Discussion:
The Discover of Capt. John Ireland's Royal Pedigree
(too old to reply)
Tripp Onnen
2013-07-28 22:16:57 UTC
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First of all, I would like to state that I am dedicating the discovery of Captain John Ireland’s Royal pedigree to my late grandfather, Vachel Paul Dorsey.

The story of how I discovered the pedigree of Capt. John Ireland is a lengthy one. I will try to make it as succinct as possible.

It suffices to say that it took many years a good bit of luck and some help from some wonderful people. My first clue to Capt. Ireland's background was a memoir written by my grandfather's 1st cousin, Thomas Ridgely Dorsey, in 1886. Cousin Thomas was a long time news editor for the Baltimore American and later the Baltimore Sun. My grandfather was a news reporter for the Sun and undoubtedly worked directly with cousin Thomas who had no children, nieces or nephews. I believe this is most likely how my grandfather came to inherit the memoir among other papers from that side of the family. The opening paragraph reads as follows:

“As far back as I can trace my lineage on my father’s side is Vachel Dorsey who is my father’s grandfather. He married miss Ireland daughter of an Englishman of high degree. During a public parade in England a Colonel under whom marched young Ireland insulted him. In those old times an insult meant instant apology or death. Young Ireland sent a challenge to the Colonel which the latter of course accepted as honor, which was then alone respected, bade him. Knowing that his challenge had been accepted young Ireland chartered a vessel on which he deposited men whom he could trust. At the appointed time the Colonel and young Ireland met in a room with their seconds. The doors were locked and the time was night. Awhile they practiced pass and ward till Ireland knew he held the Colonel at his mercy and the former said: 'Colonel we had better cease this strife, for it rests with me to give you life or death.' 'Kill and be damned!' was the Colonel’s reply and the noble Ireland said: ‘Between the third and fourth vest button you get it’ and the next instant the sword of Ireland pierced the Colonel’s heart. The latter fell dead into the arms of his seconds while the former departed on his vessel and sailed for America. He put up at the Carroll Manor in Howard County, Maryland. It was his daughter that married Vachel Dorsey…I will here say that my lineage can be traced back to the throne of England. But as yet I cannot get on the track that leads to the throne.”

Fortunately, Maryland marriage records give us a name for "miss Ireland" as we find that in 1786 Vachel Dorsey and Clementina Ireland were married by Rev. Charles Sewall, S.J. in Baltimore County. Though our family Bible does not record the death of Clementina Ireland Dorsey it does record the death of her elder sister, Elizabeth Ireland stating that she was “the daughter of John and Sarah Ireland" which provided me with the Christian name of "young Ireland" from my cousins memoir.

Armed with the notation in the family Bible as well as my knowledge of the fact that "the Carroll Manor" was another name for Doughoregan Manor the home of Charles Carroll of Annapolis and later his son, Charles Carroll the Signer I Googled "John Ireland" + "Charles Carroll" and at the top of the search results was a reference to "Princes of Ireland, Planters of Maryland" searching within the book I found what I was looking for in the second paragraph of page 239:

http://books.google.com/books?id=3glPliBVA8UC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA132&dq=%22john+ireland%22+%22charles+carroll%22&source=bl&ots=zbcFY7oKWG&sig=1rBrpeidcVKO6zNc1dRMSkJ1huc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yBbzUYy2O7Xj4AP0z4DADw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

"In addition to the overseers, a number of other white employees lived at Doohoragen. Rigg’s predecessor, Captain John Ireland, for whom the Carrolls had genuine affection, had by 1773 retired to Doohoragen’s smallest quarter, with only eight slaves. Born to a well-bred Yorkshire family whose estate had afforded him four to five hundred pounds a year, Ireland had misspent his youth. Marrying before his eighteenth year, he ran through his money; although some of his titled English relatives occasionally made minimal provision for him, he was reduced to soldiering for his livelihood in the French and Austrian armies. Ireland wound up in Maryland and went to work at Doohoragen, where his tireless labors won Papa’s (Charles Carroll of Annapolis) approbation. In the early 1770s, when Ireland’s health rendered him no longer equal to the job, Papa rewarded his loyal service by allowing him to continue living on the small quarter, taking care to relieve him of his responsibilities in a way that did not offend the old man: ‘ I had a good opportunity,’ he told Charley (Charles of Carrollton), ‘& I embraced it to Propose to Mr Ireland to move to His owne Plantation, I did it in such a manner that He was Pleased with it, I intend to ad to His House there a Snug & Warme roome for Him.’"

After reading this paragraph I began to give my cousins memoir a bit more attention as at least some of what he had written seemed to have credence. The footnote in "Planters" to the above paragraph led me to the Maryland Historical Society and eventually Dr. Mary Jeske the editor of the Carroll Papers who directed me to the three volume work "Dear Papa, Dear Charley" which is a superbly edited and compiled work that chronicles roughly thirty years of letters written back and forth from Charles Carroll of Annapolis (Papa) to his son, Charles Carroll of Carrollton (Charley).

There are innumerable references to Capt. John Ireland in the three volume work and from reading all of them it is abundantly clear that both "Papa" and "Charley" were deeply devoted to Captain Ireland. However, it was one particular letter written from father to son in 1761 when "Charley" was attending St. Omer's that opened the proverbial can of worms:

"17 September, 1761
Dr Charley,
I leave the inclosed to Sr Thos: Webb Open for yr Perusall, Having done that, you will seal & Deliver it, as I presume you are acquainted with him, If you are not acquainted with: him get Mr. Perkins to Deliver it. I shall send a Duplicate & triplicate of this to you, If one be delivered it will be Sufficient: keep the others by you. By my letter to Sr Thos: you will see that I have formerly Solicited him in favour of Mr. Ireland; I Proposed he should Advance 4 or 500 (pounds) To Purchase him a Seat of Land some slaves & to Enable him to Build & improve the Land. You must know that Mr. Ireland is Related to Sr Thos who was his Guardian, that he had an Estate in Yorkshire of 4 or 500 (pounds) a year which he indiscreetly Run thro having Maryed Before he was 18 Year old, & having been Severall years in the French and austrian Service, the latter he Quitted in 1745 for a Particular Reason: He is Polite well bred & very Agreable Gentleman, & altho his former Conduct may have Given Sr Thomas reason to be Displeased with him, His present wants & fruitless industry deserves his compassion - I have also formerly sollicited Lord Montague in favour of Mr Ireland, His Lordship was So Polite & Condescending as to answer My letters & to express a desier to Serve Mr Ireland, But his Ability not being Equall to his Inclination He gave me Hopes he would use his Interst with Sr Thos in Mr Irelands favour. If you have the Honr to be acquinted with his Lordship Pray put him in Mind of this - I also sollicited Mr Molineux Sr Thomas's Chaplain, He is an old Acquaintance of myne & promised to use what Interest he had to Serve Mr Ireland Pray put him in Mind of this Presenting my Respeccts to him, & let me know what steps he Took in Complyance with his Promise...

In the fore part of this letter you see what I wish to be done for Mr Ireland, you are Acquainted with Sr Thomas's Sons they were yr Fellow Collegians You may Perchance influence them to incline their Father to Assist him, neither they or their Father will Miss 4 or 500 Pounds, that Sum would make Ireland Happy & Independant it is shocking to see a Gentn: Reduced to Hard Labour Especially when he is a Man of Great Merit - I have Advanced a Great Deal of Money to Purchase a Pretty seat of Land for Mr Ireland within two Miles of my House at Elk Ridge."

Having a contemporary of Capt. Ireland speak of him and his background in this way was what truly peaked my interest. I now had names of his relatives in Yorkshire to go work with. A very quick internet search brought me to Stirnet where I found that Sir Thomas Webb was the son of Sir John Webb 3rd Baronet. On the same page I discovered that Sir Thomas had a younger sister, Barbara who married Anthony Browne, 6th Viscount Montague. I also discovered that several generations earlier Marina Webb, daughter of the 1st Baronet had married a William Ireland of Crofton.

This was back in 2008. I tried to go further on my own and couldn't with the resources I had at the time. Though I knew Capt. Ireland was related to these noble Yorkshire families I couldn't properly tie him in and what confused me further was that calculating the probable relationship between Capt. Ireland, Webb and Montague would have made Ireland a 2nd cousin which to me seemed far too distant a relationship for a monetary request. I tried hiring a few folks overseas who were very pricey and eventually my mind drifted to other projects occasionally Googling to see if anything new had been posted that might shed some light on the mystery. By and large, for about five years I found nothing. That was until March of this year I tried my hand at it again and through another Google search and found myself here: http://wwtn.history.qmul.ac.uk/ftrees/Webbe.pdf

Once there I discovered for the first time that William Ireland of Crofton and Mariana/Marina Webb(e) had left issue a daughter, Winifred and a son, Charles. Discovering further that Charles Ireland had been mentioned in the will of his cousin, Lady Mary Gerard made me curious if perhaps she mentioned more of William and Mariana's children in her will. That led me to the National Archives website where I was able to download a variety of other Webb(e)/Ireland wills that painted a very clear picture of the relationship between the Ireland and Webbe families.

The National Archives website also provides an index to a variety of chancery records. I ordered a number of those that seemed to involve the very Webb(e)/Ireland families that I was dealing with. I received them and was overwhelmed by both the handwriting and diction and eventually was blessed to find Susan Moore of Susan Moore Research http://www.susanmooreresearch.co.uk who is an expert in British Chancery records.

Through one particular chancery record (C 11/1389/28) Susan helped me to determine that William Ireland of Crofton and Mariana/Marina Webb(e) were the parents of Ralph, John, Charles, Winifred and Mary. Through a variety of Ireland/Webbe wills I also discovered that William and Mariana were the parents of another son, Francis who had died in 1705. The rest of the puzzle would be solved by probate records.

1. Francis Ireland's will, probated in 1705 and available on the National Archives website, left everything that Francis had received from "Sir John Webb my late uncle" to his "dear brother Charles Ireland." He also named his first cousin, Sir John Webb 2nd Baronet as his chief and sole executor.
Through the origins.net national wills index we also found the following:

2. Mary Ireland of the City of York, Spinster had her will probated in 1712 in which she mentioned her brothers, Charles and Ralph and named her brother John Ireland as her executor. She also mentioned her brother-in-law Anthony Champion. She then leaves legacy “To Isabell Jessop my servant £5 and such of my wearing apparel as I have mentioned to my brother John Ireland, in case the said Isabell do continue with me as my servant until my death.”

3. Ralph Ireland of the City of York, but late of Crofton co York, gent, had his will probated in 1724 it was short but informative:
Whereas upon settling and conveying my several manor lands tenements and hereditaments to trustees for payment of my debts and other encumbrances upon such settlement agreed upon to be paid and discharged thereout, it is hereby limited directed and appointed that the sum of £1,500 shall be raised and paid to me out of my several manors lands tenements and hereditaments at Crofton Birchwood Saintinley and Winterset in the said county of York and which as yet being unpaid and discharged I give and devise the said £1,500 as also all my personal estate whatsoever to my brother Mr John Ireland he paying thereout to his son John and to his daughters Mary, Elizabeth, Marina and Winifred 20s apiece to buy of them a ring and also £5 to my brother Charles Ireland for mourning

I do nominate and appoint my said brother John Ireland sole executor

Signed Ralph Ireland

4. The will of John Ireland of Crofton county York Esquire had his will probated in 1736. In it he leaves legacy to:
1. Daughter Mary Ireland
2. Daughter Elizabeth Ireland
3. Daughter Mariana Ireland
4. Son James Ireland
He mentions his “estate in lands tenements and herditaments” which he “received by the last will and testament of (his) late brother Ralph Ireland Esq deceased” which “will descend and comme at (his) decease to (his) eldest son John Ireland and his heirs.” He names the trustees of his estate as his “much respected friends Thomas Earl of Westmoreland, Sir John Webb Baronet, Ralph Brandling Esq and Isabella my wife…” He appointed John Ireland his “eldest son sole executor.”

The will was proved in February 1736 naming “Morgan Lowry of Leeds co York clockmaker, and Sir James Burdett of the city of York Baronet” as the sureties.

5. We found a curation bond for John Ireland a minor naming his mother, Isabella of Crofton and Thomas Shann of Wakefield as the sureties. The bond stated that young Ireland was a minor but over the age of 14. It was further stated that young Ireland was entitled to an estate of £300 per year on rent due the real estate of Crofton and that he would be entitled to this at the age of 21 or upon his marriage

6. Finally, on the origins site we found the marriage record of John Ireland to Isabel Jessop in 1712. As it turned out, John Ireland had married his sister’s servant!

The facts laid out in the above mentioned documents so closely mirrored the commentary of Charles Carroll of Annapolis that connecting Capt. John Ireland of Anne Arundel Co., to John Ireland son of John Ireland of Crofton Esq., was academic at this point.

I owe a tremendous amount of thanks to Dr. Mary Jeske and to the fantastic efforts of Susan Moore who helped me digest the chancery records and sift through the voluminous probate records. Without them I never would have been able to come to the conclusion that I have made. I am in the process of writing a much more scholastic version of this narrative but for now I wanted to share the story with the group.

Cheers!
Tripp Onnen
a***@gmail.com
2013-07-29 21:27:08 UTC
Permalink
very interesting -- I look forward to reading your article when it is published. Congrats.

Adrian Benjamin Burke
Nathan Murphy
2020-08-24 16:45:34 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
very interesting -- I look forward to reading your article when it is published. Congrats.
Adrian Benjamin Burke
I just spotted Onnen's royal descent article on John Ireland in the table of contents for the forthcoming Fall 2020 issue of The Genealogist. If I remember correct, Ireland has something like 22 descents from Edward III. https://www.facebook.com/The-Genealogist-152303334804884

Nathan
Tripp Onnen
2020-08-24 18:11:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nathan Murphy
Post by a***@gmail.com
very interesting -- I look forward to reading your article when it is published. Congrats.
Adrian Benjamin Burke
I just spotted Onnen's royal descent article on John Ireland in the table of contents for the forthcoming Fall 2020 issue of The Genealogist. If I remember correct, Ireland has something like 22 descents from Edward III. https://www.facebook.com/The-Genealogist-152303334804884
Nathan
Thanks, Nathan...and thanks for your guidance along the way!! I'm glad I was finally able to bring the article to fruition.

Cheers!
Tripp
joseph cook
2020-08-24 20:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nathan Murphy
Post by a***@gmail.com
very interesting -- I look forward to reading your article when it is published. Congrats.
Adrian Benjamin Burke
I just spotted Onnen's royal descent article on John Ireland in the table of contents for the forthcoming Fall 2020 issue of The Genealogist. If I remember correct, Ireland has something like 22 descents from Edward III. https://www.facebook.com/The-Genealogist-152303334804884
Where can one find the table of contents for the Spring and Fall 2020 issues of The Genealogist?
Thanks,
Joe C
Nathan Murphy
2020-08-24 20:15:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by joseph cook
Post by Nathan Murphy
Post by a***@gmail.com
very interesting -- I look forward to reading your article when it is published. Congrats.
Adrian Benjamin Burke
I just spotted Onnen's royal descent article on John Ireland in the table of contents for the forthcoming Fall 2020 issue of The Genealogist. If I remember correct, Ireland has something like 22 descents from Edward III. https://www.facebook.com/The-Genealogist-152303334804884
Where can one find the table of contents for the Spring and Fall 2020 issues of The Genealogist?
Thanks,
Joe C
Joe, They post them on the Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/The-Genealogist-152303334804884/
joseph cook
2020-08-24 23:10:16 UTC
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Post by Nathan Murphy
Joe, They post them on the Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/The-Genealogist-152303334804884/
Oh great! I didn't know they had a FB page; last time I had an article published there, there wasn't even an e-mail address; snail-mail only for correspondance.

THanks,
--Joe Cook
John Higgins
2020-08-25 04:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by joseph cook
Post by Nathan Murphy
Joe, They post them on the Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/The-Genealogist-152303334804884/
Oh great! I didn't know they had a FB page; last time I had an article published there, there wasn't even an e-mail address; snail-mail only for correspondance.
THanks,
--Joe Cook
They apparently haven't yet gotten around to updating their web page with the 2020 issues. A rather strange omission - even if issue 1 for 2020 has been on Facebook since February.

https://fasg.org/the-genealogist/complete-contents/
lancast...@gmail.com
2020-08-24 17:40:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tripp Onnen
First of all, I would like to state that I am dedicating the discovery of Captain John Ireland’s Royal pedigree to my late grandfather, Vachel Paul Dorsey.
The story of how I discovered the pedigree of Capt. John Ireland is a lengthy one. I will try to make it as succinct as possible.
“As far back as I can trace my lineage on my father’s side is Vachel Dorsey who is my father’s grandfather. He married miss Ireland daughter of an Englishman of high degree. During a public parade in England a Colonel under whom marched young Ireland insulted him. In those old times an insult meant instant apology or death. Young Ireland sent a challenge to the Colonel which the latter of course accepted as honor, which was then alone respected, bade him. Knowing that his challenge had been accepted young Ireland chartered a vessel on which he deposited men whom he could trust. At the appointed time the Colonel and young Ireland met in a room with their seconds. The doors were locked and the time was night. Awhile they practiced pass and ward till Ireland knew he held the Colonel at his mercy and the former said: 'Colonel we had better cease this strife, for it rests with me to give you life or death.' 'Kill and be damned!' was the Colonel’s reply and the noble Ireland said: ‘Between the third and fourth vest button you get it’ and the next instant the sword of Ireland pierced the Colonel’s heart. The latter fell dead into the arms of his seconds while the former departed on his vessel and sailed for America. He put up at the Carroll Manor in Howard County, Maryland. It was his daughter that married Vachel Dorsey…I will here say that my lineage can be traced back to the throne of England. But as yet I cannot get on the track that leads to the throne.”
Fortunately, Maryland marriage records give us a name for "miss Ireland" as we find that in 1786 Vachel Dorsey and Clementina Ireland were married by Rev. Charles Sewall, S.J. in Baltimore County. Though our family Bible does not record the death of Clementina Ireland Dorsey it does record the death of her elder sister, Elizabeth Ireland stating that she was “the daughter of John and Sarah Ireland" which provided me with the Christian name of "young Ireland" from my cousins memoir.
http://books.google.com/books?id=3glPliBVA8UC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA132&dq=%22john+ireland%22+%22charles+carroll%22&source=bl&ots=zbcFY7oKWG&sig=1rBrpeidcVKO6zNc1dRMSkJ1huc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yBbzUYy2O7Xj4AP0z4DADw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
"In addition to the overseers, a number of other white employees lived at Doohoragen. Rigg’s predecessor, Captain John Ireland, for whom the Carrolls had genuine affection, had by 1773 retired to Doohoragen’s smallest quarter, with only eight slaves. Born to a well-bred Yorkshire family whose estate had afforded him four to five hundred pounds a year, Ireland had misspent his youth. Marrying before his eighteenth year, he ran through his money; although some of his titled English relatives occasionally made minimal provision for him, he was reduced to soldiering for his livelihood in the French and Austrian armies. Ireland wound up in Maryland and went to work at Doohoragen, where his tireless labors won Papa’s (Charles Carroll of Annapolis) approbation. In the early 1770s, when Ireland’s health rendered him no longer equal to the job, Papa rewarded his loyal service by allowing him to continue living on the small quarter, taking care to relieve him of his responsibilities in a way that did not offend the old man: ‘ I had a good opportunity,’ he told Charley (Charles of Carrollton), ‘& I embraced it to Propose to Mr Ireland to move to His owne Plantation, I did it in such a manner that He was Pleased with it, I intend to ad to His House there a Snug & Warme roome for Him.’"
After reading this paragraph I began to give my cousins memoir a bit more attention as at least some of what he had written seemed to have credence. The footnote in "Planters" to the above paragraph led me to the Maryland Historical Society and eventually Dr. Mary Jeske the editor of the Carroll Papers who directed me to the three volume work "Dear Papa, Dear Charley" which is a superbly edited and compiled work that chronicles roughly thirty years of letters written back and forth from Charles Carroll of Annapolis (Papa) to his son, Charles Carroll of Carrollton (Charley).
"17 September, 1761
Dr Charley,
I leave the inclosed to Sr Thos: Webb Open for yr Perusall, Having done that, you will seal & Deliver it, as I presume you are acquainted with him, If you are not acquainted with: him get Mr. Perkins to Deliver it. I shall send a Duplicate & triplicate of this to you, If one be delivered it will be Sufficient: keep the others by you. By my letter to Sr Thos: you will see that I have formerly Solicited him in favour of Mr. Ireland; I Proposed he should Advance 4 or 500 (pounds) To Purchase him a Seat of Land some slaves & to Enable him to Build & improve the Land. You must know that Mr. Ireland is Related to Sr Thos who was his Guardian, that he had an Estate in Yorkshire of 4 or 500 (pounds) a year which he indiscreetly Run thro having Maryed Before he was 18 Year old, & having been Severall years in the French and austrian Service, the latter he Quitted in 1745 for a Particular Reason: He is Polite well bred & very Agreable Gentleman, & altho his former Conduct may have Given Sr Thomas reason to be Displeased with him, His present wants & fruitless industry deserves his compassion - I have also formerly sollicited Lord Montague in favour of Mr Ireland, His Lordship was So Polite & Condescending as to answer My letters & to express a desier to Serve Mr Ireland, But his Ability not being Equall to his Inclination He gave me Hopes he would use his Interst with Sr Thos in Mr Irelands favour. If you have the Honr to be acquinted with his Lordship Pray put him in Mind of this - I also sollicited Mr Molineux Sr Thomas's Chaplain, He is an old Acquaintance of myne & promised to use what Interest he had to Serve Mr Ireland Pray put him in Mind of this Presenting my Respeccts to him, & let me know what steps he Took in Complyance with his Promise...
In the fore part of this letter you see what I wish to be done for Mr Ireland, you are Acquainted with Sr Thomas's Sons they were yr Fellow Collegians You may Perchance influence them to incline their Father to Assist him, neither they or their Father will Miss 4 or 500 Pounds, that Sum would make Ireland Happy & Independant it is shocking to see a Gentn: Reduced to Hard Labour Especially when he is a Man of Great Merit - I have Advanced a Great Deal of Money to Purchase a Pretty seat of Land for Mr Ireland within two Miles of my House at Elk Ridge."
Having a contemporary of Capt. Ireland speak of him and his background in this way was what truly peaked my interest. I now had names of his relatives in Yorkshire to go work with. A very quick internet search brought me to Stirnet where I found that Sir Thomas Webb was the son of Sir John Webb 3rd Baronet. On the same page I discovered that Sir Thomas had a younger sister, Barbara who married Anthony Browne, 6th Viscount Montague. I also discovered that several generations earlier Marina Webb, daughter of the 1st Baronet had married a William Ireland of Crofton.
This was back in 2008. I tried to go further on my own and couldn't with the resources I had at the time. Though I knew Capt. Ireland was related to these noble Yorkshire families I couldn't properly tie him in and what confused me further was that calculating the probable relationship between Capt. Ireland, Webb and Montague would have made Ireland a 2nd cousin which to me seemed far too distant a relationship for a monetary request. I tried hiring a few folks overseas who were very pricey and eventually my mind drifted to other projects occasionally Googling to see if anything new had been posted that might shed some light on the mystery. By and large, for about five years I found nothing. That was until March of this year I tried my hand at it again and through another Google search and found myself here: http://wwtn.history.qmul.ac.uk/ftrees/Webbe.pdf
Once there I discovered for the first time that William Ireland of Crofton and Mariana/Marina Webb(e) had left issue a daughter, Winifred and a son, Charles. Discovering further that Charles Ireland had been mentioned in the will of his cousin, Lady Mary Gerard made me curious if perhaps she mentioned more of William and Mariana's children in her will. That led me to the National Archives website where I was able to download a variety of other Webb(e)/Ireland wills that painted a very clear picture of the relationship between the Ireland and Webbe families.
The National Archives website also provides an index to a variety of chancery records. I ordered a number of those that seemed to involve the very Webb(e)/Ireland families that I was dealing with. I received them and was overwhelmed by both the handwriting and diction and eventually was blessed to find Susan Moore of Susan Moore Research http://www.susanmooreresearch.co.uk who is an expert in British Chancery records.
Through one particular chancery record (C 11/1389/28) Susan helped me to determine that William Ireland of Crofton and Mariana/Marina Webb(e) were the parents of Ralph, John, Charles, Winifred and Mary. Through a variety of Ireland/Webbe wills I also discovered that William and Mariana were the parents of another son, Francis who had died in 1705. The rest of the puzzle would be solved by probate records.
1. Francis Ireland's will, probated in 1705 and available on the National Archives website, left everything that Francis had received from "Sir John Webb my late uncle" to his "dear brother Charles Ireland." He also named his first cousin, Sir John Webb 2nd Baronet as his chief and sole executor.
2. Mary Ireland of the City of York, Spinster had her will probated in 1712 in which she mentioned her brothers, Charles and Ralph and named her brother John Ireland as her executor. She also mentioned her brother-in-law Anthony Champion. She then leaves legacy “To Isabell Jessop my servant £5 and such of my wearing apparel as I have mentioned to my brother John Ireland, in case the said Isabell do continue with me as my servant until my death.”
Whereas upon settling and conveying my several manor lands tenements and hereditaments to trustees for payment of my debts and other encumbrances upon such settlement agreed upon to be paid and discharged thereout, it is hereby limited directed and appointed that the sum of £1,500 shall be raised and paid to me out of my several manors lands tenements and hereditaments at Crofton Birchwood Saintinley and Winterset in the said county of York and which as yet being unpaid and discharged I give and devise the said £1,500 as also all my personal estate whatsoever to my brother Mr John Ireland he paying thereout to his son John and to his daughters Mary, Elizabeth, Marina and Winifred 20s apiece to buy of them a ring and also £5 to my brother Charles Ireland for mourning
I do nominate and appoint my said brother John Ireland sole executor
Signed Ralph Ireland
1. Daughter Mary Ireland
2. Daughter Elizabeth Ireland
3. Daughter Mariana Ireland
4. Son James Ireland
He mentions his “estate in lands tenements and herditaments” which he “received by the last will and testament of (his) late brother Ralph Ireland Esq deceased” which “will descend and comme at (his) decease to (his) eldest son John Ireland and his heirs.” He names the trustees of his estate as his “much respected friends Thomas Earl of Westmoreland, Sir John Webb Baronet, Ralph Brandling Esq and Isabella my wife…” He appointed John Ireland his “eldest son sole executor.”
The will was proved in February 1736 naming “Morgan Lowry of Leeds co York clockmaker, and Sir James Burdett of the city of York Baronet” as the sureties.
5. We found a curation bond for John Ireland a minor naming his mother, Isabella of Crofton and Thomas Shann of Wakefield as the sureties. The bond stated that young Ireland was a minor but over the age of 14. It was further stated that young Ireland was entitled to an estate of £300 per year on rent due the real estate of Crofton and that he would be entitled to this at the age of 21 or upon his marriage
6. Finally, on the origins site we found the marriage record of John Ireland to Isabel Jessop in 1712. As it turned out, John Ireland had married his sister’s servant!
The facts laid out in the above mentioned documents so closely mirrored the commentary of Charles Carroll of Annapolis that connecting Capt. John Ireland of Anne Arundel Co., to John Ireland son of John Ireland of Crofton Esq., was academic at this point.
I owe a tremendous amount of thanks to Dr. Mary Jeske and to the fantastic efforts of Susan Moore who helped me digest the chancery records and sift through the voluminous probate records. Without them I never would have been able to come to the conclusion that I have made. I am in the process of writing a much more scholastic version of this narrative but for now I wanted to share the story with the group.
Cheers!
Tripp Onnen
Tripp, would I be right in saying that this Ireland family had a marriage with the Lancasters of Rainhill? I know from some American contacts that there are some suspected members of that family who went to Maryland also. Do you know anything?
Tripp Onnen
2020-08-24 18:15:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Tripp Onnen
First of all, I would like to state that I am dedicating the discovery of Captain John Ireland’s Royal pedigree to my late grandfather, Vachel Paul Dorsey.
The story of how I discovered the pedigree of Capt. John Ireland is a lengthy one. I will try to make it as succinct as possible.
“As far back as I can trace my lineage on my father’s side is Vachel Dorsey who is my father’s grandfather. He married miss Ireland daughter of an Englishman of high degree. During a public parade in England a Colonel under whom marched young Ireland insulted him. In those old times an insult meant instant apology or death. Young Ireland sent a challenge to the Colonel which the latter of course accepted as honor, which was then alone respected, bade him. Knowing that his challenge had been accepted young Ireland chartered a vessel on which he deposited men whom he could trust. At the appointed time the Colonel and young Ireland met in a room with their seconds. The doors were locked and the time was night. Awhile they practiced pass and ward till Ireland knew he held the Colonel at his mercy and the former said: 'Colonel we had better cease this strife, for it rests with me to give you life or death.' 'Kill and be damned!' was the Colonel’s reply and the noble Ireland said: ‘Between the third and fourth vest button you get it’ and the next instant the sword of Ireland pierced the Colonel’s heart. The latter fell dead into the arms of his seconds while the former departed on his vessel and sailed for America. He put up at the Carroll Manor in Howard County, Maryland. It was his daughter that married Vachel Dorsey…I will here say that my lineage can be traced back to the throne of England. But as yet I cannot get on the track that leads to the throne.”
Fortunately, Maryland marriage records give us a name for "miss Ireland" as we find that in 1786 Vachel Dorsey and Clementina Ireland were married by Rev. Charles Sewall, S.J. in Baltimore County. Though our family Bible does not record the death of Clementina Ireland Dorsey it does record the death of her elder sister, Elizabeth Ireland stating that she was “the daughter of John and Sarah Ireland" which provided me with the Christian name of "young Ireland" from my cousins memoir.
http://books.google.com/books?id=3glPliBVA8UC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA132&dq=%22john+ireland%22+%22charles+carroll%22&source=bl&ots=zbcFY7oKWG&sig=1rBrpeidcVKO6zNc1dRMSkJ1huc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yBbzUYy2O7Xj4AP0z4DADw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
"In addition to the overseers, a number of other white employees lived at Doohoragen. Rigg’s predecessor, Captain John Ireland, for whom the Carrolls had genuine affection, had by 1773 retired to Doohoragen’s smallest quarter, with only eight slaves. Born to a well-bred Yorkshire family whose estate had afforded him four to five hundred pounds a year, Ireland had misspent his youth. Marrying before his eighteenth year, he ran through his money; although some of his titled English relatives occasionally made minimal provision for him, he was reduced to soldiering for his livelihood in the French and Austrian armies. Ireland wound up in Maryland and went to work at Doohoragen, where his tireless labors won Papa’s (Charles Carroll of Annapolis) approbation. In the early 1770s, when Ireland’s health rendered him no longer equal to the job, Papa rewarded his loyal service by allowing him to continue living on the small quarter, taking care to relieve him of his responsibilities in a way that did not offend the old man: ‘ I had a good opportunity,’ he told Charley (Charles of Carrollton), ‘& I embraced it to Propose to Mr Ireland to move to His owne Plantation, I did it in such a manner that He was Pleased with it, I intend to ad to His House there a Snug & Warme roome for Him.’"
After reading this paragraph I began to give my cousins memoir a bit more attention as at least some of what he had written seemed to have credence. The footnote in "Planters" to the above paragraph led me to the Maryland Historical Society and eventually Dr. Mary Jeske the editor of the Carroll Papers who directed me to the three volume work "Dear Papa, Dear Charley" which is a superbly edited and compiled work that chronicles roughly thirty years of letters written back and forth from Charles Carroll of Annapolis (Papa) to his son, Charles Carroll of Carrollton (Charley).
"17 September, 1761
Dr Charley,
I leave the inclosed to Sr Thos: Webb Open for yr Perusall, Having done that, you will seal & Deliver it, as I presume you are acquainted with him, If you are not acquainted with: him get Mr. Perkins to Deliver it. I shall send a Duplicate & triplicate of this to you, If one be delivered it will be Sufficient: keep the others by you. By my letter to Sr Thos: you will see that I have formerly Solicited him in favour of Mr. Ireland; I Proposed he should Advance 4 or 500 (pounds) To Purchase him a Seat of Land some slaves & to Enable him to Build & improve the Land. You must know that Mr. Ireland is Related to Sr Thos who was his Guardian, that he had an Estate in Yorkshire of 4 or 500 (pounds) a year which he indiscreetly Run thro having Maryed Before he was 18 Year old, & having been Severall years in the French and austrian Service, the latter he Quitted in 1745 for a Particular Reason: He is Polite well bred & very Agreable Gentleman, & altho his former Conduct may have Given Sr Thomas reason to be Displeased with him, His present wants & fruitless industry deserves his compassion - I have also formerly sollicited Lord Montague in favour of Mr Ireland, His Lordship was So Polite & Condescending as to answer My letters & to express a desier to Serve Mr Ireland, But his Ability not being Equall to his Inclination He gave me Hopes he would use his Interst with Sr Thos in Mr Irelands favour. If you have the Honr to be acquinted with his Lordship Pray put him in Mind of this - I also sollicited Mr Molineux Sr Thomas's Chaplain, He is an old Acquaintance of myne & promised to use what Interest he had to Serve Mr Ireland Pray put him in Mind of this Presenting my Respeccts to him, & let me know what steps he Took in Complyance with his Promise...
In the fore part of this letter you see what I wish to be done for Mr Ireland, you are Acquainted with Sr Thomas's Sons they were yr Fellow Collegians You may Perchance influence them to incline their Father to Assist him, neither they or their Father will Miss 4 or 500 Pounds, that Sum would make Ireland Happy & Independant it is shocking to see a Gentn: Reduced to Hard Labour Especially when he is a Man of Great Merit - I have Advanced a Great Deal of Money to Purchase a Pretty seat of Land for Mr Ireland within two Miles of my House at Elk Ridge."
Having a contemporary of Capt. Ireland speak of him and his background in this way was what truly peaked my interest. I now had names of his relatives in Yorkshire to go work with. A very quick internet search brought me to Stirnet where I found that Sir Thomas Webb was the son of Sir John Webb 3rd Baronet. On the same page I discovered that Sir Thomas had a younger sister, Barbara who married Anthony Browne, 6th Viscount Montague. I also discovered that several generations earlier Marina Webb, daughter of the 1st Baronet had married a William Ireland of Crofton.
This was back in 2008. I tried to go further on my own and couldn't with the resources I had at the time. Though I knew Capt. Ireland was related to these noble Yorkshire families I couldn't properly tie him in and what confused me further was that calculating the probable relationship between Capt. Ireland, Webb and Montague would have made Ireland a 2nd cousin which to me seemed far too distant a relationship for a monetary request. I tried hiring a few folks overseas who were very pricey and eventually my mind drifted to other projects occasionally Googling to see if anything new had been posted that might shed some light on the mystery. By and large, for about five years I found nothing. That was until March of this year I tried my hand at it again and through another Google search and found myself here: http://wwtn.history.qmul.ac.uk/ftrees/Webbe.pdf
Once there I discovered for the first time that William Ireland of Crofton and Mariana/Marina Webb(e) had left issue a daughter, Winifred and a son, Charles. Discovering further that Charles Ireland had been mentioned in the will of his cousin, Lady Mary Gerard made me curious if perhaps she mentioned more of William and Mariana's children in her will. That led me to the National Archives website where I was able to download a variety of other Webb(e)/Ireland wills that painted a very clear picture of the relationship between the Ireland and Webbe families.
The National Archives website also provides an index to a variety of chancery records. I ordered a number of those that seemed to involve the very Webb(e)/Ireland families that I was dealing with. I received them and was overwhelmed by both the handwriting and diction and eventually was blessed to find Susan Moore of Susan Moore Research http://www.susanmooreresearch.co.uk who is an expert in British Chancery records.
Through one particular chancery record (C 11/1389/28) Susan helped me to determine that William Ireland of Crofton and Mariana/Marina Webb(e) were the parents of Ralph, John, Charles, Winifred and Mary. Through a variety of Ireland/Webbe wills I also discovered that William and Mariana were the parents of another son, Francis who had died in 1705. The rest of the puzzle would be solved by probate records.
1. Francis Ireland's will, probated in 1705 and available on the National Archives website, left everything that Francis had received from "Sir John Webb my late uncle" to his "dear brother Charles Ireland." He also named his first cousin, Sir John Webb 2nd Baronet as his chief and sole executor.
2. Mary Ireland of the City of York, Spinster had her will probated in 1712 in which she mentioned her brothers, Charles and Ralph and named her brother John Ireland as her executor. She also mentioned her brother-in-law Anthony Champion. She then leaves legacy “To Isabell Jessop my servant £5 and such of my wearing apparel as I have mentioned to my brother John Ireland, in case the said Isabell do continue with me as my servant until my death.”
Whereas upon settling and conveying my several manor lands tenements and hereditaments to trustees for payment of my debts and other encumbrances upon such settlement agreed upon to be paid and discharged thereout, it is hereby limited directed and appointed that the sum of £1,500 shall be raised and paid to me out of my several manors lands tenements and hereditaments at Crofton Birchwood Saintinley and Winterset in the said county of York and which as yet being unpaid and discharged I give and devise the said £1,500 as also all my personal estate whatsoever to my brother Mr John Ireland he paying thereout to his son John and to his daughters Mary, Elizabeth, Marina and Winifred 20s apiece to buy of them a ring and also £5 to my brother Charles Ireland for mourning
I do nominate and appoint my said brother John Ireland sole executor
Signed Ralph Ireland
1. Daughter Mary Ireland
2. Daughter Elizabeth Ireland
3. Daughter Mariana Ireland
4. Son James Ireland
He mentions his “estate in lands tenements and herditaments” which he “received by the last will and testament of (his) late brother Ralph Ireland Esq deceased” which “will descend and comme at (his) decease to (his) eldest son John Ireland and his heirs.” He names the trustees of his estate as his “much respected friends Thomas Earl of Westmoreland, Sir John Webb Baronet, Ralph Brandling Esq and Isabella my wife…” He appointed John Ireland his “eldest son sole executor.”
The will was proved in February 1736 naming “Morgan Lowry of Leeds co York clockmaker, and Sir James Burdett of the city of York Baronet” as the sureties.
5. We found a curation bond for John Ireland a minor naming his mother, Isabella of Crofton and Thomas Shann of Wakefield as the sureties. The bond stated that young Ireland was a minor but over the age of 14. It was further stated that young Ireland was entitled to an estate of £300 per year on rent due the real estate of Crofton and that he would be entitled to this at the age of 21 or upon his marriage
6. Finally, on the origins site we found the marriage record of John Ireland to Isabel Jessop in 1712. As it turned out, John Ireland had married his sister’s servant!
The facts laid out in the above mentioned documents so closely mirrored the commentary of Charles Carroll of Annapolis that connecting Capt. John Ireland of Anne Arundel Co., to John Ireland son of John Ireland of Crofton Esq., was academic at this point.
I owe a tremendous amount of thanks to Dr. Mary Jeske and to the fantastic efforts of Susan Moore who helped me digest the chancery records and sift through the voluminous probate records. Without them I never would have been able to come to the conclusion that I have made. I am in the process of writing a much more scholastic version of this narrative but for now I wanted to share the story with the group.
Cheers!
Tripp Onnen
Tripp, would I be right in saying that this Ireland family had a marriage with the Lancasters of Rainhill? I know from some American contacts that there are some suspected members of that family who went to Maryland also. Do you know anything?
Hi there...no I can't say that I know anything about a connection between the Irelands of Crofton and the Lancasters of Rainhill. What time period?
lancast...@gmail.com
2020-08-24 21:51:35 UTC
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Post by Tripp Onnen
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Tripp Onnen
First of all, I would like to state that I am dedicating the discovery of Captain John Ireland’s Royal pedigree to my late grandfather, Vachel Paul Dorsey.
The story of how I discovered the pedigree of Capt. John Ireland is a lengthy one. I will try to make it as succinct as possible.
“As far back as I can trace my lineage on my father’s side is Vachel Dorsey who is my father’s grandfather. He married miss Ireland daughter of an Englishman of high degree. During a public parade in England a Colonel under whom marched young Ireland insulted him. In those old times an insult meant instant apology or death. Young Ireland sent a challenge to the Colonel which the latter of course accepted as honor, which was then alone respected, bade him. Knowing that his challenge had been accepted young Ireland chartered a vessel on which he deposited men whom he could trust. At the appointed time the Colonel and young Ireland met in a room with their seconds. The doors were locked and the time was night. Awhile they practiced pass and ward till Ireland knew he held the Colonel at his mercy and the former said: 'Colonel we had better cease this strife, for it rests with me to give you life or death.' 'Kill and be damned!' was the Colonel’s reply and the noble Ireland said: ‘Between the third and fourth vest button you get it’ and the next instant the sword of Ireland pierced the Colonel’s heart. The latter fell dead into the arms of his seconds while the former departed on his vessel and sailed for America. He put up at the Carroll Manor in Howard County, Maryland. It was his daughter that married Vachel Dorsey…I will here say that my lineage can be traced back to the throne of England. But as yet I cannot get on the track that leads to the throne.”
Fortunately, Maryland marriage records give us a name for "miss Ireland" as we find that in 1786 Vachel Dorsey and Clementina Ireland were married by Rev. Charles Sewall, S.J. in Baltimore County. Though our family Bible does not record the death of Clementina Ireland Dorsey it does record the death of her elder sister, Elizabeth Ireland stating that she was “the daughter of John and Sarah Ireland" which provided me with the Christian name of "young Ireland" from my cousins memoir.
http://books.google.com/books?id=3glPliBVA8UC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA132&dq=%22john+ireland%22+%22charles+carroll%22&source=bl&ots=zbcFY7oKWG&sig=1rBrpeidcVKO6zNc1dRMSkJ1huc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yBbzUYy2O7Xj4AP0z4DADw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
"In addition to the overseers, a number of other white employees lived at Doohoragen. Rigg’s predecessor, Captain John Ireland, for whom the Carrolls had genuine affection, had by 1773 retired to Doohoragen’s smallest quarter, with only eight slaves. Born to a well-bred Yorkshire family whose estate had afforded him four to five hundred pounds a year, Ireland had misspent his youth. Marrying before his eighteenth year, he ran through his money; although some of his titled English relatives occasionally made minimal provision for him, he was reduced to soldiering for his livelihood in the French and Austrian armies. Ireland wound up in Maryland and went to work at Doohoragen, where his tireless labors won Papa’s (Charles Carroll of Annapolis) approbation. In the early 1770s, when Ireland’s health rendered him no longer equal to the job, Papa rewarded his loyal service by allowing him to continue living on the small quarter, taking care to relieve him of his responsibilities in a way that did not offend the old man: ‘ I had a good opportunity,’ he told Charley (Charles of Carrollton), ‘& I embraced it to Propose to Mr Ireland to move to His owne Plantation, I did it in such a manner that He was Pleased with it, I intend to ad to His House there a Snug & Warme roome for Him.’"
After reading this paragraph I began to give my cousins memoir a bit more attention as at least some of what he had written seemed to have credence. The footnote in "Planters" to the above paragraph led me to the Maryland Historical Society and eventually Dr. Mary Jeske the editor of the Carroll Papers who directed me to the three volume work "Dear Papa, Dear Charley" which is a superbly edited and compiled work that chronicles roughly thirty years of letters written back and forth from Charles Carroll of Annapolis (Papa) to his son, Charles Carroll of Carrollton (Charley).
"17 September, 1761
Dr Charley,
I leave the inclosed to Sr Thos: Webb Open for yr Perusall, Having done that, you will seal & Deliver it, as I presume you are acquainted with him, If you are not acquainted with: him get Mr. Perkins to Deliver it. I shall send a Duplicate & triplicate of this to you, If one be delivered it will be Sufficient: keep the others by you. By my letter to Sr Thos: you will see that I have formerly Solicited him in favour of Mr. Ireland; I Proposed he should Advance 4 or 500 (pounds) To Purchase him a Seat of Land some slaves & to Enable him to Build & improve the Land. You must know that Mr. Ireland is Related to Sr Thos who was his Guardian, that he had an Estate in Yorkshire of 4 or 500 (pounds) a year which he indiscreetly Run thro having Maryed Before he was 18 Year old, & having been Severall years in the French and austrian Service, the latter he Quitted in 1745 for a Particular Reason: He is Polite well bred & very Agreable Gentleman, & altho his former Conduct may have Given Sr Thomas reason to be Displeased with him, His present wants & fruitless industry deserves his compassion - I have also formerly sollicited Lord Montague in favour of Mr Ireland, His Lordship was So Polite & Condescending as to answer My letters & to express a desier to Serve Mr Ireland, But his Ability not being Equall to his Inclination He gave me Hopes he would use his Interst with Sr Thos in Mr Irelands favour. If you have the Honr to be acquinted with his Lordship Pray put him in Mind of this - I also sollicited Mr Molineux Sr Thomas's Chaplain, He is an old Acquaintance of myne & promised to use what Interest he had to Serve Mr Ireland Pray put him in Mind of this Presenting my Respeccts to him, & let me know what steps he Took in Complyance with his Promise...
In the fore part of this letter you see what I wish to be done for Mr Ireland, you are Acquainted with Sr Thomas's Sons they were yr Fellow Collegians You may Perchance influence them to incline their Father to Assist him, neither they or their Father will Miss 4 or 500 Pounds, that Sum would make Ireland Happy & Independant it is shocking to see a Gentn: Reduced to Hard Labour Especially when he is a Man of Great Merit - I have Advanced a Great Deal of Money to Purchase a Pretty seat of Land for Mr Ireland within two Miles of my House at Elk Ridge."
Having a contemporary of Capt. Ireland speak of him and his background in this way was what truly peaked my interest. I now had names of his relatives in Yorkshire to go work with. A very quick internet search brought me to Stirnet where I found that Sir Thomas Webb was the son of Sir John Webb 3rd Baronet. On the same page I discovered that Sir Thomas had a younger sister, Barbara who married Anthony Browne, 6th Viscount Montague. I also discovered that several generations earlier Marina Webb, daughter of the 1st Baronet had married a William Ireland of Crofton.
This was back in 2008. I tried to go further on my own and couldn't with the resources I had at the time. Though I knew Capt. Ireland was related to these noble Yorkshire families I couldn't properly tie him in and what confused me further was that calculating the probable relationship between Capt. Ireland, Webb and Montague would have made Ireland a 2nd cousin which to me seemed far too distant a relationship for a monetary request. I tried hiring a few folks overseas who were very pricey and eventually my mind drifted to other projects occasionally Googling to see if anything new had been posted that might shed some light on the mystery. By and large, for about five years I found nothing. That was until March of this year I tried my hand at it again and through another Google search and found myself here: http://wwtn.history.qmul.ac.uk/ftrees/Webbe.pdf
Once there I discovered for the first time that William Ireland of Crofton and Mariana/Marina Webb(e) had left issue a daughter, Winifred and a son, Charles. Discovering further that Charles Ireland had been mentioned in the will of his cousin, Lady Mary Gerard made me curious if perhaps she mentioned more of William and Mariana's children in her will. That led me to the National Archives website where I was able to download a variety of other Webb(e)/Ireland wills that painted a very clear picture of the relationship between the Ireland and Webbe families.
The National Archives website also provides an index to a variety of chancery records. I ordered a number of those that seemed to involve the very Webb(e)/Ireland families that I was dealing with. I received them and was overwhelmed by both the handwriting and diction and eventually was blessed to find Susan Moore of Susan Moore Research http://www.susanmooreresearch.co.uk who is an expert in British Chancery records.
Through one particular chancery record (C 11/1389/28) Susan helped me to determine that William Ireland of Crofton and Mariana/Marina Webb(e) were the parents of Ralph, John, Charles, Winifred and Mary. Through a variety of Ireland/Webbe wills I also discovered that William and Mariana were the parents of another son, Francis who had died in 1705. The rest of the puzzle would be solved by probate records.
1. Francis Ireland's will, probated in 1705 and available on the National Archives website, left everything that Francis had received from "Sir John Webb my late uncle" to his "dear brother Charles Ireland." He also named his first cousin, Sir John Webb 2nd Baronet as his chief and sole executor.
2. Mary Ireland of the City of York, Spinster had her will probated in 1712 in which she mentioned her brothers, Charles and Ralph and named her brother John Ireland as her executor. She also mentioned her brother-in-law Anthony Champion. She then leaves legacy “To Isabell Jessop my servant £5 and such of my wearing apparel as I have mentioned to my brother John Ireland, in case the said Isabell do continue with me as my servant until my death.”
Whereas upon settling and conveying my several manor lands tenements and hereditaments to trustees for payment of my debts and other encumbrances upon such settlement agreed upon to be paid and discharged thereout, it is hereby limited directed and appointed that the sum of £1,500 shall be raised and paid to me out of my several manors lands tenements and hereditaments at Crofton Birchwood Saintinley and Winterset in the said county of York and which as yet being unpaid and discharged I give and devise the said £1,500 as also all my personal estate whatsoever to my brother Mr John Ireland he paying thereout to his son John and to his daughters Mary, Elizabeth, Marina and Winifred 20s apiece to buy of them a ring and also £5 to my brother Charles Ireland for mourning
I do nominate and appoint my said brother John Ireland sole executor
Signed Ralph Ireland
1. Daughter Mary Ireland
2. Daughter Elizabeth Ireland
3. Daughter Mariana Ireland
4. Son James Ireland
He mentions his “estate in lands tenements and herditaments” which he “received by the last will and testament of (his) late brother Ralph Ireland Esq deceased” which “will descend and comme at (his) decease to (his) eldest son John Ireland and his heirs.” He names the trustees of his estate as his “much respected friends Thomas Earl of Westmoreland, Sir John Webb Baronet, Ralph Brandling Esq and Isabella my wife…” He appointed John Ireland his “eldest son sole executor.”
The will was proved in February 1736 naming “Morgan Lowry of Leeds co York clockmaker, and Sir James Burdett of the city of York Baronet” as the sureties.
5. We found a curation bond for John Ireland a minor naming his mother, Isabella of Crofton and Thomas Shann of Wakefield as the sureties. The bond stated that young Ireland was a minor but over the age of 14. It was further stated that young Ireland was entitled to an estate of £300 per year on rent due the real estate of Crofton and that he would be entitled to this at the age of 21 or upon his marriage
6. Finally, on the origins site we found the marriage record of John Ireland to Isabel Jessop in 1712. As it turned out, John Ireland had married his sister’s servant!
The facts laid out in the above mentioned documents so closely mirrored the commentary of Charles Carroll of Annapolis that connecting Capt. John Ireland of Anne Arundel Co., to John Ireland son of John Ireland of Crofton Esq., was academic at this point.
I owe a tremendous amount of thanks to Dr. Mary Jeske and to the fantastic efforts of Susan Moore who helped me digest the chancery records and sift through the voluminous probate records. Without them I never would have been able to come to the conclusion that I have made. I am in the process of writing a much more scholastic version of this narrative but for now I wanted to share the story with the group.
Cheers!
Tripp Onnen
Tripp, would I be right in saying that this Ireland family had a marriage with the Lancasters of Rainhill? I know from some American contacts that there are some suspected members of that family who went to Maryland also. Do you know anything?
Hi there...no I can't say that I know anything about a connection between the Irelands of Crofton and the Lancasters of Rainhill. What time period?
Well it seems that archive.org has removed their copy of the 1567 vistitation pedigree but there was supposed to be a marriage in the late 15th century. Thomas de Lancaster married Margaret Ireland, daughter of John Ireland of the Hutt. Sound like the same family?
John Higgins
2020-08-25 04:44:44 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Tripp Onnen
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Tripp Onnen
First of all, I would like to state that I am dedicating the discovery of Captain John Ireland’s Royal pedigree to my late grandfather, Vachel Paul Dorsey.
The story of how I discovered the pedigree of Capt. John Ireland is a lengthy one. I will try to make it as succinct as possible.
“As far back as I can trace my lineage on my father’s side is Vachel Dorsey who is my father’s grandfather. He married miss Ireland daughter of an Englishman of high degree. During a public parade in England a Colonel under whom marched young Ireland insulted him. In those old times an insult meant instant apology or death. Young Ireland sent a challenge to the Colonel which the latter of course accepted as honor, which was then alone respected, bade him. Knowing that his challenge had been accepted young Ireland chartered a vessel on which he deposited men whom he could trust. At the appointed time the Colonel and young Ireland met in a room with their seconds. The doors were locked and the time was night. Awhile they practiced pass and ward till Ireland knew he held the Colonel at his mercy and the former said: 'Colonel we had better cease this strife, for it rests with me to give you life or death.' 'Kill and be damned!' was the Colonel’s reply and the noble Ireland said: ‘Between the third and fourth vest button you get it’ and the next instant the sword of Ireland pierced the Colonel’s heart. The latter fell dead into the arms of his seconds while the former departed on his vessel and sailed for America. He put up at the Carroll Manor in Howard County, Maryland. It was his daughter that married Vachel Dorsey…I will here say that my lineage can be traced back to the throne of England. But as yet I cannot get on the track that leads to the throne.”
Fortunately, Maryland marriage records give us a name for "miss Ireland" as we find that in 1786 Vachel Dorsey and Clementina Ireland were married by Rev. Charles Sewall, S.J. in Baltimore County. Though our family Bible does not record the death of Clementina Ireland Dorsey it does record the death of her elder sister, Elizabeth Ireland stating that she was “the daughter of John and Sarah Ireland" which provided me with the Christian name of "young Ireland" from my cousins memoir.
http://books.google.com/books?id=3glPliBVA8UC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA132&dq=%22john+ireland%22+%22charles+carroll%22&source=bl&ots=zbcFY7oKWG&sig=1rBrpeidcVKO6zNc1dRMSkJ1huc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yBbzUYy2O7Xj4AP0z4DADw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
"In addition to the overseers, a number of other white employees lived at Doohoragen. Rigg’s predecessor, Captain John Ireland, for whom the Carrolls had genuine affection, had by 1773 retired to Doohoragen’s smallest quarter, with only eight slaves. Born to a well-bred Yorkshire family whose estate had afforded him four to five hundred pounds a year, Ireland had misspent his youth. Marrying before his eighteenth year, he ran through his money; although some of his titled English relatives occasionally made minimal provision for him, he was reduced to soldiering for his livelihood in the French and Austrian armies. Ireland wound up in Maryland and went to work at Doohoragen, where his tireless labors won Papa’s (Charles Carroll of Annapolis) approbation. In the early 1770s, when Ireland’s health rendered him no longer equal to the job, Papa rewarded his loyal service by allowing him to continue living on the small quarter, taking care to relieve him of his responsibilities in a way that did not offend the old man: ‘ I had a good opportunity,’ he told Charley (Charles of Carrollton), ‘& I embraced it to Propose to Mr Ireland to move to His owne Plantation, I did it in such a manner that He was Pleased with it, I intend to ad to His House there a Snug & Warme roome for Him.’"
After reading this paragraph I began to give my cousins memoir a bit more attention as at least some of what he had written seemed to have credence. The footnote in "Planters" to the above paragraph led me to the Maryland Historical Society and eventually Dr. Mary Jeske the editor of the Carroll Papers who directed me to the three volume work "Dear Papa, Dear Charley" which is a superbly edited and compiled work that chronicles roughly thirty years of letters written back and forth from Charles Carroll of Annapolis (Papa) to his son, Charles Carroll of Carrollton (Charley).
"17 September, 1761
Dr Charley,
I leave the inclosed to Sr Thos: Webb Open for yr Perusall, Having done that, you will seal & Deliver it, as I presume you are acquainted with him, If you are not acquainted with: him get Mr. Perkins to Deliver it. I shall send a Duplicate & triplicate of this to you, If one be delivered it will be Sufficient: keep the others by you. By my letter to Sr Thos: you will see that I have formerly Solicited him in favour of Mr. Ireland; I Proposed he should Advance 4 or 500 (pounds) To Purchase him a Seat of Land some slaves & to Enable him to Build & improve the Land. You must know that Mr. Ireland is Related to Sr Thos who was his Guardian, that he had an Estate in Yorkshire of 4 or 500 (pounds) a year which he indiscreetly Run thro having Maryed Before he was 18 Year old, & having been Severall years in the French and austrian Service, the latter he Quitted in 1745 for a Particular Reason: He is Polite well bred & very Agreable Gentleman, & altho his former Conduct may have Given Sr Thomas reason to be Displeased with him, His present wants & fruitless industry deserves his compassion - I have also formerly sollicited Lord Montague in favour of Mr Ireland, His Lordship was So Polite & Condescending as to answer My letters & to express a desier to Serve Mr Ireland, But his Ability not being Equall to his Inclination He gave me Hopes he would use his Interst with Sr Thos in Mr Irelands favour. If you have the Honr to be acquinted with his Lordship Pray put him in Mind of this - I also sollicited Mr Molineux Sr Thomas's Chaplain, He is an old Acquaintance of myne & promised to use what Interest he had to Serve Mr Ireland Pray put him in Mind of this Presenting my Respeccts to him, & let me know what steps he Took in Complyance with his Promise...
In the fore part of this letter you see what I wish to be done for Mr Ireland, you are Acquainted with Sr Thomas's Sons they were yr Fellow Collegians You may Perchance influence them to incline their Father to Assist him, neither they or their Father will Miss 4 or 500 Pounds, that Sum would make Ireland Happy & Independant it is shocking to see a Gentn: Reduced to Hard Labour Especially when he is a Man of Great Merit - I have Advanced a Great Deal of Money to Purchase a Pretty seat of Land for Mr Ireland within two Miles of my House at Elk Ridge."
Having a contemporary of Capt. Ireland speak of him and his background in this way was what truly peaked my interest. I now had names of his relatives in Yorkshire to go work with. A very quick internet search brought me to Stirnet where I found that Sir Thomas Webb was the son of Sir John Webb 3rd Baronet. On the same page I discovered that Sir Thomas had a younger sister, Barbara who married Anthony Browne, 6th Viscount Montague. I also discovered that several generations earlier Marina Webb, daughter of the 1st Baronet had married a William Ireland of Crofton.
This was back in 2008. I tried to go further on my own and couldn't with the resources I had at the time. Though I knew Capt. Ireland was related to these noble Yorkshire families I couldn't properly tie him in and what confused me further was that calculating the probable relationship between Capt. Ireland, Webb and Montague would have made Ireland a 2nd cousin which to me seemed far too distant a relationship for a monetary request. I tried hiring a few folks overseas who were very pricey and eventually my mind drifted to other projects occasionally Googling to see if anything new had been posted that might shed some light on the mystery. By and large, for about five years I found nothing. That was until March of this year I tried my hand at it again and through another Google search and found myself here: http://wwtn.history.qmul.ac.uk/ftrees/Webbe.pdf
Once there I discovered for the first time that William Ireland of Crofton and Mariana/Marina Webb(e) had left issue a daughter, Winifred and a son, Charles. Discovering further that Charles Ireland had been mentioned in the will of his cousin, Lady Mary Gerard made me curious if perhaps she mentioned more of William and Mariana's children in her will. That led me to the National Archives website where I was able to download a variety of other Webb(e)/Ireland wills that painted a very clear picture of the relationship between the Ireland and Webbe families.
The National Archives website also provides an index to a variety of chancery records. I ordered a number of those that seemed to involve the very Webb(e)/Ireland families that I was dealing with. I received them and was overwhelmed by both the handwriting and diction and eventually was blessed to find Susan Moore of Susan Moore Research http://www.susanmooreresearch.co.uk who is an expert in British Chancery records.
Through one particular chancery record (C 11/1389/28) Susan helped me to determine that William Ireland of Crofton and Mariana/Marina Webb(e) were the parents of Ralph, John, Charles, Winifred and Mary. Through a variety of Ireland/Webbe wills I also discovered that William and Mariana were the parents of another son, Francis who had died in 1705. The rest of the puzzle would be solved by probate records.
1. Francis Ireland's will, probated in 1705 and available on the National Archives website, left everything that Francis had received from "Sir John Webb my late uncle" to his "dear brother Charles Ireland." He also named his first cousin, Sir John Webb 2nd Baronet as his chief and sole executor.
2. Mary Ireland of the City of York, Spinster had her will probated in 1712 in which she mentioned her brothers, Charles and Ralph and named her brother John Ireland as her executor. She also mentioned her brother-in-law Anthony Champion. She then leaves legacy “To Isabell Jessop my servant £5 and such of my wearing apparel as I have mentioned to my brother John Ireland, in case the said Isabell do continue with me as my servant until my death.”
Whereas upon settling and conveying my several manor lands tenements and hereditaments to trustees for payment of my debts and other encumbrances upon such settlement agreed upon to be paid and discharged thereout, it is hereby limited directed and appointed that the sum of £1,500 shall be raised and paid to me out of my several manors lands tenements and hereditaments at Crofton Birchwood Saintinley and Winterset in the said county of York and which as yet being unpaid and discharged I give and devise the said £1,500 as also all my personal estate whatsoever to my brother Mr John Ireland he paying thereout to his son John and to his daughters Mary, Elizabeth, Marina and Winifred 20s apiece to buy of them a ring and also £5 to my brother Charles Ireland for mourning
I do nominate and appoint my said brother John Ireland sole executor
Signed Ralph Ireland
1. Daughter Mary Ireland
2. Daughter Elizabeth Ireland
3. Daughter Mariana Ireland
4. Son James Ireland
He mentions his “estate in lands tenements and herditaments” which he “received by the last will and testament of (his) late brother Ralph Ireland Esq deceased” which “will descend and comme at (his) decease to (his) eldest son John Ireland and his heirs.” He names the trustees of his estate as his “much respected friends Thomas Earl of Westmoreland, Sir John Webb Baronet, Ralph Brandling Esq and Isabella my wife…” He appointed John Ireland his “eldest son sole executor.”
The will was proved in February 1736 naming “Morgan Lowry of Leeds co York clockmaker, and Sir James Burdett of the city of York Baronet” as the sureties.
5. We found a curation bond for John Ireland a minor naming his mother, Isabella of Crofton and Thomas Shann of Wakefield as the sureties. The bond stated that young Ireland was a minor but over the age of 14. It was further stated that young Ireland was entitled to an estate of £300 per year on rent due the real estate of Crofton and that he would be entitled to this at the age of 21 or upon his marriage
6. Finally, on the origins site we found the marriage record of John Ireland to Isabel Jessop in 1712. As it turned out, John Ireland had married his sister’s servant!
The facts laid out in the above mentioned documents so closely mirrored the commentary of Charles Carroll of Annapolis that connecting Capt. John Ireland of Anne Arundel Co., to John Ireland son of John Ireland of Crofton Esq., was academic at this point.
I owe a tremendous amount of thanks to Dr. Mary Jeske and to the fantastic efforts of Susan Moore who helped me digest the chancery records and sift through the voluminous probate records. Without them I never would have been able to come to the conclusion that I have made. I am in the process of writing a much more scholastic version of this narrative but for now I wanted to share the story with the group.
Cheers!
Tripp Onnen
Tripp, would I be right in saying that this Ireland family had a marriage with the Lancasters of Rainhill? I know from some American contacts that there are some suspected members of that family who went to Maryland also. Do you know anything?
Hi there...no I can't say that I know anything about a connection between the Irelands of Crofton and the Lancasters of Rainhill. What time period?
Well it seems that archive.org has removed their copy of the 1567 vistitation pedigree but there was supposed to be a marriage in the late 15th century. Thomas de Lancaster married Margaret Ireland, daughter of John Ireland of the Hutt. Sound like the same family?
This appears to be the pedigree that you're looking for, in the Google Books copy of the 1567 Lancashire visitation, published in vol. 81 of the Chesham Society's publications - see p. 118. I can't see any mention of a family of Ireland of Crofton.

https://books.google.com/books?id=41o-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA138&dq=lancaster+rainhill+ireland+hutt&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjl0Ob5w7XrAhWGjp4KHYJ7BskQ6AEwAXoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=lancaster%20rainhill%20ireland%20hutt&f=false
John Higgins
2020-08-25 04:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Higgins
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Tripp Onnen
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Tripp Onnen
First of all, I would like to state that I am dedicating the discovery of Captain John Ireland’s Royal pedigree to my late grandfather, Vachel Paul Dorsey.
The story of how I discovered the pedigree of Capt. John Ireland is a lengthy one. I will try to make it as succinct as possible.
“As far back as I can trace my lineage on my father’s side is Vachel Dorsey who is my father’s grandfather. He married miss Ireland daughter of an Englishman of high degree. During a public parade in England a Colonel under whom marched young Ireland insulted him. In those old times an insult meant instant apology or death. Young Ireland sent a challenge to the Colonel which the latter of course accepted as honor, which was then alone respected, bade him. Knowing that his challenge had been accepted young Ireland chartered a vessel on which he deposited men whom he could trust. At the appointed time the Colonel and young Ireland met in a room with their seconds. The doors were locked and the time was night. Awhile they practiced pass and ward till Ireland knew he held the Colonel at his mercy and the former said: 'Colonel we had better cease this strife, for it rests with me to give you life or death.' 'Kill and be damned!' was the Colonel’s reply and the noble Ireland said: ‘Between the third and fourth vest button you get it’ and the next instant the sword of Ireland pierced the Colonel’s heart. The latter fell dead into the arms of his seconds while the former departed on his vessel and sailed for America. He put up at the Carroll Manor in Howard County, Maryland. It was his daughter that married Vachel Dorsey…I will here say that my lineage can be traced back to the throne of England. But as yet I cannot get on the track that leads to the throne.”
Fortunately, Maryland marriage records give us a name for "miss Ireland" as we find that in 1786 Vachel Dorsey and Clementina Ireland were married by Rev. Charles Sewall, S.J. in Baltimore County. Though our family Bible does not record the death of Clementina Ireland Dorsey it does record the death of her elder sister, Elizabeth Ireland stating that she was “the daughter of John and Sarah Ireland" which provided me with the Christian name of "young Ireland" from my cousins memoir.
http://books.google.com/books?id=3glPliBVA8UC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA132&dq=%22john+ireland%22+%22charles+carroll%22&source=bl&ots=zbcFY7oKWG&sig=1rBrpeidcVKO6zNc1dRMSkJ1huc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yBbzUYy2O7Xj4AP0z4DADw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
"In addition to the overseers, a number of other white employees lived at Doohoragen. Rigg’s predecessor, Captain John Ireland, for whom the Carrolls had genuine affection, had by 1773 retired to Doohoragen’s smallest quarter, with only eight slaves. Born to a well-bred Yorkshire family whose estate had afforded him four to five hundred pounds a year, Ireland had misspent his youth. Marrying before his eighteenth year, he ran through his money; although some of his titled English relatives occasionally made minimal provision for him, he was reduced to soldiering for his livelihood in the French and Austrian armies. Ireland wound up in Maryland and went to work at Doohoragen, where his tireless labors won Papa’s (Charles Carroll of Annapolis) approbation. In the early 1770s, when Ireland’s health rendered him no longer equal to the job, Papa rewarded his loyal service by allowing him to continue living on the small quarter, taking care to relieve him of his responsibilities in a way that did not offend the old man: ‘ I had a good opportunity,’ he told Charley (Charles of Carrollton), ‘& I embraced it to Propose to Mr Ireland to move to His owne Plantation, I did it in such a manner that He was Pleased with it, I intend to ad to His House there a Snug & Warme roome for Him.’"
After reading this paragraph I began to give my cousins memoir a bit more attention as at least some of what he had written seemed to have credence. The footnote in "Planters" to the above paragraph led me to the Maryland Historical Society and eventually Dr. Mary Jeske the editor of the Carroll Papers who directed me to the three volume work "Dear Papa, Dear Charley" which is a superbly edited and compiled work that chronicles roughly thirty years of letters written back and forth from Charles Carroll of Annapolis (Papa) to his son, Charles Carroll of Carrollton (Charley).
"17 September, 1761
Dr Charley,
I leave the inclosed to Sr Thos: Webb Open for yr Perusall, Having done that, you will seal & Deliver it, as I presume you are acquainted with him, If you are not acquainted with: him get Mr. Perkins to Deliver it. I shall send a Duplicate & triplicate of this to you, If one be delivered it will be Sufficient: keep the others by you. By my letter to Sr Thos: you will see that I have formerly Solicited him in favour of Mr. Ireland; I Proposed he should Advance 4 or 500 (pounds) To Purchase him a Seat of Land some slaves & to Enable him to Build & improve the Land. You must know that Mr. Ireland is Related to Sr Thos who was his Guardian, that he had an Estate in Yorkshire of 4 or 500 (pounds) a year which he indiscreetly Run thro having Maryed Before he was 18 Year old, & having been Severall years in the French and austrian Service, the latter he Quitted in 1745 for a Particular Reason: He is Polite well bred & very Agreable Gentleman, & altho his former Conduct may have Given Sr Thomas reason to be Displeased with him, His present wants & fruitless industry deserves his compassion - I have also formerly sollicited Lord Montague in favour of Mr Ireland, His Lordship was So Polite & Condescending as to answer My letters & to express a desier to Serve Mr Ireland, But his Ability not being Equall to his Inclination He gave me Hopes he would use his Interst with Sr Thos in Mr Irelands favour. If you have the Honr to be acquinted with his Lordship Pray put him in Mind of this - I also sollicited Mr Molineux Sr Thomas's Chaplain, He is an old Acquaintance of myne & promised to use what Interest he had to Serve Mr Ireland Pray put him in Mind of this Presenting my Respeccts to him, & let me know what steps he Took in Complyance with his Promise...
In the fore part of this letter you see what I wish to be done for Mr Ireland, you are Acquainted with Sr Thomas's Sons they were yr Fellow Collegians You may Perchance influence them to incline their Father to Assist him, neither they or their Father will Miss 4 or 500 Pounds, that Sum would make Ireland Happy & Independant it is shocking to see a Gentn: Reduced to Hard Labour Especially when he is a Man of Great Merit - I have Advanced a Great Deal of Money to Purchase a Pretty seat of Land for Mr Ireland within two Miles of my House at Elk Ridge."
Having a contemporary of Capt. Ireland speak of him and his background in this way was what truly peaked my interest. I now had names of his relatives in Yorkshire to go work with. A very quick internet search brought me to Stirnet where I found that Sir Thomas Webb was the son of Sir John Webb 3rd Baronet. On the same page I discovered that Sir Thomas had a younger sister, Barbara who married Anthony Browne, 6th Viscount Montague. I also discovered that several generations earlier Marina Webb, daughter of the 1st Baronet had married a William Ireland of Crofton.
This was back in 2008. I tried to go further on my own and couldn't with the resources I had at the time. Though I knew Capt. Ireland was related to these noble Yorkshire families I couldn't properly tie him in and what confused me further was that calculating the probable relationship between Capt. Ireland, Webb and Montague would have made Ireland a 2nd cousin which to me seemed far too distant a relationship for a monetary request. I tried hiring a few folks overseas who were very pricey and eventually my mind drifted to other projects occasionally Googling to see if anything new had been posted that might shed some light on the mystery. By and large, for about five years I found nothing. That was until March of this year I tried my hand at it again and through another Google search and found myself here: http://wwtn.history.qmul.ac.uk/ftrees/Webbe.pdf
Once there I discovered for the first time that William Ireland of Crofton and Mariana/Marina Webb(e) had left issue a daughter, Winifred and a son, Charles. Discovering further that Charles Ireland had been mentioned in the will of his cousin, Lady Mary Gerard made me curious if perhaps she mentioned more of William and Mariana's children in her will. That led me to the National Archives website where I was able to download a variety of other Webb(e)/Ireland wills that painted a very clear picture of the relationship between the Ireland and Webbe families.
The National Archives website also provides an index to a variety of chancery records. I ordered a number of those that seemed to involve the very Webb(e)/Ireland families that I was dealing with. I received them and was overwhelmed by both the handwriting and diction and eventually was blessed to find Susan Moore of Susan Moore Research http://www.susanmooreresearch.co.uk who is an expert in British Chancery records.
Through one particular chancery record (C 11/1389/28) Susan helped me to determine that William Ireland of Crofton and Mariana/Marina Webb(e) were the parents of Ralph, John, Charles, Winifred and Mary. Through a variety of Ireland/Webbe wills I also discovered that William and Mariana were the parents of another son, Francis who had died in 1705. The rest of the puzzle would be solved by probate records.
1. Francis Ireland's will, probated in 1705 and available on the National Archives website, left everything that Francis had received from "Sir John Webb my late uncle" to his "dear brother Charles Ireland." He also named his first cousin, Sir John Webb 2nd Baronet as his chief and sole executor.
2. Mary Ireland of the City of York, Spinster had her will probated in 1712 in which she mentioned her brothers, Charles and Ralph and named her brother John Ireland as her executor. She also mentioned her brother-in-law Anthony Champion. She then leaves legacy “To Isabell Jessop my servant £5 and such of my wearing apparel as I have mentioned to my brother John Ireland, in case the said Isabell do continue with me as my servant until my death.”
Whereas upon settling and conveying my several manor lands tenements and hereditaments to trustees for payment of my debts and other encumbrances upon such settlement agreed upon to be paid and discharged thereout, it is hereby limited directed and appointed that the sum of £1,500 shall be raised and paid to me out of my several manors lands tenements and hereditaments at Crofton Birchwood Saintinley and Winterset in the said county of York and which as yet being unpaid and discharged I give and devise the said £1,500 as also all my personal estate whatsoever to my brother Mr John Ireland he paying thereout to his son John and to his daughters Mary, Elizabeth, Marina and Winifred 20s apiece to buy of them a ring and also £5 to my brother Charles Ireland for mourning
I do nominate and appoint my said brother John Ireland sole executor
Signed Ralph Ireland
1. Daughter Mary Ireland
2. Daughter Elizabeth Ireland
3. Daughter Mariana Ireland
4. Son James Ireland
He mentions his “estate in lands tenements and herditaments” which he “received by the last will and testament of (his) late brother Ralph Ireland Esq deceased” which “will descend and comme at (his) decease to (his) eldest son John Ireland and his heirs.” He names the trustees of his estate as his “much respected friends Thomas Earl of Westmoreland, Sir John Webb Baronet, Ralph Brandling Esq and Isabella my wife…” He appointed John Ireland his “eldest son sole executor.”
The will was proved in February 1736 naming “Morgan Lowry of Leeds co York clockmaker, and Sir James Burdett of the city of York Baronet” as the sureties.
5. We found a curation bond for John Ireland a minor naming his mother, Isabella of Crofton and Thomas Shann of Wakefield as the sureties. The bond stated that young Ireland was a minor but over the age of 14. It was further stated that young Ireland was entitled to an estate of £300 per year on rent due the real estate of Crofton and that he would be entitled to this at the age of 21 or upon his marriage
6. Finally, on the origins site we found the marriage record of John Ireland to Isabel Jessop in 1712. As it turned out, John Ireland had married his sister’s servant!
The facts laid out in the above mentioned documents so closely mirrored the commentary of Charles Carroll of Annapolis that connecting Capt. John Ireland of Anne Arundel Co., to John Ireland son of John Ireland of Crofton Esq., was academic at this point.
I owe a tremendous amount of thanks to Dr. Mary Jeske and to the fantastic efforts of Susan Moore who helped me digest the chancery records and sift through the voluminous probate records. Without them I never would have been able to come to the conclusion that I have made. I am in the process of writing a much more scholastic version of this narrative but for now I wanted to share the story with the group.
Cheers!
Tripp Onnen
Tripp, would I be right in saying that this Ireland family had a marriage with the Lancasters of Rainhill? I know from some American contacts that there are some suspected members of that family who went to Maryland also. Do you know anything?
Hi there...no I can't say that I know anything about a connection between the Irelands of Crofton and the Lancasters of Rainhill. What time period?
Well it seems that archive.org has removed their copy of the 1567 vistitation pedigree but there was supposed to be a marriage in the late 15th century. Thomas de Lancaster married Margaret Ireland, daughter of John Ireland of the Hutt. Sound like the same family?
This appears to be the pedigree that you're looking for, in the Google Books copy of the 1567 Lancashire visitation, published in vol. 81 of the Chesham Society's publications - see p. 118. I can't see any mention of a family of Ireland of Crofton.
https://books.google.com/books?id=41o-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA138&dq=lancaster+rainhill+ireland+hutt&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjl0Ob5w7XrAhWGjp4KHYJ7BskQ6AEwAXoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=lancaster%20rainhill%20ireland%20hutt&f=false
correction: Chetham, not Chesham, Society
lancast...@gmail.com
2020-08-25 21:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Tripp Onnen
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Tripp Onnen
First of all, I would like to state that I am dedicating the discovery of Captain John Ireland’s Royal pedigree to my late grandfather, Vachel Paul Dorsey.
The story of how I discovered the pedigree of Capt. John Ireland is a lengthy one. I will try to make it as succinct as possible.
“As far back as I can trace my lineage on my father’s side is Vachel Dorsey who is my father’s grandfather. He married miss Ireland daughter of an Englishman of high degree. During a public parade in England a Colonel under whom marched young Ireland insulted him. In those old times an insult meant instant apology or death. Young Ireland sent a challenge to the Colonel which the latter of course accepted as honor, which was then alone respected, bade him. Knowing that his challenge had been accepted young Ireland chartered a vessel on which he deposited men whom he could trust. At the appointed time the Colonel and young Ireland met in a room with their seconds. The doors were locked and the time was night. Awhile they practiced pass and ward till Ireland knew he held the Colonel at his mercy and the former said: 'Colonel we had better cease this strife, for it rests with me to give you life or death.' 'Kill and be damned!' was the Colonel’s reply and the noble Ireland said: ‘Between the third and fourth vest button you get it’ and the next instant the sword of Ireland pierced the Colonel’s heart. The latter fell dead into the arms of his seconds while the former departed on his vessel and sailed for America. He put up at the Carroll Manor in Howard County, Maryland. It was his daughter that married Vachel Dorsey…I will here say that my lineage can be traced back to the throne of England. But as yet I cannot get on the track that leads to the throne.”
Fortunately, Maryland marriage records give us a name for "miss Ireland" as we find that in 1786 Vachel Dorsey and Clementina Ireland were married by Rev. Charles Sewall, S.J. in Baltimore County. Though our family Bible does not record the death of Clementina Ireland Dorsey it does record the death of her elder sister, Elizabeth Ireland stating that she was “the daughter of John and Sarah Ireland" which provided me with the Christian name of "young Ireland" from my cousins memoir.
http://books.google.com/books?id=3glPliBVA8UC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA132&dq=%22john+ireland%22+%22charles+carroll%22&source=bl&ots=zbcFY7oKWG&sig=1rBrpeidcVKO6zNc1dRMSkJ1huc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yBbzUYy2O7Xj4AP0z4DADw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
"In addition to the overseers, a number of other white employees lived at Doohoragen. Rigg’s predecessor, Captain John Ireland, for whom the Carrolls had genuine affection, had by 1773 retired to Doohoragen’s smallest quarter, with only eight slaves. Born to a well-bred Yorkshire family whose estate had afforded him four to five hundred pounds a year, Ireland had misspent his youth. Marrying before his eighteenth year, he ran through his money; although some of his titled English relatives occasionally made minimal provision for him, he was reduced to soldiering for his livelihood in the French and Austrian armies. Ireland wound up in Maryland and went to work at Doohoragen, where his tireless labors won Papa’s (Charles Carroll of Annapolis) approbation. In the early 1770s, when Ireland’s health rendered him no longer equal to the job, Papa rewarded his loyal service by allowing him to continue living on the small quarter, taking care to relieve him of his responsibilities in a way that did not offend the old man: ‘ I had a good opportunity,’ he told Charley (Charles of Carrollton), ‘& I embraced it to Propose to Mr Ireland to move to His owne Plantation, I did it in such a manner that He was Pleased with it, I intend to ad to His House there a Snug & Warme roome for Him.’"
After reading this paragraph I began to give my cousins memoir a bit more attention as at least some of what he had written seemed to have credence. The footnote in "Planters" to the above paragraph led me to the Maryland Historical Society and eventually Dr. Mary Jeske the editor of the Carroll Papers who directed me to the three volume work "Dear Papa, Dear Charley" which is a superbly edited and compiled work that chronicles roughly thirty years of letters written back and forth from Charles Carroll of Annapolis (Papa) to his son, Charles Carroll of Carrollton (Charley).
"17 September, 1761
Dr Charley,
I leave the inclosed to Sr Thos: Webb Open for yr Perusall, Having done that, you will seal & Deliver it, as I presume you are acquainted with him, If you are not acquainted with: him get Mr. Perkins to Deliver it. I shall send a Duplicate & triplicate of this to you, If one be delivered it will be Sufficient: keep the others by you. By my letter to Sr Thos: you will see that I have formerly Solicited him in favour of Mr. Ireland; I Proposed he should Advance 4 or 500 (pounds) To Purchase him a Seat of Land some slaves & to Enable him to Build & improve the Land. You must know that Mr. Ireland is Related to Sr Thos who was his Guardian, that he had an Estate in Yorkshire of 4 or 500 (pounds) a year which he indiscreetly Run thro having Maryed Before he was 18 Year old, & having been Severall years in the French and austrian Service, the latter he Quitted in 1745 for a Particular Reason: He is Polite well bred & very Agreable Gentleman, & altho his former Conduct may have Given Sr Thomas reason to be Displeased with him, His present wants & fruitless industry deserves his compassion - I have also formerly sollicited Lord Montague in favour of Mr Ireland, His Lordship was So Polite & Condescending as to answer My letters & to express a desier to Serve Mr Ireland, But his Ability not being Equall to his Inclination He gave me Hopes he would use his Interst with Sr Thos in Mr Irelands favour. If you have the Honr to be acquinted with his Lordship Pray put him in Mind of this - I also sollicited Mr Molineux Sr Thomas's Chaplain, He is an old Acquaintance of myne & promised to use what Interest he had to Serve Mr Ireland Pray put him in Mind of this Presenting my Respeccts to him, & let me know what steps he Took in Complyance with his Promise...
In the fore part of this letter you see what I wish to be done for Mr Ireland, you are Acquainted with Sr Thomas's Sons they were yr Fellow Collegians You may Perchance influence them to incline their Father to Assist him, neither they or their Father will Miss 4 or 500 Pounds, that Sum would make Ireland Happy & Independant it is shocking to see a Gentn: Reduced to Hard Labour Especially when he is a Man of Great Merit - I have Advanced a Great Deal of Money to Purchase a Pretty seat of Land for Mr Ireland within two Miles of my House at Elk Ridge."
Having a contemporary of Capt. Ireland speak of him and his background in this way was what truly peaked my interest. I now had names of his relatives in Yorkshire to go work with. A very quick internet search brought me to Stirnet where I found that Sir Thomas Webb was the son of Sir John Webb 3rd Baronet. On the same page I discovered that Sir Thomas had a younger sister, Barbara who married Anthony Browne, 6th Viscount Montague. I also discovered that several generations earlier Marina Webb, daughter of the 1st Baronet had married a William Ireland of Crofton.
This was back in 2008. I tried to go further on my own and couldn't with the resources I had at the time. Though I knew Capt. Ireland was related to these noble Yorkshire families I couldn't properly tie him in and what confused me further was that calculating the probable relationship between Capt. Ireland, Webb and Montague would have made Ireland a 2nd cousin which to me seemed far too distant a relationship for a monetary request. I tried hiring a few folks overseas who were very pricey and eventually my mind drifted to other projects occasionally Googling to see if anything new had been posted that might shed some light on the mystery. By and large, for about five years I found nothing. That was until March of this year I tried my hand at it again and through another Google search and found myself here: http://wwtn.history.qmul.ac.uk/ftrees/Webbe.pdf
Once there I discovered for the first time that William Ireland of Crofton and Mariana/Marina Webb(e) had left issue a daughter, Winifred and a son, Charles. Discovering further that Charles Ireland had been mentioned in the will of his cousin, Lady Mary Gerard made me curious if perhaps she mentioned more of William and Mariana's children in her will. That led me to the National Archives website where I was able to download a variety of other Webb(e)/Ireland wills that painted a very clear picture of the relationship between the Ireland and Webbe families.
The National Archives website also provides an index to a variety of chancery records. I ordered a number of those that seemed to involve the very Webb(e)/Ireland families that I was dealing with. I received them and was overwhelmed by both the handwriting and diction and eventually was blessed to find Susan Moore of Susan Moore Research http://www.susanmooreresearch.co.uk who is an expert in British Chancery records.
Through one particular chancery record (C 11/1389/28) Susan helped me to determine that William Ireland of Crofton and Mariana/Marina Webb(e) were the parents of Ralph, John, Charles, Winifred and Mary. Through a variety of Ireland/Webbe wills I also discovered that William and Mariana were the parents of another son, Francis who had died in 1705. The rest of the puzzle would be solved by probate records.
1. Francis Ireland's will, probated in 1705 and available on the National Archives website, left everything that Francis had received from "Sir John Webb my late uncle" to his "dear brother Charles Ireland." He also named his first cousin, Sir John Webb 2nd Baronet as his chief and sole executor.
2. Mary Ireland of the City of York, Spinster had her will probated in 1712 in which she mentioned her brothers, Charles and Ralph and named her brother John Ireland as her executor. She also mentioned her brother-in-law Anthony Champion. She then leaves legacy “To Isabell Jessop my servant £5 and such of my wearing apparel as I have mentioned to my brother John Ireland, in case the said Isabell do continue with me as my servant until my death.”
Whereas upon settling and conveying my several manor lands tenements and hereditaments to trustees for payment of my debts and other encumbrances upon such settlement agreed upon to be paid and discharged thereout, it is hereby limited directed and appointed that the sum of £1,500 shall be raised and paid to me out of my several manors lands tenements and hereditaments at Crofton Birchwood Saintinley and Winterset in the said county of York and which as yet being unpaid and discharged I give and devise the said £1,500 as also all my personal estate whatsoever to my brother Mr John Ireland he paying thereout to his son John and to his daughters Mary, Elizabeth, Marina and Winifred 20s apiece to buy of them a ring and also £5 to my brother Charles Ireland for mourning
I do nominate and appoint my said brother John Ireland sole executor
Signed Ralph Ireland
1. Daughter Mary Ireland
2. Daughter Elizabeth Ireland
3. Daughter Mariana Ireland
4. Son James Ireland
He mentions his “estate in lands tenements and herditaments” which he “received by the last will and testament of (his) late brother Ralph Ireland Esq deceased” which “will descend and comme at (his) decease to (his) eldest son John Ireland and his heirs.” He names the trustees of his estate as his “much respected friends Thomas Earl of Westmoreland, Sir John Webb Baronet, Ralph Brandling Esq and Isabella my wife…” He appointed John Ireland his “eldest son sole executor.”
The will was proved in February 1736 naming “Morgan Lowry of Leeds co York clockmaker, and Sir James Burdett of the city of York Baronet” as the sureties.
5. We found a curation bond for John Ireland a minor naming his mother, Isabella of Crofton and Thomas Shann of Wakefield as the sureties. The bond stated that young Ireland was a minor but over the age of 14. It was further stated that young Ireland was entitled to an estate of £300 per year on rent due the real estate of Crofton and that he would be entitled to this at the age of 21 or upon his marriage
6. Finally, on the origins site we found the marriage record of John Ireland to Isabel Jessop in 1712. As it turned out, John Ireland had married his sister’s servant!
The facts laid out in the above mentioned documents so closely mirrored the commentary of Charles Carroll of Annapolis that connecting Capt. John Ireland of Anne Arundel Co., to John Ireland son of John Ireland of Crofton Esq., was academic at this point.
I owe a tremendous amount of thanks to Dr. Mary Jeske and to the fantastic efforts of Susan Moore who helped me digest the chancery records and sift through the voluminous probate records. Without them I never would have been able to come to the conclusion that I have made. I am in the process of writing a much more scholastic version of this narrative but for now I wanted to share the story with the group.
Cheers!
Tripp Onnen
Tripp, would I be right in saying that this Ireland family had a marriage with the Lancasters of Rainhill? I know from some American contacts that there are some suspected members of that family who went to Maryland also. Do you know anything?
Hi there...no I can't say that I know anything about a connection between the Irelands of Crofton and the Lancasters of Rainhill. What time period?
Well it seems that archive.org has removed their copy of the 1567 vistitation pedigree but there was supposed to be a marriage in the late 15th century. Thomas de Lancaster married Margaret Ireland, daughter of John Ireland of the Hutt. Sound like the same family?
This appears to be the pedigree that you're looking for, in the Google Books copy of the 1567 Lancashire visitation, published in vol. 81 of the Chesham Society's publications - see p. 118. I can't see any mention of a family of Ireland of Crofton.
https://books.google.com/books?id=41o-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA138&dq=lancaster+rainhill+ireland+hutt&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjl0Ob5w7XrAhWGjp4KHYJ7BskQ6AEwAXoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=lancaster%20rainhill%20ireland%20hutt&f=false
Thanks, yes it seems the ones who married with the Lancasters of Rainhill were of "Hutt and Hale". But I am thinking there is a connection to those Crofton Irelands?
John Higgins
2020-08-26 03:40:23 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Tripp Onnen
Post by ***@gmail.com
Tripp, would I be right in saying that this Ireland family had a marriage with the Lancasters of Rainhill? I know from some American contacts that there are some suspected members of that family who went to Maryland also. Do you know anything?
Hi there...no I can't say that I know anything about a connection between the Irelands of Crofton and the Lancasters of Rainhill. What time period?
Well it seems that archive.org has removed their copy of the 1567 vistitation pedigree but there was supposed to be a marriage in the late 15th century. Thomas de Lancaster married Margaret Ireland, daughter of John Ireland of the Hutt. Sound like the same family?
This appears to be the pedigree that you're looking for, in the Google Books copy of the 1567 Lancashire visitation, published in vol. 81 of the Chesham Society's publications - see p. 118. I can't see any mention of a family of Ireland of Crofton.
https://books.google.com/books?id=41o-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA138&dq=lancaster+rainhill+ireland+hutt&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjl0Ob5w7XrAhWGjp4KHYJ7BskQ6AEwAXoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=lancaster%20rainhill%20ireland%20hutt&f=false
Thanks, yes it seems the ones who married with the Lancasters of Rainhill were of "Hutt and Hale". But I am thinking there is a connection to those Crofton Irelands?
After some digging (and dredging up of old posts), I can confirm that there is indeed a connection between the family of Ireland of Crofton and the family of Ireland of Hale and Hutt, and specifically the Lydiate branch of the latter family.

There is a very detailed pedigree of the family of Ireland of Hale and Hutt, and its Lydiate branch in vol. 5 of James Croston's edition of Edward Baines' History of Lancaster (1893). See pages 50ff here: http://books.google.com/books?id=7k8MAQAAMAAJ

If you follow the lines carefully in the pedigree, you’ll see the following descent (in VERY summarized form):
1. Sir John Ireland of the Hutt and Hall; m. Margaret Halsall
2. Thomas Ireland; m. Agnes, dau. of Robert de Blackborne
3. Laurence Ireland of Lydiate; m. Katherine, dau. of Henry Blundell of Little Crosby
4. John Ireland of Lydiate; m. Beatrice, dau. of William Norreys of Speke
5. George Ireland of Lydiate; m. Isabelle, dau. of [John?] Nowell of Read
6. Laurence Ireland of Lydiate; m. Anne, dau. of John Crosse of Crosse Hall
7. William Ireland of Lydiate; m. (2) Eleanor, dau. of Roger Molyneux of Hawkley
8. William Ireland of Nostell Priory; m. Elizabeth, dau. of William Molyneux of Sefton

The Croston/Baines pedigree ends here, but it was carried forward in a 2013 post by Tripp Onnen, the author of the forthcoming article on Capt. John Ireland (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/m-8OAFcVkAo%5B1-25%5D).
The pedigree there is as follows:
9. Sir Francis Ireland of Nostell Priory; m. (2) Elizabeth, dau. of William, 4th Lord Eure
10. William Ireland of Crofton Hall; m. Barbara, dau. of Ralph Eure of Washingborough
11. William Ireland of Crofton Hall; m. Marianna, dau. of Sir John Webbe,1st Bt.
12. John Ireland of Crofton Hall; m. Isabel Jessup
13. Capt. John Ireland and of Maryland

It will be interesting to see the forthcoming articled in TG.

BTW the Croston/Baines pedigree does show a connection to the family of Lancaster of Rainhill, as you suggested - but perhaps not the one you were looking for. Margaret, daughter of Sir John Ireland and Margaret Halsall (#1 above) married Thomas Lancaster of Rainhill - but the Ireland pedigree indicates that the couple had no issue.
lancast...@gmail.com
2020-08-26 14:15:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Higgins
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Tripp Onnen
Post by ***@gmail.com
Tripp, would I be right in saying that this Ireland family had a marriage with the Lancasters of Rainhill? I know from some American contacts that there are some suspected members of that family who went to Maryland also. Do you know anything?
Hi there...no I can't say that I know anything about a connection between the Irelands of Crofton and the Lancasters of Rainhill. What time period?
Well it seems that archive.org has removed their copy of the 1567 vistitation pedigree but there was supposed to be a marriage in the late 15th century. Thomas de Lancaster married Margaret Ireland, daughter of John Ireland of the Hutt. Sound like the same family?
This appears to be the pedigree that you're looking for, in the Google Books copy of the 1567 Lancashire visitation, published in vol. 81 of the Chesham Society's publications - see p. 118. I can't see any mention of a family of Ireland of Crofton.
https://books.google.com/books?id=41o-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA138&dq=lancaster+rainhill+ireland+hutt&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjl0Ob5w7XrAhWGjp4KHYJ7BskQ6AEwAXoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=lancaster%20rainhill%20ireland%20hutt&f=false
Thanks, yes it seems the ones who married with the Lancasters of Rainhill were of "Hutt and Hale". But I am thinking there is a connection to those Crofton Irelands?
After some digging (and dredging up of old posts), I can confirm that there is indeed a connection between the family of Ireland of Crofton and the family of Ireland of Hale and Hutt, and specifically the Lydiate branch of the latter family.
There is a very detailed pedigree of the family of Ireland of Hale and Hutt, and its Lydiate branch in vol. 5 of James Croston's edition of Edward Baines' History of Lancaster (1893). See pages 50ff here: http://books.google.com/books?id=7k8MAQAAMAAJ
1. Sir John Ireland of the Hutt and Hall; m. Margaret Halsall
2. Thomas Ireland; m. Agnes, dau. of Robert de Blackborne
3. Laurence Ireland of Lydiate; m. Katherine, dau. of Henry Blundell of Little Crosby
4. John Ireland of Lydiate; m. Beatrice, dau. of William Norreys of Speke
5. George Ireland of Lydiate; m. Isabelle, dau. of [John?] Nowell of Read
6. Laurence Ireland of Lydiate; m. Anne, dau. of John Crosse of Crosse Hall
7. William Ireland of Lydiate; m. (2) Eleanor, dau. of Roger Molyneux of Hawkley
8. William Ireland of Nostell Priory; m. Elizabeth, dau. of William Molyneux of Sefton
The Croston/Baines pedigree ends here, but it was carried forward in a 2013 post by Tripp Onnen, the author of the forthcoming article on Capt. John Ireland (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/m-8OAFcVkAo%5B1-25%5D).
9. Sir Francis Ireland of Nostell Priory; m. (2) Elizabeth, dau. of William, 4th Lord Eure
10. William Ireland of Crofton Hall; m. Barbara, dau. of Ralph Eure of Washingborough
11. William Ireland of Crofton Hall; m. Marianna, dau. of Sir John Webbe,1st Bt.
12. John Ireland of Crofton Hall; m. Isabel Jessup
13. Capt. John Ireland and of Maryland
It will be interesting to see the forthcoming articled in TG.
BTW the Croston/Baines pedigree does show a connection to the family of Lancaster of Rainhill, as you suggested - but perhaps not the one you were looking for. Margaret, daughter of Sir John Ireland and Margaret Halsall (#1 above) married Thomas Lancaster of Rainhill - but the Ireland pedigree indicates that the couple had no issue.
Interesting. As you've seen, the Lancaster pedigree show her in the main line, with children.
wjhonson
2020-08-27 22:22:44 UTC
Permalink
Although in a post from 2013 it was *stated* that there was some Elizabeth supposed to be the daughter of William 4th Lord Eure of Witton by Lucy Noel, I do not know that such a person ever existed at all.

What is the underlying source for her?
wjhonson
2020-08-27 23:23:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by wjhonson
Although in a post from 2013 it was *stated* that there was some Elizabeth supposed to be the daughter of William 4th Lord Eure of Witton by Lucy Noel, I do not know that such a person ever existed at all.
What is the underlying source for her?
Ralph Eure of Washingborough, was the son of Peter Eure and Barbara Meres
He was baptised at Washingborough 19 Oct 1604

It is not possible that he could have had a grandson born so early as 34 years later

I suggest this line is borken
John Higgins
2020-08-28 17:29:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by wjhonson
Post by wjhonson
Although in a post from 2013 it was *stated* that there was some Elizabeth supposed to be the daughter of William 4th Lord Eure of Witton by Lucy Noel, I do not know that such a person ever existed at all.
What is the underlying source for her?
Ralph Eure of Washingborough, was the son of Peter Eure and Barbara Meres
He was baptised at Washingborough 19 Oct 1604
It is not possible that he could have had a grandson born so early as 34 years later
I suggest this line is borken
Which grandson of Ralph Eure of Washingborough are you referring to, and what is your source for his birth date? If it's Blessed William Ireland, this was discussed in the 2013 thread, and it was agreed that his parents have probably been misidentified.

At the moment, the only information we have on the line from Sir Francis Ireland of Nostell down to Capt. John Ireland of Maryland is the brief overview (without sources) that Tripp Onnen provided in his 2013 post (see link earlier in this thread). Presumably this line is more fully discussed (and documented) in his forthcoming article. But it would be helpful if he could discuss these issues here to allay your concerns that the line might be "borken". :-)
Mark Jennings
2020-08-28 18:06:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by wjhonson
Post by wjhonson
Although in a post from 2013 it was *stated* that there was some Elizabeth supposed to be the daughter of William 4th Lord Eure of Witton by Lucy Noel, I do not know that such a person ever existed at all.
What is the underlying source for her?
Ralph Eure of Washingborough, was the son of Peter Eure and Barbara Meres
He was baptised at Washingborough 19 Oct 1604
It is not possible that he could have had a grandson born so early as 34 years later
I suggest this line is borken
Who is the grandson of Ralph Eure that was born 34 years after 1604? Do you mean William Ireland the Jesuit executed in 1678? While it is true (as the 2013 thread says) that ODNB calls him the son of William Ireland of Crofton by his wife "Eleanor" Eure, this seems to be in error. The elder William Ireland's wife was named Barbara [Eure] - they are both named in the 1649 deed that Derek Howard detailed in 2013. The name Eleanor for the Jesuit's mother seems based on the various trial records, where his sister Anne and mother Eleanor gave testimony - eg State Trials, p 1246 here:https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VYA-AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

This indicates that the identification of William the Jesuit as a son of the elder William Ireland of Crofton is in error. Is there another purported grandson with a birthdate in the 1630s? We know that the elder William and his wife Barbara were married by 1649, and we also know from the 1716 Bill of Complaint posted by Tripp in 2013 that his heir the younger William Ireland married his wife Mariana in about 1676 (marriage settlement dated 13 September 1676) - I'm not aware of any other relevant dates. A marriage date of 1676 is certainly consistent with the younger William being born circa 1650 and thus having as his maternal grandfather a man baptised in 1604.

As for Elizabeth the wife of Sir Francis Ireland, the main record I can immediately see to her place within the Eure family is Foster's "additional pedigree" for the Eures at p 615 of his 1875 edition of the Visitations of Yorkshire 1584-5 & 1612, where she is stated to be wife successively to Ireland (administration granted 1634) and Col. Thomas Fairfax. Her PCC will from 1655 calls her Dame Elizabeth Ireland, wife of Colonel Thomas Fairfax, but names no other family; however the 1649 deed referred to earlier calls her "the Hon. Dame Elizabeth Ireland" - she would not be styled The Honourable by virtue of being a knight''s widow, but the style is consistent with her being the daughter of a Baron. I've checked Dugdale's Peerage from 1676, but this only assigns the 4th Lord Eure one daughter, Mary, the wife of Sir William Howard.
Mark Jennings
2020-08-28 18:53:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by wjhonson
Post by wjhonson
Although in a post from 2013 it was *stated* that there was some Elizabeth supposed to be the daughter of William 4th Lord Eure of Witton by Lucy Noel, I do not know that such a person ever existed at all.
What is the underlying source for her?
Ralph Eure of Washingborough, was the son of Peter Eure and Barbara Meres
He was baptised at Washingborough 19 Oct 1604
It is not possible that he could have had a grandson born so early as 34 years later
I suggest this line is borken
Who is the grandson of Ralph Eure that was born 34 years after 1604? Do you mean William Ireland the Jesuit executed in 1678? While it is true (as the 2013 thread says) that ODNB calls him the son of William Ireland of Crofton by his wife "Eleanor" Eure, this seems to be in error. The elder William Ireland's wife was named Barbara [Eure] - they are both named in the 1649 deed that Derek Howard detailed in 2013. The name Eleanor for the Jesuit's mother seems based on the various trial records, where his sister Anne and mother Eleanor gave testimony - eg State Trials, p 1246 here:https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VYA-AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
This indicates that the identification of William the Jesuit as a son of the elder William Ireland of Crofton is in error. Is there another purported grandson with a birthdate in the 1630s? We know that the elder William and his wife Barbara were married by 1649, and we also know from the 1716 Bill of Complaint posted by Tripp in 2013 that his heir the younger William Ireland married his wife Mariana in about 1676 (marriage settlement dated 13 September 1676) - I'm not aware of any other relevant dates. A marriage date of 1676 is certainly consistent with the younger William being born circa 1650 and thus having as his maternal grandfather a man baptised in 1604.
As for Elizabeth the wife of Sir Francis Ireland, the main record I can immediately see to her place within the Eure family is Foster's "additional pedigree" for the Eures at p 615 of his 1875 edition of the Visitations of Yorkshire 1584-5 & 1612, where she is stated to be wife successively to Ireland (administration granted 1634) and Col. Thomas Fairfax. Her PCC will from 1655 calls her Dame Elizabeth Ireland, wife of Colonel Thomas Fairfax, but names no other family; however the 1649 deed referred to earlier calls her "the Hon. Dame Elizabeth Ireland" - she would not be styled The Honourable by virtue of being a knight''s widow, but the style is consistent with her being the daughter of a Baron. I've checked Dugdale's Peerage from 1676, but this only assigns the 4th Lord Eure one daughter, Mary, the wife of Sir William Howard.
***William, son of William and Barbara Ireland, baptised at Crofton, Yorkshire, 16 January 1649/50; his father, William Ireland, esquire, buried 3 October 1661 (Parish Register transcript, www.freereg.org )
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