Discussion:
Sir Gerald Conyers of Copped Hall
(too old to reply)
Will Johnson
2021-04-08 18:01:17 UTC
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Here we see

https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00129547&tree=LEO

that Gerald Conyers who was Sheriff of London in 1719
Leo has no ancestry for him

He was Gerard /Conyers/ of Copped Hall, co Essex; G
His parents were

Tristram /Conyers/ of Copped Hall, co Essex; esq
Eldest son
living in 1683, dead by 1685

and
Winnifred /Gerard/
living in the marriage settlement 1685 of her daughter

The four grandparents were
William /Conyers/ of Copped Hall, co Essex
b 1586 d 1659

Mary /Harvey/
daughter of Francis /Harvey/ , Knt, Justice of the King's Bench

Gilbert /Gerard/ of Harrow-on-the-Hill, co Mdx; Knt < 1638; 1st Bnt 1620
bur 20 Jan 1669/1670

Mary /Barrington/
bur 4 May 1666 Harrow
Will Johnson
2021-04-08 18:05:16 UTC
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Tristram Conyers and Winnifred Gerard
were married
18 Apr 1647
St Christopher le Stocks, London (Batch M02064-1 wj)

They had a son John
6 Mar 1650
eldest son of his father
who must have d.v.p.s.p.m.

another son
Gerard /Conyers/ of Copped Hall, co Essex; G
who is called eldest or sole son which is clearly incorrect

a daughter Winnifred /Conyers/
bap 11 Jul 1658 Middlesex
who d.v.m

and a daugheter Mary Conyers
who married
Strange /Jocelyn/ , esq 1685
Eldest son and heir (so-said in 1685)

son of
Robert /Jocelyn/ of Hyde Hall, co Hert; 1st Bnt
and
Jane /Strange/ living in 1685
Will Johnson
2021-04-08 19:56:30 UTC
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William Conyers (1586-1659) of Copped Hall
was the son of Robert Conyers of London, Merchant
and Blanche Ducke

Blanche was the heiress of her brother Dunstan Ducke of Putney, Surrey; esq who had d.s.p. but was "aged 21y2m" in 1593

Their mother Anne Watson was the daughter of William Watson of London merchant he died 1559
and William Watson's wife was Jane Stanney, the second of his three wives

Anne had a sister Blanche Watson who was married three times, but most importantly at this moment her last husband was

Thomas /Skinner/ of London; Alderman; Lord Mayor 1596; W

This Thomas had loaned an *enormous* sum of money to Oxford and by this, acquired some of Oxford's estates, but in particular, for my present purposes his estate at Lavenham

This is how we have, much later, a marriage between Jane Elwes (bap 1602), daughter of Gervase Elwes Lieutenant of the Tower
and Thomas Skinner first son of Thomas Skinner "of Lavenham"

This is how he got Lavenham
Will Johnson
2021-04-08 20:10:57 UTC
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With over two decades of research, it is rare that I get *new* information about anyone who has a Cecil number of 6 or lower.

However Elizabeth Skinner who m William /Smythe/ of London; Knt 1601; MP Aylesbury 1604; Ho
is herself a Cecil5

Her father is given variously as Thomas Skinner of London, Thomas Skinner Alderman
So now I identify him exactly as this

Thomas /Skinner/ of London; Alderman; Lord Mayor 1596; W
born 1531/1532
died 30 Dec 1596; "in his 65th year"; Will dated 28 Dec 1596

Other than Blanche Watson, whom he did not marry before 1580, it's clear he had an earlier wife although I do not yet know who she is.
His will gives three sons and a *married* daughter "Elizabeth Smith"

Would anyone know who was, Thomas, first wife?
Or Go Fish?
Mark Jennings
2021-04-08 21:33:28 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
With over two decades of research, it is rare that I get *new* information about anyone who has a Cecil number of 6 or lower.
However Elizabeth Skinner who m William /Smythe/ of London; Knt 1601; MP Aylesbury 1604; Ho
is herself a Cecil5
Her father is given variously as Thomas Skinner of London, Thomas Skinner Alderman
So now I identify him exactly as this
Thomas /Skinner/ of London; Alderman; Lord Mayor 1596; W
born 1531/1532
died 30 Dec 1596; "in his 65th year"; Will dated 28 Dec 1596
Other than Blanche Watson, whom he did not marry before 1580, it's clear he had an earlier wife although I do not yet know who she is.
His will gives three sons and a *married* daughter "Elizabeth Smith"
Would anyone know who was, Thomas, first wife?
Or Go Fish?
The Visitation of London, 1568 with additions (Harl Soc I, 1869), p 86 says that Sir Thomas Skinner had three wives, and other than Blanche Watson names one as "- daughter of - Thorne - arms: or, on a pile sable a griffin segreant of the field". It doesn't say which wife was mother of his children.
Will Johnson
2021-04-08 22:09:42 UTC
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Thanks for that Mark.

I'm not sure is this item is a true complaint or one of those legal fictions but it seems from that date that both of the eldest two sons had to be adults by 1600

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C13448138
Will Johnson
2021-04-08 22:17:00 UTC
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The 1568 Visitation does not have husbands for the daughters but it's clear from his will that they were

Elizabeth Skinner m Smythe (William /Smythe/ of London; Knt 1601; MP Aylesbury 1604; Ho bap 1568 d 1620)
Anne Skinner m John Barnes, both named in the will
Julian Skinner m a Mr Wynne
Mark Jennings
2021-04-08 22:24:44 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
The 1568 Visitation does not have husbands for the daughters but it's clear from his will that they were
Elizabeth Skinner m Smythe (William /Smythe/ of London; Knt 1601; MP Aylesbury 1604; Ho bap 1568 d 1620)
William Smythe, esquire, of St Clement Danes, London, sought a licence from the Bishop of London, 12 May 1593 to marry Elizabeth, daughter of Ald. Thomas Skynner of St Mary Magdalene, Milk Street, London
John Higgins
2021-04-08 23:06:35 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
Tristram Conyers and Winnifred Gerard
were married
18 Apr 1647
St Christopher le Stocks, London (Batch M02064-1 wj)
They had a son John
6 Mar 1650
eldest son of his father
who must have d.v.p.s.p.m.
another son
Gerard /Conyers/ of Copped Hall, co Essex; G
who is called eldest or sole son which is clearly incorrect
a daughter Winnifred /Conyers/
bap 11 Jul 1658 Middlesex
who d.v.m
and a daugheter Mary Conyers
who married
Strange /Jocelyn/ , esq 1685
Eldest son and heir (so-said in 1685)
son of
Robert /Jocelyn/ of Hyde Hall, co Hert; 1st Bnt
and
Jane /Strange/ living in 1685
John Conyers, son of Tristram Conyers, certainly did not d.v.p.s.p.m. as you suggest. He had quite a number of children (most of whom d. vp), and his male line didn't die out until the mid-19th century. Here is his HOP bio:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1690-1715/member/conyers-john-1650-1725
and his father's HOP bio:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1660-1690/member/conyers-tristram-1619-84
Will Johnson
2021-04-08 23:21:23 UTC
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In Dunstan's 1650 will he gives to "Thomas Ducke, my brother" twenty pounds

Perhaps this was a half-brother or illegitimate as Blanche is called his "heiress" by Burke

https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_genealogical_and_heraldic_dictionary_o/9mNHAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22dunstan%20ducke%22&pg=PA252&printsec=frontcover&bsq=%22dunstan%20ducke%22



He does make Blanche his sole executrix.
Will Johnson
2021-04-08 23:57:25 UTC
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From the Hop bio we see that Tristram was born 5 Sep 1619
Making his wife Winnifred about the same age and throwing eggs against the wall, I get this odd entry

Wynnifreed Gerard bap 26 Aug 1623 Harrow-on-the-Hill, Middlesex (Batch P01329-1 wj)
Her father is given as "Bilberd Gerard"

I suggest this is her, with her father *Gilbert*
Brad Verity
2021-04-09 06:57:09 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
Tristram Conyers and Winnifred Gerard
were married
18 Apr 1647
St Christopher le Stocks, London (Batch M02064-1 wj)
They had a son John
6 Mar 1650
eldest son of his father
who must have d.v.p.s.p.m.
another son
Gerard /Conyers/ of Copped Hall, co Essex; G
who is called eldest or sole son which is clearly incorrect
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1690-1715/member/conyers-john-1650-1725
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1660-1690/member/conyers-tristram-1619-84
So, part of the problem here is that Ruvigny, in the Supplementary Table IV to the Clarence volume (p. 510 in the Essex volume), makes the John Conyers of Copt Hall (1650-1725), husband of Mary Lee (d. 1702), the son of his brother Sir Gerard Conyers of Copt Hall (d. 1737) and his wife Anne Lethieullier, rather than the eldest son of their parents Tristram Conyers of Walthamstow (1619-1684) and Winifred Gerard (1623-1694).

Mary Conyers (d. 1731), wife of Sir Strange Jocelyn, 2nd Baronet of Hyde Hall (c.1661-1734), is also shown by Ruvigny in the same Supplementary Table IV, to have been the daughter of Sir Gerard Conyers (d. 1737) and Anne Lethieullier. I wonder if she, as well, was instead the sibling of Sir Gerard Conyers, and daughter of their parents Tristram Conyers (1619-1684) and Winifred Gerard (1623-1694)?

Cheers, ----Brad
John Higgins
2021-04-09 16:27:27 UTC
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Post by Brad Verity
Post by Will Johnson
Tristram Conyers and Winnifred Gerard
were married
18 Apr 1647
St Christopher le Stocks, London (Batch M02064-1 wj)
They had a son John
6 Mar 1650
eldest son of his father
who must have d.v.p.s.p.m.
another son
Gerard /Conyers/ of Copped Hall, co Essex; G
who is called eldest or sole son which is clearly incorrect
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1690-1715/member/conyers-john-1650-1725
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1660-1690/member/conyers-tristram-1619-84
So, part of the problem here is that Ruvigny, in the Supplementary Table IV to the Clarence volume (p. 510 in the Essex volume), makes the John Conyers of Copt Hall (1650-1725), husband of Mary Lee (d. 1702), the son of his brother Sir Gerard Conyers of Copt Hall (d. 1737) and his wife Anne Lethieullier, rather than the eldest son of their parents Tristram Conyers of Walthamstow (1619-1684) and Winifred Gerard (1623-1694).
Mary Conyers (d. 1731), wife of Sir Strange Jocelyn, 2nd Baronet of Hyde Hall (c.1661-1734), is also shown by Ruvigny in the same Supplementary Table IV, to have been the daughter of Sir Gerard Conyers (d. 1737) and Anne Lethieullier. I wonder if she, as well, was instead the sibling of Sir Gerard Conyers, and daughter of their parents Tristram Conyers (1619-1684) and Winifred Gerard (1623-1694)?
Cheers, ----Brad
I think Ruvigny got things confused in this case. The HOP bios of John Conyers (m. Mary Lee) and his father Tristram make that relationship very clear. The Stirnet website has a good pedigree of the family. citing William Berry's "County Genealogies: Pedigrees of Essex Families" which also shows those relationships. (Unfortunately the book itself is very rare, and I can't find a digital copy.) And, yes, Mary Conyers who m. Sir Strange Jocelyn is a sister of both John Conyers of Copt Hall and his brother Sir Gerard Conyers, Lord Mayor of London.
Mark Jennings
2021-04-09 17:36:25 UTC
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I think Ruvigny got things confused in this case. The HOP bios of John Conyers (m. Mary Lee) and his father Tristram make that relationship very clear. The Stirnet website has a good pedigree of the family. citing William Berry's "County Genealogies: Pedigrees of Essex Families" which also shows those relationships. (Unfortunately the book itself is very rare, and I can't find a digital copy.)
Try here:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101075683555&view=1up&seq=127
John Higgins
2021-04-09 17:43:40 UTC
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Post by Mark Jennings
I think Ruvigny got things confused in this case. The HOP bios of John Conyers (m. Mary Lee) and his father Tristram make that relationship very clear. The Stirnet website has a good pedigree of the family. citing William Berry's "County Genealogies: Pedigrees of Essex Families" which also shows those relationships. (Unfortunately the book itself is very rare, and I can't find a digital copy.)
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101075683555&view=1up&seq=127
Yes, this will serve quite well in the absence of Berry's Essex Genealogies. Thanks for reminding me of this....
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