Discussion:
VCH-Bucks history of Aston Clinton
(too old to reply)
Jim Weber
2012-04-03 23:07:19 UTC
Permalink
Dear newsgroup,

Reading the history of the Manors of Aston Clinton in VCH-Bucks, vol 2
(1908), pp. 312-9 raised many questions, which the newsgroup may be
able to help resolve. I state the questions after the excerpted parts
of the history given below. The full article is easily available on
www.british-history.ac.uk, but I have copied certain relevant sections
for discussion purposes.

Manors of ASTON CLINTON (Bucks),

Before the Norman Conquest, the manor of ASTON CLINTON was held by
Wlwen, a 'man' of King Edward. (fn. 6) Wlwen is a woman's name, and
she seems to have been the predecessor of Edward de Salisbury, the
Domesday tenant, in all his lands in Buckinghamshire. (fn. 7) He was
the standard-bearer of Henry I at the battle of Brenville in 1100,
(fn. 8) and was made Earl of Salisbury. (fn. 9) Whether he alienated
it during his lifetime o rwhether it descended to his heir Walter de
Salisbury does not appear, but at the end of the 12th century it
belonged to the family of Clinton, who held it by grand serjeanty. In
1193 and 1194 William de Clinton rendered account of 10 marks for
having seisin of his land at Aston (fn. 10) until the king's return to
England, so that he was probably waiting to do homage to the king for
lands of inheritance. In this case they had been held presumably by
his father Jordan de Clinton. (fn. 11) William died before 1196, (fn.
12) and the sheriff of the county rendered account for his lands in
Aston. In 1200 King John granted to Hugh de Haversham the custody of
his lands and heir and the marriage of the heir, (fn. 13) but the
next year this was cancelled, since Isabella de Clinton gave 300 marks
for the same privileges. (fn. 14) She answered for Aston for several
years, and was probably the widow of William de Clinton. (fn. 15) His
heir was his son, another William de Clinton, (fn. 16) who is
mentioned in a list of tenants in chief in 1210–12. (fn. 17) In 1216,
however, the manor was in the hands of the king, (fn. 18) although
Isabella was still alive, and while William de Clinton was still a
minor. (fn. 19) The manor of Aston was granted in that year by King
John to Walerand Teutonicus for the support of the castle of
Berkhampstead. (fn. 20) Before 1219 William de Clinton appears to
have come of age and obtained possession of Aston. (fn. 21) His name
appears for the last time in 1228, (fn. 22) and the next tenant of
the manor seems to have been Nicia de Clinton, who was holding it in
1240–1. (fn. 23) Her relationship to William de Clinton does not
appear; but it seems probable that she was his widow, and having been
jointly seised with him, held the whole manor for her life. (fn. 24)
She died in or before 1246, (fn. 25) when she was succeeded by her
son William de Clinton, (fn. 26) more usually called de Paris, who
did homage for the manor in 1247. (fn. 27) About 1252 he alienated
the manor of Aston Clinton to William de Montagu for his homage and
service. (fn. 28)
.....

At the end of the 12th century William de Clinton alienated 40
librates of land, which afterwards formed the manor of ASTON CHIVEREY,
to Reginald de Mohun in frank-marriage with Alice, probably the
daughter of William de Clinton. (fn. 81) After the death of Reginald
Alice held the manor herself, (fn. 82) but before 1215 she married
Robert de Beauchamp, (fn. 83) and they held the manor jointly. (fn.
84) Between 1247 and 1261–2 the manor of Chiverey was granted "at
ferm" to James de Audley, who afterwards became possessed of the fee-
simple. (fn. 85) Alice de Audley, the widow of James de Audley, or
his son of the same name, held the manor of Aston Chiverey in the 14th
century. She died in 1342, and was succeeded by William de Audley, the
grandson of James de Audley. (fn. 86) He claimed to hold it by
descent from the original feoffees of William de Clinton. (fn. 87)
William de Audley settled the manor of Chiverey on himself, his wife
Joan, and their heirs. (fn. 88) He died in 1367, and his widow held
it till 1382, (fn. 89) when it passed to Elizabeth the niece of
William de Audley and daughter of Thomas de Audley. (fn. 90)
Elizabeth married John Rose, an esquire of Richard II. (fn. 91) She
seems to have predeceased her husband, (fn. 92) who held the manor
for life, according to a settlement made in 1387, (fn. 93) and by
agreement with Philip St. Clair, (fn. 94) who seems to have been the
heir of Elizabeth Rose. His only relationship to Elizabeth was
apparently through the mother of William de Audley, who was one of the
sisters and co-heiresses of Edmund de Bereford. (fn. 95) Another
sister married John St. Clair the grandfather of Philip. (fn. 96)
Philip St. Clair never was in seisin of the manor, since John Rose
outlived him. (fn. 97) The latter died in 1410, and Aston Chiverey
was seized into the king's hands during the minority of John son and
heir of Philip. (fn. 98) John died before coming of age, (fn. 99)
and the manor passed to his brother Thomas, who twice in a very short
time tried to evade the rights of wardship of the king. In 1424 he was
fined £200 for having married Margaret Hoo without the king's consent,
while he was still a ward of Henry V, (fn. 100) and in 1425 (fn.
101) he made a settlement of the manor of Aston Chiverey with the
intent to defraud the king of the wardship of his heirs, and was fined
£60. (fn. 102) He died in 1435, (fn. 103) leaving three daughters,
the eldest of whom was then thirteen years old. In the partition of
his lands the manor was assigned to Eleanor, the second daughter, who
married John Gage. (fn. 104) They held it jointly till the death of
Eleanor, and then John held it for life. (fn. 105) He died in 1476,
(fn. 106) and was succeeded by his son William Gage and grandson Sir
John Gage. (fn. 107) The latter, together with his wife Philippa and
Edmund and John Gage, sold the manor of Aston Chiverey in 1532 to
Margaret, Countess of Salisbury, Reginald Pole, clerk, and others,
(fn. 108) and from this time it was held with the manor of Aston
Clinton (fn. 109) (q.v.).
......

The manor of OKE was apparently in the parish of Aston Clinton, but it
is only mentioned twice in the 14th and 15th centuries. John Rose and
his wife Elizabeth held the manors of Chiverey and Oke in 1389. (fn.
181) Thomas St. Clare also held the manor of Oke in 1424, (fn. 182)
but it is not mentioned again in the descent of the manor of Aston
Chiverey.

From: 'The parishes of Aylesbury hundred: Aston Clinton', A History of
the County of Buckingham: Volume 2 (1908), pp. 312-319. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=62779&strquery=aston
clinton Date accessed: 03 April 2012.

I have the following questions/remarks concerning the above:

1. The marriage between Alice de Mohun & (1) William de Clinton, (2)
Robert de Beauchamp, discussed previously in SGM, is certainly
reversed in the above. Yet apparently there was some transaction that
happened between William de Clinton (probably the one who d. bef.
1196) & Reynold de Mohun (who was of age in 1204 & m. Alice de
Briwere). This transaction led to the above misinterpretation. The
source is: "(81) Assize R. 57, m. 8 d.; 58, m. 6 d. The relationship
of Alice to William de Montagu is omitted in the Assize R., but in a
rental of the reign of Edward III the grantis said to have been made
by William to his son with his wife; P.R.O. Rentals and Surv. 72."

2. The William de Clinton who m. Alice de Mohun must be the one who
was of age by 1219 and not heard of after 1228. And then who was
Nicia de Clinton, his presumed widow, who held Aston Chiverey until
1246. Was this Alice de Mohun (Alicia-->Nicia?), who held the manor
until William's son William "de Paris" came of age in 1247? William
obviously had a wife prior to Alice de Mohun (he was c30 years older
than Alice), and his son William was born by 1226. And it wasn't the
son William "de Paris" who m. Alice because he alive in 1252.

3. What was the relationship between Alice de Mohun Clinton Beauchamp
and James de Audley. Did he m. a daughter of William & Alice (or
William's 1st wife).

4. Susan Johanson, in her rootsweb site, states that James de Audley
m. Alice de Hoke of the Oke manor mentioned above. As indicated above
Oke & Aston Chiverey both ended up being held by James' descendants.
Susan's source was:
Title: NeHGSR 139:283-287
Text: Maternal Ancestry of Governor Thomas Dudley: St. Clair and
Audley Lines
5. VCH-Bucks is incorrect in having two sisters of Edmund de Bereford
involved in the Audley/St Clair descent. According to VCH-Warwick
(Shotteswell Manor) & Magnum Britannia (Measham Manor in Repton,
Derbyshire)both on www.british-history.ac.uk, Margaret de Bereford was
the sister who m. James de Audley (son of James & Alice de Hoke) and
had a daughter (Susan Johanson has her as "Alice de Audley") who m.
John St. Clair, bringing the property into the St. Clair family.
6. James de Audley was of age by 1261/2 (or possibly even by 1247).
It is difficult to fit him into the main line Audley family. The name
James is so common within it, that all of the slots seem to be taken.
7. Apparently Keats-Rohan, DD, p. 403-4, identifies a William de
Clinton, son of Jordan, son of William, son of Geoffrey de Clinton
(the younger). This would seem to fit with the William son of Jordan
de Clinton mentioned above, who d. by 1196. However given that
William was of age by 1193, it would seem chronologically that the
eldest William would be son of Geoffrey (the elder) & Lasceline. I
don't have a ready copy of DD to check it out.
Again, any comments, answers, etc. would be appreciated.
Jim Weber
Nancy
2021-08-07 15:01:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Weber
Dear newsgroup,
Reading the history of the Manors of Aston Clinton in VCH-Bucks, vol 2
(1908), pp. 312-9 raised many questions, which the newsgroup may be
able to help resolve. I state the questions after the excerpted parts
of the history given below. The full article is easily available on
www.british-history.ac.uk, but I have copied certain relevant sections
for discussion purposes.
Manors of ASTON CLINTON (Bucks),
Before the Norman Conquest, the manor of ASTON CLINTON was held by
Wlwen, a 'man' of King Edward. (fn. 6) Wlwen is a woman's name, and
she seems to have been the predecessor of Edward de Salisbury, the
Domesday tenant, in all his lands in Buckinghamshire. (fn. 7) He was
the standard-bearer of Henry I at the battle of Brenville in 1100,
(fn. 8) and was made Earl of Salisbury. (fn. 9) Whether he alienated
it during his lifetime o rwhether it descended to his heir Walter de
Salisbury does not appear, but at the end of the 12th century it
belonged to the family of Clinton, who held it by grand serjeanty. In
1193 and 1194 William de Clinton rendered account of 10 marks for
having seisin of his land at Aston (fn. 10) until the king's return to
England, so that he was probably waiting to do homage to the king for
lands of inheritance. In this case they had been held presumably by
his father Jordan de Clinton. (fn. 11) William died before 1196, (fn.
12) and the sheriff of the county rendered account for his lands in
Aston. In 1200 King John granted to Hugh de Haversham the custody of
his lands and heir and the marriage of the heir, (fn. 13) but the
next year this was cancelled, since Isabella de Clinton gave 300 marks
for the same privileges. (fn. 14) She answered for Aston for several
years, and was probably the widow of William de Clinton. (fn. 15) His
heir was his son, another William de Clinton, (fn. 16) who is
mentioned in a list of tenants in chief in 1210–12. (fn. 17) In 1216,
however, the manor was in the hands of the king, (fn. 18) although
Isabella was still alive, and while William de Clinton was still a
minor. (fn. 19) The manor of Aston was granted in that year by King
John to Walerand Teutonicus for the support of the castle of
Berkhampstead. (fn. 20) Before 1219 William de Clinton appears to
have come of age and obtained possession of Aston. (fn. 21) His name
appears for the last time in 1228, (fn. 22) and the next tenant of
the manor seems to have been Nicia de Clinton, who was holding it in
1240–1. (fn. 23) Her relationship to William de Clinton does not
appear; but it seems probable that she was his widow, and having been
jointly seised with him, held the whole manor for her life. (fn. 24)
She died in or before 1246, (fn. 25) when she was succeeded by her
son William de Clinton, (fn. 26) more usually called de Paris, who
did homage for the manor in 1247. (fn. 27) About 1252 he alienated
the manor of Aston Clinton to William de Montagu for his homage and
service. (fn. 28)
.....
At the end of the 12th century William de Clinton alienated 40
librates of land, which afterwards formed the manor of ASTON CHIVEREY,
to Reginald de Mohun in frank-marriage with Alice, probably the
daughter of William de Clinton. (fn. 81) After the death of Reginald
Alice held the manor herself, (fn. 82) but before 1215 she married
Robert de Beauchamp, (fn. 83) and they held the manor jointly. (fn.
84) Between 1247 and 1261–2 the manor of Chiverey was granted "at
ferm" to James de Audley, who afterwards became possessed of the fee-
simple. (fn. 85) Alice de Audley, the widow of James de Audley, or
his son of the same name, held the manor of Aston Chiverey in the 14th
century. She died in 1342, and was succeeded by William de Audley, the
grandson of James de Audley. (fn. 86) He claimed to hold it by
descent from the original feoffees of William de Clinton. (fn. 87)
William de Audley settled the manor of Chiverey on himself, his wife
Joan, and their heirs. (fn. 88) He died in 1367, and his widow held
it till 1382, (fn. 89) when it passed to Elizabeth the niece of
William de Audley and daughter of Thomas de Audley. (fn. 90)
Elizabeth married John Rose, an esquire of Richard II. (fn. 91) She
seems to have predeceased her husband, (fn. 92) who held the manor
for life, according to a settlement made in 1387, (fn. 93) and by
agreement with Philip St. Clair, (fn. 94) who seems to have been the
heir of Elizabeth Rose. His only relationship to Elizabeth was
apparently through the mother of William de Audley, who was one of the
sisters and co-heiresses of Edmund de Bereford. (fn. 95) Another
sister married John St. Clair the grandfather of Philip. (fn. 96)
Philip St. Clair never was in seisin of the manor, since John Rose
outlived him. (fn. 97) The latter died in 1410, and Aston Chiverey
was seized into the king's hands during the minority of John son and
heir of Philip. (fn. 98) John died before coming of age, (fn. 99)
and the manor passed to his brother Thomas, who twice in a very short
time tried to evade the rights of wardship of the king. In 1424 he was
fined £200 for having married Margaret Hoo without the king's consent,
while he was still a ward of Henry V, (fn. 100) and in 1425 (fn.
101) he made a settlement of the manor of Aston Chiverey with the
intent to defraud the king of the wardship of his heirs, and was fined
£60. (fn. 102) He died in 1435, (fn. 103) leaving three daughters,
the eldest of whom was then thirteen years old. In the partition of
his lands the manor was assigned to Eleanor, the second daughter, who
married John Gage. (fn. 104) They held it jointly till the death of
Eleanor, and then John held it for life. (fn. 105) He died in 1476,
(fn. 106) and was succeeded by his son William Gage and grandson Sir
John Gage. (fn. 107) The latter, together with his wife Philippa and
Edmund and John Gage, sold the manor of Aston Chiverey in 1532 to
Margaret, Countess of Salisbury, Reginald Pole, clerk, and others,
(fn. 108) and from this time it was held with the manor of Aston
Clinton (fn. 109) (q.v.).
......
The manor of OKE was apparently in the parish of Aston Clinton, but it
is only mentioned twice in the 14th and 15th centuries. John Rose and
his wife Elizabeth held the manors of Chiverey and Oke in 1389. (fn.
181) Thomas St. Clare also held the manor of Oke in 1424, (fn. 182)
but it is not mentioned again in the descent of the manor of Aston
Chiverey.
From: 'The parishes of Aylesbury hundred: Aston Clinton', A History of
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=62779&strquery=aston
clinton Date accessed: 03 April 2012.
1. The marriage between Alice de Mohun & (1) William de Clinton, (2)
Robert de Beauchamp, discussed previously in SGM, is certainly
reversed in the above. Yet apparently there was some transaction that
happened between William de Clinton (probably the one who d. bef.
1196) & Reynold de Mohun (who was of age in 1204 & m. Alice de
Briwere). This transaction led to the above misinterpretation. The
source is: "(81) Assize R. 57, m. 8 d.; 58, m. 6 d. The relationship
of Alice to William de Montagu is omitted in the Assize R., but in a
rental of the reign of Edward III the grantis said to have been made
by William to his son with his wife; P.R.O. Rentals and Surv. 72."
2. The William de Clinton who m. Alice de Mohun must be the one who
was of age by 1219 and not heard of after 1228. And then who was
Nicia de Clinton, his presumed widow, who held Aston Chiverey until
1246. Was this Alice de Mohun (Alicia-->Nicia?), who held the manor
until William's son William "de Paris" came of age in 1247? William
obviously had a wife prior to Alice de Mohun (he was c30 years older
than Alice), and his son William was born by 1226. And it wasn't the
son William "de Paris" who m. Alice because he alive in 1252.
3. What was the relationship between Alice de Mohun Clinton Beauchamp
and James de Audley. Did he m. a daughter of William & Alice (or
William's 1st wife).
4. Susan Johanson, in her rootsweb site, states that James de Audley
m. Alice de Hoke of the Oke manor mentioned above. As indicated above
Oke & Aston Chiverey both ended up being held by James' descendants.
Title: NeHGSR 139:283-287
Text: Maternal Ancestry of Governor Thomas Dudley: St. Clair and
Audley Lines
5. VCH-Bucks is incorrect in having two sisters of Edmund de Bereford
involved in the Audley/St Clair descent. According to VCH-Warwick
(Shotteswell Manor) & Magnum Britannia (Measham Manor in Repton,
Derbyshire)both on www.british-history.ac.uk, Margaret de Bereford was
the sister who m. James de Audley (son of James & Alice de Hoke) and
had a daughter (Susan Johanson has her as "Alice de Audley") who m.
John St. Clair, bringing the property into the St. Clair family.
6. James de Audley was of age by 1261/2 (or possibly even by 1247).
It is difficult to fit him into the main line Audley family. The name
James is so common within it, that all of the slots seem to be taken.
7. Apparently Keats-Rohan, DD, p. 403-4, identifies a William de
Clinton, son of Jordan, son of William, son of Geoffrey de Clinton
(the younger). This would seem to fit with the William son of Jordan
de Clinton mentioned above, who d. by 1196. However given that
William was of age by 1193, it would seem chronologically that the
eldest William would be son of Geoffrey (the elder) & Lasceline. I
don't have a ready copy of DD to check it out.
Again, any comments, answers, etc. would be appreciated.
Jim Weber
This is the pedigree as I have it based on the below links-
Miss Audley (daughter of William Audley)married John St. Clair, their son Philip St. Clair married Margaret Lovaine.
Miss Audley's pedigree-
William Audley d. 1367 married Joan
James Audley of Aston Clinton d. about 1335 married Margaret Bereford (daughter of William & Margaret Plessis)
James Audley married to Alice of Hoke d. 1342. I believe her name was Alice of Oke because she held Oke manor
James Audley d. 1272 his mistress Alice Mohun (daughter of Reynold/Reginald. Mohun & Hawise). Alice Mohun was also married to William Clinton & Robert Beauchamp.
https://books.google.com/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=Alice+Mohun+Beauchamp+james+audley&source=bl&ots=qxEqDC5ihi&sig=ACfU3U0dlm0_es72YAWRpunfrv4N3_CDpQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj0usHZqpfyAhUHHM0KHY84BJwQ6AF6BAgbEAM#v=onepage&q=Alice%20Mohun%20Beauchamp%20james%20audley&f=false
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/bucks/vol2/pp312-319
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/oxon/vol6/pp168-173
https://books.google.com/books?id=8JcbV309c5UC&pg=RA2-PA44&lpg=RA2-PA44&dq=Sir+John+St.Clair,+of+Aldham+St.Cleres&source=bl&ots=kxjKGSNPd5&sig=ACfU3U1KDM5SpDvWEVPwuYqqTP7oY4uk0A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwifz8ODxZXyAhW2KVkFHeGDDW0Q6AF6BAgNEAM#v=onepage&q=Sir%20John%20St.Clair%2C%20of%20Aldham%20St.Cleres&f=false
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079307&view=1up&seq=378&skin=2021
Will Johnson
2021-08-07 15:49:59 UTC
Permalink
I would not assume that Nicia was holding in dower

Rosie Bevan sent me a private email ten years ago, where she believed that Nicia whose own heir was a Sir William de Paris, was actually a daughter of William de Clinton

Therefore the land she held was probably a marriage gift, not dower
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