Discussion:
Royal Stewart and Fleming Line
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d***@googlemail.com
2020-06-21 18:57:53 UTC
Permalink
From the Masters Family History by Carol Collins & Mary Glenn (In Burke's
Families with British Ancestory) Genealogy Publishing Co. 1977 we were able to
find the following line into our de la Hele...
1. James STEWART 1534-1607 in Scotland
+ Katherine KERR 1538-1606
2. Janet STEWART b 1558 Traquair, Scotland
+ Laird John VAICHE/VEITCH
A few years ago I found the above referenced book which said my Janet STEWART
VEITCH was descended from European royalty. It says, "For although Janet
STEWART VEITCH's ancestors connect her to the more recent kings of Scotland and
to other interesting relations...her lines are more often than not illegitimate
in descent whereas her mother-in=law's (Marion/Mariota/Marriot FLEMING)
ancestry is traced as far into antiquity but contains fewer instances of
illegitimacy."
It says that Janet STEWART VEITCH was the aunt of the Earl of Traquair and thar
Marriot FLEMING's ancestors include Wm. the Conqueror, Hugh Capet, Alfred the
Great, Eleanor of Acquitaine, "The Black Knight" James Stewart and Lady Godiva.
Marion/Mariota FLEMING b in Boghall Scotland m William VAICHE and they are the
parents of Laird John Vaiche mentioned above.
I would appreciate any help in finding our lines from these two great ladies.
Who was the Earl of Traquair (the 1st). Any help on this would be appreciated.
We have been searching for our line for about 5 years and have not gotten any
further.
Many thanks, Marie
I, too, an researching Marion Veitch/Mariot Vaiche but am unconvined by her apparent royal lineage.
She is said to be the daughter of Sir Malcolm Fleming, the 3rd Lord Fleming, Lord Chamberlain of Scotland. He married Princess Joan, or Janet, of Scotland, daughter of King James IV. They had 8 children, the eldest of whom was born in 1525 but Marion is not included in the list, which is odd if she was born 1524, as is claimed.
Sir Malcolm is known to have had illegitimate children including sons John and William. It seems possible there was also a daughter, Marion.
To complicate the matter, some sources suggest Marion was actually daughter of William Fleming of Boghall and his wife Elizabeth Brisbane.

Ummmm
P J Evans
2020-06-21 19:04:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@googlemail.com
From the Masters Family History by Carol Collins & Mary Glenn (In Burke's
Families with British Ancestory) Genealogy Publishing Co. 1977 we were able to
find the following line into our de la Hele...
1. James STEWART 1534-1607 in Scotland
+ Katherine KERR 1538-1606
2. Janet STEWART b 1558 Traquair, Scotland
+ Laird John VAICHE/VEITCH
A few years ago I found the above referenced book which said my Janet STEWART
VEITCH was descended from European royalty. It says, "For although Janet
STEWART VEITCH's ancestors connect her to the more recent kings of Scotland and
to other interesting relations...her lines are more often than not illegitimate
in descent whereas her mother-in=law's (Marion/Mariota/Marriot FLEMING)
ancestry is traced as far into antiquity but contains fewer instances of
illegitimacy."
It says that Janet STEWART VEITCH was the aunt of the Earl of Traquair and thar
Marriot FLEMING's ancestors include Wm. the Conqueror, Hugh Capet, Alfred the
Great, Eleanor of Acquitaine, "The Black Knight" James Stewart and Lady Godiva.
Marion/Mariota FLEMING b in Boghall Scotland m William VAICHE and they are the
parents of Laird John Vaiche mentioned above.
I would appreciate any help in finding our lines from these two great ladies.
Who was the Earl of Traquair (the 1st). Any help on this would be appreciated.
We have been searching for our line for about 5 years and have not gotten any
further.
Many thanks, Marie
I, too, an researching Marion Veitch/Mariot Vaiche but am unconvined by her apparent royal lineage.
She is said to be the daughter of Sir Malcolm Fleming, the 3rd Lord Fleming, Lord Chamberlain of Scotland. He married Princess Joan, or Janet, of Scotland, daughter of King James IV. They had 8 children, the eldest of whom was born in 1525 but Marion is not included in the list, which is odd if she was born 1524, as is claimed.
Sir Malcolm is known to have had illegitimate children including sons John and William. It seems possible there was also a daughter, Marion.
To complicate the matter, some sources suggest Marion was actually daughter of William Fleming of Boghall and his wife Elizabeth Brisbane.
Ummmm
See "Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants", page 114, for ancestry of Janet Stewart Veatch. It only includes sons Malcolm and Alexander, but you may find your answers in one of the works in the sources listed.
wjhonson
2020-06-22 19:32:42 UTC
Permalink
Since *all* of the children (who lived) married into other noble families, you are right to be skeptical.

Start by trying to find any *credible* book-published link which claims she marrid a Vetche.

Their actual daughter Mary married William Maitland, the Secretary of State
JBrand
2020-06-23 00:21:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@googlemail.com
From the Masters Family History by Carol Collins & Mary Glenn (In Burke's
Families with British Ancestory) Genealogy Publishing Co. 1977 we were able to
find the following line into our de la Hele...
1. James STEWART 1534-1607 in Scotland
+ Katherine KERR 1538-1606
2. Janet STEWART b 1558 Traquair, Scotland
+ Laird John VAICHE/VEITCH
A few years ago I found the above referenced book which said my Janet STEWART
VEITCH was descended from European royalty. It says, "For although Janet
STEWART VEITCH's ancestors connect her to the more recent kings of Scotland and
to other interesting relations...her lines are more often than not illegitimate
in descent whereas her mother-in=law's (Marion/Mariota/Marriot FLEMING)
ancestry is traced as far into antiquity but contains fewer instances of
illegitimacy."
It says that Janet STEWART VEITCH was the aunt of the Earl of Traquair and thar
Marriot FLEMING's ancestors include Wm. the Conqueror, Hugh Capet, Alfred the
Great, Eleanor of Acquitaine, "The Black Knight" James Stewart and Lady Godiva.
Marion/Mariota FLEMING b in Boghall Scotland m William VAICHE and they are the
parents of Laird John Vaiche mentioned above.
I would appreciate any help in finding our lines from these two great ladies.
Who was the Earl of Traquair (the 1st). Any help on this would be appreciated.
We have been searching for our line for about 5 years and have not gotten any
further.
Many thanks, Marie
I, too, an researching Marion Veitch/Mariot Vaiche but am unconvined by her apparent royal lineage.
She is said to be the daughter of Sir Malcolm Fleming, the 3rd Lord Fleming, Lord Chamberlain of Scotland. He married Princess Joan, or Janet, of Scotland, daughter of King James IV. They had 8 children, the eldest of whom was born in 1525 but Marion is not included in the list, which is odd if she was born 1524, as is claimed.
Sir Malcolm is known to have had illegitimate children including sons John and William. It seems possible there was also a daughter, Marion.
To complicate the matter, some sources suggest Marion was actually daughter of William Fleming of Boghall and his wife Elizabeth Brisbane.
Ummmm
_American Genealogist_, 52/53 (1976): 152 appears to show the following generations:

19. JAMES STEWART of Traquair, d. 9 March 1607, m. Catherine Ker, d. 1606.

20. JANET, m. (contract 29 Oct. 1576), John Veitch of Peebles

21. MALCOLM VEITCH, of Muirdeen, Scotland, m. unknown

22. JAMES VEITCH b. 1628, Murdeen, ...

From Google snippet view (and it might just be from a discussion of something proved wrong).
Carl-Henry Geschwind
2020-06-23 01:12:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by JBrand
Post by d***@googlemail.com
From the Masters Family History by Carol Collins & Mary Glenn (In Burke's
Families with British Ancestory) Genealogy Publishing Co. 1977 we were able to
find the following line into our de la Hele...
1. James STEWART 1534-1607 in Scotland
+ Katherine KERR 1538-1606
2. Janet STEWART b 1558 Traquair, Scotland
+ Laird John VAICHE/VEITCH
A few years ago I found the above referenced book which said my Janet STEWART
VEITCH was descended from European royalty. It says, "For although Janet
STEWART VEITCH's ancestors connect her to the more recent kings of Scotland and
to other interesting relations...her lines are more often than not illegitimate
in descent whereas her mother-in=law's (Marion/Mariota/Marriot FLEMING)
ancestry is traced as far into antiquity but contains fewer instances of
illegitimacy."
It says that Janet STEWART VEITCH was the aunt of the Earl of Traquair and thar
Marriot FLEMING's ancestors include Wm. the Conqueror, Hugh Capet, Alfred the
Great, Eleanor of Acquitaine, "The Black Knight" James Stewart and Lady Godiva.
Marion/Mariota FLEMING b in Boghall Scotland m William VAICHE and they are the
parents of Laird John Vaiche mentioned above.
I would appreciate any help in finding our lines from these two great ladies.
Who was the Earl of Traquair (the 1st). Any help on this would be appreciated.
We have been searching for our line for about 5 years and have not gotten any
further.
Many thanks, Marie
I, too, an researching Marion Veitch/Mariot Vaiche but am unconvined by her apparent royal lineage.
She is said to be the daughter of Sir Malcolm Fleming, the 3rd Lord Fleming, Lord Chamberlain of Scotland. He married Princess Joan, or Janet, of Scotland, daughter of King James IV. They had 8 children, the eldest of whom was born in 1525 but Marion is not included in the list, which is odd if she was born 1524, as is claimed.
Sir Malcolm is known to have had illegitimate children including sons John and William. It seems possible there was also a daughter, Marion.
To complicate the matter, some sources suggest Marion was actually daughter of William Fleming of Boghall and his wife Elizabeth Brisbane.
Ummmm
19. JAMES STEWART of Traquair, d. 9 March 1607, m. Catherine Ker, d. 1606.
20. JANET, m. (contract 29 Oct. 1576), John Veitch of Peebles
21. MALCOLM VEITCH, of Muirdeen, Scotland, m. unknown
22. JAMES VEITCH b. 1628, Murdeen, ...
From Google snippet view (and it might just be from a discussion of something proved wrong).
I have access to The American Genealogist through membership in NEHGS (at least until my membership expires at the end of the month).

The citation for the pedigree is Harold M. Lord, "An Illegitimate Line from Harold II of England to James Veitch of Calvert Co., MD", _The American Genealogist_ 53 (1977): 152-153. This is a short pedigree cobbled together without discussion.

The relevant citations given in the pedigree for the generations of interest are:

Generations 16-20 [i.e., James Stewart, Earl of Buchan, to Janet, wife of John Veitch of Peebles]: _Scots Peerage_ 8: 399-402

Generations 20-22 [i.e., Janet, wife of John Veitch of Peebles, to James Veitch of Calvert Co.]: Buchan and Paton's _History of Peebles_ [no page numbers supplied]

Generation 22: Rev. T. R. Guthrie, _Guthrie Family_ [no page numbers supplied]

Generations 15-22: _Descendants of Illegitimate Sons and Daughters of Kings of Britaun [sic]_, Lineage #44
Carl-Henry Geschwind
2020-06-23 01:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl-Henry Geschwind
Post by JBrand
Post by d***@googlemail.com
From the Masters Family History by Carol Collins & Mary Glenn (In Burke's
Families with British Ancestory) Genealogy Publishing Co. 1977 we were able to
find the following line into our de la Hele...
1. James STEWART 1534-1607 in Scotland
+ Katherine KERR 1538-1606
2. Janet STEWART b 1558 Traquair, Scotland
+ Laird John VAICHE/VEITCH
A few years ago I found the above referenced book which said my Janet STEWART
VEITCH was descended from European royalty. It says, "For although Janet
STEWART VEITCH's ancestors connect her to the more recent kings of Scotland and
to other interesting relations...her lines are more often than not illegitimate
in descent whereas her mother-in=law's (Marion/Mariota/Marriot FLEMING)
ancestry is traced as far into antiquity but contains fewer instances of
illegitimacy."
It says that Janet STEWART VEITCH was the aunt of the Earl of Traquair and thar
Marriot FLEMING's ancestors include Wm. the Conqueror, Hugh Capet, Alfred the
Great, Eleanor of Acquitaine, "The Black Knight" James Stewart and Lady Godiva.
Marion/Mariota FLEMING b in Boghall Scotland m William VAICHE and they are the
parents of Laird John Vaiche mentioned above.
I would appreciate any help in finding our lines from these two great ladies.
Who was the Earl of Traquair (the 1st). Any help on this would be appreciated.
We have been searching for our line for about 5 years and have not gotten any
further.
Many thanks, Marie
I, too, an researching Marion Veitch/Mariot Vaiche but am unconvined by her apparent royal lineage.
She is said to be the daughter of Sir Malcolm Fleming, the 3rd Lord Fleming, Lord Chamberlain of Scotland. He married Princess Joan, or Janet, of Scotland, daughter of King James IV. They had 8 children, the eldest of whom was born in 1525 but Marion is not included in the list, which is odd if she was born 1524, as is claimed.
Sir Malcolm is known to have had illegitimate children including sons John and William. It seems possible there was also a daughter, Marion.
To complicate the matter, some sources suggest Marion was actually daughter of William Fleming of Boghall and his wife Elizabeth Brisbane.
Ummmm
19. JAMES STEWART of Traquair, d. 9 March 1607, m. Catherine Ker, d. 1606.
20. JANET, m. (contract 29 Oct. 1576), John Veitch of Peebles
21. MALCOLM VEITCH, of Muirdeen, Scotland, m. unknown
22. JAMES VEITCH b. 1628, Murdeen, ...
From Google snippet view (and it might just be from a discussion of something proved wrong).
I have access to The American Genealogist through membership in NEHGS (at least until my membership expires at the end of the month).
The citation for the pedigree is Harold M. Lord, "An Illegitimate Line from Harold II of England to James Veitch of Calvert Co., MD", _The American Genealogist_ 53 (1977): 152-153. This is a short pedigree cobbled together without discussion.
Generations 16-20 [i.e., James Stewart, Earl of Buchan, to Janet, wife of John Veitch of Peebles]: _Scots Peerage_ 8: 399-402
Generations 20-22 [i.e., Janet, wife of John Veitch of Peebles, to James Veitch of Calvert Co.]: Buchan and Paton's _History of Peebles_ [no page numbers supplied]
Generation 22: Rev. T. R. Guthrie, _Guthrie Family_ [no page numbers supplied]
Generations 15-22: _Descendants of Illegitimate Sons and Daughters of Kings of Britaun [sic]_, Lineage #44
I now also see that this pedigree is not relevant. The question raised by the original poster in this thread is not about the descent of Janet Stewart, wife of John Veitch of Peebles, but rather about the descent of John Veitch himself, whose mother Marion/Mariot is a supposed [but highly doubtful] daughter of Sir Malcolm Fleming and [another] Janet Stewart, daughter of King James IV of Scotland.
JBrand
2020-06-23 01:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl-Henry Geschwind
Post by Carl-Henry Geschwind
Post by JBrand
Post by d***@googlemail.com
From the Masters Family History by Carol Collins & Mary Glenn (In Burke's
Families with British Ancestory) Genealogy Publishing Co. 1977 we were able to
find the following line into our de la Hele...
1. James STEWART 1534-1607 in Scotland
+ Katherine KERR 1538-1606
2. Janet STEWART b 1558 Traquair, Scotland
+ Laird John VAICHE/VEITCH
A few years ago I found the above referenced book which said my Janet STEWART
VEITCH was descended from European royalty. It says, "For although Janet
STEWART VEITCH's ancestors connect her to the more recent kings of Scotland and
to other interesting relations...her lines are more often than not illegitimate
in descent whereas her mother-in=law's (Marion/Mariota/Marriot FLEMING)
ancestry is traced as far into antiquity but contains fewer instances of
illegitimacy."
It says that Janet STEWART VEITCH was the aunt of the Earl of Traquair and thar
Marriot FLEMING's ancestors include Wm. the Conqueror, Hugh Capet, Alfred the
Great, Eleanor of Acquitaine, "The Black Knight" James Stewart and Lady Godiva.
Marion/Mariota FLEMING b in Boghall Scotland m William VAICHE and they are the
parents of Laird John Vaiche mentioned above.
I would appreciate any help in finding our lines from these two great ladies.
Who was the Earl of Traquair (the 1st). Any help on this would be appreciated.
We have been searching for our line for about 5 years and have not gotten any
further.
Many thanks, Marie
I, too, an researching Marion Veitch/Mariot Vaiche but am unconvined by her apparent royal lineage.
She is said to be the daughter of Sir Malcolm Fleming, the 3rd Lord Fleming, Lord Chamberlain of Scotland. He married Princess Joan, or Janet, of Scotland, daughter of King James IV. They had 8 children, the eldest of whom was born in 1525 but Marion is not included in the list, which is odd if she was born 1524, as is claimed.
Sir Malcolm is known to have had illegitimate children including sons John and William. It seems possible there was also a daughter, Marion.
To complicate the matter, some sources suggest Marion was actually daughter of William Fleming of Boghall and his wife Elizabeth Brisbane.
Ummmm
19. JAMES STEWART of Traquair, d. 9 March 1607, m. Catherine Ker, d. 1606.
20. JANET, m. (contract 29 Oct. 1576), John Veitch of Peebles
21. MALCOLM VEITCH, of Muirdeen, Scotland, m. unknown
22. JAMES VEITCH b. 1628, Murdeen, ...
From Google snippet view (and it might just be from a discussion of something proved wrong).
I have access to The American Genealogist through membership in NEHGS (at least until my membership expires at the end of the month).
The citation for the pedigree is Harold M. Lord, "An Illegitimate Line from Harold II of England to James Veitch of Calvert Co., MD", _The American Genealogist_ 53 (1977): 152-153. This is a short pedigree cobbled together without discussion.
Generations 16-20 [i.e., James Stewart, Earl of Buchan, to Janet, wife of John Veitch of Peebles]: _Scots Peerage_ 8: 399-402
Generations 20-22 [i.e., Janet, wife of John Veitch of Peebles, to James Veitch of Calvert Co.]: Buchan and Paton's _History of Peebles_ [no page numbers supplied]
Generation 22: Rev. T. R. Guthrie, _Guthrie Family_ [no page numbers supplied]
Generations 15-22: _Descendants of Illegitimate Sons and Daughters of Kings of Britaun [sic]_, Lineage #44
I now also see that this pedigree is not relevant. The question raised by the original poster in this thread is not about the descent of Janet Stewart, wife of John Veitch of Peebles, but rather about the descent of John Veitch himself, whose mother Marion/Mariot is a supposed [but highly doubtful] daughter of Sir Malcolm Fleming and [another] Janet Stewart, daughter of King James IV of Scotland.
Okay, good thing at least one of us is paying attention. I don't know anything about the other question.
wjhonson
2020-06-23 17:18:25 UTC
Permalink
It's probably not actually irrelevant.

I suspect that *some* one misread a relationship indication and created a fictitious parent on the wrong side from where the real parent should be. And then attached that person into some parentage where names-the-same.

That would explain how the Veitch's suddenly got a line to James IV that they did not deserve.
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