Discussion:
re. Bradshaigh of Haigh, Lancs.
(too old to reply)
j***@iquest.net
2011-10-20 18:14:14 UTC
Permalink
I've been trying to figure out the ancestry of Alice Bradshaigh, wife
of Sir John St. John, K.B., son of Sir Oliver St. John and Margaret
Beauchamp, and half-brother of Lady Margaret Beaufort, and am
wondering in anyone else on the list has looked into this.

There seems to be near universal agreement that Alice was the daughter
of Thomas (sometimes referred to as Sir Thomas, but I have no proof,
one way or the other, as to whether or not he was indeed a knight)
Bradshaigh (or Bradshaw) of Haigh, but that's about the only thing I
can find any consensus on.

The VCH Lancaster (vol.4, pp. 115-118) provides what appears to be a
fairly solid sketch of the family over many generations, so based
upon that, it appears that the only Thomas who was heir to Haigh,
would have to be the Thomas who was born ca. 1368 and died sometime
after 1425. Chronologically that would seem to be an okay fit, as
long as Alice was either born late in his life, or if she was a wee
bit older than her husband. Many sources identify Alice' mother as
being a Sherburne, but the VCH indicates that James Bradshaigh (d.
1442), Thomas Bradshaigh's son and heir, was the son of Margaret de
Highfield. Has anyone been able to determine whether or not Thomas
Bradshaigh was ever married to a member of the Sherburne family,
and/or if Margaret de Highfield was a second wife? The VCH also seems
to indicate that Thomas had at least two other sons, Christopher and
Gilbert.

Following the VCH, Thomas is identified as the son of William (d.
1380), who left a widow, Isabel, who was still alive as late as 1398
(but no indication as to whether or not Thomas was Isabel's son or
step-son). William is theorized to have been the son of an elder
William, son of John Bradshaigh, who was one of the two nephews of Sir
William Bradshaigh and his wife Mabel de Norreys, who were Sir
William's heirs; William receiving Haigh and the other nephew, Roger
son of Richard Bradshaigh, receiving Blackrod.

And that's pretty much as far as I've been able to go. There's a
great deal of additional information out there, but very little of it
is sourced.

If anyone can expand upon this, correct it, or even just confirm (or
deny) that this matches their own research, I would appreciate hearing
from you.

Jeff Duvall

***@iquest.net
***@iupui.edu


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James Sever
2011-10-20 21:52:21 UTC
Permalink
Dear Jeff ~

As shown below, there are no less than four visitations which identfy
Alice, wife of Sir John Saint John, as the daughter of Thomas
Bradshaw. Three of them state Thomas Bradshaw was of Haigh (or Haugh,
Hawe, or Haw), Lancashire. Two of them state Thomas Bradshaw was a
knight, two of them make no comment about his status as a knight.

1. Charles, Vis. of Huntingdon 1613 (Camden Soc. 43) (1849): 2 (St.
John ped.: “Joh’es St. John de Bletso, miles. = Alicia, filia Tho.
Bradshaw de Haugh in com. Lanc.”).

2. Flower Vis. of Yorkshire 1563–4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 62–63 (Clifford
ped.: “John Saint John. =… doughter of Thomas a Bradshaw.”).

3. Harvey et al. Vis. of Bedfordshire 1566, 1582, 1634 & 1669 (H.S.P.
19) (1884): 51–54 (Saint John ped.: “Sr John Saint John of Bletneshoe
in com. Bedf. K sonne and heire = Alice daughter of Sr Thomas
Bradshawe of Hawe in com. Lanc. K.”). This source may be viewed at
this weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=v1UdcGWWSqQC&pg=PA52

4. St. George et al. Wiltshire Vis. Peds. 1623, 1628 (H.S.P. 105-6)
(1954): 167–170 (sub St. John ped.: “Johannes St John de Bletzo filius
et heres miles = Alicia filia Tho Bradshaw de Haw militis”).

Alice (Bradshaw) Saint John is presumably the sister of Agnes
Bradshaw, wife of William Risley, Esq., of Lillingston, Oxfordshire
who occurs in the 1564 Visitation of Northamptonshire. In this
visitation, Agnes Bradshaw's father is named as "Sir Thomas Bradshaw
of the Haw, co. Lancaster, Kt." See the weblink below for this
source:

http://books.google.com/books?id=wLgEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA13

The editor of the published 1533 Visitation of Lancashire states that
"Sir Thomas Bradshaigh" of Haigh was born about 1369 (aged 12 in 1381)
and was living 11 Henry IV [1409-1410].

http://books.google.com/books?id=4_UMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA178

If true, then Sir Thomas Bradshaw must have been rather elderly at the
birth of his daughter, Alice. Or, possibly two successive Thomas
Bradshaw's have been morphed into one person.

A document in the A2A Catalogue indicates that "Thomas of Bradshagh of
Hagh" served as a bondman in 1395:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=055-ddl&cid=14-15&kw=of%20Hagh#14-15

"Thomas Bradshagh of Hagh" witnessed a document in 1401:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=055-ddsh&cid=1-96&kw=of%20Hagh#1-96

"Thomas de Bradschagh of Hagh" was witness to a document in 1405:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=132-ddan_1&cid=1-24-33&kw=of%20Hagh#1-24-33

"Thomas of Bradeshagh of Hagh" witnessed a document in 1408:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=055-ddhu&cid=21-9&kw=of%20Hagh#21-9

"Thomas de Bradschagh of Hagh" witnessed another document in 1419:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=132-ddan_1&cid=1-24-38&kw=of%20Hagh#1-24-38

Another record in the A2A Catalogue indicates that "Thomas of
Bradshagh of Hagh" was living 20 July 1423.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=055-ddwh&cid=3-4&kw=Thomas%20Bradshagh#3-4

"Thomas de Bradshagh, of Hagh" witnessed yet another document in 1426:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=055-ddsh&cid=1-136&kw=of%20Hagh#1-136

In none of the above records is there any indication that Thomas
Bradshagh, of Haigh, was knighted. Quite possibly he was knighted
after 1426.

Lastly, Baines History of the County Palatine and Duchy of Lancaster 4
(1891): 292 cites several records concerning the Bradshagh family,
including a grant dated 1422 by Margaret, daughter of Robert de
Highfield, to James Bradshaigh her son. However, it is not likely
that Margaret de Highfield was the wife of Thomas Bradshaw, of Haigh,
as we see from the various records taken from the A2A Catalogue that
Thomas Bradshaw, of Haigh, was still living in 1426. Had Margaret de
Highfield been the wife of Thomas Bradshaw, surely he would have
joined her in the grant dated 1422. I take it then that Margaret de
Highfield was the wife of another member of the Bradshaw family.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
j***@iquest.net
2011-10-21 16:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Douglas,

Thanks for the links, etc. The VCH Lancaster's discussion of the
Bradshaigh's doesn't seem to indicate that there was more than one
Thomas, at least not in the lineage as it succeeded at Haigh, but
sure, it's possible that there might have been two (father and son)
whose records have merged over time. Chronologically it would make
more sense. After all, if Alice's father was the Thomas Bradshaigh
born ca. 1368, that would make him more of a contemporary of her
husband's grandfather, Sir John St. John, who was born between 1360
and 1363 (he died in 1424), rather than her father-in-law, Sir Oliver
St. John who was probably born sometime after Easter 1395. On the
other hand, it's also possible that if her father is the Thomas born
ca. 1368, her mother was in all likelihood not his first wife. I'm
not sure if that would work in favor or against his having married
Margaret de Highfield, although I take your point about the 1422
grant. On the other hand, the VCH account of the family seems
confident that James Bradshaigh, son of Margaret de Highfield, is the
same James who succeeded Thomas Bradshaigh (b. ca. 1368) at Haigh. So,
I'll keep digging.

Jeff



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s***@gmail.com
2019-07-15 08:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@iquest.net
Douglas,
Thanks for the links, etc. The VCH Lancaster's discussion of the
Bradshaigh's doesn't seem to indicate that there was more than one
Thomas, at least not in the lineage as it succeeded at Haigh, but
sure, it's possible that there might have been two (father and son)
whose records have merged over time. Chronologically it would make
more sense. After all, if Alice's father was the Thomas Bradshaigh
born ca. 1368, that would make him more of a contemporary of her
husband's grandfather, Sir John St. John, who was born between 1360
and 1363 (he died in 1424), rather than her father-in-law, Sir Oliver
St. John who was probably born sometime after Easter 1395. On the
other hand, it's also possible that if her father is the Thomas born
ca. 1368, her mother was in all likelihood not his first wife. I'm
not sure if that would work in favor or against his having married
Margaret de Highfield, although I take your point about the 1422
grant. On the other hand, the VCH account of the family seems
confident that James Bradshaigh, son of Margaret de Highfield, is the
same James who succeeded Thomas Bradshaigh (b. ca. 1368) at Haigh. So,
I'll keep digging.
Jeff
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Hi,
Just wondering if during your research into the Bradshaws you have come across any from Kettering in Northamptonshire, England? I am really struggling with this branch.

Thanks,
Sian

Leo
2011-10-20 22:46:05 UTC
Permalink
Dear Jeff,

Not knowing exactly who the parents are of Alice Bradshaigh also involves
the ancestry of Prince William as she is his ancestor (Q 115530 in Gerald
Paget's book on the ancestors of Prince Charles).

Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: <***@iquest.net>
To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 5:14 AM
Subject: re. Bradshaigh of Haigh, Lancs.
Post by j***@iquest.net
I've been trying to figure out the ancestry of Alice Bradshaigh, wife
of Sir John St. John, K.B., son of Sir Oliver St. John and Margaret
Beauchamp, and half-brother of Lady Margaret Beaufort, and am
wondering in anyone else on the list has looked into this.
There seems to be near universal agreement that Alice was the daughter
of Thomas (sometimes referred to as Sir Thomas, but I have no proof,
one way or the other, as to whether or not he was indeed a knight)
Bradshaigh (or Bradshaw) of Haigh, but that's about the only thing I
can find any consensus on.
The VCH Lancaster (vol.4, pp. 115-118) provides what appears to be a
fairly solid sketch of the family over many generations, so based
upon that, it appears that the only Thomas who was heir to Haigh,
would have to be the Thomas who was born ca. 1368 and died sometime
after 1425. Chronologically that would seem to be an okay fit, as
long as Alice was either born late in his life, or if she was a wee
bit older than her husband. Many sources identify Alice' mother as
being a Sherburne, but the VCH indicates that James Bradshaigh (d.
1442), Thomas Bradshaigh's son and heir, was the son of Margaret de
Highfield. Has anyone been able to determine whether or not Thomas
Bradshaigh was ever married to a member of the Sherburne family,
and/or if Margaret de Highfield was a second wife? The VCH also seems
to indicate that Thomas had at least two other sons, Christopher and
Gilbert.
Following the VCH, Thomas is identified as the son of William (d.
1380), who left a widow, Isabel, who was still alive as late as 1398
(but no indication as to whether or not Thomas was Isabel's son or
step-son). William is theorized to have been the son of an elder
William, son of John Bradshaigh, who was one of the two nephews of Sir
William Bradshaigh and his wife Mabel de Norreys, who were Sir
William's heirs; William receiving Haigh and the other nephew, Roger
son of Richard Bradshaigh, receiving Blackrod.
And that's pretty much as far as I've been able to go. There's a
great deal of additional information out there, but very little of it
is sourced.
If anyone can expand upon this, correct it, or even just confirm (or
deny) that this matches their own research, I would appreciate hearing
from you.
Jeff Duvall
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Douglas Richardson
2011-10-20 23:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Dear Jeff ~

As shown below, there are no less than four visitations which identify
Alice, wife of Sir John Saint John, as the daughter of Thomas
Bradshaw. Three of them state Thomas Bradshaw was of Haigh (or Haugh,
Hawe, or Haw), Lancashire. Two of them state Thomas Bradshaw was a
knight, two of them make no comment about his status as a knight.

1. Charles, Vis. of Huntingdon 1613 (Camden Soc. 43) (1849): 2 (St.
John ped.: =93Joh=92es St. John de Bletso, miles. =3D Alicia, filia
Tho. Bradshaw de Haugh in com. Lanc.=94).

2. Flower Vis. of Yorkshire 1563=964 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 62=9663
(Clifford ped.: =93John Saint John. =3D=85 doughter of Thomas a
Bradshaw.=94).

3. Harvey et al. Vis. of Bedfordshire 1566, 1582, 1634 & 1669 (H.S.P.
19) (1884): 51=9654 (Saint John ped.: =93Sr John Saint John of
Bletneshoe
in com. Bedf. K sonne and heire =3D Alice daughter of Sr Thomas
Bradshawe of Hawe in com. Lanc. K.=94). This source may be viewed at
this weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=3Dv1UdcGWWSqQC&pg=3DPA52

4. St. George et al. Wiltshire Vis. Peds. 1623, 1628 (H.S.P. 105-6)
(1954): 167=96170 (sub St. John ped.: =93Johannes St John de Bletzo
filius
et heres miles =3D Alicia filia Tho Bradshaw de Haw militis=94).

Alice (Bradshaw) Saint John is presumably the sister of Agnes
Bradshaw, wife of William Risley, Esq., of Lillingston, Oxfordshire
who occurs in the 1564 Visitation of Northamptonshire. In this
visitation, Agnes Bradshaw's father is named as "Sir Thomas Bradshaw
of the Haw, co. Lancaster, Kt." See the weblink below for this
source:

http://books.google.com/books?id=3DwLgEAAAAIAAJ&pg=3DPA13

Elsewhere, the editor of the published 1533 Visitation of Lancashire
states that "Sir Thomas Bradshaigh" of Haigh was born about 1369 (aged
12 in 1381)
and was living 11 Henry IV [1409-1410].

http://books.google.com/books?id=3D4_UMAAAAYAAJ&pg=3DPA178

If true, then Sir Thomas Bradshaw must have been rather elderly at the
birth of his daughter, Alice. Or, possibly two successive Thomas
Bradshaw's have been morphed into one person.

A document in the A2A Catalogue indicates that "Thomas of Bradshagh of
Hagh" served as a bondman in 1395:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat==3D055-ddl&cid=3D=14-15&kw=3Dof%20Hagh#14-15

"Thomas Bradshagh of Hagh" witnessed a document in 1401:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=3D055-ddsh&cid=3D1-96&kw=3Dof%20Hagh#1-96

"Thomas de Bradschagh of Hagh" was witness to a document in 1405:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=3D132-ddan_1&cid=3D1-24-33&kw=3Dof%20Hagh#1-24-33

"Thomas of Bradeshagh of Hagh" witnessed a document in 1408:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=3D055-ddhu&cid=3D21-9&kw=3Dof%20Hagh#21-9

"Thomas de Bradschagh of Hagh" witnessed another document in 1419:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=3D132-ddan_1&cid=3D1-24-38&kw=3Dof%20Hagh#1-24-38

Another record in the A2A Catalogue indicates that "Thomas of
Bradshagh of Hagh" was living 20 July 1423.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=3D055-ddwh&cid=3D3-4&kw=3DThomas%20Bradshagh#3-4

"Thomas de Bradshagh, of Hagh" witnessed yet another document in 1426:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=3D055-ddsh&cid=3D1-136&kw=3Dof%20Hagh#1-136

In none of the above records is there any indication that Thomas
Bradshagh, of Haigh, was knighted. Quite possibly he was knighted
after 1426.

Lastly, Baines, History of the County Palatine and Duchy of Lancaster,
4 (1891): 292 cites several records concerning the Bradshagh family,
including a grant dated 1422 by Margaret, daughter of Robert de
Highfield, to James Bradshaigh her son. However, it is not likely
that Margaret de Highfield was the wife of Thomas Bradshaw, of Haigh,
as we see from the various records taken from the A2A Catalogue that
Thomas Bradshaw, of Haigh, was still living in 1426. Had Margaret de
Highfield been the wife of Thomas Bradshaw, surely he would have
joined her in the grant dated 1422. I take it then that Margaret de
Highfield was the wife of another member of the Bradshaw family.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Note: If the links for the A2A Catalogue above do not work, the
Catalogue itself may be accessed at:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/default.aspx
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