Discussion:
CP Correction/Addition: Marriages and death date of Sir Nicholas Poyntz, 4th Lord Poyntz (living 1363)
(too old to reply)
c***@gmail.com
2019-01-20 19:15:25 UTC
Permalink
Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage 10 (1945): 676 (sub Poyntz) includes an account of Sir Nicholas Poyntz, 4th Lord Poyntz (born about 1320). According to the author, he married (1st) before 13 October 1333 Eleanor _____ and (2nd) before 20 Jan. 1367/8 Eve de Stokes. The exact death date of Sir Nicholas Poyntz appears to be unknown. Complete Peerage says only that Sir Nicholas was living in 1359, when he fought under the Earl of Salisbury, and died "before Michaelmas term 1376." Here are the specific statements found in Complete Peerage:

"Nicholas (de Poyntz), Lord Poyntz ... In 1353 he returned prematurely from service in Brittany; was going abroad with the Earl of Salisbury in 1355; in 1358 served in the garrison of Brest, and in 1359 again fought under the Earl of Salisbury ... He married, 1stly, before 13 Oct. 1333, when about 13, Eleanor (_____); and 2ndly, before 20 Jan. 1367/8, Eve de Stokes. He died before Michaelmas term 1376, when, according to modern doctrine, his Barony fell into abeyance between his two daughters and coheirs." END OF QUOTE

The evidence Complete Peerage supplies for Sir Nicholas' first marriage to Eleanor (_____) is Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1330–1334 (1893): 472, which record is a license for Nicholas' father, Hugh Poyntz, to grant Nicholas and his wife Eleanor and their heirs a moiety share of the manor of Hoo, Kent:

"Oct. 13. Licence for Hugh Poyntz to grant to Nicholas Poyntz, Eleanor his wife, and his heirs begotten of the body of Eleanor, a moiety of the manor of Hoo, held in chief; with remainder in default of such heirs to the grantor and his heirs." END OF QUOTE.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?num=472&u=1&seq=7&view=image&size=100&id=mdp.39015023267001

Regarding the maiden name and parentage of Eleanor, wife of Sir Nicholas Poyntz, I find that Gerard, Particular Description of Somerset (Somerset Rec. Soc. 15) (1900): 149–151 quotes from an inquisition dated 1442-1443 which identifies Eleanor, wife of Sir Nicholas Poyntz, as the daughter of John Erleigh, Knt.:

“Hugonem Pointz militem, qui cepit in uxorem Margaretam filiam domini Willmi Paveley militis domini de Brooke in Wilts, et habuerunt exitum Nicholaum Pointz militem, qui duxit Elianorum filiam domini Johannis Erleighe militis.” END OF QUOTE.

Gerard may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=90kJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA150

Elsewhere the published Visitation of Gloucester similarly identifies Eleanor, wife of Sir Nicholas Poyntz, as the daughter of John Erleghe, Knt.:

“Nicholaus Pointz miles d’n’s et Baro de Cory Mallet ob. 42 E. 3. = Elianora filia Joh’is Erleghe militis.”) [Reference: Chitting & Phillipot, Vis. of Gloucester 1623, 1569 & 1582–3 (H.S.P. 21) (1885): 130–135 (Poyntz ped.).

The above visitation may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=rrcwES8KqIgC&pg=PA132

Dugdale, Baronage,vol. ii, p. 2 likewise gives the same parentage for Eleanor Poyntz. As such, it appears that Eleanor, wife of Sir Nicholas Poyntz, was the daughter of John de Erleigh (or Erlegh, Earley, Erle), Knt., of Erlegh, Berkshire, Beckington, Durston, North Petherton, and Somerton-Parva, Somerset, etc., Sheriff of Somerset and Dorset, 1325–6, Knight of the Shire for Somerset, 1329–32, by his wife, Elizabeth.

Insofar as the alleged marriage of Sir Nicholas Poyntz and Eve de Stokes is concerned, Complete Peerage cites the following source for this marriage: Wrottesley, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls (1905): 208–209, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?num=208&u=1&seq=7&view=image&size=100&id=uc2.ark%3A%2F13960%2Ft6542rp7k&q1=Pedigrees+from+the+Plea+rolls

While Wrottesley does in fact state that Eve de Stokes was the wife of Sir Nicholas Poyntz, a review of the original 1399 lawsuit does not support this statement. Nicholas Poyntz and Eve de Stokes are named in the lawsuit alright, but Eve is not there called the wife of Nicholas Poyntz as Wrottesley alleges.

See the following weblink for the lawsuit:

Court of King’s Bench, KB27/550, image 310d (available at http://‌aalt.law.uh.edu/‌AALT3/‌R2/‌KB27no550/‌bKB27no550dorses/‌IMG_0310.htm).

In the course of my research, I've located three Common Pleas lawsuits which shed further light on the history of Sir Nicholas Poyntz, 4th Lord Poyntz. These lawsuits are as follows:

1. In Hilary term 1363 Nicholas Poynz Knt. sued _____ Hippe in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a trespass [vi et armis] at Broadway, Dorset.

See the following weblink:

Court of Common Pleas, CP40/412, image 686d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no412/bCP40no412dorses/IMG_0686.htm).

2. In Easter term 1371 John de Newburgh sued John son of Thomas de Neuburgh and Margaret his wife regarding two parts of the manor of East Lulworth, Dorset and also John Barry and Amice his wife and Eleanor, widow of Nicholas Poyns, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the third part of the said manor.

See the following weblink:

Court of Common Pleas, CP40/442, image 80f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no442/aCP40no442fronts/IMG_0080.htm).

3. In Hilary term 1374 Eleanor, widow of Nicholas Poyntz, sued Thomas Doffeld (whom Roger Buteshorn called to warranty) in the Court of Common Pleas, regarding the third part of one messuage and one carucate of land in Broadway, Dorset, which Eleanor claimed as her dower. Margaret, wife of John de Neuburgh, and Avice, wife of John Barre, daughters and heirs of Nicholas Poyntz, are named in a later part of this lawsuit.

See the following weblink for that lawsuit:

Court of Common Pleas, CP40/453, image 654f (available at http://‌aalt.law.uh.edu/‌AALT4/‌E3/‌CP40no453/‌aCP40no453fronts/‌IMG_0654.htm).

In summary, the first lawsuit above indicates that Sir Nicholas Poyntz was living in Hilary term 1363. The second lawsuit indicates that he was deceased before Easter term 1371. That narrows his possible death date.

The second and third lawsuits above indicate that Sir Nicholas Poyntz was survived by a widow, Eleanor, who was still living in Hilary term 1374. Since Nicholas Poyntz' known wife and known widow was named Eleanor, there is no reason to suppose that he had a later wife after he married Eleanor de Erleigh. In any case, he certainly did not marry Eve de Stokes as claimed by Wrottesley and Complete Peerage. The Eve de Stokes marriage is fictitious.

One last minor correction: I note that Complete Peerage refers to Sir Nicholas Poyntz as Sir Nicholas de Poyntz. Poyntz is a surname that does not take a "de" with it. As such, it is correct to call him Sir Nicholas Poyntz, not Sir Nicholas de Poyntz.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
c***@gmail.com
2019-07-09 16:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Dear Newsgroup ~

This is a followup to an earlier post regarding Sir Nicholas Poyntz, 4th Lord Poyntz. There appears to be no firm date of death of this individual.

In my earlier post, I provided evidence that Sir Nicholas was living as late as Hilary term 1363, and that he died before Easter term 1371. The evidence consists of two Common Pleas lawsuits which are abstracted below.

1. In Hilary term 1363 Nicholas Poynz Knt. sued _____ Hippe in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a trespass [vi et armis] at Broadway, Dorset.

Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/412, image 686d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no412/bCP40no412dorses/IMG_0686.htm).

2. In Easter term 1371 John de Newburgh sued John son of Thomas de Neuburgh and Margaret his wife regarding two parts of the manor of East Lulworth, Dorset and also John Barry and Amice his wife and Eleanor, widow of Nicholas Poyns, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the third part of the said manor.

Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/442, image 80f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no442/aCP40no442fronts/IMG_0080.htm).

I can now further narrow the date of death for Sir Nicholas Poyntz. The Common Pleas lawsuit below indicates that he was living as late as Hilary term 1368:

In Hilary term 1368 Alice Robegoyne sued Nicholas Poyntz, Knt., in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 100s.

Reference:

Court of Common Pleas, CP40/430, image 1024d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no430/bCP40no430dorses/IMG_1024.htm).

In summary, it appears that Sir Nicholas Poyntz, 4th Lord Poyntz, was living as late as Hilary term 1368. He died before Easter term 1371.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Loading...