Discussion:
Welsh Descent for William Goddard of Watertown, Massachusetts (died 1691)
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Ivan the Terrible
2020-08-07 23:29:54 UTC
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SGM Newsgroup,

Does the following Welsh line of descent from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth to 17th century new world immigrant, William Goddard of Watertown, Massachusetts stand up to scrutiny?

Thanks for any help.

Regards,
Ivan

Line of Descent from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of Wales (died 1240) to William Goddard of Watertown, Massachusetts (died 1691):

1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (c.1173 – c.1240) = Joan of Wales (c.1189 – c.1237)
2. Gwladus DDU of Wales (c.1205 – c.1251) = Ralph de Mortimer (c.1190 – c.1246)
3. Roger de Mortimer (c.1231 – c.1282) = Matilda Braose (c.1226 – c.1301)
4. Isabel de Mortimer (c.1248 – c.1274) = John Fitz Alan (c.1246 – c.1272)
5. Maud Fitz Alan (c. 1263 – c. 1302) = Philip Burnell (c.1262 – c.1294)
6. Maud Burnell (c.1290 – c.1338) = John de Haudlo (c.1271 – c.1346)
7. Nicholas Burnell (c.1320 – c.1383) = Mary ____
8. Hugh Burnell (c.1347 – c.1420) = Joyce Botetourt (c.1364 – c.1407)
9. Edward Burnell (c.1371 – c.1415) = Alianor le Strange
10.Margaret Burnell (c.1410 – c.1486) = Edmund Hungerford (c.1405 – c.1484)
11.Thomas Hungerford (c.1430 – c.1494) = Christina Halle (c.1435 – c.1504)
12.John Hungerford (c.1460 – c.1524) = Margaret Blount (c.1458 – c.1531)
13.Margery Hungerford (c.1478 – aft.1538) = Henry Brydges (c.1470 – c.1538/9)
14.Joan Brydges (c.1503 – c.1558) John Gifford (c.1502 - c.1538)
15.Anne Gifford (c.1535 - ?) = Thomas Goddard (c.1532 - c.1597)
16.Richard Goddard (c.1560 - c.1615) = Elizabeth Walrond (c.1558 – aft.1628)
17.Edward Goddard (c.1584 – c.1647) = Priscilla d'Oyley (c.1594 – c.1681)
18.William Goddard of Massachusetts (c. 1627 – c. 1691) = Elizabeth Miles (c.1631 – c.1696)
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-08-07 23:34:16 UTC
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Post by Ivan the Terrible
SGM Newsgroup,
Does the following Welsh line of descent from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth to 17th century new world immigrant, William Goddard of Watertown, Massachusetts stand up to scrutiny?
Thanks for any help.
Regards,
Ivan
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (c.1173 – c.1240) = Joan of Wales (c.1189 – c.1237)
2. Gwladus DDU of Wales (c.1205 – c.1251) = Ralph de Mortimer (c.1190 – c.1246)
3. Roger de Mortimer (c.1231 – c.1282) = Matilda Braose (c.1226 – c.1301)
4. Isabel de Mortimer (c.1248 – c.1274) = John Fitz Alan (c.1246 – c.1272)
5. Maud Fitz Alan (c. 1263 – c. 1302) = Philip Burnell (c.1262 – c.1294)
6. Maud Burnell (c.1290 – c.1338) = John de Haudlo (c.1271 – c.1346)
7. Nicholas Burnell (c.1320 – c.1383) = Mary ____
8. Hugh Burnell (c.1347 – c.1420) = Joyce Botetourt (c.1364 – c.1407)
9. Edward Burnell (c.1371 – c.1415) = Alianor le Strange
10.Margaret Burnell (c.1410 – c.1486) = Edmund Hungerford (c.1405 – c.1484)
11.Thomas Hungerford (c.1430 – c.1494) = Christina Halle (c.1435 – c.1504)
12.John Hungerford (c.1460 – c.1524) = Margaret Blount (c.1458 – c.1531)
13.Margery Hungerford (c.1478 – aft.1538) = Henry Brydges (c.1470 – c.1538/9)
14.Joan Brydges (c.1503 – c.1558) John Gifford (c.1502 - c.1538)
15.Anne Gifford (c.1535 - ?) = Thomas Goddard (c.1532 - c.1597)
16.Richard Goddard (c.1560 - c.1615) = Elizabeth Walrond (c.1558 – aft.1628)
17.Edward Goddard (c.1584 – c.1647) = Priscilla d'Oyley (c.1594 – c.1681)
18.William Goddard of Massachusetts (c. 1627 – c. 1691) = Elizabeth Miles (c.1631 – c.1696)
This line seems correct. Wikitree shows all of it, citing Richardson. Start with https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Goddard-177.
John Higgins
2020-08-08 04:22:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Ivan the Terrible
SGM Newsgroup,
Does the following Welsh line of descent from Llywelyn ap Iorwerth to 17th century new world immigrant, William Goddard of Watertown, Massachusetts stand up to scrutiny?
Thanks for any help.
Regards,
Ivan
1. Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (c.1173 – c.1240) = Joan of Wales (c.1189 – c.1237)
2. Gwladus DDU of Wales (c.1205 – c.1251) = Ralph de Mortimer (c.1190 – c.1246)
3. Roger de Mortimer (c.1231 – c.1282) = Matilda Braose (c.1226 – c.1301)
4. Isabel de Mortimer (c.1248 – c.1274) = John Fitz Alan (c.1246 – c.1272)
5. Maud Fitz Alan (c. 1263 – c. 1302) = Philip Burnell (c.1262 – c.1294)
6. Maud Burnell (c.1290 – c.1338) = John de Haudlo (c.1271 – c.1346)
7. Nicholas Burnell (c.1320 – c.1383) = Mary ____
8. Hugh Burnell (c.1347 – c.1420) = Joyce Botetourt (c.1364 – c.1407)
9. Edward Burnell (c.1371 – c.1415) = Alianor le Strange
10.Margaret Burnell (c.1410 – c.1486) = Edmund Hungerford (c.1405 – c.1484)
11.Thomas Hungerford (c.1430 – c.1494) = Christina Halle (c.1435 – c.1504)
12.John Hungerford (c.1460 – c.1524) = Margaret Blount (c.1458 – c.1531)
13.Margery Hungerford (c.1478 – aft.1538) = Henry Brydges (c.1470 – c.1538/9)
14.Joan Brydges (c.1503 – c.1558) John Gifford (c.1502 - c.1538)
15.Anne Gifford (c.1535 - ?) = Thomas Goddard (c.1532 - c.1597)
16.Richard Goddard (c.1560 - c.1615) = Elizabeth Walrond (c.1558 – aft.1628)
17.Edward Goddard (c.1584 – c.1647) = Priscilla d'Oyley (c.1594 – c.1681)
18.William Goddard of Massachusetts (c. 1627 – c. 1691) = Elizabeth Miles (c.1631 – c.1696)
This line seems correct. Wikitree shows all of it, citing Richardson. Start with https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Goddard-177.
There are (at least) two errors in this descent, as listed by the original poster and as shown in Wikitree. One of of the errors does not affect the descent, but the other one does - making the descent invalid.

1) At #9, Sir Edward Burnell was the son of Hugh Burnell, 2nd Lord Burnell - but by his 1st wife Elizabeth [surname unknown], not his 2nd wife Joyce Botetourt.

2) At #13, Margery Hungerford, wife of Henry Brydges is not the daughter of Sir John Hungerford and his wife Margaret Blount, but by a John Hungerford whose identity is unknown. This specific issue was addressed in an article by Paul C. Reed and Dorothy E. Hopkins in vol. 156 (2002) of NEHGR. Their conclusion was that "the parentage of Henry Brugge's [i.e., Brydges] wife therefore remains undetermined".

The Richardson books agree with points 1 and 2 above. In both cases, the Wikitree profiles cite the Richardson books, but obviously ignored or misinterpreted them.

Interestingly, the Wikitree profile for Henry Brydges notes the uncertainty about the identity of John Hungerford and says "this is being investigated" and even cites the NEHGR article. However the Wikitree profile for his wife Margery also cites the NEHGR article - but jumps to the (unsupported) conclusion that her parents were Sir John Hungerford and his wife Margaret Blount.

Morale of the story: don't cite Wikitree unless you check it out. It's not OK to say that "this line seems correct" just because "Wikitree shows all of it", even if Richardson is cited there.
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