Discussion:
Possible aditional lines through Neville of Chevet for John Fenwick of S.C.
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r***@yahoo.com
2018-02-06 19:47:36 UTC
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Various sources claim that John Fenwick, a settler in South Carolina, was descended from Edward Fenwick "of Stanton," and his wife Sarah Neville.

Sarah Neville seems to have remained untraced in most accounts of the S.C. family, but I would like to suggest she is the Sarah, daughter of Henry Neville of Chevet, Yorks., shown as married to William [sic?] Fenwick "of Stanton," in Clay's elaboration of Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire.

https://books.google.com/books?id=FqJCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA158&dq=%22william+fenwick%22+stanton+chevet&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR7sa7gpLZAhVGzlkKHXj5B7gQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22william%20fenwick%22%20stanton%20chevet&f=false

See History of Northumberland, a pedigree in which a contemporary document is cited as showing her to be the sister of "Francis Neville of Chete [sic]."

https://books.google.com/books?id=AxYMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA113&dq=%22william+fenwick+of+stanton%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjF9dr_gZLZAhUkwlkKHVQVC0QQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22william%20fenwick%20of%20stanton%22&f=false

See also (circa pp. 49-51) of ...

https://archive.org/stream/pedigreesofcount02fost#page/n49/mode/2up

If the above pedigrees are substantially correct, it looks as though the following line (among others?) would hold for Fenwicks of South Carolina.


Edward II

John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = Catherine Roet

(legitimated dau) Joan Beaufort = Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland

George Neville, 1st Lord Latimer = Elizabeth Beauchamp (descended from Edward I)

Sir Henry Neville = Joan Bourchier (descended from Edward III)

Richard Neville, 2nd Lord Latimer = Anne Stafford (descended from Henry II)

Dorothy Neville = Sir John Dawnay of Sessay

Dorothy Dawnay = Henry Neville of Chevet

Gervase Neville, Esq., of Chevet = Anne Greenhalgh

Henry Neville, Esq., of Chevet = Eleanor Samford/ Sandford

Sarah Neville (whose eldest brother was named Francis) = Edward Fenwick of Stanton

See also:

https://books.google.com/books?id=FqJCAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22henry+nevile+of+chevet%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdmbrmhJLZAhXBqFkKHbxXAZ0Q6AEISzAG#v=onepage&q=nevile%20dawnay%20chevet&f=false
Nathan Murphy
2018-02-08 01:59:39 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
Various sources claim that John Fenwick, a settler in South Carolina, was descended from Edward Fenwick "of Stanton," and his wife Sarah Neville.
I believe Hon. John Fenwick's nephew Culcheth Golightly (d. SC, 1749), grandfather of Gov. John Drayton of SC, should also be designated a gateway.

https://books.google.com/books?id=qp0KAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA13&lpg=RA1-PA13

http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/golightly/476/

http://www.carolana.com/SC/Governors/jdrayton.html

Nathan
r***@yahoo.com
2018-02-08 16:32:46 UTC
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Yes, I think Culcheth Golightly is in Gary Boyd Roberts' new manuscript. He may be the only actual "Fenwick of S.C." with descendants down to present day.

Does anybody know the status of Gary's book? Back in the fall, he told me the index would be done by Thanksgiving. I hope he's not waiting around to see what is behind the Susanna (Jackson) White article in the current TAG -- I expect he'll be disappointed, if so.
r***@yahoo.com
2018-02-08 22:11:40 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
Yes, I think Culcheth Golightly is in Gary Boyd Roberts' new manuscript. He may be the only actual "Fenwick of S.C." with descendants down to present day.
Does anybody know the status of Gary's book? Back in the fall, he told me the index would be done by Thanksgiving. I hope he's not waiting around to see what is behind the Susanna (Jackson) White article in the current TAG -- I expect he'll be disappointed, if so.
Possibly also he's waiting on the Thomas Dudley book by Brandon Fradd.
j***@gmail.com
2018-02-09 00:21:59 UTC
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Some ten years in the editing... Do you think the Dudley book is close to publication? I hope so.

Joe c
j***@gmail.com
2018-02-09 00:24:42 UTC
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Or do you just mean that he has the new Dudley line in his book but doesn't want to jump the gun before the source is published?

Joe C
r***@yahoo.com
2018-02-09 03:16:14 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
Or do you just mean that he has the new Dudley line in his book but doesn't want to jump the gun before the source is published?
Joe C
No, nothing new in the book so far. But I thought it was you who stated Fradd's book was almost finished.

Gary's manuscript does mention that Fradd is at work on a such a book.
h***@yahoo.com
2018-02-16 10:53:08 UTC
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Does anybody know the status of Gary's book? Back in the fall, he told me the index would be done by Thanksgiving. I hope he's not waiting around to see what is behind the Susanna (Jackson) White article in the current TAG -- I expect he'll be disappointed, if so.

I've been wondering about this myself since I was under the impression it was due to be published last Fall. Yesterday I received an e-mail from the NEHGS about a used book sale and replied by asking about a "revised" release date. The NEHGS Bookstore Sales Coordinator responded as follows:

Thank you for your email. I believe that Mr. Roberts is still making last minute corrections to the manuscript and that we can expect the book to be available in early summer.
r***@yahoo.com
2018-02-16 17:18:05 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
Does anybody know the status of Gary's book? Back in the fall, he told me the index would be done by Thanksgiving. I hope he's not waiting around to see what is behind the Susanna (Jackson) White article in the current TAG -- I expect he'll be disappointed, if so.
Thank you for your email. I believe that Mr. Roberts is still making last minute corrections to the manuscript and that we can expect the book to be available in early summer.
Thanks for the update.

Maybe he's waiting to insert the descent of HRH Meghan, Duchess of Sussex or Clarence, from the Rev. Skipper, one of his immigrants?

The current draft has a line for Camilla Cornwall from immigrant Mrs. Rebecca (Ward) Allen, as well as a line for Princess of Wales from immigrant Alice (Freeman) (Thomson) Parke.

Presumably he has to wait until the marriage comes off to include Markle's ancestral line in his book?
r***@yahoo.com
2018-02-26 19:03:00 UTC
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In the meantime, I've noticed that GPC, the publisher, gives a considerable preview (50+ pages) of the current edition ....

https://genealogical.com/preview/the-royal-descents-of-600-immigrants
r***@yahoo.com
2018-02-08 22:00:31 UTC
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There is a 1756 Prerogative Court of Canterbury will for one "Cultheth Golightly or Culcheth Golightley, Planter of Saint Andrew Berkley, Somerset," who has to be the same person.

Perhaps this will was missed because the place was said to be in county Somerset, rather than in South Carolina?

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D573863
taf
2018-02-08 22:16:19 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
There is a 1756 Prerogative Court of Canterbury will for one "Cultheth Golightly or Culcheth Golightley, Planter of Saint Andrew Berkley, Somerset," who has to be the same person.
Perhaps this will was missed because the place was said to be in county Somerset, rather than in South Carolina?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D573863
Odd that, the original calls him: Culcheth Golightly of the parish of Saint Andrew in Berkley County planter. I don't see any mention of either Somerset or South Carolina. The only geography I see is when he mentions the children of his brother Fenwicke Golightly of the East Indies. (well, that and Canterbury, as in the Prerogative Court of that place.(

taf
r***@yahoo.com
2018-02-08 22:35:11 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by r***@yahoo.com
There is a 1756 Prerogative Court of Canterbury will for one "Cultheth Golightly or Culcheth Golightley, Planter of Saint Andrew Berkley, Somerset," who has to be the same person.
Perhaps this will was missed because the place was said to be in county Somerset, rather than in South Carolina?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D573863
Odd that, the original calls him: Culcheth Golightly of the parish of Saint Andrew in Berkley County planter. I don't see any mention of either Somerset or South Carolina. The only geography I see is when he mentions the children of his brother Fenwicke Golightly of the East Indies. (well, that and Canterbury, as in the Prerogative Court of that place.(
taf
Thanks for checking that, taf. Strange ... I just looked at his entry in the S.C. legislature _Biographical Directory_ and it implies there was a South Carolina will proved 1752 or earlier.
taf
2018-02-08 22:59:30 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
Thanks for checking that, taf. Strange ... I just looked at his entry in the S.C. legislature _Biographical Directory_ and it implies there was a South Carolina will proved 1752 or earlier.
It was, 19 January 1749, Charleston County Wills, book 6, pp. 224-226. Not sure if it is the same will or not - I didn't look at the PCC version closely enough to tell for sure.

I can't figure out who decided Berkley County was in Somerset.

taf
Nathan Murphy
2018-02-09 01:46:38 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
There is a 1756 Prerogative Court of Canterbury will for one "Cultheth Golightly or Culcheth Golightley, Planter of Saint Andrew Berkley, Somerset," who has to be the same person.
Two of John Fenwick's brothers mention a sister Dorothy Golightly [Culcheth's mother] in their wills:

ROBERT FENWICKE

Will of Robert Fenwicke of London Merchant
Will dated: 25 Feb 1713/4
Will proved: 26 Sep 1718 by oath of Edward Fenwick brother and executor
Brother: Edward Fenwicke whole estate, sole executor, he first paying my debts and legacies
Mother: Ann Fenwick £20 for mourning
Brother: John Fenwick £20 for mourning
Sister: Dorothy Golightly £20 for mourning
No relationship stated [NRS]: Mr Samuel Winder a mourning Ring of a Guiney, Mr John Adams a mourning Ring of a Guiney, Mr Benjamin Hodgson a mourning Ring of a Guiney
Said Brot[her] John Fenwick and Sister Dorothy Golightly my portion in the Estate of Sadlingstones in the County of Northumberland equally divided betwixt them
Witnesses: James Thornehull, Mary Platt, Mary Platt

Additional document
Robert Fenwicke Merch[an]t in the City of Cadiz but at present in St Lucar, 8 May 1717
PCC 156-206 Tenison (1718) f. 156
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_310248-00479/969002

EDWARD FENWICKE

Will of Edward Fenwicke of Bedford in the Parish of St Andrew Holbourne in the County of Middlesex Esquire
Will dated: 28 Feb 1736[/7]
Will proved: 24 Oct 1737 by oath of Elizabeth Fenwicke widow and Samuel Wragg two of the Executors; power reserved to Robert Fenwicke Esqr the other executor when he shall apply for the same
Wife: Elizabeth Fenwicke, executrix
Children of my late Sister Dorothy Golightly £2000 equally divided
Servant: John Roberts £100 for his faithful service
Executors: Robert Fenwicke of Lincolns Inn Esquire and Samuel Wragg of Fenchurch Street in the City of London Merchant £50 a peice to buy them mourning
Brother: John Fenwicke of Charles Town in South Carolina Merchant real estate in the County of Northumberland or elsewhere in Great Britaine
Residuary legatee: Edward Fenwicke Son of my said Brother John
Testator's rightful heir to continue to use Fenwicke surname ‘as my said Sirname and Family are of great Antiquity in the said County of Northumberland that my Real Estate there and elsewhere shall continue in my said Name and Family’
Witnesses: Mr Hodgson in Grays Inn, Elizabeth Spalding, Isebela Scott Serv[an]t[e]s to Mr Fenwicke
PCC 199-239 Wake (1737) f. 207
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_311184-00463/51407


Nathan
r***@yahoo.com
2018-02-09 03:22:25 UTC
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Post by Nathan Murphy
Post by r***@yahoo.com
There is a 1756 Prerogative Court of Canterbury will for one "Cultheth Golightly or Culcheth Golightley, Planter of Saint Andrew Berkley, Somerset," who has to be the same person.
ROBERT FENWICKE
Will of Robert Fenwicke of London Merchant
Will dated: 25 Feb 1713/4
Will proved: 26 Sep 1718 by oath of Edward Fenwick brother and executor
Brother: Edward Fenwicke whole estate, sole executor, he first paying my debts and legacies
Mother: Ann Fenwick £20 for mourning
Brother: John Fenwick £20 for mourning
Sister: Dorothy Golightly £20 for mourning
No relationship stated [NRS]: Mr Samuel Winder a mourning Ring of a Guiney, Mr John Adams a mourning Ring of a Guiney, Mr Benjamin Hodgson a mourning Ring of a Guiney
Said Brot[her] John Fenwick and Sister Dorothy Golightly my portion in the Estate of Sadlingstones in the County of Northumberland equally divided betwixt them
Witnesses: James Thornehull, Mary Platt, Mary Platt
Additional document
Robert Fenwicke Merch[an]t in the City of Cadiz but at present in St Lucar, 8 May 1717
PCC 156-206 Tenison (1718) f. 156
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_310248-00479/969002
EDWARD FENWICKE
Will of Edward Fenwicke of Bedford in the Parish of St Andrew Holbourne in the County of Middlesex Esquire
Will dated: 28 Feb 1736[/7]
Will proved: 24 Oct 1737 by oath of Elizabeth Fenwicke widow and Samuel Wragg two of the Executors; power reserved to Robert Fenwicke Esqr the other executor when he shall apply for the same
Wife: Elizabeth Fenwicke, executrix
Children of my late Sister Dorothy Golightly £2000 equally divided
Servant: John Roberts £100 for his faithful service
Executors: Robert Fenwicke of Lincolns Inn Esquire and Samuel Wragg of Fenchurch Street in the City of London Merchant £50 a peice to buy them mourning
Brother: John Fenwicke of Charles Town in South Carolina Merchant real estate in the County of Northumberland or elsewhere in Great Britaine
Residuary legatee: Edward Fenwicke Son of my said Brother John
Testator's rightful heir to continue to use Fenwicke surname ‘as my said Sirname and Family are of great Antiquity in the said County of Northumberland that my Real Estate there and elsewhere shall continue in my said Name and Family’
Witnesses: Mr Hodgson in Grays Inn, Elizabeth Spalding, Isebela Scott Serv[an]t[e]s to Mr Fenwicke
PCC 199-239 Wake (1737) f. 207
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_311184-00463/51407
Nathan
There is more on John Fenwicke of S.C. in the tidbit (see link below) in _Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica_, 3 (1880): 404-05, which names an otherwise unknown first wife, Miss Boone, married in Carolina and died soon without issue. Dates of birth are given for some of his children with his second wife, Elizabeth Gibbes, including the birthdate of his daughter who later became Countess of Deloraine.

https://books.google.com/books?id=s2BIAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA404&dq=%22stock+of+john+fenwicke%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjTida575fZAhXF6IMKHdCtAbIQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22stock%20of%20john%20fenwicke%22&f=false
Nathan Murphy
2018-02-10 04:21:58 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
There is more on John Fenwicke of S.C. in the tidbit (see link below) in _Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica_, 3 (1880): 404-05, which names an otherwise unknown first wife, Miss Boone, married in Carolina and died soon without issue. Dates of birth are given for some of his children with his second wife, Elizabeth Gibbes, including the birthdate of his daughter who later became Countess of Deloraine.
https://books.google.com/books?id=s2BIAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA404&dq=%22stock+of+john+fenwicke%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjTida575fZAhXF6IMKHdCtAbIQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22stock%20of%20john%20fenwicke%22&f=false
I wonder where in the world Howard got that? Here is Culcheth Golightly's father's probate paperwork:

Administration Bond, Estate of Robert Golightly late of ye Towne & County of Newcastle upon Tine deceased
Dated: 1 May 1719
Bondsmen: Alexander (signed) Johnson of Towne and County of Newcastle upon Tyne Linnen Draper, Nicholas (signed) Waugh of the same place, Gentleman, and Adam Felbridge of the same place.
Above bounden Alexander Johnson Administrator
Source: DPRI/3/1719/B, Consistory Court of Durham, FamilySearch, https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DCRJ-2Z?i=31&wc=95XB-PTG%3A1170963568%3Fcc%3D2353049&cc=2353049 .

Renunciation
I Dorothy Golightly Widdow and relict of Robert Golightly late of ye Towne and County of Newcastle upon Tine ... freely and voluntarily Renounce all my Right ... to ye Adm[inistrati]on of my s'd late husbands Goods and Chattells ... requests it be granted to Alexander Johnson
Dated: 1 May 1719
Signed (with wax seal): Dorothy Golightly
Source: DPRI/3/1719/B (dorse), Consistory Court of Durham, FamilySearch, https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DCRJ-V1?i=33&wc=95XB-PTG%3A1170963568%3Fcc%3D2353049&cc=2353049 .


Newcastle upon Tyne All Saints, Northumberland, parish registers
FamilySearch: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939F-YFPY-T?wc=7YYZ-R67%3A1590264381%2C1590264392%2C1590264902&cc=2353070

1719 Apr 16, [buried] Robert Golightly Barber
1723 Sep 04, [buried] Dorothy Wid[ow] of Robert Golightly Barb[e]r


I didn't find any probate paperwork for Dorothy in the Consistory Court of Durham or the Prerogative and Exchequer Courts of York.

Nathan
r***@yahoo.com
2018-02-16 18:46:58 UTC
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Post by Nathan Murphy
Post by r***@yahoo.com
There is a 1756 Prerogative Court of Canterbury will for one "Cultheth Golightly or Culcheth Golightley, Planter of Saint Andrew Berkley, Somerset," who has to be the same person.
ROBERT FENWICKE
Will of Robert Fenwicke of London Merchant
Will dated: 25 Feb 1713/4
Will proved: 26 Sep 1718 by oath of Edward Fenwick brother and executor
Brother: Edward Fenwicke whole estate, sole executor, he first paying my debts and legacies
Mother: Ann Fenwick £20 for mourning
Brother: John Fenwick £20 for mourning
Sister: Dorothy Golightly £20 for mourning
No relationship stated [NRS]: Mr Samuel Winder a mourning Ring of a Guiney, Mr John Adams a mourning Ring of a Guiney, Mr Benjamin Hodgson a mourning Ring of a Guiney
Said Brot[her] John Fenwick and Sister Dorothy Golightly my portion in the Estate of Sadlingstones in the County of Northumberland equally divided betwixt them
Witnesses: James Thornehull, Mary Platt, Mary Platt
Additional document
Robert Fenwicke Merch[an]t in the City of Cadiz but at present in St Lucar, 8 May 1717
PCC 156-206 Tenison (1718) f. 156
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_310248-00479/969002
EDWARD FENWICKE
Will of Edward Fenwicke of Bedford in the Parish of St Andrew Holbourne in the County of Middlesex Esquire
Will dated: 28 Feb 1736[/7]
Will proved: 24 Oct 1737 by oath of Elizabeth Fenwicke widow and Samuel Wragg two of the Executors; power reserved to Robert Fenwicke Esqr the other executor when he shall apply for the same
Wife: Elizabeth Fenwicke, executrix
Children of my late Sister Dorothy Golightly £2000 equally divided
Servant: John Roberts £100 for his faithful service
Executors: Robert Fenwicke of Lincolns Inn Esquire and Samuel Wragg of Fenchurch Street in the City of London Merchant £50 a peice to buy them mourning
Brother: John Fenwicke of Charles Town in South Carolina Merchant real estate in the County of Northumberland or elsewhere in Great Britaine
Residuary legatee: Edward Fenwicke Son of my said Brother John
Testator's rightful heir to continue to use Fenwicke surname ‘as my said Sirname and Family are of great Antiquity in the said County of Northumberland that my Real Estate there and elsewhere shall continue in my said Name and Family’
Witnesses: Mr Hodgson in Grays Inn, Elizabeth Spalding, Isebela Scott Serv[an]t[e]s to Mr Fenwicke
PCC 199-239 Wake (1737) f. 207
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_311184-00463/51407
Nathan
There is more on John Fenwicke of S.C. in the tidbit (see link below) in _Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica_, 3 (1880): 404-05, which names an otherwise unknown first wife, Miss Boone, married in Carolina and died soon without issue. Dates of birth are given for some of his children with his second wife, Elizabeth Gibbes, including the birthdate of his daughter who later became Countess of Deloraine.
https://books.google.com/books?id=s2BIAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA404&dq=%22stock+of+john+fenwicke%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjTida575fZAhXF6IMKHdCtAbIQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22stock%20of%20john%20fenwicke%22&f=false
Are there living descendants of the Countess' sister, Sarah Fenwick, who married the Methodist minister Rev. James Rouquet?

https://books.google.com/books?id=3Nw7AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA435&dq=fenwicke+rouquet&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirl4KAi6vZAhUQ7VMKHe2wCHsQ6AEIMzAC#v=onepage&q=fenwicke%20rouquet&f=false

Supposedly Rev. James Rouquet had three surviving children by his first wife Sarah Fenwicke: James Ann, James, and Sarah.

https://books.google.com/books?id=98dlAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA20&dq=%22james+ann%22+fenwicke&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyy9Ddi6vZAhUM61MKHaMVAE4Q6AEIPTAE#v=onepage&q=%22james%20ann%22%20fenwicke&f=false
Nathan Murphy
2018-02-10 04:47:25 UTC
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Post by taf
Odd that, the original calls him: Culcheth Golightly of the parish of Saint Andrew in Berkley County planter. I don't see any mention of either Somerset or South Carolina. The only geography I see is when he mentions the children of his brother Fenwicke Golightly of the East Indies. (well, that and Canterbury, as in the Prerogative Court of that place.(
taf
A few more items on Robert Golightly's career and sons.

Burial of Culcheth Golightly's brother in India:

1748 Nov 01 Mr Fenwick Golightly of Fort St George

Source: Calcutta, Bengal Presidency, British India Office Ecclesiastical Returns, images, findmypast, https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=bl%2fbind%2f005137420%2f00245&parentid=bl%2fbind%2fd%2f238520&highlights=%22%22

Fort St George was in the city of Madras; however, findmypast's indexers state the place as Calcutta. (?)


Culcheth and Fenwick's father Robert Golightly appears as master in two apprenticeship tax records.

He is called a Barber Surgeon, of Newcastle upon Tyne, in the 1712 apprenticeship tax on Nicholas Bailey.
Source: Britain, Country Apprentices 1710-1808, findmypast, https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbor%2fapprentices%2f008009%2f2

He is called a Barber Surgeon; Tallow & Wax Chandler, of Newcastle upon Tyne, in the 1717 apprenticeship tax on Josiah Green.
Source: Britain, Country Apprentices 1710-1808, findmypast, https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbor%2fapprentices%2f086034%2f2


Robert Golightly's other son, Robert Golightly Jr., names no issue in his brief PCC will:

Will of Robert Golightly
Will dated: 17 Sep 1748
Will proved: 6 Feb 1748[/9] by oath of George Maxwell, Esq., sole executor
My dearly beloved Brother Fenwicke Golightly Trading Merchant in East India his Heirs left entire estate
Sole executor: Mr George Maxwell of Mincing Lane London Merchant
Witnesses: Wm Briscall, Jno Mitchell
Source: PCC 1-45 Lisle (1749) f. 329, Ancestry, https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_311637-00318/519290

In the corresponding Bank of Will Extract we get a few additional details:

Memorand[um] That Robert Golightly of Mincing lane Merchant (in the Will and probate late of the Parish of St Dunstan in the East London but at Newcastle upon Tyne Dec'd) Dyed Possessed of Two hundred Pounds Annuities ... will dated 17 Sep 1748 Constituted and Appointed George Maxwell sole Executor. Proabte dated 6 Feb 1748[/9], Registered 7 Nov 1749.
Source: Bank of England Wills Extracts 1717-1845, findmypast, https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbor%2fboe%2f013%2f0066&parentid=gbor%2fboe%2f702011095%2f1&highlights=%22%22

Nathan
Nathan Murphy
2018-02-10 05:15:49 UTC
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Post by Nathan Murphy
1748 Nov 01 Mr Fenwick Golightly of Fort St George
Source: Calcutta, Bengal Presidency, British India Office Ecclesiastical Returns, images, findmypast, https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=bl%2fbind%2f005137420%2f00245&parentid=bl%2fbind%2fd%2f238520&highlights=%22%22
Fort St George was in the city of Madras; however, findmypast's indexers state the place as Calcutta. (?)
Fort St David, Madras, India, parish registers
1738 May 12, baptised Charlotte Golightly (born 4 Jan 173[?7/]8), daughter of Fenwick Golightly and Charlotte
Source: FamilySearch transcripts, FHL Film 463296


Madrasspatam, Madras, India, parish registers
1742 Jul 26, baptised Mary Golightly (born 1 May 1742), daughter of Fenwick Golightly and Charlotte
1743 Jul 01, baptised Robert Golightly (born 22 Mar 174[?2/]3), son of Fenwick Golightly and Charlotte
1744 Aug 03, baptised William Golightly (born 26 Jun 1744), son of Fenwicke Golightly and Charlotta
Source: FamilySearch transcripts

Fort St. George, Madras, India, parish registers
1743 Sep 15, buried Robert Golightly
1747 Sep 09, buried Chalote Golightly
1748[/9?] Mar 20, buried Mary Golightly


In 'The Directors of the East India Company, 1754-1790,' James Gordon Parker states one of Fenwick Golightly's sons-in-law became a Director:

Richard Becher (d. 1782) of Portman Square, London and of Rooksnest, Surrey
Director of the East India Company 1775-78, 1780-March 1781
Born ?, possibly son of John Becher, drysalter of London, and brother of Jane Becher 'nearly related to a Lord Mayor of that name'; married (1) 29 Nov 1754, in Bengal, Charlotte, da. of Fenwick Golightly, by his wife Charlotte, 1 daughter; married (2) Ann Haselby, at least 2 sons, 1 daughter.
Cites sources: I.O.L., Ct. Bk., B/67, p. 247; G.M., vol. 20 (175 0 ), p. 236; I.0.L., Bengal Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, Ni/i, pt. 1, f. 382; Madras Ecclesiastical Returns, N/2/1, vol. 1, f. 327; Bengal Obituary, p. 5. The will of Jane Becher's husband, Robert Nettleton, director of the Bank of England,
makes it clear that she was Becher's sister (P.R.o., P.C.C., Prob. 11/999, f. 277 (1774)). The 'Lord Mayor' referred to would seem to be Sir Edward Becher, alderman and director of the South Sea Company.

Source: James Gordon Parker, 'The Directors of the East India Company, 1754-1790,' Ph.D., University of Edinburgh, 1977, pp. 18-21; https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/12812986.pdf


Fenwick Golightly petitioned the Mayors Court at Madras-Patnam to fill the vacancy of Attorney of this Honourable Court. He was admitted and sworn an Attorney of this Court 22 Oct 1745.

Source: Pleadings in the Mayor's Court, 1745, Records of Fort St. George 5 (Madras, 1929), 184, https://archive.org/stream/pleadingsinmayor45madr#page/184/mode/2up


1737 Jul 16, Fenwicke Golightly married Charlotte Mansell
Source: 'Marriages at Fort St. George, Madras,' The Genealogist 20 (1904):102, https://books.google.com/books?id=dqJIAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102


Calcutta, Bengal Presidency, India, parish registers
1752 Nov 29, Richard Bocher married Charlotte Golightly
Source: FamilySearch transcripts, FHL Film 510882


Nathan
Nathan Murphy
2018-02-10 06:14:32 UTC
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Post by Nathan Murphy
1748 Nov 01 Mr Fenwick Golightly of Fort St George
A few final India sources, then I'll stop.


Fenwicke Golightly was at Fort St. George by 1730, when he was described as a 'Constant Inhabitant' on a 'List of Persons not in the service of the United East India Company at Forge St. George - for the year 1730.'
Source: Diary and Consultation Book, 1730, Records of Fort St. George (Madras, 1930), 157, https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=umn.31951d00680109f;view=1up;seq=169


Fenwick Golightly's daughter Charlotte (Golightly) Becher died 14 Oct 1759 in 21st year. Her only daughter died at Fultah 30 Nov 1756.
Source: Inscription on the steps of the Charnock Mausoleum in Bengal, Past & Present: Journal of the Calcutta Historical Society 10 (1915):165-166, https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.c2556064;view=1up;seq=207
Nathan Murphy
2018-02-23 02:43:25 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
Various sources claim that John Fenwick, a settler in South Carolina, was descended from Edward Fenwick "of Stanton," and his wife Sarah Neville.
Sarah Neville seems to have remained untraced in most accounts of the S.C. family, but I would like to suggest she is the Sarah, daughter of Henry Neville of Chevet, Yorks., shown as married to William [sic?] Fenwick "of Stanton," in Clay's elaboration of Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire.
I checked the will of Henry Neville, Esq., for clarification of the name of his daughter Sarah's husband, but he leaves everything to his son Francis:

Will of Henry Nevile of Cheet in the County of Yorke Esquier sicke and weake in body
Will dated: 9 Mar 1634[/5]
Will proved: 22 Jul 1635 [according to printed calendar]
Requests burial in the parrish Church of Royston in the said County of Yorke
Universal legatee: Francis Nevile quitclaim ‘all manner of debtes Rentes arrearages of Rentes…’
Witnesses: Roger Nevile, William Clayton, and John Pollard
Source: Prerogative and Exchequer Courts of York 42:579, FHL Film 99518; digital image (restricted), FamilySearch.
Nathan Murphy
2018-02-23 02:59:18 UTC
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Post by r***@yahoo.com
Various sources claim that John Fenwick, a settler in South Carolina, was descended from Edward Fenwick "of Stanton," and his wife Sarah Neville.
Stanton belonged to Longhorsley Parish in Northumberland. Longhorsley's lost parish registers prevent us from determining exact dates of baptism, marriage, and burial for the Fenwicks of Stanton. Only four years of entries (1667-1670) survive before 1695. Surviving BTs begin in 1769.

Nathan
r***@yahoo.com
2018-02-26 19:14:48 UTC
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Post by Nathan Murphy
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Various sources claim that John Fenwick, a settler in South Carolina, was descended from Edward Fenwick "of Stanton," and his wife Sarah Neville.
Sarah Neville seems to have remained untraced in most accounts of the S.C. family, but I would like to suggest she is the Sarah, daughter of Henry Neville of Chevet, Yorks., shown as married to William [sic?] Fenwick "of Stanton," in Clay's elaboration of Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire.
Will of Henry Nevile of Cheet in the County of Yorke Esquier sicke and weake in body
Will dated: 9 Mar 1634[/5]
Will proved: 22 Jul 1635 [according to printed calendar]
Requests burial in the parrish Church of Royston in the said County of Yorke
Universal legatee: Francis Nevile quitclaim ‘all manner of debtes Rentes arrearages of Rentes…’
Witnesses: Roger Nevile, William Clayton, and John Pollard
Source: Prerogative and Exchequer Courts of York 42:579, FHL Film 99518; digital image (restricted), FamilySearch.
I notice that one of the early links I provided actually said Sarah was the daughter, not sister, of Francis Neville of Chete:

https://books.google.com/books?id=AxYMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA113&dq=%22william+fenwick+of+stanton%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjF9dr_gZLZAhUkwlkKHVQVC0QQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22william%20fenwick%20of%20stanton%22&f=false

Here is another interaction between Edward Fenwick, wife Sarah, and Francis Neville, which does not specify any relationship:

https://books.google.com/books?id=-GYPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA73&dq=%22william+fenwick%22+neville+chete&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi6i53QosTZAhUHvlMKHXN_ByIQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22william%20fenwick%22%20neville%20chete&f=false
Leslie Mahler
2021-07-01 06:27:23 UTC
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Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Various sources claim that John Fenwick, a settler in South Carolina, was descended from Edward Fenwick "of Stanton," and his wife Sarah Neville.
Sarah Neville seems to have remained untraced in most accounts of the S.C. family, but I would like to suggest she is the Sarah, daughter of Henry Neville of Chevet, Yorks., shown as married to William [sic?] Fenwick "of Stanton," in Clay's elaboration of Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire.
https://books.google.com/books?id=FqJCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA158&dq=%22william+fenwick%22+stanton+chevet&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR7sa7gpLZAhVGzlkKHXj5B7gQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22william%20fenwick%22%20stanton%20chevet&f=false
See History of Northumberland, a pedigree in which a contemporary document is cited as showing her to be the sister of "Francis Neville of Chete [sic]."
https://books.google.com/books?id=AxYMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA113&dq=%22william+fenwick+of+stanton%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjF9dr_gZLZAhUkwlkKHVQVC0QQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22william%20fenwick%20of%20stanton%22&f=false
See also (circa pp. 49-51) of ...
https://archive.org/stream/pedigreesofcount02fost#page/n49/mode/2up
If the above pedigrees are substantially correct, it looks as though the following line (among others?) would hold for Fenwicks of South Carolina.
Edward II
John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = Catherine Roet
(legitimated dau) Joan Beaufort = Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland
George Neville, 1st Lord Latimer = Elizabeth Beauchamp (descended from Edward I)
Sir Henry Neville = Joan Bourchier (descended from Edward III)
Richard Neville, 2nd Lord Latimer = Anne Stafford (descended from Henry II)
Dorothy Neville = Sir John Dawnay of Sessay
Dorothy Dawnay = Henry Neville of Chevet
Gervase Neville, Esq., of Chevet = Anne Greenhalgh
Henry Neville, Esq., of Chevet = Eleanor Samford/ Sandford
Sarah Neville (whose eldest brother was named Francis) = Edward Fenwick of Stanton
https://books.google.com/books?id=FqJCAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22henry+nevile+of+chevet%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdmbrmhJLZAhXBqFkKHbxXAZ0Q6AEISzAG#v=onepage&q=nevile%20dawnay%20chevet&f=false
The will of John Fenwick also mentions son-in-law Isaac Whittington esq:

https://archive.org/details/southcarolinahis19121913sout/page/n311/mode/2up

Isaac Whittington was a Member of Parliament. His life is outlined here:

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1754-1790/member/whittington-isaac-1709-73

Isaac was married to Mary Fenwick on 14 Feb. 1735 at Westminster (indexed on Findmypast.com).

This Whittington / Fenwick couple is ancestral to former Prime Minister David Cameron:

https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00129348&tree=LEO

Leslie
Johnny Brananas
2021-07-01 13:57:52 UTC
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Post by Leslie Mahler
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Various sources claim that John Fenwick, a settler in South Carolina, was descended from Edward Fenwick "of Stanton," and his wife Sarah Neville.
Sarah Neville seems to have remained untraced in most accounts of the S.C. family, but I would like to suggest she is the Sarah, daughter of Henry Neville of Chevet, Yorks., shown as married to William [sic?] Fenwick "of Stanton," in Clay's elaboration of Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire.
https://books.google.com/books?id=FqJCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA158&dq=%22william+fenwick%22+stanton+chevet&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR7sa7gpLZAhVGzlkKHXj5B7gQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22william%20fenwick%22%20stanton%20chevet&f=false
See History of Northumberland, a pedigree in which a contemporary document is cited as showing her to be the sister of "Francis Neville of Chete [sic]."
https://books.google.com/books?id=AxYMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA113&dq=%22william+fenwick+of+stanton%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjF9dr_gZLZAhUkwlkKHVQVC0QQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22william%20fenwick%20of%20stanton%22&f=false
See also (circa pp. 49-51) of ...
https://archive.org/stream/pedigreesofcount02fost#page/n49/mode/2up
If the above pedigrees are substantially correct, it looks as though the following line (among others?) would hold for Fenwicks of South Carolina.
Edward II
John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = Catherine Roet
(legitimated dau) Joan Beaufort = Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland
George Neville, 1st Lord Latimer = Elizabeth Beauchamp (descended from Edward I)
Sir Henry Neville = Joan Bourchier (descended from Edward III)
Richard Neville, 2nd Lord Latimer = Anne Stafford (descended from Henry II)
Dorothy Neville = Sir John Dawnay of Sessay
Dorothy Dawnay = Henry Neville of Chevet
Gervase Neville, Esq., of Chevet = Anne Greenhalgh
Henry Neville, Esq., of Chevet = Eleanor Samford/ Sandford
Sarah Neville (whose eldest brother was named Francis) = Edward Fenwick of Stanton
https://books.google.com/books?id=FqJCAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22henry+nevile+of+chevet%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdmbrmhJLZAhXBqFkKHbxXAZ0Q6AEISzAG#v=onepage&q=nevile%20dawnay%20chevet&f=false
https://archive.org/details/southcarolinahis19121913sout/page/n311/mode/2up
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1754-1790/member/whittington-isaac-1709-73
Isaac was married to Mary Fenwick on 14 Feb. 1735 at Westminster (indexed on Findmypast.com).
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00129348&tree=LEO
Leslie
Mary's date of birth is given in a memorandum of the children of John Fenwick of SC which was published in _Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica_ (noted above):

"Febry the 25th, 1707/8, was born their Eldest Daughter who was Baptized and named Mary after her Grandmother by mother side."

The birthdate of her sister, Elizabeth Fenwick, later Countess Deloraine, is also given in the same place: 17 Feb. 1717/8. This is an addition to Cokayne's _Complete Peerage_.
JBrand
2021-07-05 15:58:56 UTC
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Post by Johnny Brananas
Post by Leslie Mahler
Post by r***@yahoo.com
Various sources claim that John Fenwick, a settler in South Carolina, was descended from Edward Fenwick "of Stanton," and his wife Sarah Neville.
Sarah Neville seems to have remained untraced in most accounts of the S.C. family, but I would like to suggest she is the Sarah, daughter of Henry Neville of Chevet, Yorks., shown as married to William [sic?] Fenwick "of Stanton," in Clay's elaboration of Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire.
https://books.google.com/books?id=FqJCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA158&dq=%22william+fenwick%22+stanton+chevet&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR7sa7gpLZAhVGzlkKHXj5B7gQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22william%20fenwick%22%20stanton%20chevet&f=false
See History of Northumberland, a pedigree in which a contemporary document is cited as showing her to be the sister of "Francis Neville of Chete [sic]."
https://books.google.com/books?id=AxYMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA113&dq=%22william+fenwick+of+stanton%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjF9dr_gZLZAhUkwlkKHVQVC0QQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22william%20fenwick%20of%20stanton%22&f=false
See also (circa pp. 49-51) of ...
https://archive.org/stream/pedigreesofcount02fost#page/n49/mode/2up
If the above pedigrees are substantially correct, it looks as though the following line (among others?) would hold for Fenwicks of South Carolina.
Edward II
John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = Catherine Roet
(legitimated dau) Joan Beaufort = Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland
George Neville, 1st Lord Latimer = Elizabeth Beauchamp (descended from Edward I)
Sir Henry Neville = Joan Bourchier (descended from Edward III)
Richard Neville, 2nd Lord Latimer = Anne Stafford (descended from Henry II)
Dorothy Neville = Sir John Dawnay of Sessay
Dorothy Dawnay = Henry Neville of Chevet
Gervase Neville, Esq., of Chevet = Anne Greenhalgh
Henry Neville, Esq., of Chevet = Eleanor Samford/ Sandford
Sarah Neville (whose eldest brother was named Francis) = Edward Fenwick of Stanton
https://books.google.com/books?id=FqJCAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22henry+nevile+of+chevet%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdmbrmhJLZAhXBqFkKHbxXAZ0Q6AEISzAG#v=onepage&q=nevile%20dawnay%20chevet&f=false
https://archive.org/details/southcarolinahis19121913sout/page/n311/mode/2up
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1754-1790/member/whittington-isaac-1709-73
Isaac was married to Mary Fenwick on 14 Feb. 1735 at Westminster (indexed on Findmypast.com).
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00129348&tree=LEO
Leslie
"Febry the 25th, 1707/8, was born their Eldest Daughter who was Baptized and named Mary after her Grandmother by mother side."
The birthdate of her sister, Elizabeth Fenwick, later Countess Deloraine, is also given in the same place: 17 Feb. 1717/8. This is an addition to Cokayne's _Complete Peerage_.
Oh, I suppose I should have written "Countess of Deloraine," as her husband was one of the "Earls of Deloraine" in the British peerage, not some branch of Continental nobility. Is Deloraine from "Mary de Loraine," i.e., Mary of Guise the wife of James V (as the Earls of Deloraine were descendants of Charles II)?
Peter Stewart
2021-07-06 00:22:49 UTC
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Post by JBrand
Oh, I suppose I should have written "Countess of Deloraine," as her husband was one of the "Earls of Deloraine" in the British peerage, not some branch of Continental nobility. Is Deloraine from "Mary de Loraine," i.e., Mary of Guise the wife of James V (as the Earls of Deloraine were descendants of Charles II)?
The title was taken from a part of the Scott estates in the Borders -
Deloraine Burn runs into the Ettrick, a tributary of the Tweed, between
Easter Deloraine and Wester Deloraine. I don't know where the name for
the stream came from - Sir Walter Scott used it for someone in 'Lay of
the Last Minstrel', but didn't explain its origin.

Peter Stewart
Johnny Brananas
2021-07-07 13:37:55 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Oh, I suppose I should have written "Countess of Deloraine," as her husband was one of the "Earls of Deloraine" in the British peerage, not some branch of Continental nobility. Is Deloraine from "Mary de Loraine," i.e., Mary of Guise the wife of James V (as the Earls of Deloraine were descendants of Charles II)?
The title was taken from a part of the Scott estates in the Borders -
Deloraine Burn runs into the Ettrick, a tributary of the Tweed, between
Easter Deloraine and Wester Deloraine. I don't know where the name for
the stream came from - Sir Walter Scott used it for someone in 'Lay of
the Last Minstrel', but didn't explain its origin.
Peter Stewart
Okay, thanks, this makes sense. I suppose Earldoms at that time were still tied to real landholdings, whereas later Lordships and Baronies, at least, could be only a surname or family name ("Baroness Thatcher," etc.).
Peter Stewart
2021-07-07 23:23:01 UTC
Reply
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Post by Johnny Brananas
Post by Peter Stewart
Oh, I suppose I should have written "Countess of Deloraine," as her husband was one of the "Earls of Deloraine" in the British peerage, not some branch of Continental nobility. Is Deloraine from "Mary de Loraine," i.e., Mary of Guise the wife of James V (as the Earls of Deloraine were descendants of Charles II)?
The title was taken from a part of the Scott estates in the Borders -
Deloraine Burn runs into the Ettrick, a tributary of the Tweed, between
Easter Deloraine and Wester Deloraine. I don't know where the name for
the stream came from - Sir Walter Scott used it for someone in 'Lay of
the Last Minstrel', but didn't explain its origin.
Peter Stewart
Okay, thanks, this makes sense. I suppose Earldoms at that time were still tied to real landholdings, whereas later Lordships and Baronies, at least, could be only a surname or family name ("Baroness Thatcher," etc.).
I suspect this became more frequent after the industrial revolution when
peerages were given to people who had more money than land, usually FOR
having amassed a lot of money rather than land.

In the 20th century some of the peers were shocked when the former prime
minister Asquith was made earl of Oxford, a resounding medieval title
revived for someone with no ancestral claim to it. The possibilities
this opened up were appalling, and the worst of all cases was narrowly
averted when Winston Churchill declined to be made duke of London after
having already refused to be duke of Dover. Macmillan becoming earl of
Stockton was a last gasp - Thatcher was supposedly angling to be made
countess of Grantham but had to settle for baroness with her married
surname. Tony Blair probably thinks he should be earl of Muck or some
other suitable Scottish place.

Peter Stewart
Johnny Brananas
2021-07-08 13:30:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Oh, I suppose I should have written "Countess of Deloraine," as her husband was one of the "Earls of Deloraine" in the British peerage, not some branch of Continental nobility. Is Deloraine from "Mary de Loraine," i.e., Mary of Guise the wife of James V (as the Earls of Deloraine were descendants of Charles II)?
The title was taken from a part of the Scott estates in the Borders -
Deloraine Burn runs into the Ettrick, a tributary of the Tweed, between
Easter Deloraine and Wester Deloraine. I don't know where the name for
the stream came from - Sir Walter Scott used it for someone in 'Lay of
the Last Minstrel', but didn't explain its origin.
Peter Stewart
Okay, thanks, this makes sense. I suppose Earldoms at that time were still tied to real landholdings, whereas later Lordships and Baronies, at least, could be only a surname or family name ("Baroness Thatcher," etc.).
I suspect this became more frequent after the industrial revolution when
peerages were given to people who had more money than land, usually FOR
having amassed a lot of money rather than land.
In the 20th century some of the peers were shocked when the former prime
minister Asquith was made earl of Oxford, a resounding medieval title
revived for someone with no ancestral claim to it. The possibilities
this opened up were appalling, and the worst of all cases was narrowly
averted when Winston Churchill declined to be made duke of London after
having already refused to be duke of Dover. Macmillan becoming earl of
Stockton was a last gasp - Thatcher was supposedly angling to be made
countess of Grantham but had to settle for baroness with her married
surname. Tony Blair probably thinks he should be earl of Muck or some
other suitable Scottish place.
Peter Stewart
Maybe they should have a title, the same title, for all prime ministers _while in office_ (i.e., something ceremonial that goes with the position). I suggest "Duke of Chequers." Or maybe "Duke of Checkers," to emphasize the strategic thinking that may be required?
Peter Stewart
2021-07-09 00:04:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Johnny Brananas
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Oh, I suppose I should have written "Countess of Deloraine," as her husband was one of the "Earls of Deloraine" in the British peerage, not some branch of Continental nobility. Is Deloraine from "Mary de Loraine," i.e., Mary of Guise the wife of James V (as the Earls of Deloraine were descendants of Charles II)?
The title was taken from a part of the Scott estates in the Borders -
Deloraine Burn runs into the Ettrick, a tributary of the Tweed, between
Easter Deloraine and Wester Deloraine. I don't know where the name for
the stream came from - Sir Walter Scott used it for someone in 'Lay of
the Last Minstrel', but didn't explain its origin.
Peter Stewart
Okay, thanks, this makes sense. I suppose Earldoms at that time were still tied to real landholdings, whereas later Lordships and Baronies, at least, could be only a surname or family name ("Baroness Thatcher," etc.).
I suspect this became more frequent after the industrial revolution when
peerages were given to people who had more money than land, usually FOR
having amassed a lot of money rather than land.
In the 20th century some of the peers were shocked when the former prime
minister Asquith was made earl of Oxford, a resounding medieval title
revived for someone with no ancestral claim to it. The possibilities
this opened up were appalling, and the worst of all cases was narrowly
averted when Winston Churchill declined to be made duke of London after
having already refused to be duke of Dover. Macmillan becoming earl of
Stockton was a last gasp - Thatcher was supposedly angling to be made
countess of Grantham but had to settle for baroness with her married
surname. Tony Blair probably thinks he should be earl of Muck or some
other suitable Scottish place.
Peter Stewart
Maybe they should have a title, the same title, for all prime ministers _while in office_ (i.e., something ceremonial that goes with the position). I suggest "Duke of Chequers." Or maybe "Duke of Checkers," to emphasize the strategic thinking that may be required?
Prime ministers were conventionally made earls after exiting from
office, starting with Walpole (earl of Orford). Churchill was offered a
dukedom twice, but as far as I know this high an honour was never
thought of before him or since (and wasn't the product of much thought
in his case either, coming from the suggestibility of the queen). He no
doubt relished the offer but was too vain to accept, reportedly in part
because his ancestor John Churchill's fame as duke of Marlborough had
been eclipsed in history by that of Sarah Jennings as duchess, and
partly because he thought his son Randolph would come to disgrace the
title after his death even if Clementine didn't make it her own. Duke of
London would have been a ridiculous legacy for someone who had hidden
underneath the capital through much of his glory days.

Boris Johnson would be well suited by a ridiculous title. He, David
Cameron and Theresa May could vie for the rank of 'dunce of Downing
Street', but since only life peerages at baronial level are given
nowadays a new 'duncial' honour would have to be established first.
However the queen today is probably less suggestible, if not more
thoughtful, than she was in the 1950s.

Peter Stewart

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