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A slew of wrong names
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John Higgins
2021-10-26 03:08:21 UTC
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I wonder if this couple had any descendants?
[ca. Sept. 1788]
By special licence, at Clermont, the seat of the Rt. Hon. Earl Tyrconnel, Cha. Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surr. to Mifs Charlotte Walsh, you. da. of Ja. W. esq. of Redbourn.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Gentleman_s_Magazine/l6g2AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=grimstead+redbourne&pg=PA835&printsec=frontcover
The misidentification of Charlotte Walsh's husband as Charles, rather than Joseph Valentine, Grimstead is noted in an article by Edward J. Davies in The Genealogists' Magazine , 30:241-224, which also cites the erroneous entry in the Gentleman's Magazine. The Davies article also cites an earlier article by Anthony Wagner [later Sir Anthony] in The Genealogists' Magazine, 9:7-13 which gives the (accurate) details of the marriage of Joseph Valentine Grimstead and Charlotte Walsh.

Of course Charlotte Walsh is a relatively recent ancestor (in the 5th generation, if I'm counting right) of QEII. And Charlotte's sister Mary Elizabeth was an ancestor of the Queen in the 6th generation. It was the Davies article above which first corrected the parentage of Charlotte and thus identified that the two women were sisters.

So...it seems that the social journals of London at that time (e.g., Th e Genetleman's Magazine, and others) were passing around misinformation regarding the wedding. It sounds rather like some parts of the Internet today...
Johnny Brananas
2021-10-26 13:50:50 UTC
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I wonder if this couple had any descendants?
[ca. Sept. 1788]
By special licence, at Clermont, the seat of the Rt. Hon. Earl Tyrconnel, Cha. Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surr. to Mifs Charlotte Walsh, you. da. of Ja. W. esq. of Redbourn.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Gentleman_s_Magazine/l6g2AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=grimstead+redbourne&pg=PA835&printsec=frontcover
The misidentification of Charlotte Walsh's husband as Charles, rather than Joseph Valentine, Grimstead is noted in an article by Edward J. Davies in The Genealogists' Magazine , 30:241-224, which also cites the erroneous entry in the Gentleman's Magazine. The Davies article also cites an earlier article by Anthony Wagner [later Sir Anthony] in The Genealogists' Magazine, 9:7-13 which gives the (accurate) details of the marriage of Joseph Valentine Grimstead and Charlotte Walsh.
Of course Charlotte Walsh is a relatively recent ancestor (in the 5th generation, if I'm counting right) of QEII. And Charlotte's sister Mary Elizabeth was an ancestor of the Queen in the 6th generation. It was the Davies article above which first corrected the parentage of Charlotte and thus identified that the two women were sisters.
So...it seems that the social journals of London at that time (e.g., Th e Genetleman's Magazine, and others) were passing around misinformation regarding the wedding. It sounds rather like some parts of the Internet today...
It's odd they got it so repeatedly wrong, especially with the marriage being on the estate of the Earl of Tyrconnel (a brother of Almeria Carpenter, mistress of the HRH Duke of Gloucester).

Are the Walsh sisters the most recent commoner sibling ancestors of the Queen? They're about as far back in time as Edward, Duke of Kent, and Adolphus of Cambridge.
Johnny Brananas
2021-10-26 14:24:17 UTC
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Post by John Higgins
So...it seems that the social journals of London at that time (e.g., Th e Genetleman's
Magazine, and others) were passing around misinformation regarding the wedding.
It sounds rather like some parts of the Internet today...
It's odd they got it so repeatedly wrong, . . .
Perhaps, perhaps not. As suggested above, it was common practice for such b/m/d material to be shamelessly copied from one publication to another. Alternatively, the publications themselves could have been independent, but it could be that a single correspondent submitted the information to all three publications. Either way, they could all derive from a single initial error.
taf
True; American newspapers in the midwest even sometimes asked for it: "Belle Plaine papers will please copy" at the bottom of an obituary.

However, are we sure that Joseph Valentine's brother Charles wasn't the one who married Charlotte Walsh, while Jos. Valentine himself married another Charlotte ____.
taf
2021-10-26 14:45:46 UTC
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True; American newspapers in the midwest even sometimes asked for it: "Belle Plaine
papers will please copy" at the bottom of an obituary.
Not just in the midwest. In the eighteenth century, before such requests were common, you can see obituaries, shipping news, and other items propagating throughout the country's newspapers like a virus, first showing up in the most relevant paper, then the nearest city, then other major cities and finally those in smaller towns. Because of the curiosity factor, one of my step-ancestors born leap-day 1760 had an item reporting 25th birthday in 1860 copied in one paper after another for months.
However, are we sure that Joseph Valentine's brother Charles wasn't the one who married
Charlotte Walsh, while Jos. Valentine himself married another Charlotte ____.
I would presume the identity of the spouse is made clear in the cited Gen Mag article(s), which I have not pursued. For that matter, I don't even know there WAS a Charles as opposed to it all being due to this error.

taf
taf
2021-11-26 18:38:04 UTC
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I have no idea how the name Charles got into the picture.
We have at least two independent sources calling him Charles, even though his name was Joseph Valentine, and I while both could independnetly get the name wrong, it is unlikely they would alight on the same alternative by sheer coincidence. I have to think this was indeed 'his name', some sort of schoolboy or family nickname of the quirkier sort arising through some atypical circumstance.

taf
John Higgins
2021-11-26 19:59:01 UTC
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I have no idea how the name Charles got into the picture.
We have at least two independent sources calling him Charles, even though his name was Joseph Valentine, and I while both could independnetly get the name wrong, it is unlikely they would alight on the same alternative by sheer coincidence. I have to think this was indeed 'his name', some sort of schoolboy or family nickname of the quirkier sort arising through some atypical circumstance.
taf
I don't know that we can say that the two sources (St. James's Magazine and the Gentleman's Magazine) were necessarily "independent". They could have gotten the information (including the name "Charles") from the same source (which was simply wrong with respect to the name). We just don't know - and "some sort of schoolboy or family nickname" seems pretty speculative. But any guess as to where the name "Charles" came from is in itself speculative.
taf
2021-11-26 23:47:37 UTC
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Post by John Higgins
I don't know that we can say that the two sources (St. James's Magazine and the Gentleman's Magazine) were necessarily "independent".
I am not certain which one you are calling 'St. James's Magazine', but the accounts we have are:

1. Gentleman's magazine: "By special licence, at Clermont, the seat of the Rt. Hon. Earl Tyrconnel, Cha. Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surr. to Miss Charlotte Walsh, you. da. of Ja. W. of Redbourn."

2. The General Magazine: "By special licence, at Clermont, Charles Grimstead, Esq. to Miss Charlotte Walsh."

3. The Lady's Magazine: "Charles Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surrey, to Miss Charlotte Walsh of Redbourn, Herts.

4. The European Magazine: "Cha. Grimstead, esq., of Leatherhead, Surrey to Miss Charlotte Walsh, youngest daughter of John Walsh, esq. of Redburn, Herts. The Duke of York honoured the ceremony with his presence, and afterwards gave an elegant dinner to the new-married couple, the Countess of Tyrconnel, and a select party, at Oatlands.

There is nothing in #2 not in #1 except for the county where Redbourn is located, which would have been common knowledge, and #3 could come from any of the other three, but the first and the last each have significant information not found in the other, and give a different name for the bride's father. To me it requires a good bit of ad hoc speculation to come up with a scenario where these different very accounts would nonetheless be non-independent.

taf
taf
2021-10-26 15:01:53 UTC
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So, that's four accounts saying it was Charles who married Mifs Charlotte Walsh. Although
they appear to have gotten the bride's father's name right -- John Walsh of Redbourne.
Importantly, this account and the Gentleman's Magazine one each have unique information not in the other. This is not just copying, but could still be the work of a single confused correspondent (plus typesetting errors, e.g. 'Ja.' for 'Jo.' for the father in GentMag).
And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?
Not mutually exclusive - Clermont is reported as the marriage location, Oatlands the 'reception'. The two are about 4 miles apart, 25 minutes in a carriage with decent roads.

taf
Johnny Brananas
2021-10-26 15:15:58 UTC
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So, that's four accounts saying it was Charles who married Mifs Charlotte Walsh. Although
they appear to have gotten the bride's father's name right -- John Walsh of Redbourne.
Importantly, this account and the Gentleman's Magazine one each have unique information not in the other. This is not just copying, but could still be the work of a single confused correspondent (plus typesetting errors, e.g. 'Ja.' for 'Jo.' for the father in GentMag).
And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?
Not mutually exclusive - Clermont is reported as the marriage location, Oatlands the 'reception'. The two are about 4 miles apart, 25 minutes in a carriage with decent roads.
taf
Oh yeah, that works.

The American genealogy Todd linked to apparently cites Ernest William Ainley Walker, _Skrine of Warleigh in the County of Somerset, with Pedigrees: Being Some Materials for a Genealogical History of the Family of Skrine_ (Wessex Press, 1936), p. 166, for information showing that Joseph Valentine's father was a Thomas Grimstead, born ca. 1725, died ca. 1780, who married Eleanor (? Hatch) and had two sons Joseph Valentine and Charles, with Joseph's wife's name not given (but three children mentioned) and Charles's wife listed as Charlotte Walsh of Redbourne. Walker (? Ainley Walker) was aware of the connection to Bowes-Lyon, etc..
Johnny Brananas
2021-10-26 16:14:00 UTC
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Post by Johnny Brananas
So, that's four accounts saying it was Charles who married Mifs Charlotte Walsh. Although
they appear to have gotten the bride's father's name right -- John Walsh of Redbourne.
Importantly, this account and the Gentleman's Magazine one each have unique information not in the other. This is not just copying, but could still be the work of a single confused correspondent (plus typesetting errors, e.g. 'Ja.' for 'Jo.' for the father in GentMag).
And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?
Not mutually exclusive - Clermont is reported as the marriage location, Oatlands the 'reception'. The two are about 4 miles apart, 25 minutes in a carriage with decent roads.
taf
Oh yeah, that works.
The American genealogy Todd linked to apparently cites Ernest William Ainley Walker, _Skrine of Warleigh in the County of Somerset, with Pedigrees: Being Some Materials for a Genealogical History of the Family of Skrine_ (Wessex Press, 1936), p. 166, for information showing that Joseph Valentine's father was a Thomas Grimstead, born ca. 1725, died ca. 1780, who married Eleanor (? Hatch) and had two sons Joseph Valentine and Charles, with Joseph's wife's name not given (but three children mentioned) and Charles's wife listed as Charlotte Walsh of Redbourne. Walker (? Ainley Walker) was aware of the connection to Bowes-Lyon, etc..
Is this reference specifically dating the marriage to 2 Sept. 1788?
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433081671756&view=1up&seq=588&skin=2021&q1=grimstead
A Joseph Valentine Grinstead was a plaintiff in "Aberdeen v. Watkin" of 1828-30.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10858181

Maybe that was a son?
taf
2021-10-26 17:37:24 UTC
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Is this reference specifically dating the marriage to 2 Sept. 1788?
seems to be
Will Johnson
2021-10-26 20:51:19 UTC
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On Tuesday, October 26, 20
And was it at Oatlands or Clermont?
2 Sep 1788
Esher, co Surrey (Batch M069713)
Will Johnson
2021-10-26 21:12:08 UTC
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https://eehe.org.uk/?p=25553


"His will drawn up at Ashtead, 16 February 1821, was supplemented with a codicil in The Fleet Prison on 8 December 1834 [SHCOL_181/19/11]. He was then close to death and is recorded to have been buried at St Bride’s, Fleet Street, on the following 22 December, aged 77 [Will proved 3 February 1835 – PROB 11/1842].

The relict, Charlotte, survived until 23 November 1848 before dying, at Redbourne, Herts, at the age of 81. Joseph Valentine Grimstead’s main claim to fame is that he was the late Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother’s great great grandfather."
Kristina Hamill
2021-11-26 03:25:06 UTC
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There is a will for a Valentine Grimstead of Spital Square , Middlesex
dated 1809 in which he mentions his "nephew Joseph Valentine Grimstead"'
In response to this, the name Valentine has been in the Grimstead family since as early as the 17th century (that is at least as early as I have found documented, it is still used in my family today), and I would have to check the documents I have, but off the top of my head I am almost certain that Thomas Grimstead was Joseph Valentine's father, Thomas being Valentine's brother, and both Thomas and Valentine were the son of a Valentine Grimstead. So that should check out with Joseph Valentine being Valentine's nephew.
John Higgins
2021-11-26 04:41:14 UTC
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Post by Kristina Hamill
There is a will for a Valentine Grimstead of Spital Square , Middlesex
dated 1809 in which he mentions his "nephew Joseph Valentine Grimstead"'
In response to this, the name Valentine has been in the Grimstead family since as early as the 17th century (that is at least as early as I have found documented, it is still used in my family today), and I would have to check the documents I have, but off the top of my head I am almost certain that Thomas Grimstead was Joseph Valentine's father, Thomas being Valentine's brother, and both Thomas and Valentine were the son of a Valentine Grimstead. So that should check out with Joseph Valentine being Valentine's nephew.
It's great to hear from a descendant of Joseph Valentine Grimstead!! As you probably realize, that makes you a [rather distant) cousin of Queen Elizabeth II.

I think the current state of knowledge (in this group, at least) regarding the Grimstead family is reflected in this pedigree from the Genealogics database:
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00004682&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=6

I know there are a number of people in this group who would be quite interested in knowing if you could provide information that could extend the Grimstead line further back, as this one one of the the first "dead ends" presently encountered in the Queen's ancestry. Any further information on the Grimstead famile (with sources, if possible) would be very welcome here.
John Higgins
2021-11-26 04:49:49 UTC
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Post by Kristina Hamill
There is a will for a Valentine Grimstead of Spital Square , Middlesex
dated 1809 in which he mentions his "nephew Joseph Valentine Grimstead"'
In response to this, the name Valentine has been in the Grimstead family since as early as the 17th century (that is at least as early as I have found documented, it is still used in my family today), and I would have to check the documents I have, but off the top of my head I am almost certain that Thomas Grimstead was Joseph Valentine's father, Thomas being Valentine's brother, and both Thomas and Valentine were the son of a Valentine Grimstead. So that should check out with Joseph Valentine being Valentine's nephew.
It's great to hear from a descendant of Joseph Valentine Grimstead!! As you probably realize, that makes you a [rather distant) cousin of Queen Elizabeth II.
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00004682&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=6
I know there are a number of people in this group who would be quite interested in knowing if you could provide information that could extend the Grimstead line further back, as this one one of the the first "dead ends" presently encountered in the Queen's ancestry. Any further information on the Grimstead famile (with sources, if possible) would be very welcome here.
BTW there appear to be a couple of royal descents behind Eleanor Creswick, the mother of Joseph Valentine Grimstead, but they're quite remote. The most recent royal descent from an English king appears to be from King John "Lackland" of Magna Carta fame..
taf
2021-11-26 23:50:28 UTC
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I spoke too quickly regarding the royal descents for Eleanor Creswick, the mother of Joseph Valentine Grimstead. They depend on the parentage of Petronell Chudleigh, wife of Anthony Pollard, which may be uncertain and which I've asked about in another thread today.
Petronell still descends from Joan Champernowne, so if one accepts either the Richard of Cornwall or Robert of Gloucester descents claimed for her ancestry, the royal descent would be valid.

taf
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2021-11-27 01:56:11 UTC
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He has a profile at Wikitree.
John Higgins
2021-11-27 05:13:35 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
He has a profile at Wikitree.
WHO???
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2021-11-27 11:19:03 UTC
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Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
He has a profile at Wikitree.
WHO???
Sorry. I didn't say as I was about to go to sleep and thought you would understand from the context. I meant Joseph Valentine Grimstead.
John Higgins
2021-11-27 18:18:10 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
He has a profile at Wikitree.
WHO???
Sorry. I didn't say as I was about to go to sleep and thought you would understand from the context. I meant Joseph Valentine Grimstead.
Here is the pedigree that you're presumably refering to:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Grimstead-9

At least in the Grimstead line, it seems to have the usual high-quality sources that we've come to expect from Wikitree: mainly references to other online databases which are themselves unsourced (e.g., thepeerage.com. fabpedigree).
Kristina Hamill
2021-11-26 03:20:49 UTC
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I wonder if this couple had any descendants?
[ca. Sept. 1788]
By special licence, at Clermont, the seat of the Rt. Hon. Earl Tyrconnel, Cha. Grimstead, esq. of Leatherhead, Surr. to Mifs Charlotte Walsh, you. da. of Ja. W. esq. of Redbourn.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Gentleman_s_Magazine/l6g2AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=grimstead+redbourne&pg=PA835&printsec=frontcover
I couldn't help but find this group while researching my family, and had to join so that I could reply. It was definitely Joseph Valentine Grimstead who married Charlotte Walsh, at least from the documents and archive records I have found pertaining to both of them. He is my ancestor through his son William, and my grandmother is a Grimstead, the name Valentine is still in my family as well- as recently as it being my great aunt's middle name.
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