and marries Sophia von Oberlothringen.
There are not many helpful dates of birth in the beginning of this tree, but
if Richilde is a sister of Ludwig and she is daughter of
Ricuin/Richwin/(Reginar ?) and Hildegard von Egisheim, she is also a niece
of Pope Leo IX. Ludwig von Mousson (Mons ?) has seven children
recorded, but
Post by Leo van de Pas
his parents have only him on this tree, perhaps this is where
Richilde
Post by Leo van de Pas
belongs?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Ivor West
2004-01-11 18:25:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
For "sister" read "sister-in-law".
Post by Ivor West
If Richilde was a sister of Sophie de Bar perhaps she is shown in P.
d'Hosier, "Tableau généalogique de la maison souveraine de Bar"
(Paris, 1910).
If she is, it would seem to create a consanguinity problem for
Hetzilo
Post by Ivor West
of Verdun being Regnier V's father-in-law. Wasn't he the son-in-law of
Ludwig II of Dagsburg, father of Heilwig of Dagsburg, mother of Leo
IX?
Ivor West
John Ravilious
2004-01-15 20:35:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Thursday, 15 January, 2004


Dear Leo (et al.),

I think you suggestion as to the possibility of Richilda being of
the family of Ludwig von Mousson has much to commend it. In addition
to linking her to Pope Leo IX (from contemporaneous records), this
also gives her a descent from Richilde, wife of Dietrich I of Upper
Lorraine (see the AT below, #13 - Richilda and her theorized brother
Dietrich, Count of Bar are at generation #1A & B). By this
reconstruction, Richilda of Hainaut would be great-granddaughter of
Dietrich I and his wife Richilde.

Incidentally, this also provides a number of Carolingian descents
for Richilda of Hainault (IF, and only if, this is valid).

See how this looks, and let me know of any issues, etc.

Cheers,

John

________________________________________________


1a Dietrich of Bar.
died in 1105.[1]
Occupation: Graf von Altkirch under Pfirt; Count of Bar.

Dietrich married Ermentrude de Montbeliard.


1b CONJECTURED:
Richilda 'of Hainaut'
' Richeldis comitissa ', founded the abbey of Saint-Denis en
Broqueroie,
1081 together with her son Count Baldwin [ Cartulaire de
l&#8217;abbaye de
Saint-Denis en Broqueroie, fol. 10, verso]

~ held by some to have been widow of the previous Count of
Hainault:
cf. Thierry Stasser and Todd Farmerie, " Re: Richilde, wife of
William
FitzOsber, Earl of Hereford ", SGM, 11 Jan 2004

she m. 1stly Hermann, Count of Hainault
2ndly Baldwin VI, Count of Flanders (d. 1070)


2 Ludwig von Altkirch.
died ca 1075.[1]
Occupation: Graf von Altkirch und Pfirt.

Count of Mousson, Altkirch and Pfirt

cf. ES 1.2 Tafel 200B[2] as to his parentage

Ludwig married Sophia of Upper Lorraine[1].


3 Sophia of Upper Lorraine.[1]
died on 21 Jan 1093.[3]
Occupation: Countess of Bar.

heiress of Bar[1]


4 Richwin von Altkirch.

Count Richwin (cf. ES 1.2 Tafel 200B[2] )

Richwin married Hildegarde of Egisheim.


5 Hildegarde of Egisheim.

cf. ES 1.2 Tafel 200B[2]


6 Friedrich II of Upper Lorraine.
died bef 12 Apr 1032.[3],[4]
Occupation: Duke of Upper Lorraine and Count of Bar.

Count of Bar
created Duke of Upper Lorraine 18 May 978[3]

'Liutharingorum dux Fridericus' [Gesta Chuonradi II imperatoris,
Capitulum I][5]

supporter of Conrad 'junior' [of Burgundy] for the German throne,
1024 [Gesta Chuonradi Cap. II][5]

Friedrich II married Matilda of Swabia.


7 Matilda of Swabia.
Born ca 0988.[4]
died on 29 Jun 1031, she was 43.[4]

she m. 1stly Conrad of Carinthia,
2ndly Frederick of Lorraine,
3rdly Esiko von Ballenstedt

cf. ES I Tafel 9[4]]


10 Hugh VI of Egisheim. Occupation: count of Egisheim.

count of Egisheim
identified as a cousin of Emperor Conrad II:
'...Hugonis comitis, qui erat consanguineus imperatoris,...'
Gesta Chuonradi II imperatoris, Capitulum XIX[5]

cf. ES 1.2 Tafel 200B[2]

Hugh VI married Helvide of Dagsburg[6],[2].


11 Helvide of Dagsburg.[6],[2]

cf. ES 1.2 Tafel 200B[2]


12 Dietrich I of Upper Lorraine.
Occupation: Duke of Upper Lorraine and Count of Bar.

Dietrich I married Richilde.


13 Richilde.

parentage unknown[3]


14 Hermann II of Swabia.
died bef 4 May 1003.[7],[4]
Occupation: Duke of Swabia.

Duke of Swabia 997-1003

'..Herimannus dux Alamanniae,..' father of Gisela (empress and wife
of Conrad II). Gesta Chuonradi II imperatoris, Capitulum IV[5]

cf. ES I Tafel 9[4]

ca 0986 Hermann II married Gerberga of Burgundy.[4]


15 Gerberga of Burgundy.
Born in 0965.[7]
died on 7 Jul 1019, she was 54.[7],[4]

'...Kerbirga filia Chuonradi regis de Burgundia..', mother of
Gisela (empress and wife of Conrad II). Gesta Chuonradi II
imperatoris,
Capitulum IV[5]

cf. ES I Tafel 9[4]]


1. Paul Theroff, "House of Bar," Paul Theroff's Dynastic Genealogy
Files,
worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/theroff/bar.txt
2. Leo van de Pas, "Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of
Hereford,"
Jan 11, 2004, paper copy: library of John Ravilious, cites ES 1.2
Tafel 200B
and Tafel 226, email ***@netspeed.com.au.
3. Peter Stewart, "RE: AR7 Misprint?," Jan 21, 2003, email,
***@aol.com
(paper copy: library of John Ravilious, cites Michel Parisse, 'La
généalogie
de la Maison d'Ardenne', _Publications de la Section historique de
l'Institut
Grand-Ducal de Luxembourg_ 95 (1981).
4. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge," [ "
European
Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of European States, New
Series " ],
Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio Klostermann, 1998 [4th series], Band
I.1
[Tafel 3 - Die Arnulfinger -751-771 Konige der Franken ], First
series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by Frank,
Baron
Freytag von Loringhoven.
5. "Gesta Chuonradi II imperatoris," Wiponis Gesta Chuonradi II
ceteraque quae
supersunt opera, ed. H. Bresslau, Hannover 1878/1915, Bibliotheca
Augustana
site :
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost11/Wipo/wip_vit0.html
chronicle of the reign of Conrad II (1027-1039) and Henry III
(1039-1056).
6. Thierry Stasser, "Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of
Hereford,"
Jan 11, 2004, paper copy: library of John Ravilious, cites (Van
Overstraeten,
pp. 502-503) and other sources, English extract by Todd A.
Farmerie.
7. Frederick L. Weis (add/corr, Walter L Sheppard Jr.), "Ancestral
Roots of
Certain American Colonists," Baltimore: Genealogical Pub. Co.,
connection of
Isabel de Condet and Hugh Bardolf, as cited by E. Mann, Line
132D-27,-28 in
AR7, also, Descendants of Henry I of Germany (10/30/98), Line 157
(Gerberga
of Burgundy to Emperor Henry III).
Post by Leo van de Pas
Dear Chris,
Isenburg/Freytag von Loringhoven called her a Countess von Egisheim without
mentioning her parents. The Pope Leo IX detail could help us further.
In ES 1.2 Tafel 200B gives the Counts of Egisheim. Hugo VI Count von
Egisheim and his wife Heilwig von Dagsburg had several children, including
Bruno (Pope Leo IX) and Hildegard. Hildegard married Richwin Count in
Scarponnois (?) See Tafel 226 same volume.
In Tafel 226 we see that they start a new family and their son is Ludwig von
Mousson-en-Scarponnois in Mousson, Castellanus in Mömpelgard becomes Count
and marries Sophia von Oberlothringen.
There are not many helpful dates of birth in the beginning of this tree, but
if Richilde is a sister of Ludwig and she is daughter of
Ricuin/Richwin/(Reginar ?) and Hildegard von Egisheim, she is also a niece
of Pope Leo IX. Ludwig von Mousson (Mons ?) has seven children recorded, but
his parents have only him on this tree, perhaps this is where Richilde
belongs?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Todd A. Farmerie
2004-01-11 16:30:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Thierry Stasser
sorry the answer is in French, but it is part of a paper on the Counts of
Hainaut which is written in French , so it would take too long to translate
it in English
No problem - I will just summarize for the English-only crowd.
Post by Thierry Stasser
Bien que certains chroniqueurs médiévaux fassent de Richilde, l¹épouse du
comte Herman, la fille héritière de Régnier V et son époux Herman un comte
d¹origine germanique.(Chron. Albrici, pp. 785, 789, 792; Gilles d¹Orval, MGH
SS XXV, p. 79),
While some medieval chroniclers make Richilde daughter of Regnier
and her husband Herman a germanic count . . .
Post by Thierry Stasser
il est certain que Herman était l¹héritier de Régnier V
(Gislebert de Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense, éd. L. Vanderkindere, Bruxelles,
1904, p. 3; Lambert de Hersfeld, Annales Hersfeldenses, MGH SRG 1894, p.
125).
it is clear that Herman was Regnier's heir.
Post by Thierry Stasser
Une charte datée des années 1024/1039 mentionne en effet Régnier V et
son fils Herman (Van Overstraeten, pp. 502-503).
A charter names Regnier and his son Herman.
Post by Thierry Stasser
On ne connaît pas les
origines familiales de la comtesse. On sait qu¹elle était la nièce du pape
Léon IX (Flandria Generosa, MGH SS IX, p. 320: ...eiusdem Richildis avunculo
Richildem quae erat de sanguine imperiali ...).
As to Richilde, she was niece of Pope Leo IX, and of imperial blood.
Post by Thierry Stasser
Le pape Léon IX était né Bruno d¹Eguisheim, fils du comte Hugues IV et
d¹Helvide (Wibert, Vita Leonis, éd. I. M. Watterich, Pontificum romanorum
vitae, t. 1er, Leipzig, 1862, p. 128).
Leo IX was born Bruno d'Eguisheim, son of Count Hugh IV and Helvide.
Post by Thierry Stasser
On lui connait avec certitude deux
frères, Gérard et Hugues (J. D. Schoepflin, Alsatia ... Diplomatica, t. 1er,
Gerberge, abbesse de Nuys (L. Viellard, Documents et mémoires pour servir à
l¹histoire du Territoire de Belfort, Besançon, 1884, p. 115);
l¹épouse du comte Adalbert de Calw (Annalista Saxo,p. 687);
peut être Hildegarde, mère de Louis de Mousson Montbéliard (F. Vollmer, Die
Etichonen. Ein Beitrag zur Frage der Kontinuität früher Adelsfamilien,
Studien und vorarbeiten zur geschichte des grossfrankische und frühdeutschen
Adels, éd. G. Tellenbach, Fribourg, 1957, p. 182; pour les sources voir
Viellard, pp. 12-13; Schoepflin, n° 680, p. 477).
Gerberge, Abbess of Nuys; the wife of Adelbert de Calw; and
Hildegarde, mother of Louis de Mousson-Montbeliard.
Post by Thierry Stasser
Albert de Stade, Annales Stadenses, MGH SS XIV, p. 319, donne encore à Léon
IX une autre soeur en la personne de Gertrude, femme de Liudolphe de
Brunswick. Cette identification a cependant été mise en doute et on penche
plutôt à l¹identifier à la fille d¹un comte Egbert (H. Jakobs, Der Adel in
der Klosterreform von St. Blasien, Cologne-Graz, 1968, p. 204; E.
Hlawitschka, Untersuchungen zu den Thronwechseln der ersten Hälfte des 11
Jahrhunderts und zur Adelsgeschichte Süddeutschlands, Sigmaringen, 1987, pp.
144-148; P. Corbet, L¹autel portatif de la comtesse Gertrude de Brunswick,
Cahiers de Civilisation Médiévale, 34, 1991, p. 103) .
Albert de Stade give another sister, Gertrude, daughter of
Liudolf of Brunswick, but this is doubtful, as she is identified
as daughter of a Count Egbert.
Post by Thierry Stasser
Compte tenu de l¹état de nos sources, il est impossible d¹attribuer la
paternité ou la maternité de Richilde à un plutôt qu¹à un autre des frères
et soeurs de Léon IX.
With the sources available, there is no reason to favor one
sibling over another as parent of Richilde.
Post by Thierry Stasser
H. Pirenne, Richilde, Biographie Nationale de
Belgique, 19, 1907, col. 294, suggère d¹en faire une fille de Roger, frère
d¹Arnoul de Valenciennes.
H. Pirenne suggested she was daughter of Roger, brother of Arnoul
de Valenciennes.
Post by Thierry Stasser
Sur la comtesse Richilde, voir K. S. Nicholas,
Countesses as Rulers in Flanders, Aristocratic Women in Medieval France, éd.
T. Evergates, Philadelphia, 1999, pp. 115-117.
See this source for details on Richilde.
Post by Thierry Stasser
Richilde se remaria à Baudouin VI de Flandre (= Baudouin I de Hainaut) en
1051 selon les Ann. Elnonenses, p. 156; Ann. Laubienses, p. 20; Ann.
Leodienses, p. 20; Jacques de Guise , p. 188. Elle mourut en 1086 et fut
inhumée dans l¹église de Hasnon (Jacques de Guise, p. 195).
She remarried Baldwin VI of Flanders (I of Hainaut) in 1051 and
died 1086, buried at Hasnon.

taf
Terry Mair
2004-01-12 04:53:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
WOW way shorter in English! ;-)
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <***@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of Hereford
Post by Todd A. Farmerie
Post by Thierry Stasser
sorry the answer is in French, but it is part of a paper on the Counts of
Hainaut which is written in French , so it would take too long to translate
it in English
No problem - I will just summarize for the English-only crowd.
Post by Thierry Stasser
Bien que certains chroniqueurs médiévaux fassent de Richilde, l¹épouse du
comte Herman, la fille héritière de Régnier V et son époux Herman un comte
d¹origine germanique.(Chron. Albrici, pp. 785, 789, 792; Gilles d¹Orval, MGH
SS XXV, p. 79),
While some medieval chroniclers make Richilde daughter of Regnier
and her husband Herman a germanic count . . .
Post by Thierry Stasser
il est certain que Herman était l¹héritier de Régnier V
(Gislebert de Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense, éd. L. Vanderkindere, Bruxelles,
1904, p. 3; Lambert de Hersfeld, Annales Hersfeldenses, MGH SRG 1894, p.
125).
it is clear that Herman was Regnier's heir.
Post by Thierry Stasser
Une charte datée des années 1024/1039 mentionne en effet Régnier V et
son fils Herman (Van Overstraeten, pp. 502-503).
A charter names Regnier and his son Herman.
Post by Thierry Stasser
On ne connaît pas les
origines familiales de la comtesse. On sait qu¹elle était la nièce du pape
Léon IX (Flandria Generosa, MGH SS IX, p. 320: ...eiusdem Richildis avunculo
Richildem quae erat de sanguine imperiali ...).
As to Richilde, she was niece of Pope Leo IX, and of imperial blood.
Post by Thierry Stasser
Le pape Léon IX était né Bruno d¹Eguisheim, fils du comte Hugues IV et
d¹Helvide (Wibert, Vita Leonis, éd. I. M. Watterich, Pontificum romanorum
vitae, t. 1er, Leipzig, 1862, p. 128).
Leo IX was born Bruno d'Eguisheim, son of Count Hugh IV and Helvide.
Post by Thierry Stasser
On lui connait avec certitude deux
frères, Gérard et Hugues (J. D. Schoepflin, Alsatia ... Diplomatica, t. 1er,
Gerberge, abbesse de Nuys (L. Viellard, Documents et mémoires pour servir à
l¹histoire du Territoire de Belfort, Besançon, 1884, p. 115);
l¹épouse du comte Adalbert de Calw (Annalista Saxo,p. 687);
peut être Hildegarde, mère de Louis de Mousson Montbéliard (F. Vollmer, Die
Etichonen. Ein Beitrag zur Frage der Kontinuität früher Adelsfamilien,
Studien und vorarbeiten zur geschichte des grossfrankische und frühdeutschen
Adels, éd. G. Tellenbach, Fribourg, 1957, p. 182; pour les sources voir
Viellard, pp. 12-13; Schoepflin, n° 680, p. 477).
Gerberge, Abbess of Nuys; the wife of Adelbert de Calw; and
Hildegarde, mother of Louis de Mousson-Montbeliard.
Post by Thierry Stasser
Albert de Stade, Annales Stadenses, MGH SS XIV, p. 319, donne encore à Léon
IX une autre soeur en la personne de Gertrude, femme de Liudolphe de
Brunswick. Cette identification a cependant été mise en doute et on penche
plutôt à l¹identifier à la fille d¹un comte Egbert (H. Jakobs, Der Adel in
der Klosterreform von St. Blasien, Cologne-Graz, 1968, p. 204; E.
Hlawitschka, Untersuchungen zu den Thronwechseln der ersten Hälfte des 11
Jahrhunderts und zur Adelsgeschichte Süddeutschlands, Sigmaringen, 1987, pp.
144-148; P. Corbet, L¹autel portatif de la comtesse Gertrude de Brunswick,
Cahiers de Civilisation Médiévale, 34, 1991, p. 103) .
Albert de Stade give another sister, Gertrude, daughter of
Liudolf of Brunswick, but this is doubtful, as she is identified
as daughter of a Count Egbert.
Post by Thierry Stasser
Compte tenu de l¹état de nos sources, il est impossible d¹attribuer la
paternité ou la maternité de Richilde à un plutôt qu¹à un autre des frères
et soeurs de Léon IX.
With the sources available, there is no reason to favor one
sibling over another as parent of Richilde.
Post by Thierry Stasser
H. Pirenne, Richilde, Biographie Nationale de
Belgique, 19, 1907, col. 294, suggère d¹en faire une fille de Roger, frère
d¹Arnoul de Valenciennes.
H. Pirenne suggested she was daughter of Roger, brother of Arnoul
de Valenciennes.
Post by Thierry Stasser
Sur la comtesse Richilde, voir K. S. Nicholas,
Countesses as Rulers in Flanders, Aristocratic Women in Medieval France, éd.
T. Evergates, Philadelphia, 1999, pp. 115-117.
See this source for details on Richilde.
Post by Thierry Stasser
Richilde se remaria à Baudouin VI de Flandre (= Baudouin I de Hainaut) en
1051 selon les Ann. Elnonenses, p. 156; Ann. Laubienses, p. 20; Ann.
Leodienses, p. 20; Jacques de Guise , p. 188. Elle mourut en 1086 et fut
inhumée dans l¹église de Hasnon (Jacques de Guise, p. 195).
She remarried Baldwin VI of Flanders (I of Hainaut) in 1051 and
died 1086, buried at Hasnon.
taf
Peter Stewart
2004-01-19 00:38:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Thierry Stasser
sorry the answer is in French, but it is part of a paper on the Counts of
Hainaut which is written in French , so it would take too long to translate
it in English
Bien que certains chroniqueurs médiévaux fassent de Richilde, l¹épouse du
comte Herman, la fille héritière de Régnier V et son époux Herman un comte
d¹origine germanique.(Chron. Albrici, pp. 785, 789, 792; Gilles d¹Orval, MGH
SS XXV, p. 79), il est certain que Herman était l¹héritier de Régnier V
(Gislebert de Mons, Chronicon Hanoniense, éd. L. Vanderkindere, Bruxelles,
1904, p. 3; Lambert de Hersfeld, Annales Hersfeldenses, MGH SRG 1894, p.
125). Une charte datée des années 1024/1039 mentionne en effet Régnier V et
son fils Herman (Van Overstraeten, pp. 502-503). On ne connaît pas les
origines familiales de la comtesse. On sait qu¹elle était la nièce du pape
Léon IX (Flandria Generosa, MGH SS IX, p. 320: ...eiusdem Richildis avunculo
Richildem quae erat de sanguine imperiali ...).
Thierry, can you please specify under which year this mention of
Richilde appears in Cont. Aquicinctina?

I have only the MGH SS edition of Sigebert, which doesn't include a
page 553. Since this continuation covers from 1149 to 1237, it isn't
obvious where to look for the context of the phrase quoted.

By the way, I understand that a new fragment of this continuation is
to be published in 2004, in _Bulletin de la Commission Royale
d'Histoire_. I've no idea what it relates to, but I wonder if Thierry
or anyone else can tell us something about it.

Peter Stewart
Stewart Baldwin
2004-01-12 22:14:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Those interested in Richilde should also take a look at the archives
of this group for January 2000, in a thread entitled "Richilde de
Hainaut".

Stewart Baldwin
Chris Phillips
2004-01-14 21:59:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Stewart Baldwin
Those interested in Richilde should also take a look at the archives
of this group for January 2000, in a thread entitled "Richilde de
Hainaut".
Thanks for that pointer to the earlier discussion.

If I understand correctly, the suggestion that Richilde's father or mother was a daughter of Hugh IV, Count of Egisheim, was originally made by Vanderkindere in 1902, on the basis of the reference to Hugh's son, Pope Leo IX as Richilde's "avunculus". But apparently Pirenne argued that the relationship was really that Leo was a nephew of the grandmother of Richilde's husband Herman - which seems like a disturbingly convoluted interpretation of "avunculus" - and suggested an alternative relationship to the counts of Valenciennes, based on onomastic and other circumstantial evidence.

In any case there does seem to be a potential problem of consanguinity with the Vanderkindere version, as it would apparently make Richilde and Herman second cousins (as Ivor West also pointed out in the current thread). From the earlier posts, the relationship would be as follows:
[hope this will work if viewed in a monospaced font]

Louis II of Dagsburg
_________________________________|____________
| |
Daughter = Herman of Verdun Heilwig = Hugh IV of Egisheim
| |
| |
Matilda = Regnier V of Hainaut Son or daughter (sibling of Pope Leo IX)
|____________________________ |
| |
Herman = Richilde

However, I wonder whether there's scope for escaping the apparent consanguinity, and thus removing the difficulty with Vanderkindere's solution? Could Regnier, the elder Herman or Hugh have had other marriages, that would provide a way out of the problem?

Chris Phillips
Peter Stewart
2004-01-15 03:06:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"Chris Phillips" <***@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<bu4e6n$12r$***@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...

<snip>
Post by Chris Phillips
In any case there does seem to be a potential problem of consanguinity
with the Vanderkindere version, as it would apparently make Richilde and
Herman second cousins (as Ivor West also pointed out in the current
[hope this will work if viewed in a monospaced font]
Louis II of Dagsburg
|
| |
Daughter = Herman of Verdun Heilwig = Hugh IV of Egisheim
| |
| |
Matilda = Regnier V of Hainaut Son or daughter (sibling of Pope Leo IX)
| |
| |
Herman = Richilde
However, I wonder whether there's scope for escaping the apparent
consanguinity, and thus removing the difficulty with Vanderkindere's
solution? Could Regnier, the elder Herman or Hugh have had other
marriages, that would provide a way out of the problem?
I'm not sure that a way out needs to be sought: there was a reference
to this marriage being illicit in at least one entry of the
interdependent local annals - I think from memory this was in _Annales
Elnonenses_.

I will check later today and report if I can find it.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2004-01-15 08:52:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
I'm not sure that a way out needs to be sought: there was a reference
to this marriage being illicit in at least one entry of the
interdependent local annals - I think from memory this was in _Annales
Elnonenses_.
My memory was right for a change - according to 'Annales Elnonenses'_
[in _Les annales de Saint-Pierre de Gand et de Saint-Amand_, edited by
Philip Grierson (Brussels, 1937)] under 1050 (actually 1051):
"Balduinus interim iunior, Adele filius, consensu patris accepta
illicite uxore, castellum Monz obtinuit, post pasca. Nam eo anno in
kalendis Aprilis pasca Domini fuit" (Meanwhile Balduin the younger,
son of Adela, took an unlawful bride with his father's consent,
obtained the castle of Mons, after Easter. In that year Easter fell on
31 March). NB in MGH SS V p 13 Pertz had read "illicite" as "Iudita",
and Richilde has been given Judith as a second or alternative name by
some historians; but Grierson with the advantage of ultra-violet light
was able to correct the word.

This statement of the Elnon annals is interesting for several reasons.
First, the mention of obtaining Mons in the same sentence as the
marriage possibly accounts for the idea that Richilde may have been
daughter of Regnier, count of Mons, as in CP. However, annals kept at
Lobbes and Liège appear to put a different spin on this [see 'Annales
Laubienses' and 'Annales Leodienses' edited by Gerog Heinrich Pertz in
MGH SS IV p 20, parallel texts under 1051, respectively: "Balduinus
cum filio suo Balduino rebellat, invaso Haino" and "Balduinus cum
Balduino filio suo rebellat, invaso Monte Castriloci" (Balduin
rebelled with his son Balduin [the younger], by invading
Hainaut/Mons). 'Annales Elmarenses' (edited by Philip Grierson, op cit
p 92) add, under 1052: "Ricild, vidua Hermanni comitis, recepit in
castrum Montensum Baldwinum iuvenem comitem" (Richilde, widow of Count
Hermann, submitted to Count Balduin the younger in Mons castle). There
seems little reason to conclude that this was any more than the place
where they encountered each other & likely were married straight away,
one of the strongholds of the county Richilde was ruling after her
first husband's death.

Secondly, there is no mention in the local annals of any relationship
between Richilde and Pope Leo (Bruno of Egisheim), despite the very
next entry in 'Annales Elmarenses' recording his death. The counts of
Flanders had made a practice of marrying well-connected ladies, and a
niece of the reigning pope would surely have been an addition to their
family prestige that the local monks might have felt especially
noteworthy. I'm inclined to disagree on this point with Thierry, and
think Pirenne was probably closer to the mark about a stretched
interpretation of "avunculus" than was Vanderkindere in making this
relationship immediate.

Peter Stewart
Chris Phillips
2004-01-15 11:13:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
I'm not sure that a way out needs to be sought: there was a reference
to this marriage being illicit in at least one entry of the
interdependent local annals - I think from memory this was in _Annales
Elnonenses_.
My memory was right for a change - according to 'Annales Elnonenses'_
[in _Les annales de Saint-Pierre de Gand et de Saint-Amand_, edited by
"Balduinus interim iunior, Adele filius, consensu patris accepta
illicite uxore, castellum Monz obtinuit, post pasca. Nam eo anno in
kalendis Aprilis pasca Domini fuit" (Meanwhile Balduin the younger,
son of Adela, took an unlawful bride with his father's consent,
obtained the castle of Mons, after Easter. In that year Easter fell on
31 March). NB in MGH SS V p 13 Pertz had read "illicite" as "Iudita",
and Richilde has been given Judith as a second or alternative name by
some historians; but Grierson with the advantage of ultra-violet light
was able to correct the word.
Thanks for the further information. It was Richilde's first marriage, to
Herman, that was potentially consanguineous on the basis of Richilde being a
niece of Pope Leo IX. But this evidence about her marriage to Baldwin is
interesting. I wonder if the nature of Richilde's "unlawfulness" could
provide another clue?

Chris Phillips
Peter Stewart
2004-01-15 23:17:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Phillips
Thanks for the further information. It was Richilde's first marriage, to
Herman, that was potentially consanguineous on the basis of Richilde being a
niece of Pope Leo IX. But this evidence about her marriage to Baldwin is
interesting. I wonder if the nature of Richilde's "unlawfulness" could
provide another clue?
My apologies, Chris - this was doubly dense of me. I started out on
the wrong tack & in the course of the day I kept misremembering what
was in question.

As Thierry pointed out, the ancestry of Hermann is not certain enough
to tie him in with his wife as you proposed.

Also, the reason for Richilde's marriage to Balduin being called
unlawful was evidently _his_ consanguinity with Hermann, her previous
husband. This is stated in 'Flandria generosa' (in MGH SS IX), if I
can trust to my wretched memory. I'm unable to check at present, as
I'm even more distracted & hurried now than yesterday.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2004-01-15 10:20:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Balduinus interim iunior, Adele filius, consensu patris
accepta illicite uxore, castellum Monz obtinuit, post
pasca.....(Meanwhile Balduin the younger, son of Adela,
took an unlawful bride with his father's consent,
obtained the castle of Mons, after Easter
This was careless of me - I should have given a more literal
translation & then explained it more fully, viz: "Meanwhile Balduin
the younger, son of Adela, obtained the castrum of Mons by taking an
unlawful bride with his father's consent".

I interpret this, in the light of the other annals quoted earlier, as
meaning that Balduin took possession of Mons by surrender, in the
course of his invasion of Hainaut with his father, and then "obtained"
it for good by marrying Richilde.

The point I was trying to emphasise is that Richilde had been left, as
the dead count's widow, ruling the entire county of Hainaut at the
time, and the marriage brought to Balduin of Flanders more than just
Mons, so there is no good reason to suppose from this statement that
she was Regnier's daughter & only heiress of that place.

Peter Stewart
Thierry Stasser
2004-01-15 19:37:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Mathilde, wife of Hermann of Verdun, is of unknown origin. It has been
suggested that she was a daughter of Louis of Dasburg, but there is no
evidence of it. She is known through Hugues of Flavigny (MGH SS VIII, p
370). See M. Parisse, Généalogie de la Maison d'Ardenne, in La Maison
d'Ardenne. X-XI siècles. Actes des journées Lotharingiennes. Publications de
la section historique de l'Institut grand ducal de Luxembourg, vol 95, 1981,
p 30.


Thierry
Post by Stewart Baldwin
Those interested in Richilde should also take a look at the archives
of this group for January 2000, in a thread entitled "Richilde de
Hainaut".
Thanks for that pointer to the earlier discussion.

If I understand correctly, the suggestion that Richilde's father or mother
was a daughter of Hugh IV, Count of Egisheim, was originally made by
Vanderkindere in 1902, on the basis of the reference to Hugh's son, Pope Leo
IX as Richilde's "avunculus". But apparently Pirenne argued that the
relationship was really that Leo was a nephew of the grandmother of
Richilde's husband Herman - which seems like a disturbingly convoluted
interpretation of "avunculus" - and suggested an alternative relationship to
the counts of Valenciennes, based on onomastic and other circumstantial
evidence.

In any case there does seem to be a potential problem of consanguinity with
the Vanderkindere version, as it would apparently make Richilde and Herman
second cousins (as Ivor West also pointed out in the current thread). From
the earlier posts, the relationship would be as follows:
[hope this will work if viewed in a monospaced font]

Louis II of Dagsburg
_________________________________|____________
| |
Daughter = Herman of Verdun Heilwig = Hugh IV of Egisheim
| |
| |
Matilda = Regnier V of Hainaut Son or daughter (sibling
of Pope Leo IX)
|____________________________ |
| |
Herman = Richilde

However, I wonder whether there's scope for escaping the apparent
consanguinity, and thus removing the difficulty with Vanderkindere's
solution? Could Regnier, the elder Herman or Hugh have had other marriages,
that would provide a way out of the problem?

Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips
2004-01-16 09:53:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of HerefordMany thanks to
Thierry Stasser for the explanation of the apparent consanguinity
difficulty, and to Peter Stewart and John Ravilious for clarifying why
Richilde was "unlawful" as a wife of Baldwin.

Thanks also to John for his interesting conjecture, that would place
Richilde as a great niece of Pope Leo IX (on her father's side), and give
her a great grandmother named Richilde (on her mother's).

Chris Phillips
Andrew Lancaster
2020-06-20 18:29:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Stewart Baldwin
 
Post by Stewart Baldwin
Those interested
in Richilde should also take a look at the archives
Post by Stewart Baldwin
of this group for
January 2000, in a thread entitled "Richilde de
Post by Stewart Baldwin
Hainaut".
 
Thanks for that pointer to the earlier discussion.
 
If I understand correctly, the suggestion that
Richilde's father or mother was a daughter of Hugh IV, Count of Egisheim, was
originally made by Vanderkindere in 1902, on the basis of the reference to
Hugh's son, Pope Leo IX as Richilde's "avunculus". But apparently Pirenne argued
that the relationship was really that Leo was a nephew of the grandmother of
Richilde's husband Herman - which seems like a disturbingly convoluted
interpretation of "avunculus" - and suggested an alternative relationship to the
counts of Valenciennes, based on onomastic and other circumstantial evidence.
 
In any case there does seem to be a potential
problem of consanguinity with the Vanderkindere version, as it would apparently
make Richilde and Herman second cousins (as Ivor West also pointed out in the
current thread). From the earlier posts, the relationship would be as
[hope this will work if viewed in a monospaced
font]
 
                           
Louis II of Dagsburg
   
_________________________________|____________
  
|                                             
|
Daughter = Herman of
Verdun                   
Heilwig = Hugh IV of
Egisheim
        
|                                            
|
        
|                                             |
     
Matilda = Regnier V of Hainaut       
       Son or daughter (sibling of Pope Leo
IX)
             
|____________________________           
|
                                          
|           |
                                       
 Herman  =  Richilde
 
However, I wonder whether there's scope for
escaping the apparent consanguinity, and thus removing the difficulty with
Vanderkindere's solution? Could Regnier, the elder Herman or Hugh have had other
marriages, that would provide a way out of the problem?
 
Chris Phillips
Replying to a 2004 post. Here is an open question about the above. Is there really enough evidence to be worried, concerning Herman's wife being from th
taf
2020-06-20 23:43:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Replying to a 2004 post. Here is an open question about the above. Is there
really enough evidence to be worried, concerning Herman's wife being from
the family of the counts of Dagsburg?
Sorry, I am not really following what you are asking - Are you asking if there is enough evidence that Herman's wife was daughter of the counts that we should be worried about the predicted consanguinity, or are you asking if there is enough evidence for against the consanguinity that we should be worried about making her daughter of the counts of Dagsburg? By my reading both of these questions were answered in the thread, as 'no' the evidence for the relationship is wanting (from Thierry), and that to the contrary there is evidence suggesting there may have been some impediment (Peter). Or were you asking something different?

taf
Peter Stewart
2020-06-20 23:56:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Replying to a 2004 post. Here is an open question about the above. Is there
really enough evidence to be worried, concerning Herman's wife being from
the family of the counts of Dagsburg?
Sorry, I am not really following what you are asking - Are you asking if there is enough evidence that Herman's wife was daughter of the counts that we should be worried about the predicted consanguinity, or are you asking if there is enough evidence for against the consanguinity that we should be worried about making her daughter of the counts of Dagsburg? By my reading both of these questions were answered in the thread, as 'no' the evidence for the relationship is wanting (from Thierry), and that to the contrary there is evidence suggesting there may have been some impediment (Peter). Or were you asking something different?
It's doubly puzzling to me, since one of the proposals of Frans Van
Droogenbrock would make Richilde a second cousin of Herman through a
common male line quite apart from any "worry" about another relationship
between them through distaff lines.

Peter Stewart
Andrew Lancaster
2020-06-21 08:17:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by taf
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Replying to a 2004 post. Here is an open question about the above. Is there
really enough evidence to be worried, concerning Herman's wife being from
the family of the counts of Dagsburg?
Sorry, I am not really following what you are asking - Are you asking if there is enough evidence that Herman's wife was daughter of the counts that we should be worried about the predicted consanguinity, or are you asking if there is enough evidence for against the consanguinity that we should be worried about making her daughter of the counts of Dagsburg? By my reading both of these questions were answered in the thread, as 'no' the evidence for the relationship is wanting (from Thierry), and that to the contrary there is evidence suggesting there may have been some impediment (Peter). Or were you asking something different?
It's doubly puzzling to me, since one of the proposals of Frans Van
Droogenbrock would make Richilde a second cousin of Herman through a
common male line quite apart from any "worry" about another relationship
between them through distaff lines.
Peter Stewart
Yes Peter I am also wondering about that, but before raising that I was searching first to see if Van Droogenbroeck addresses it anywhere.
Peter Stewart
2020-06-21 08:28:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by taf
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Replying to a 2004 post. Here is an open question about the above. Is there
really enough evidence to be worried, concerning Herman's wife being from
the family of the counts of Dagsburg?
Sorry, I am not really following what you are asking - Are you asking if there is enough evidence that Herman's wife was daughter of the counts that we should be worried about the predicted consanguinity, or are you asking if there is enough evidence for against the consanguinity that we should be worried about making her daughter of the counts of Dagsburg? By my reading both of these questions were answered in the thread, as 'no' the evidence for the relationship is wanting (from Thierry), and that to the contrary there is evidence suggesting there may have been some impediment (Peter). Or were you asking something different?
It's doubly puzzling to me, since one of the proposals of Frans Van
Droogenbrock would make Richilde a second cousin of Herman through a
common male line quite apart from any "worry" about another relationship
between them through distaff lines.
Peter Stewart
Yes Peter I am also wondering about that, but before raising that I was searching first to see if Van Droogenbroeck addresses it anywhere.
My impression is that Van Droogenbroeck avoids addressing anything that
militates against his pet theories - to be frank, I stopped taking him
seriously in 'Markenruil Ename' when he translated the noun 'honori' as
an adverb (p. 56) and then twisted his speculations around concern over
consanguinity in what he calculated as the fifth to seventh degrees (pp.
60-61) regarding Adelheid of Orlamünde before blithely proposing both
fifth and seventh degree marriages for Richilde without any documented
proof.

Peter Stewart
Andrew Lancaster
2020-06-21 08:40:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by taf
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Replying to a 2004 post. Here is an open question about the above. Is there
really enough evidence to be worried, concerning Herman's wife being from
the family of the counts of Dagsburg?
Sorry, I am not really following what you are asking - Are you asking if there is enough evidence that Herman's wife was daughter of the counts that we should be worried about the predicted consanguinity, or are you asking if there is enough evidence for against the consanguinity that we should be worried about making her daughter of the counts of Dagsburg? By my reading both of these questions were answered in the thread, as 'no' the evidence for the relationship is wanting (from Thierry), and that to the contrary there is evidence suggesting there may have been some impediment (Peter). Or were you asking something different?
It's doubly puzzling to me, since one of the proposals of Frans Van
Droogenbrock would make Richilde a second cousin of Herman through a
common male line quite apart from any "worry" about another relationship
between them through distaff lines.
Peter Stewart
Yes Peter I am also wondering about that, but before raising that I was searching first to see if Van Droogenbroeck addresses it anywhere.
My impression is that Van Droogenbroeck avoids addressing anything that
militates against his pet theories - to be frank, I stopped taking him
seriously in 'Markenruil Ename' when he translated the noun 'honori' as
an adverb (p. 56) and then twisted his speculations around concern over
consanguinity in what he calculated as the fifth to seventh degrees (pp.
60-61) regarding Adelheid of Orlamünde before blithely proposing both
fifth and seventh degree marriages for Richilde without any documented
proof.
Peter Stewart
OK, thanks. I should perhaps mention that part of the context is that his proposals are apparently now creeping into Wikipedia articles. Hence the importance of checking if anyone has published anything in response. As far as I can see, no. This means it can't be used in Wikipedia as a new consensus, although I think his ideas can be listed among the older proposals of Vanderkindere and Pirenne.

In case anyone is wondering I do think there is a consensus that Vanderkindere was right in saying Richilde was not the daughter of Reginar V of Mons; but rather her first husband Herman was. Van Droogenbroeck, Kupper etc all still seem to accept that.

However I am now personally interested to learn about this Dagsburg connection which Chris Phillips mentioned. Any reading suggestions for that anyone?
Peter Stewart
2020-06-21 08:54:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by taf
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Replying to a 2004 post. Here is an open question about the above. Is there
really enough evidence to be worried, concerning Herman's wife being from
the family of the counts of Dagsburg?
Sorry, I am not really following what you are asking - Are you asking if there is enough evidence that Herman's wife was daughter of the counts that we should be worried about the predicted consanguinity, or are you asking if there is enough evidence for against the consanguinity that we should be worried about making her daughter of the counts of Dagsburg? By my reading both of these questions were answered in the thread, as 'no' the evidence for the relationship is wanting (from Thierry), and that to the contrary there is evidence suggesting there may have been some impediment (Peter). Or were you asking something different?
It's doubly puzzling to me, since one of the proposals of Frans Van
Droogenbrock would make Richilde a second cousin of Herman through a
common male line quite apart from any "worry" about another relationship
between them through distaff lines.
Peter Stewart
Yes Peter I am also wondering about that, but before raising that I was searching first to see if Van Droogenbroeck addresses it anywhere.
My impression is that Van Droogenbroeck avoids addressing anything that
militates against his pet theories - to be frank, I stopped taking him
seriously in 'Markenruil Ename' when he translated the noun 'honori' as
an adverb (p. 56) and then twisted his speculations around concern over
consanguinity in what he calculated as the fifth to seventh degrees (pp.
60-61) regarding Adelheid of Orlamünde before blithely proposing both
fifth and seventh degree marriages for Richilde without any documented
proof.
Peter Stewart
OK, thanks. I should perhaps mention that part of the context is that his proposals are apparently now creeping into Wikipedia articles. Hence the importance of checking if anyone has published anything in response. As far as I can see, no. This means it can't be used in Wikipedia as a new consensus, although I think his ideas can be listed among the older proposals of Vanderkindere and Pirenne.
In case anyone is wondering I do think there is a consensus that Vanderkindere was right in saying Richilde was not the daughter of Reginar V of Mons; but rather her first husband Herman was. Van Droogenbroeck, Kupper etc all still seem to accept that.
However I am now personally interested to learn about this Dagsburg connection which Chris Phillips mentioned. Any reading suggestions for that anyone?
The line given by Van Droogenbroeck from his Reinier Langhals of Louvain
(died 1039), purportedly the paternal grandfather of Richilde, is purely
conjectural and not well-supported by evidence or argument.

The family of Herman of Verdun's wife (the mother-in-law of Van
Droegenbroeck's Reinier V of Mons, who coincidentally died in 1039 -
though with the get-out of a question mark - i.e. the same year as his
alleged namesake first cousin of Louvain above) is unknown.

Peter Stewart
Andrew Lancaster
2020-06-21 09:51:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by taf
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Replying to a 2004 post. Here is an open question about the above. Is there
really enough evidence to be worried, concerning Herman's wife being from
the family of the counts of Dagsburg?
Sorry, I am not really following what you are asking - Are you asking if there is enough evidence that Herman's wife was daughter of the counts that we should be worried about the predicted consanguinity, or are you asking if there is enough evidence for against the consanguinity that we should be worried about making her daughter of the counts of Dagsburg? By my reading both of these questions were answered in the thread, as 'no' the evidence for the relationship is wanting (from Thierry), and that to the contrary there is evidence suggesting there may have been some impediment (Peter). Or were you asking something different?
It's doubly puzzling to me, since one of the proposals of Frans Van
Droogenbrock would make Richilde a second cousin of Herman through a
common male line quite apart from any "worry" about another relationship
between them through distaff lines.
Peter Stewart
Yes Peter I am also wondering about that, but before raising that I was searching first to see if Van Droogenbroeck addresses it anywhere.
My impression is that Van Droogenbroeck avoids addressing anything that
militates against his pet theories - to be frank, I stopped taking him
seriously in 'Markenruil Ename' when he translated the noun 'honori' as
an adverb (p. 56) and then twisted his speculations around concern over
consanguinity in what he calculated as the fifth to seventh degrees (pp.
60-61) regarding Adelheid of Orlamünde before blithely proposing both
fifth and seventh degree marriages for Richilde without any documented
proof.
Peter Stewart
OK, thanks. I should perhaps mention that part of the context is that his proposals are apparently now creeping into Wikipedia articles. Hence the importance of checking if anyone has published anything in response. As far as I can see, no. This means it can't be used in Wikipedia as a new consensus, although I think his ideas can be listed among the older proposals of Vanderkindere and Pirenne.
In case anyone is wondering I do think there is a consensus that Vanderkindere was right in saying Richilde was not the daughter of Reginar V of Mons; but rather her first husband Herman was. Van Droogenbroeck, Kupper etc all still seem to accept that.
However I am now personally interested to learn about this Dagsburg connection which Chris Phillips mentioned. Any reading suggestions for that anyone?
The line given by Van Droogenbroeck from his Reinier Langhals of Louvain
(died 1039), purportedly the paternal grandfather of Richilde, is purely
conjectural and not well-supported by evidence or argument.
The family of Herman of Verdun's wife (the mother-in-law of Van
Droegenbroeck's Reinier V of Mons, who coincidentally died in 1039 -
though with the get-out of a question mark - i.e. the same year as his
alleged namesake first cousin of Louvain above) is unknown.
Peter Stewart
Thanks. I wonder where Chris got that from. I do not much about them but I had the impression that the early Dagsburg counts were not easy to reconstruct before the line daughtered out.
Peter Stewart
2020-06-21 12:11:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Post by Peter Stewart
The family of Herman of Verdun's wife (the mother-in-law of Van
Droegenbroeck's Reinier V of Mons, who coincidentally died in 1039 -
though with the get-out of a question mark - i.e. the same year as his
alleged namesake first cousin of Louvain above) is unknown.
Peter Stewart
Thanks. I wonder where Chris got that from. I do not much about them but I had the impression that the early Dagsburg counts were not easy to reconstruct before the line daughtered out.
This connection apparently came from Heinrich Witte's 'Genealogische
Untersuchungen zur Geschichte Lothringens und des Westrich', part II
(1895) and ultimately from Alberic of Troisfontaines, who called Herman
of Verdun 'comes de Daburc' - from this, probably a simple error, Witte
supposed that Herman must have married an heiress of Dagsburg whom he
presumed to have been a second daughter of Louis and a sister of
Heilwig, heiress of Egisheim (wife of the Etichonid Hugo IV). The
trouble is that Herman's daughter Mathilde married Reginar V of Hainaut
(or Mons if preferred) and her descendants did not inherit Dagsburg,
which passed instead to the family of Heilwig along with Egisheim. There
is no evidence for a second daughter of Louis apart from this probable
error by Alberic.

Peter Stewart
Andrew Lancaster
2020-06-21 21:05:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Post by Peter Stewart
The family of Herman of Verdun's wife (the mother-in-law of Van
Droegenbroeck's Reinier V of Mons, who coincidentally died in 1039 -
though with the get-out of a question mark - i.e. the same year as his
alleged namesake first cousin of Louvain above) is unknown.
Peter Stewart
Thanks. I wonder where Chris got that from. I do not much about them but I had the impression that the early Dagsburg counts were not easy to reconstruct before the line daughtered out.
This connection apparently came from Heinrich Witte's 'Genealogische
Untersuchungen zur Geschichte Lothringens und des Westrich', part II
(1895) and ultimately from Alberic of Troisfontaines, who called Herman
of Verdun 'comes de Daburc' - from this, probably a simple error, Witte
supposed that Herman must have married an heiress of Dagsburg whom he
presumed to have been a second daughter of Louis and a sister of
Heilwig, heiress of Egisheim (wife of the Etichonid Hugo IV). The
trouble is that Herman's daughter Mathilde married Reginar V of Hainaut
(or Mons if preferred) and her descendants did not inherit Dagsburg,
which passed instead to the family of Heilwig along with Egisheim. There
is no evidence for a second daughter of Louis apart from this probable
error by Alberic.
Peter Stewart
Very interesting. Thanks.
Peter Stewart
2020-06-22 01:53:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
The subject line of this thread accepts - agreeing, incidentally, with
CP and Frans Van Droogenbroeck - that Richilde married (as her third
husband, his second wife) William fitz Osbern, earl of Hereford, who was
killed at the battle of Cassel in Flanders on 20 February 1071.

I had assumed that this oddity would have been discussed here before
now, but unless I am missing something it appears to have gone unquestioned.

The purported marriage of William and Richilde is not in the least
plausible to me, because the many contemporary sources that would surely
have reported such a marital alliance for the twice-widowed lady fail to
do so. The account derives mainly from William of Malmesbury, writing in
1124/25. He of course was not the sole recipient of information about
public events in Flanders more than 50 years earlier, including the
extraordinarily mismatched appointment of William fitz Osbern by
Richilde's second husband Balduin VI of Flanders as a co-guardian of
their sons along with a king of France who was the count's first cousin;
nor was he privy - as he implicitly represented himself - to the
personal motives of an amorous old man and an ambitious woman.

The story is in *Gesta regum Anglorum*, as translated in the Oxford
edition by Roger Mynors, Rodney Thomson & Michael Winterbottom (1998)
vol. 1 p. 475: "But to this record of successes fortune set a
discreditable end when, to satisfy his passion for a woman, the pillar
of that great kingdom, wise counsellor of both England and Normandy,
went off to Flanders and met his death in an ambush. For Baldwin the
elder ... Matilda's father, had two sons, Robert who during his father's
lifetime married the countess of Frisia and was nicknamed 'the Frisian',
and Baldwin, who ruled Flanders for some years after his father, and
died young. He left, by his wife Richildis, two children, Arnulf and
Baldwin, and appointed as their guardians Philip king of the French (his
mother was the king's aunt) and William Fitz Osbern. William gladly took
up the position in hopes, by undertaking to marry Richildis, of winning
a more distinguished name for himself. But she, with a woman's ambition,
was forming plans beyond her sex, and by exacting new taxes from the
people of the province she roused them to revolt. They sent a message
for Robert the Frisian, urging him to answer the appeal of his native
country and seize the reins of power, while they renounced any loyalty
to Arnulf, who was now called count. Nor indeed was there any lack of
support for the party of the ward. Thus Flanders was for some time a
prey to internal dissensions, and Fitz Osbern, who had surrendered
entirely to his passion for the woman, found this intolerable; in fact,
he got together a band of knights, and entered Flanders. There he was
warmly received at first by those whom he had come to protect, and in a
few days' time was riding confidently from one castle to another,
lightly armed and with few companions. Robert the Frisian on the other
hand, who did not fail to notice his folly, laid an ambush and caught
him off his guard. In vein he fought bravely; he and Robert's nephew
Arnulf were killed."

Another twist on the story was given in the 13th-century annals of
Winchester: according to this William the Conqueror, desiring a marriage
between Richilde and William fitz Osbern (described as the king's
nephew), is supposed to have gone to Flanders personally in 1070, along
with his French counterpart (Philippe I), in order to subdue Richilde
for his purpose either by love or by force majeure ("Hoc anno volens rex
comitissam Flandriæ nepoti suo Willelmo filio Osberni accipere, cum rege
Franciæ Flandriam venit, ut amore vel viribus sibi illam subiceret").
The outcome is not mentioned in this version of the story, perhaps taken
from William of Malmesbury but with the annalist failing to understand
that "the pillar of that great kingdom" referred not to the king but to
William fitz Osbern himself as governor of England. The legend that he
was newly married to Richilde when he was killed at Cassel was repeated,
and popularised among genealogists, by Jacques de Meyere in 1538
("Cecidit inter alios ... Guilelmus, Osbernius Normannus gente, nouus
Richildis maritus").

Peter Stewart
Andrew Lancaster
2020-06-22 06:00:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
The subject line of this thread accepts - agreeing, incidentally, with
CP and Frans Van Droogenbroeck - that Richilde married (as her third
husband, his second wife) William fitz Osbern, earl of Hereford, who was
killed at the battle of Cassel in Flanders on 20 February 1071.
I had assumed that this oddity would have been discussed here before
now, but unless I am missing something it appears to have gone unquestioned.
The purported marriage of William and Richilde is not in the least
plausible to me, because the many contemporary sources that would surely
have reported such a marital alliance for the twice-widowed lady fail to
do so. The account derives mainly from William of Malmesbury, writing in
1124/25. He of course was not the sole recipient of information about
public events in Flanders more than 50 years earlier, including the
extraordinarily mismatched appointment of William fitz Osbern by
Richilde's second husband Balduin VI of Flanders as a co-guardian of
their sons along with a king of France who was the count's first cousin;
nor was he privy - as he implicitly represented himself - to the
personal motives of an amorous old man and an ambitious woman.
The story is in *Gesta regum Anglorum*, as translated in the Oxford
edition by Roger Mynors, Rodney Thomson & Michael Winterbottom (1998)
vol. 1 p. 475: "But to this record of successes fortune set a
discreditable end when, to satisfy his passion for a woman, the pillar
of that great kingdom, wise counsellor of both England and Normandy,
went off to Flanders and met his death in an ambush. For Baldwin the
elder ... Matilda's father, had two sons, Robert who during his father's
lifetime married the countess of Frisia and was nicknamed 'the Frisian',
and Baldwin, who ruled Flanders for some years after his father, and
died young. He left, by his wife Richildis, two children, Arnulf and
Baldwin, and appointed as their guardians Philip king of the French (his
mother was the king's aunt) and William Fitz Osbern. William gladly took
up the position in hopes, by undertaking to marry Richildis, of winning
a more distinguished name for himself. But she, with a woman's ambition,
was forming plans beyond her sex, and by exacting new taxes from the
people of the province she roused them to revolt. They sent a message
for Robert the Frisian, urging him to answer the appeal of his native
country and seize the reins of power, while they renounced any loyalty
to Arnulf, who was now called count. Nor indeed was there any lack of
support for the party of the ward. Thus Flanders was for some time a
prey to internal dissensions, and Fitz Osbern, who had surrendered
entirely to his passion for the woman, found this intolerable; in fact,
he got together a band of knights, and entered Flanders. There he was
warmly received at first by those whom he had come to protect, and in a
few days' time was riding confidently from one castle to another,
lightly armed and with few companions. Robert the Frisian on the other
hand, who did not fail to notice his folly, laid an ambush and caught
him off his guard. In vein he fought bravely; he and Robert's nephew
Arnulf were killed."
Another twist on the story was given in the 13th-century annals of
Winchester: according to this William the Conqueror, desiring a marriage
between Richilde and William fitz Osbern (described as the king's
nephew), is supposed to have gone to Flanders personally in 1070, along
with his French counterpart (Philippe I), in order to subdue Richilde
for his purpose either by love or by force majeure ("Hoc anno volens rex
comitissam Flandriæ nepoti suo Willelmo filio Osberni accipere, cum rege
Franciæ Flandriam venit, ut amore vel viribus sibi illam subiceret").
The outcome is not mentioned in this version of the story, perhaps taken
from William of Malmesbury but with the annalist failing to understand
that "the pillar of that great kingdom" referred not to the king but to
William fitz Osbern himself as governor of England. The legend that he
was newly married to Richilde when he was killed at Cassel was repeated,
and popularised among genealogists, by Jacques de Meyere in 1538
("Cecidit inter alios ... Guilelmus, Osbernius Normannus gente, nouus
Richildis maritus").
Peter Stewart
Interesting point. By your reading, does William of Malmesbury really say they married, or only that William had it as an aim?

Andrew
Peter Stewart
2020-06-22 06:30:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Post by Peter Stewart
The subject line of this thread accepts - agreeing, incidentally, with
CP and Frans Van Droogenbroeck - that Richilde married (as her third
husband, his second wife) William fitz Osbern, earl of Hereford, who was
killed at the battle of Cassel in Flanders on 20 February 1071.
I had assumed that this oddity would have been discussed here before
now, but unless I am missing something it appears to have gone unquestioned.
The purported marriage of William and Richilde is not in the least
plausible to me, because the many contemporary sources that would surely
have reported such a marital alliance for the twice-widowed lady fail to
do so. The account derives mainly from William of Malmesbury, writing in
1124/25. He of course was not the sole recipient of information about
public events in Flanders more than 50 years earlier, including the
extraordinarily mismatched appointment of William fitz Osbern by
Richilde's second husband Balduin VI of Flanders as a co-guardian of
their sons along with a king of France who was the count's first cousin;
nor was he privy - as he implicitly represented himself - to the
personal motives of an amorous old man and an ambitious woman.
The story is in *Gesta regum Anglorum*, as translated in the Oxford
edition by Roger Mynors, Rodney Thomson & Michael Winterbottom (1998)
vol. 1 p. 475: "But to this record of successes fortune set a
discreditable end when, to satisfy his passion for a woman, the pillar
of that great kingdom, wise counsellor of both England and Normandy,
went off to Flanders and met his death in an ambush. For Baldwin the
elder ... Matilda's father, had two sons, Robert who during his father's
lifetime married the countess of Frisia and was nicknamed 'the Frisian',
and Baldwin, who ruled Flanders for some years after his father, and
died young. He left, by his wife Richildis, two children, Arnulf and
Baldwin, and appointed as their guardians Philip king of the French (his
mother was the king's aunt) and William Fitz Osbern. William gladly took
up the position in hopes, by undertaking to marry Richildis, of winning
a more distinguished name for himself. But she, with a woman's ambition,
was forming plans beyond her sex, and by exacting new taxes from the
people of the province she roused them to revolt. They sent a message
for Robert the Frisian, urging him to answer the appeal of his native
country and seize the reins of power, while they renounced any loyalty
to Arnulf, who was now called count. Nor indeed was there any lack of
support for the party of the ward. Thus Flanders was for some time a
prey to internal dissensions, and Fitz Osbern, who had surrendered
entirely to his passion for the woman, found this intolerable; in fact,
he got together a band of knights, and entered Flanders. There he was
warmly received at first by those whom he had come to protect, and in a
few days' time was riding confidently from one castle to another,
lightly armed and with few companions. Robert the Frisian on the other
hand, who did not fail to notice his folly, laid an ambush and caught
him off his guard. In vein he fought bravely; he and Robert's nephew
Arnulf were killed."
Another twist on the story was given in the 13th-century annals of
Winchester: according to this William the Conqueror, desiring a marriage
between Richilde and William fitz Osbern (described as the king's
nephew), is supposed to have gone to Flanders personally in 1070, along
with his French counterpart (Philippe I), in order to subdue Richilde
for his purpose either by love or by force majeure ("Hoc anno volens rex
comitissam Flandriæ nepoti suo Willelmo filio Osberni accipere, cum rege
Franciæ Flandriam venit, ut amore vel viribus sibi illam subiceret").
The outcome is not mentioned in this version of the story, perhaps taken
from William of Malmesbury but with the annalist failing to understand
that "the pillar of that great kingdom" referred not to the king but to
William fitz Osbern himself as governor of England. The legend that he
was newly married to Richilde when he was killed at Cassel was repeated,
and popularised among genealogists, by Jacques de Meyere in 1538
("Cecidit inter alios ... Guilelmus, Osbernius Normannus gente, nouus
Richildis maritus").
Peter Stewart
Interesting point. By your reading, does William of Malmesbury really say they married, or only that William had it as an aim?
Marriage was not explicitly asserted by William of Malmesbury, and he
could be read as meaning only betrothal - but has not been. The closest
he came to a plain statement was: "Libens id munus suscepit Willelmus,
ut federatis cum Richelde nuptiis altius nomen sibi pararet" (in the
translation quoted above: "William gladly took up the position [as
co-guardian to her sons] in hopes, by undertaking to marry Richildis, of
winning a more distinguished name for himself").

This sentence as much as any gives away the unlikelihood of the whole
story - as if William fitz Osbern, having governed England and acted
alongside the king of France as guardian to the sons of a count of
Flanders, would still have had hopes of adding lustre to his reputation.

The idea that Philippe I would have shared guardianship of his cousin's
sons with the subject of another king is preposterous enough without
suggesting that the man was somehow still on the make.

Peter Stewart

Andrew Lancaster
2020-06-21 08:24:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Replying to a 2004 post. Here is an open question about the above. Is there
really enough evidence to be worried, concerning Herman's wife being from
the family of the counts of Dagsburg?
Sorry, I am not really following what you are asking - Are you asking if there is enough evidence that Herman's wife was daughter of the counts that we should be worried about the predicted consanguinity, or are you asking if there is enough evidence for against the consanguinity that we should be worried about making her daughter of the counts of Dagsburg? By my reading both of these questions were answered in the thread, as 'no' the evidence for the relationship is wanting (from Thierry), and that to the contrary there is evidence suggesting there may have been some impediment (Peter). Or were you asking something different?
taf
I was in this case only responding to the very old point made by Chris Philips. I realize there are other issues which could be discussed, but what drew my attention was the idea that Herman "of Verdun" (in the original post) was married to a daughter of Louis II of Dagsburg.

Short version of the question: Is that marriage really a confidently known one?
taf
2020-06-21 13:19:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Post by taf
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Replying to a 2004 post. Here is an open question about the above. Is there
really enough evidence to be worried, concerning Herman's wife being from
the family of the counts of Dagsburg?
Sorry, I am not really following what you are asking - Are you asking if there is enough evidence that Herman's wife was daughter of the counts that we should be worried about the predicted consanguinity, or are you asking if there is enough evidence for against the consanguinity that we should be worried about making her daughter of the counts of Dagsburg? By my reading both of these questions were answered in the thread, as 'no' the evidence for the relationship is wanting (from Thierry), and that to the contrary there is evidence suggesting there may have been some impediment (Peter). Or were you asking something different?
taf
I was in this case only responding to the very old point made by Chris Philips. I realize there are other issues which could be discussed, but what drew my attention was the idea that Herman "of Verdun" (in the original post) was married to a daughter of Louis II of Dagsburg.
Short version of the question: Is that marriage really a confidently known one?
Thierry said no, that the wife of Herman is of unknown origin, just a little farther down the thread. He would know.

taf
T***@aol.com
2004-01-16 02:25:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Thursday, 15 January, 2004


Dear Peter, Chris, et al.,

I show the problem relationship between Hermann of Hainault and
Baldwin VI of Flanders (giving rise to the 'illicit' relationship
between Richilda and Baldwin) as being in the 3rd degree of affinity,
to-wit:

Hugh 'Capet' = Adela of
K of France 987-996 I Aquitaine
__________________________I______________________
I I
Robert II = Constance Reginar IV = Hawise/Hedwig
of France I of Arles C of Hainault I of France
I I
I I
Baldwin V = Adela of Reginar V = NN
of Flanders I France of Hainault I
I I
I I
2) Baldwin VI = Richilda = 1) Hermann of
of Flanders I Hainault
I
V


If my conjectured AT for Richilda (as daughter of Ludwig von
Altkirch/of Mousson and his wife Sophia of Bar/Upper Lorraine), given
in an earlier post today, is correct, both Hermann of Hainault and
Baldwin VI of Flanders were in fact related to Richilda - in the 4th
and 5th degrees. This would be by virtue of their common descent from
Hugh of Paris (d. 16 Jun 956) and his wife Edgiva/Hedwiga (d. 965).

Cheers,

John
T***@aol.com
2004-01-16 02:38:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Thursday, 15 January, 2004


Hello All,

Mea culpa (it's too late to be posting...accurately).

The relationship, between Baldwin VI of Flanders and
Hermann of Hainault, was one of *consanguinity* [not
affinity].

This gave rise to the problem relationship between
Richilda, Hermann's widow, and Baldwin VI of Flanders - THAT
was one of *affinity*.

Hope that solves that problem - for those who believe
these individuals existed, anyway (this was the Dark Ages,
or Kasparov's Konundrum, after all). <g>

Cheers,

John
T***@aol.com
2004-01-19 03:11:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Sunday, 18 January, 2004


Dear Peter, Thierry, et al.,

Two quick observations on the subject of Richilda's alleged ancestry.

1. In reviewing some details concerning Richilda's immediate
descendants (see 3-generation pedigree below), the namesake
for each child seems in most cases readily apparent (esp.
names such as Baldwin, Richilda, Alix/Aleidis, Henry). Two
of her grandchildren for whom a namesake cannot be readily
identified are children of her son Baldwin II: Louis, and
Simon (the latter a canon at Liege).

The source for Simon (outside of a possible religious, non-family
derivation) is uncertain. A convenient (if unproven) source for
Louis' name would be provided, if in fact Richilda's father was
Louis/Ludwig of Mousson (as originally suggested in this thread,
thanks to Leo).

2. Thierry had previously cited a source which not only provided
evidence for Richilda's blood relationship to Pope Leo IX,
"[who was] the uncle of Richilda" (Flandria Generosa, MGH SS IX,
p. 320: "...eiusdem Richildis avunculo"), but also indicated a
less specific relationship to the 'imperial' family, referring
to Richilda, "who was of the imperial blood" (Cont. Aquicinctina,
p. 553: "Richildem quae erat de sanguine imperiali ...").

It is not certain what is meant by this, but it can be
reasonably presumed that a descent from either a Carolingian
subsequent (Holy Roman) Emperor was intended. The AT given in
an earlier post in this thread showed that, if Richilda was
the daughter of Louis of Mousson and his wife Sophia of
Upper Lorraine (heiress of Bar), she would then have been the
great-granddaughter of Hermann II, Duke of Swabia (d. 1003)
and his wife Gerberga, daughter of Conrad III 'the Pacific'
of Burgundy (d. 993). This relationship would provide lines
of descent from Otto I 'the Great (one), Henry 'the Fowler
(two), and also the Carolingian Louis IV 'd'Outremer', King
of France (one).

Even closer, as a 'family' relationship, Sophia of Upper
Lorraine was a first cousin of the Emperor Henry III (her
mother Matilda of Swabia was sister to Gisela, wife of
Conrad II and mother of Henry III). Such a close kinship
for Richilda (if a daughter of Sophia) would not have
escaped notice.

Cheers,

John *




1 Baldwin VI of Flanders
----------------------------------------
Death: 1070[1]
Occ: Count of Flanders 1067-1070, Count of Hainault
Father: Baldwin V 'of Lille' of Flanders (-1067)
Mother: Adela of France (-1097)

Count of Flanders 1067-1070
Count of Hainault (as Baldwin I)

re: his wife:

Richilda, countess of Hainault (widow of Hermann of Hainault)

' Richeldis comitissa ', founded the abbey of Saint-Denis en
Broqueroie, 1081 together with her son Count Baldwin
[ Cartulaire de l’abbaye de Saint-Denis en Broqueroie, fol. 10, verso][2]

Spouse: Richilda of Hainault
Death: 1086[3]
Marr: 1051[4]

Children: Arnulf (-1071)
Baldwin II (-1098)
Agnes


1.1 Arnulf of Hainault
----------------------------------------
Death: 22 Feb 1071, near Cassel (d.s.p.)[4]
Occ: Count of Flanders and Hainault 1070-1071

Count of Flanders and Hainault 1070-1071
Flanders seized by uncle Robert 'the Frisian' on his death[1]


1.2 Baldwin II of Hainault
----------------------------------------
Death: 1098, Palestine (on crusade)[1]
Occ: Count of Hainault ca 1071-1098

Count of Hainault ca 1071-1098

Spouse: Ida of Louvain
Death: ca 1139[5]
Father: Henry II, Count of Louvain (-ca1079)

Children: Baldwin III (1088-1120)
Louis
Simon
Henry
William
Arnulf
Ida
Richilda
Alix (->1152)


1.2.1 Baldwin III of Hainault
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1088
Death: 1120[1]
Occ: Count of Hainault 1098-1120

Spouse: Yolande of Gueldres
Father: Gerhard II, Count of Gueldres (-<1138)
Mother: Clementia von Gleiberg
Marr: ca 1107

Children: Baldwin IV (ca1110-<1171), Count of Hainault
Ida, m. Roger (III) de Tosny


1.2.2 Louis of Hainault
----------------------------------------

cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]


1.2.3 Simon of Hainault
----------------------------------------

canon, of Liege

cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]


1.2.4 Henry of Hainault
----------------------------------------

cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]


1.2.5 William of Hainault
----------------------------------------

cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]


1.2.6 Arnulf of Hainault
----------------------------------------
Occ: seigneur du Roeulx

seigneur du Roeulx (de jure uxoris)
name also given as 'Arnoul'[5]

Spouse: Beatrix d'Ath
Father: Gautier d'Ath
Mother: Ada de Roucy

Children: Eustache (-ca1192), seigneur du Roeulx


1.2.7 Ida of Hainault
----------------------------------------

cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]

Spouse: Thomas de Coucy, sieur de Coucy et Marle
Death: ca 1131, Laon[6]
Father: Enguerrand I de Coucy (-1116)
Mother: Ada de Roucy


1.2.8 Richilda of Hainault
----------------------------------------

cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]

Spouse: Amaury de Montfort-l'Amaury, comte d'Evreux
Death: bef 20 Apr 1136[7]
Father: Simon de Montfort-l'Amaury (-1087)
Mother: Agnes of Evreux
Marr: ca 1115[1]


1.2.9 Alix of Hainaut[8]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1152[1],[9]

'Aelidis' (D. Shepard, citing ES)[9]
cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]

Spouse: Nicholas II de Rumigny, seigneur de Rumigny
Death: aft 1153[9]

Children: Beatrice (->1191), m. Gossuin III, seigneur de Mons


1.3 Agnes of Hainault
----------------------------------------

cf. Theroff, 'The Counts of Flanders and Hainault'[1]



1. Paul Theroff, "The Counts of Flanders and Hainault," Paul Theroff's
Dynastic Genealogy Files, worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/theroff/
2. "Cartulaire de l’abbaye de Saint-Denis en Broqueroie,"
http://membres.lycos.fr/saintdenis/chartres1.html
cites Cartulaire de l’abbaye de Saint-Denis en Broqueroie,
fol. 10, verso, located in Archives de L’Etat à Mons, Belgium.
3. Thierry Stasser, "Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of
Hereford," Jan 11, 2004, paper copy: library of John Ravilious,
cites (Van Overstraeten, pp. 502-503) and other sources, English
extract by Todd A. Farmerie.
4. David Nicholas, "Medieval Flanders," London: Longman Group, 1992.
5. Steven Van Impe, "Hainaut," March 20, 1997, paper copy, library of
John P. Ravilious, descent from Baldwin VI of Flanders (I of Hainaut),
via Baldwin II of Hainaut to Agnes du Roeulx.
6. Abbe Suger, "The Life of King Louis," Paul Halsall, Internet Medieval
Source Book, October 1999
7. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the
United Kingdom.
8. Kay Allen, AG, "Re: John de Bohun m 1325 Alice de Arundel," July 28,
2002, GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com, confirming descent from Baldwin II
of Hainaut to Isabel de Conde, citing G. Andrews Moriarty [his writings,
currently in notebooks in the collection of the NEGHS].
9. Diane Shephard, "Ancestors of Catherine Baillon, Suzanne d`Ailleboust
& Marie Martin - #3," Sept 3, 2002, GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com, cites
ES (Europaische Stammtafeln), ancestry of Gossuin of Mons, and Anselm
of St. Pol, amongst others, discussed also with Gerard Poissonier.



* John P. Ravilious
Peter Stewart
2004-01-19 10:33:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by T***@aol.com
Sunday, 18 January, 2004
Dear Peter, Thierry, et al.,
Two quick observations on the subject of Richilda's alleged ancestry.
1. In reviewing some details concerning Richilda's immediate
descendants (see 3-generation pedigree below), the namesake
for each child seems in most cases readily apparent (esp.
names such as Baldwin, Richilda, Alix/Aleidis, Henry). Two
of her grandchildren for whom a namesake cannot be readily
identified are children of her son Baldwin II: Louis, and
Simon (the latter a canon at Liege).
The source for Simon (outside of a possible religious, non-family
derivation) is uncertain. A convenient (if unproven) source for
Louis' name would be provided, if in fact Richilda's father was
Louis/Ludwig of Mousson (as originally suggested in this thread,
thanks to Leo).
Sources for these names from beyond previous family members should not
be considered at all unlikely: Simon appears at around the same time in
the ducal house of Lorraine, given late in 1096 to the son of Gertrude
of Flanders, a niece of Richilde's second husband; and Louis appears for
the first time in the Capetian line in 1081 for Louis VI, whose mother
was a maternal half-sister of Simon's.

Anyway, names from godparents are recorded in other comital families,
even for the heir, at this time; and there were also some exotic choices
for quite different reasons, such as Philippe in the royal family.
Post by T***@aol.com
2. Thierry had previously cited a source which not only provided
evidence for Richilda's blood relationship to Pope Leo IX,
"[who was] the uncle of Richilda" (Flandria Generosa, MGH SS IX,
p. 320: "...eiusdem Richildis avunculo"), but also indicated a
less specific relationship to the 'imperial' family, referring
to Richilda, "who was of the imperial blood" (Cont. Aquicinctina,
p. 553: "Richildem quae erat de sanguine imperiali ...").
I'm inclined to discount completely this reference to Pope Leo IX as
Richilde's "avunculus" - I will post on this when I'm able to check some
more sources, but my view is that it wasn't even a stretch of the word
for some more distant blood relationship so much as an outright error,
with possibly a fairly ready explanation.
Post by T***@aol.com
It is not certain what is meant by this, but it can be
reasonably presumed that a descent from either a Carolingian
subsequent (Holy Roman) Emperor was intended. The AT given in
an earlier post in this thread showed that, if Richilda was
the daughter of Louis of Mousson and his wife Sophia of
Upper Lorraine (heiress of Bar), she would then have been the
great-granddaughter of Hermann II, Duke of Swabia (d. 1003)
and his wife Gerberga, daughter of Conrad III 'the Pacific'
of Burgundy (d. 993). This relationship would provide lines
of descent from Otto I 'the Great (one), Henry 'the Fowler
(two), and also the Carolingian Louis IV 'd'Outremer', King
of France (one).
Even closer, as a 'family' relationship, Sophia of Upper
Lorraine was a first cousin of the Emperor Henry III (her
mother Matilda of Swabia was sister to Gisela, wife of
Conrad II and mother of Henry III). Such a close kinship
for Richilda (if a daughter of Sophia) would not have
escaped notice.
Many people had "imperial" connections as close as this without remark.
The statement is clearly that Richilde carried more than mere
cousinhood, but this could mean just about anything - or nothing -
depending on the context and the date of the source. The continutation
to Sigebert of Gembloux that Thierry cited was written well after
Richilde's lifetime, going down to 1237.

I have found the mention I asked about earlier today, under the year
1195, over a century after Richilde's death (MGH SS VI p 433). It says:
"Balduinus Hasnoniensis duxit uxorem Richeldem, relictam Herimanni
comitis Montensis, que erat de sanguine imperiali, et soror sancti
Leonis pape noni" (Balduin of Hainaut married Richilde, widow of Coount
Hermann of Mons, who was of imperial blood, and sister of the sainted
Pope Leo IX).

"Soror" is almost always understood to mean sister, but this is clearly
not true. It could also mean cousin, at least in classical Latin, but
this is hardly the interpretation that the author would have expected
his readers to glean from the sentence. I suspect this entry was written
soon after the accession of Richilde's descendant Balduin IX of Flanders
as emperor of Constantinople in 1204, in order to puff his antecedants
generally.

Peter Stewart
B.M. Kamp
2004-01-19 12:58:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Subject: Re: Richilde, wife of William FitzOsber, Earl of
Hereford

A minor addition to the descendants of Richilde of Hainault, as given by
John Ravilious:

snip
Post by T***@aol.com
1.2.1 Baldwin III of Hainault
- --------------------------------------
Birth: 1088
Death: 1120[1]
Occ: Count of Hainault 1098-1120
Spouse: Yolande of Gueldres
Father: Gerhard II, Count of Gueldres (-<1138)
Mother: Clementia von Gleiberg
Marr: ca 1107
In 1999 Armin Wolf published an article in the "Archiv für
Familiengeschichtsforschung", Heft 1, page 52, in which it is stated
that Clementia of Poitou (Frau von Gleiberg) was the second wife of of
Gerard Flaminius of Gueldres. All his chikldren were from an earlier
marriage with NN. I found this correction in ES XIX (corrections to ES
XVIII).

Regards to all,

Bert M. Kamp
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