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Discussion:
Horatio Somerby
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Julie Stew
2020-07-10 23:28:30 UTC
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Is there a list, or reference to a list, of actual pedigrees that H.A. Somerby actually “faked”?

People keep telling me my family’s pedigree is fake because Horatio Somerby but I cannot find evidence that he ever wrote one for my family. And the source they provide says, basically, because Horatio Somerby.

Just throwing this out to the universe...thank you for your consideration!
Julie Stew
2020-07-10 23:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julie Stew
Is there a list, or reference to a list, of actual pedigrees that H.A. Somerby actually “faked”?
People keep telling me my family’s pedigree is fake because Horatio Somerby but I cannot find evidence that he ever wrote one for my family. And the source they provide says, basically, because Horatio Somerby.
Just throwing this out to the universe...thank you for your consideration!
HG Somerby
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-07-11 00:12:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julie Stew
Post by Julie Stew
Is there a list, or reference to a list, of actual pedigrees that H.A. Somerby actually “faked”?
People keep telling me my family’s pedigree is fake because Horatio Somerby but I cannot find evidence that he ever wrote one for my family. And the source they provide says, basically, because Horatio Somerby.
Just throwing this out to the universe...thank you for your consideration!
HG Somerby
Could you, please, clarify us? What connection in your ancestry is claimed to have been descended forged by Horatio Gates Somerby?
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-07-11 00:14:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julie Stew
Post by Julie Stew
Is there a list, or reference to a list, of actual pedigrees that H.A. Somerby actually “faked”?
People keep telling me my family’s pedigree is fake because Horatio Somerby but I cannot find evidence that he ever wrote one for my family. And the source they provide says, basically, because Horatio Somerby.
Just throwing this out to the universe...thank you for your consideration!
HG Somerby
Could you, please, provide us more details? What specific connection in your ancestry is claimed to have been forged by Horatio Gates Somerby?
Hans Vogels
2020-07-11 09:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Julie Stew
Post by Julie Stew
Is there a list, or reference to a list, of actual pedigrees that H.A. Somerby actually “faked”?
People keep telling me my family’s pedigree is fake because Horatio Somerby but I cannot find evidence that he ever wrote one for my family. And the source they provide says, basically, because Horatio Somerby.
Just throwing this out to the universe...thank you for your consideration!
HG Somerby
Could you, please, provide us more details? What specific connection in your ancestry is claimed to have been forged by Horatio Gates Somerby?
Google: Horatio Gates Somerby and this comes up top.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Horatio_Gates_Somerby_Fraud

Hans Vogels
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-07-11 10:07:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans Vogels
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Julie Stew
Post by Julie Stew
Is there a list, or reference to a list, of actual pedigrees that H.A. Somerby actually “faked”?
People keep telling me my family’s pedigree is fake because Horatio Somerby but I cannot find evidence that he ever wrote one for my family. And the source they provide says, basically, because Horatio Somerby.
Just throwing this out to the universe...thank you for your consideration!
HG Somerby
Could you, please, provide us more details? What specific connection in your ancestry is claimed to have been forged by Horatio Gates Somerby?
Google: Horatio Gates Somerby and this comes up top.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Horatio_Gates_Somerby_Fraud
Hans Vogels
Thing is, Julie Stew didn't tell us what specific connection in her ancestry is claimed to have been forged by Horatio Gates Somerby. Thus, we can't check if it's there.
Joe
2020-07-13 22:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Julie Stew
People keep telling me my family’s pedigree is fake because Horatio Somerby but I cannot find evidence that he ever wrote one for my family. And the source they provide says, basically, because Horatio Somerby.
Thing is, Julie Stew didn't tell us what specific connection in her ancestry is claimed to have been forged by Horatio Gates Somerby. Thus, we can't check if it's there.
Julie Stewart is trying to show that the Great Migration immigrant John Gage of Boston/Ipswich was the son of John Gage, 1st Baronet and his wife Penelope Darcy. Penelope was the daughter of Thomas Darcy, 1st Earl Rivers and so has a rather nice ancestry including to Edward III.

Julie, John Gage is not on the list of H.G. Somerby Frauds because there are any absolute proven forgeries or because Somerby wrote on the Gates ancestry, but because this ancestry has proven false and this ancestry was “on the authority of the late Horatio Somerby.” Whether intentional or not, a false pedigree researched by Somerby = assumed fraud.

With regard to some of the specifics:
There is absolutely no actual evidence to link John Gage of Stoneham, Essex with the immigrant John Gage. This is enough to break the line without having anyone bother to disprove it.

John Gage Bt and Penelope Darcy had a son John. However, this son John Gage of Stoneham has been shown to have married Mary Baker, lived his entire life in England, and died testate in 1688 without issue. He cannot by the immigrant.

The Visitations of Suffolk state that John Gage, the son of John Gage Bt and Penelope Darcy, died without issue. He cannot by the immigrant.

John Gage of Massachusetts deposed he was aged 58 in 1662; John Gage Bt and Penelope Darcy were married in 1611 so they cannot be the parents of someone born c1604.

John Gage was a typical Puritan farmer who came over in the Winthrop Fleet in 1630. It is unlikely he is the grandson of Thomas, Earl Rivers.
There are better candidates. Specifically, John Gage bp 21 April 1606 in Kersey, Suffolk (not far from Groton, Suffolk, the home of John Winthrop).
print...@gmail.com
2020-07-21 04:28:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Julie Stew
People keep telling me my family’s pedigree is fake because Horatio Somerby but I cannot find evidence that he ever wrote one for my family. And the source they provide says, basically, because Horatio Somerby.
Thing is, Julie Stew didn't tell us what specific connection in her ancestry is claimed to have been forged by Horatio Gates Somerby. Thus, we can't check if it's there.
Julie Stewart is trying to show that the Great Migration immigrant John Gage of Boston/Ipswich was the son of John Gage, 1st Baronet and his wife Penelope Darcy. Penelope was the daughter of Thomas Darcy, 1st Earl Rivers and so has a rather nice ancestry including to Edward III.
Julie, John Gage is not on the list of H.G. Somerby Frauds because there are any absolute proven forgeries or because Somerby wrote on the Gates ancestry, but because this ancestry has proven false and this ancestry was “on the authority of the late Horatio Somerby.” Whether intentional or not, a false pedigree researched by Somerby = assumed fraud.
There is absolutely no actual evidence to link John Gage of Stoneham, Essex with the immigrant John Gage. This is enough to break the line without having anyone bother to disprove it.
John Gage Bt and Penelope Darcy had a son John. However, this son John Gage of Stoneham has been shown to have married Mary Baker, lived his entire life in England, and died testate in 1688 without issue. He cannot by the immigrant.
The Visitations of Suffolk state that John Gage, the son of John Gage Bt and Penelope Darcy, died without issue. He cannot by the immigrant.
John Gage of Massachusetts deposed he was aged 58 in 1662; John Gage Bt and Penelope Darcy were married in 1611 so they cannot be the parents of someone born c1604.
John Gage was a typical Puritan farmer who came over in the Winthrop Fleet in 1630. It is unlikely he is the grandson of Thomas, Earl Rivers.
There are better candidates. Specifically, John Gage bp 21 April 1606 in Kersey, Suffolk (not far from Groton, Suffolk, the home of John Winthrop).
print...@gmail.com
2020-07-21 22:34:31 UTC
Permalink
Family history aside, the “facts” don’t add up, the wills don’t match, and the same “proof” — evidently dropped at every opportunity — is circular, based on two questionable bits of information: The Visitations of Suffolk, and “On the authority of Somerby.”

(Joe: As I’ve noted more than once, each version of the “Visitations” contain a different story for John Gage, the son. I could point out that this is odd, especially since it is the crux of the argument that’s flung all over the place at every opportunity, but I don’t feel this is my burden — I will leave it to the experts who keep using it to beat up and shout down family histories. You can tell me which version is correct, and we can take it from there. Or we can all agree this is probably not the most reliable source of authoritative information and stop citing it.)

As this punitive activity appears to chase me no matter the forum, I will respond to the others this way: Thank you for responding so quickly — I considered this a shot in the dark, and I am grateful for your prompt replies.

Family tradition has it that our John Gage, who arrived with Winthrop’s Fleet in 1630, was the son of “John Gage of Firle.” No big deal, just an interesting tidbit. It wasn’t until the 1940s that anyone from our branch took notice, and started corresponding with folks at Firle. It’s also the same time we began to see references to John of Firle’s fancy origin story, the illustrious careers of his forebears, etc.

It didn’t take long once the internet became easy to navigate that family trees started to pop up all over the place, and I started seeing a few references along a similar theme: YOU ARE NOT RELATED TO JOHN GAGE OF FIRLE! FAKE PEDIGREE! I was nonplussed, as we have always been secure in our knowledge. But when I started to see essays reciting the same information over and over again, I began to get annoyed.

There is a reference that pops out every time somebody wants to “dis” our lineage that refers to something along the lines of: “on the authority of Horatio Somerby, John Gage of Ipswich was the son of John Gage of Firle.” I have never seen a citation for this reference; the sources that accompany the comment either do not reference Somerby, or do not reference a pedigree of any kind.

But it got me curious, and if Somerby DID make a pedigree for the Gage family, it must exist somewhere. WikiTree has a long list of pedigrees they’ve attributed to Somerby, but I have been unable to locate more than a handful of them; there are only seven at the Library of Congress. As WikiTree seeks to set the record straight, it would be tremendously helpful to me if I could read Mr. Somerby’s work for myself; and if he never referenced my family name, I would like to know that, too. Hence the search for a list of his “authorities/fake pedigrees.”

At the time Somerby was creating his masterpieces, Firle was in possession of a completely different branch of the family; any records Somerby might have used to fabricate a story would have put the progeny of Sir John at Hengrave, in Suffolk (not Firle, in Sussex), as did all of the Gage pedigrees in publication at the time. And from what I’ve read, Hengrave was much grander than Firle, so if one wanted to fake up a family history, that estate would be a better setting, especially because (according the Visitations, et al.) the place was packed with family — sometimes 100 at a time — and would be very easy for a ne’er do well genealogist to “sneak” someone in. Indeed, Somerby’s “work” was presumably based on the same materials we’re referencing today, which are overflowing with prestigious John Gage’s all over England. Every Gage who had sons seemed to have a John.

In my quest to “prove” my lineage, I want check every box, and chasing down the Somerby reference seems a good, tangible place to start. I’m already feeling like Carrie Mathison.

Joe, where I am concerned, I would really appreciate you reserving any comments on this matter, in this forum, or anywhere else besides WikiTree, where you have already made your opinions clear. No offense, but I don’t want to have to defend every arrow every time I ask a question.
print...@gmail.com
2020-07-21 22:41:26 UTC
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Yes, this is the list that contains alleged fraudulent pedigrees, with no evidence to suggest they are all fraudulent. As WikiTree strives to include only accurate, proven information, I want to read Somerby’s citations on these matters as it pertains to my ancestor. Unfortunately, WikiTree doesn’t include accurate citations for mine. And while Burke recognizes the claim, WikiTree does not, although they do acknowledge that my ancestor’s father had two sons named Henry, one born before his father was married to his mother, at the ripe age of 10.
joseph cook
2020-07-11 01:26:25 UTC
Permalink
I don't know of any authoritative list of Horatio Gates Somerby works; like the other notorious gentleman of his age, Gustav Anjou, much of his work was for private clients and limited printing.

They were not the only persons of their time taking advantage of the genealogy fad in the 19th century and people's desire to pay to have "illustrious" ancestors or at least an interesting story.

Your families pedigree is real or not based on facts for each generation. If all you have is a piece of paper with names on it, it doesn't really say anything about the validity of the lines described at all unfortunately.

--Joe COok
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