Discussion:
A long, old, Portuguese line into mid-level nobility: Moreira
(too old to reply)
Francisco Antonio Doria
2005-04-07 08:11:39 UTC
Permalink
Matthew moreira
2021-04-12 04:55:27 UTC
Permalink
This is just the original post; I'll comment on it
later. While this is a reconstruction, it seems to me
rather sound, and might be a rare example, that of a
family of midlevel nobility that extends far into the
past.
fa
PS: Let me add that my viewpoint may be biased here,
for I'm agnatically a Moreira. So, please do take this
line here with a critical eye.
-----------------------------------------------------------
[xi] Conde Froila, que c.c. Glaswintha, viúva de
Ardabasto. Pais de três filhos conhecidos: Pedro, que
segue; Wehrmund (Bermudo), duque de Cantábria, e
Witulus, duque de Cantábria.
Note: I believe that these `dukes of Cantabria'
weren't agnatically descended from Leodegild's house;
their onomastics is too idiosyncratic - Wehrmund,
Froila, Adelfons/Ildefons. I notice that Wehrmund
appears in the Amahl family.
1. Pedro, duque de Cantábria.
Nobre visigodo, atestado c. 700, com certeza membro da
2. Afonso I “o Católico.”
Rei das Astúrias e da Galiza (739-757), n. 693, † 757.
C.c. Ermesenda, †757, filha de Pelágio, † 737,
primeiro rei das Astúrias, em 718, neta de Fávila,
duque de Cantábria, † 705 por Witiza, bisneta de
Chindaswinth, † 653, e de Rekiberga, e trineta de
Swintila II, rei visigodo, filho de Reccared I, n.
566, † 601, rei (586-601), c. (2) em 594 c.
Chlodoswinthe, filha de Sigebert II, rei de Austrasia,
e de Brünnhilde, esta filha de Athanagild, † 566, rei
visigodo. Reccared I era filho de Leodegild I, † 586,
rei visigodo (568-586), c.c. Theodosia, dada como neta
3. Vimarano.
4. Bermudo.
5. Pedro “Tehon.”
Dapifer de Afonso III (rei, 866-910), derrotou os
6. Vímara Peres.
O grande presor, comes portucalensis, † 873. Nome
7. Evenando.
N.c. 870? Proprietário em Freixieiro em 909, junto com
a mulher Truili Davidis. Funcionário da administração
régia ao norte de Portugal. Em 908 (DC 16), declaram,
Evenando e Truili ou Trudili, qui fuimus coniuncti per
uoluntatem parentum nostrorum. No DC 14, de 907,
Odoario Daviz faz doação à irmã Trudili, de
Freixieiro; cita o pai de ambos, Dauid abbas, e assina
Note: This Evenando appears at least in three
documents (Mattoso mentions just one). Geographically
and onomastically I'm placing him as the son of Wigmar
Peres because of his eldest son's name.
8. Guimiro Evenandes.
(Ou Wigmar.) C.c. Anímia. Comprou o mosteiro de S.
9. Trutesendo Guimires.
Atestado entre 976 e 1027, patrono do mosteiro de S.
Salvador de Moreira. Exerceu funções judicantes em
Leça, como o irmão. Era senhor de Louredo, Guilhabreu,
da igreja de S. Veríssimo de Paranhos, e de
Freixieiro, além do mosteiro de Moreira da Maia. C.c.
10. Guterre Trutesendes.
Atestado entre 1031 e 1060; teve funções judicantes em
1048, e con?rmou vários documentos em 1042, 1048 e
1060. Sr. de Guilhabreu, Terroso, Vila Chã, Arães,
Loureiro, Gemunde, Lagoa, Gondinhães. C.c. Ermentro
Gondesendes, atestada entre 1031 e 1057, ?lha de
11. Trutesendo Guterres.
Atestado entre 1030 e 1109. Sr. de Gemunde, Loureiro,
Moreira, Avioso, Moreiró, Cousso, Vilar de Pinheiro,
Carvalhido, Retorta, Mosteiró, Labruge, Vila do Conde,
Parada, Rial, Guidãoes, Foz do Leça, Pampelido,
Arnoso, Tebosa, Espinho. C. c. Gontrode Garcia, ?lha
de Garcia Pinioliz, de quem esta família recebe em
herança uma parte do mosteiro de Santo Tirso. Garcia
Pinioliz é atestado entre 1052 e 1083, e c.c.
Leodegúndia Bermudes; era Garcia Pinioliz ?lho de
Ausenda Abunazar e de Piniolo, e por Ausenda, neto de
Abunazar Lovesendes — que identificamos a Nasrum ibn
Leodesindo, atestado perto de Coimbra em 967 e 968,
fundador do mosteiro de Santo Tirso de Ribadave em
978, e de sua (2a.?) mulher Unisco Godinhes. Abunazar
Lovesendes está no centro da “lenda da Miragaia,'' e
era neto (segundo o Livro de Linhagens) através de sua
mãe Ortega, ou Zaïra bint Zaa’adin, de Zaa’adum al
Umawi (933), descendente do califa al-Walid (711), do
sangue dos califas omíadas — que eram da família de
12. Gonçalo Trutesendes.
Atestado entre 1098 e 1121, sr. de terras em Palmazão,
Mandim, Aveleda, Quiraz, Azevedo, Fajozes, Carcavelos,
Pindelo; patrono do mosteiro de Sesmonde. Con?rma
documentos em 1098 e 1105. C.c. Maria Gonçalves
(atestada entre 1102 e 1144). Seria ?lha de Gonçalo
13. Pedro Gonçalves.
Atestado entre 1145 e 1151; proprietário dos mosteiros
de Moreira, Sesmonde e talvez Mosteiró; com herdades
em Aveleda, Fajosa, Quintã, Celeiro da Torre. Teria
sido quem fez incendiar uma casa de Monio Sarracins em
14. Pedro Pires “de Moreira.”
Vivia ao tempo de Sancho I (1154-1211, rei em 1185) e
de Afonso II (1185-1223, rei em 1211), sr. da Quinta
da Torre da freguesia de Santa Maria de Moreira, em
Note: Lineage books usually start this family here.
His father was surely a Pedro, and among other
such-named midlevel noblemen of that name in that
time-frame we find Pedro Gonçalves, who partly owned
the monastery of Moreira. This, plus the fact that the
onomastics of the preceding generation fully coincides
with that of the next, points towards this link.
15. João Pires de Moreira.
Cavaleiro. Documentado desde 12.1.1268, como executor
testamentário de Mem Pires de Entrida. Teve o padroado
da igreja de Borba de Gondim no tempo de Afonso III,
revogado em 1270, junto de seu sobrinho Gonçalo
Rodrigues. Em 1274 aparece como vassalo de D. Martim
Gil de Riba de Vizela, e testou em 1284, deixando bens
ao mosteiro de Tarouquela, onde pediu para ser
---------------------------
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
http://personals.yahoo.com
Hi May i ask where you got this information from?
taf
2021-04-12 06:43:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew moreira
This is just the original post; I'll comment on it
later. While this is a reconstruction, it seems to me
rather sound, and might be a rare example, that of a
family of midlevel nobility that extends far into the
past.
fa
PS: Let me add that my viewpoint may be biased here,
for I'm agnatically a Moreira. So, please do take this
line here with a critical eye.
-----------------------------------------------------------
[xi] Conde Froila, que c.c. Glaswintha, viúva de
Ardabasto. Pais de três filhos conhecidos: Pedro, que
segue; Wehrmund (Bermudo), duque de Cantábria, e
Witulus, duque de Cantábria.
Note: I believe that these `dukes of Cantabria'
weren't agnatically descended from Leodegild's house;
their onomastics is too idiosyncratic - Wehrmund,
Froila, Adelfons/Ildefons. I notice that Wehrmund
appears in the Amahl family.
1. Pedro, duque de Cantábria.
Nobre visigodo, atestado c. 700, com certeza membro da
2. Afonso I “o Católico.”
Rei das Astúrias e da Galiza (739-757), n. 693, † 757.
C.c. Ermesenda, †757, filha de Pelágio, † 737,
primeiro rei das Astúrias, em 718, neta de Fávila,
duque de Cantábria, † 705 por Witiza, bisneta de
Chindaswinth, † 653, e de Rekiberga, e trineta de
Swintila II, rei visigodo, filho de Reccared I, n.
566, † 601, rei (586-601), c. (2) em 594 c.
Chlodoswinthe, filha de Sigebert II, rei de Austrasia,
e de Brünnhilde, esta filha de Athanagild, † 566, rei
visigodo. Reccared I era filho de Leodegild I, † 586,
rei visigodo (568-586), c.c. Theodosia, dada como neta
3. Vimarano.
4. Bermudo.
5. Pedro “Tehon.”
Dapifer de Afonso III (rei, 866-910), derrotou os
6. Vímara Peres.
O grande presor, comes portucalensis, † 873. Nome
7. Evenando.
N.c. 870? Proprietário em Freixieiro em 909, junto com
a mulher Truili Davidis. Funcionário da administração
régia ao norte de Portugal. Em 908 (DC 16), declaram,
Evenando e Truili ou Trudili, qui fuimus coniuncti per
uoluntatem parentum nostrorum. No DC 14, de 907,
Odoario Daviz faz doação à irmã Trudili, de
Freixieiro; cita o pai de ambos, Dauid abbas, e assina
Note: This Evenando appears at least in three
documents (Mattoso mentions just one). Geographically
and onomastically I'm placing him as the son of Wigmar
Peres because of his eldest son's name.
8. Guimiro Evenandes.
(Ou Wigmar.) C.c. Anímia. Comprou o mosteiro de S.
9. Trutesendo Guimires.
Atestado entre 976 e 1027, patrono do mosteiro de S.
Salvador de Moreira. Exerceu funções judicantes em
Leça, como o irmão. Era senhor de Louredo, Guilhabreu,
da igreja de S. Veríssimo de Paranhos, e de
Freixieiro, além do mosteiro de Moreira da Maia. C.c.
10. Guterre Trutesendes.
Atestado entre 1031 e 1060; teve funções judicantes em
1048, e con?rmou vários documentos em 1042, 1048 e
1060. Sr. de Guilhabreu, Terroso, Vila Chã, Arães,
Loureiro, Gemunde, Lagoa, Gondinhães. C.c. Ermentro
Gondesendes, atestada entre 1031 e 1057, ?lha de
11. Trutesendo Guterres.
Atestado entre 1030 e 1109. Sr. de Gemunde, Loureiro,
Moreira, Avioso, Moreiró, Cousso, Vilar de Pinheiro,
Carvalhido, Retorta, Mosteiró, Labruge, Vila do Conde,
Parada, Rial, Guidãoes, Foz do Leça, Pampelido,
Arnoso, Tebosa, Espinho. C. c. Gontrode Garcia, ?lha
de Garcia Pinioliz, de quem esta família recebe em
herança uma parte do mosteiro de Santo Tirso. Garcia
Pinioliz é atestado entre 1052 e 1083, e c.c.
Leodegúndia Bermudes; era Garcia Pinioliz ?lho de
Ausenda Abunazar e de Piniolo, e por Ausenda, neto de
Abunazar Lovesendes — que identificamos a Nasrum ibn
Leodesindo, atestado perto de Coimbra em 967 e 968,
fundador do mosteiro de Santo Tirso de Ribadave em
978, e de sua (2a.?) mulher Unisco Godinhes. Abunazar
Lovesendes está no centro da “lenda da Miragaia,'' e
era neto (segundo o Livro de Linhagens) através de sua
mãe Ortega, ou Zaïra bint Zaa’adin, de Zaa’adum al
Umawi (933), descendente do califa al-Walid (711), do
sangue dos califas omíadas — que eram da família de
12. Gonçalo Trutesendes.
Atestado entre 1098 e 1121, sr. de terras em Palmazão,
Mandim, Aveleda, Quiraz, Azevedo, Fajozes, Carcavelos,
Pindelo; patrono do mosteiro de Sesmonde. Con?rma
documentos em 1098 e 1105. C.c. Maria Gonçalves
(atestada entre 1102 e 1144). Seria ?lha de Gonçalo
13. Pedro Gonçalves.
Atestado entre 1145 e 1151; proprietário dos mosteiros
de Moreira, Sesmonde e talvez Mosteiró; com herdades
em Aveleda, Fajosa, Quintã, Celeiro da Torre. Teria
sido quem fez incendiar uma casa de Monio Sarracins em
14. Pedro Pires “de Moreira.”
Vivia ao tempo de Sancho I (1154-1211, rei em 1185) e
de Afonso II (1185-1223, rei em 1211), sr. da Quinta
da Torre da freguesia de Santa Maria de Moreira, em
Note: Lineage books usually start this family here.
His father was surely a Pedro, and among other
such-named midlevel noblemen of that name in that
time-frame we find Pedro Gonçalves, who partly owned
the monastery of Moreira. This, plus the fact that the
onomastics of the preceding generation fully coincides
with that of the next, points towards this link.
15. João Pires de Moreira.
Cavaleiro. Documentado desde 12.1.1268, como executor
testamentário de Mem Pires de Entrida. Teve o padroado
da igreja de Borba de Gondim no tempo de Afonso III,
revogado em 1270, junto de seu sobrinho Gonçalo
Rodrigues. Em 1274 aparece como vassalo de D. Martim
Gil de Riba de Vizela, e testou em 1284, deixando bens
ao mosteiro de Tarouquela, onde pediu para ser
---------------------------
Hi May i ask where you got this information from?
Did you notice that this was posted 17 years ago, by someone who no longer participates here?

That said, the sourcing is as follows:

Gens 1 - 3 : pedigree of the kings of Asturias, from the chronicle of Alfonso III

Gen 4 : never seen this before - I suspect it is a generation made up to link the first count of Portugal to the Asturian kings, that the vague similarity between the name of count Vimara in gen. 6 and Vimarano in gen. 3 was just too good to pass up. I would be very much surprised if this is authentic.

Gens 5 - 6 : Vimara Peres is well-documented as count of Portugal. That his father was named Pedro is clear from his patronymic, but I am not at all certain that the event here attributed to him actually applies to the Pedro who was Vimara's father.

Gens 7 -8 : I don't remember seeing Evenando as father of Guimario , but my Portuguese material is packed away. As to the connection going back, between Evenando and Vimara Peres, this is the poster's own speculation, based on the supposition that the forms Guimario and Vimara are different representations of the same name.

Gens 9 - 15 : This is probably all from Mattoso's work on the Portuguese nobility of the 10th and 11th centuries. These generations are reasonably well documented or reasonably argued there.

taf
paulorica...@gmail.com
2021-04-12 09:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Matthew moreira
This is just the original post; I'll comment on it
later. While this is a reconstruction, it seems to me
rather sound, and might be a rare example, that of a
family of midlevel nobility that extends far into the
past.
fa
PS: Let me add that my viewpoint may be biased here,
for I'm agnatically a Moreira. So, please do take this
line here with a critical eye.
-----------------------------------------------------------
[xi] Conde Froila, que c.c. Glaswintha, viúva de
Ardabasto. Pais de três filhos conhecidos: Pedro, que
segue; Wehrmund (Bermudo), duque de Cantábria, e
Witulus, duque de Cantábria.
Note: I believe that these `dukes of Cantabria'
weren't agnatically descended from Leodegild's house;
their onomastics is too idiosyncratic - Wehrmund,
Froila, Adelfons/Ildefons. I notice that Wehrmund
appears in the Amahl family.
1. Pedro, duque de Cantábria.
Nobre visigodo, atestado c. 700, com certeza membro da
2. Afonso I “o Católico.”
Rei das Astúrias e da Galiza (739-757), n. 693, † 757.
C.c. Ermesenda, †757, filha de Pelágio, † 737,
primeiro rei das Astúrias, em 718, neta de Fávila,
duque de Cantábria, † 705 por Witiza, bisneta de
Chindaswinth, † 653, e de Rekiberga, e trineta de
Swintila II, rei visigodo, filho de Reccared I, n.
566, † 601, rei (586-601), c. (2) em 594 c.
Chlodoswinthe, filha de Sigebert II, rei de Austrasia,
e de Brünnhilde, esta filha de Athanagild, † 566, rei
visigodo. Reccared I era filho de Leodegild I, † 586,
rei visigodo (568-586), c.c. Theodosia, dada como neta
3. Vimarano.
4. Bermudo.
5. Pedro “Tehon.”
Dapifer de Afonso III (rei, 866-910), derrotou os
6. Vímara Peres.
O grande presor, comes portucalensis, † 873. Nome
7. Evenando.
N.c. 870? Proprietário em Freixieiro em 909, junto com
a mulher Truili Davidis. Funcionário da administração
régia ao norte de Portugal. Em 908 (DC 16), declaram,
Evenando e Truili ou Trudili, qui fuimus coniuncti per
uoluntatem parentum nostrorum. No DC 14, de 907,
Odoario Daviz faz doação à irmã Trudili, de
Freixieiro; cita o pai de ambos, Dauid abbas, e assina
Note: This Evenando appears at least in three
documents (Mattoso mentions just one). Geographically
and onomastically I'm placing him as the son of Wigmar
Peres because of his eldest son's name.
8. Guimiro Evenandes.
(Ou Wigmar.) C.c. Anímia. Comprou o mosteiro de S.
9. Trutesendo Guimires.
Atestado entre 976 e 1027, patrono do mosteiro de S.
Salvador de Moreira. Exerceu funções judicantes em
Leça, como o irmão. Era senhor de Louredo, Guilhabreu,
da igreja de S. Veríssimo de Paranhos, e de
Freixieiro, além do mosteiro de Moreira da Maia. C.c.
10. Guterre Trutesendes.
Atestado entre 1031 e 1060; teve funções judicantes em
1048, e con?rmou vários documentos em 1042, 1048 e
1060. Sr. de Guilhabreu, Terroso, Vila Chã, Arães,
Loureiro, Gemunde, Lagoa, Gondinhães. C.c. Ermentro
Gondesendes, atestada entre 1031 e 1057, ?lha de
11. Trutesendo Guterres.
Atestado entre 1030 e 1109. Sr. de Gemunde, Loureiro,
Moreira, Avioso, Moreiró, Cousso, Vilar de Pinheiro,
Carvalhido, Retorta, Mosteiró, Labruge, Vila do Conde,
Parada, Rial, Guidãoes, Foz do Leça, Pampelido,
Arnoso, Tebosa, Espinho. C. c. Gontrode Garcia, ?lha
de Garcia Pinioliz, de quem esta família recebe em
herança uma parte do mosteiro de Santo Tirso. Garcia
Pinioliz é atestado entre 1052 e 1083, e c.c.
Leodegúndia Bermudes; era Garcia Pinioliz ?lho de
Ausenda Abunazar e de Piniolo, e por Ausenda, neto de
Abunazar Lovesendes — que identificamos a Nasrum ibn
Leodesindo, atestado perto de Coimbra em 967 e 968,
fundador do mosteiro de Santo Tirso de Ribadave em
978, e de sua (2a.?) mulher Unisco Godinhes. Abunazar
Lovesendes está no centro da “lenda da Miragaia,'' e
era neto (segundo o Livro de Linhagens) através de sua
mãe Ortega, ou Zaïra bint Zaa’adin, de Zaa’adum al
Umawi (933), descendente do califa al-Walid (711), do
sangue dos califas omíadas — que eram da família de
12. Gonçalo Trutesendes.
Atestado entre 1098 e 1121, sr. de terras em Palmazão,
Mandim, Aveleda, Quiraz, Azevedo, Fajozes, Carcavelos,
Pindelo; patrono do mosteiro de Sesmonde. Con?rma
documentos em 1098 e 1105. C.c. Maria Gonçalves
(atestada entre 1102 e 1144). Seria ?lha de Gonçalo
13. Pedro Gonçalves.
Atestado entre 1145 e 1151; proprietário dos mosteiros
de Moreira, Sesmonde e talvez Mosteiró; com herdades
em Aveleda, Fajosa, Quintã, Celeiro da Torre. Teria
sido quem fez incendiar uma casa de Monio Sarracins em
14. Pedro Pires “de Moreira.”
Vivia ao tempo de Sancho I (1154-1211, rei em 1185) e
de Afonso II (1185-1223, rei em 1211), sr. da Quinta
da Torre da freguesia de Santa Maria de Moreira, em
Note: Lineage books usually start this family here.
His father was surely a Pedro, and among other
such-named midlevel noblemen of that name in that
time-frame we find Pedro Gonçalves, who partly owned
the monastery of Moreira. This, plus the fact that the
onomastics of the preceding generation fully coincides
with that of the next, points towards this link.
15. João Pires de Moreira.
Cavaleiro. Documentado desde 12.1.1268, como executor
testamentário de Mem Pires de Entrida. Teve o padroado
da igreja de Borba de Gondim no tempo de Afonso III,
revogado em 1270, junto de seu sobrinho Gonçalo
Rodrigues. Em 1274 aparece como vassalo de D. Martim
Gil de Riba de Vizela, e testou em 1284, deixando bens
ao mosteiro de Tarouquela, onde pediu para ser
---------------------------
Hi May i ask where you got this information from?
Did you notice that this was posted 17 years ago, by someone who no longer participates here?
Gens 1 - 3 : pedigree of the kings of Asturias, from the chronicle of Alfonso III
Gen 4 : never seen this before - I suspect it is a generation made up to link the first count of Portugal to the Asturian kings, that the vague similarity between the name of count Vimara in gen. 6 and Vimarano in gen. 3 was just too good to pass up. I would be very much surprised if this is authentic.
Gens 5 - 6 : Vimara Peres is well-documented as count of Portugal. That his father was named Pedro is clear from his patronymic, but I am not at all certain that the event here attributed to him actually applies to the Pedro who was Vimara's father.
Gens 7 -8 : I don't remember seeing Evenando as father of Guimario , but my Portuguese material is packed away. As to the connection going back, between Evenando and Vimara Peres, this is the poster's own speculation, based on the supposition that the forms Guimario and Vimara are different representations of the same name.
Gens 9 - 15 : This is probably all from Mattoso's work on the Portuguese nobility of the 10th and 11th centuries. These generations are reasonably well documented or reasonably argued there.
taf
Dear Todd, you may not have noticed, I don't remember having back then, but Doria posted here once again back in 2019, in https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/tGZVazIEKaI/m/m0okbaUiBAAJ.
joseph cook
2021-04-12 13:46:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by taf
Post by Matthew moreira
This is just the original post; I'll comment on it
later. While this is a reconstruction, it seems to me
rather sound, and might be a rare example, that of a
family of midlevel nobility that extends far into the
past.
fa
PS: Let me add that my viewpoint may be biased here,
for I'm agnatically a Moreira. So, please do take this
line here with a critical eye.
-----------------------------------------------------------
[xi] Conde Froila, que c.c. Glaswintha, viúva de
Ardabasto. Pais de três filhos conhecidos: Pedro, que
segue; Wehrmund (Bermudo), duque de Cantábria, e
Witulus, duque de Cantábria.
Note: I believe that these `dukes of Cantabria'
weren't agnatically descended from Leodegild's house;
their onomastics is too idiosyncratic - Wehrmund,
Froila, Adelfons/Ildefons. I notice that Wehrmund
appears in the Amahl family.
1. Pedro, duque de Cantábria.
Nobre visigodo, atestado c. 700, com certeza membro da
2. Afonso I “o Católico.”
Rei das Astúrias e da Galiza (739-757), n. 693, † 757.
C.c. Ermesenda, †757, filha de Pelágio, † 737,
primeiro rei das Astúrias, em 718, neta de Fávila,
duque de Cantábria, † 705 por Witiza, bisneta de
Chindaswinth, † 653, e de Rekiberga, e trineta de
Swintila II, rei visigodo, filho de Reccared I, n.
566, † 601, rei (586-601), c. (2) em 594 c.
Chlodoswinthe, filha de Sigebert II, rei de Austrasia,
e de Brünnhilde, esta filha de Athanagild, † 566, rei
visigodo. Reccared I era filho de Leodegild I, † 586,
rei visigodo (568-586), c.c. Theodosia, dada como neta
3. Vimarano.
4. Bermudo.
5. Pedro “Tehon.”
Dapifer de Afonso III (rei, 866-910), derrotou os
6. Vímara Peres.
O grande presor, comes portucalensis, † 873. Nome
7. Evenando.
N.c. 870? Proprietário em Freixieiro em 909, junto com
a mulher Truili Davidis. Funcionário da administração
régia ao norte de Portugal. Em 908 (DC 16), declaram,
Evenando e Truili ou Trudili, qui fuimus coniuncti per
uoluntatem parentum nostrorum. No DC 14, de 907,
Odoario Daviz faz doação à irmã Trudili, de
Freixieiro; cita o pai de ambos, Dauid abbas, e assina
Note: This Evenando appears at least in three
documents (Mattoso mentions just one). Geographically
and onomastically I'm placing him as the son of Wigmar
Peres because of his eldest son's name.
8. Guimiro Evenandes.
(Ou Wigmar.) C.c. Anímia. Comprou o mosteiro de S.
9. Trutesendo Guimires.
Atestado entre 976 e 1027, patrono do mosteiro de S.
Salvador de Moreira. Exerceu funções judicantes em
Leça, como o irmão. Era senhor de Louredo, Guilhabreu,
da igreja de S. Veríssimo de Paranhos, e de
Freixieiro, além do mosteiro de Moreira da Maia. C.c.
10. Guterre Trutesendes.
Atestado entre 1031 e 1060; teve funções judicantes em
1048, e con?rmou vários documentos em 1042, 1048 e
1060. Sr. de Guilhabreu, Terroso, Vila Chã, Arães,
Loureiro, Gemunde, Lagoa, Gondinhães. C.c. Ermentro
Gondesendes, atestada entre 1031 e 1057, ?lha de
11. Trutesendo Guterres.
Atestado entre 1030 e 1109. Sr. de Gemunde, Loureiro,
Moreira, Avioso, Moreiró, Cousso, Vilar de Pinheiro,
Carvalhido, Retorta, Mosteiró, Labruge, Vila do Conde,
Parada, Rial, Guidãoes, Foz do Leça, Pampelido,
Arnoso, Tebosa, Espinho. C. c. Gontrode Garcia, ?lha
de Garcia Pinioliz, de quem esta família recebe em
herança uma parte do mosteiro de Santo Tirso. Garcia
Pinioliz é atestado entre 1052 e 1083, e c.c.
Leodegúndia Bermudes; era Garcia Pinioliz ?lho de
Ausenda Abunazar e de Piniolo, e por Ausenda, neto de
Abunazar Lovesendes — que identificamos a Nasrum ibn
Leodesindo, atestado perto de Coimbra em 967 e 968,
fundador do mosteiro de Santo Tirso de Ribadave em
978, e de sua (2a.?) mulher Unisco Godinhes. Abunazar
Lovesendes está no centro da “lenda da Miragaia,'' e
era neto (segundo o Livro de Linhagens) através de sua
mãe Ortega, ou Zaïra bint Zaa’adin, de Zaa’adum al
Umawi (933), descendente do califa al-Walid (711), do
sangue dos califas omíadas — que eram da família de
12. Gonçalo Trutesendes.
Atestado entre 1098 e 1121, sr. de terras em Palmazão,
Mandim, Aveleda, Quiraz, Azevedo, Fajozes, Carcavelos,
Pindelo; patrono do mosteiro de Sesmonde. Con?rma
documentos em 1098 e 1105. C.c. Maria Gonçalves
(atestada entre 1102 e 1144). Seria ?lha de Gonçalo
13. Pedro Gonçalves.
Atestado entre 1145 e 1151; proprietário dos mosteiros
de Moreira, Sesmonde e talvez Mosteiró; com herdades
em Aveleda, Fajosa, Quintã, Celeiro da Torre. Teria
sido quem fez incendiar uma casa de Monio Sarracins em
14. Pedro Pires “de Moreira.”
Vivia ao tempo de Sancho I (1154-1211, rei em 1185) e
de Afonso II (1185-1223, rei em 1211), sr. da Quinta
da Torre da freguesia de Santa Maria de Moreira, em
Note: Lineage books usually start this family here.
His father was surely a Pedro, and among other
such-named midlevel noblemen of that name in that
time-frame we find Pedro Gonçalves, who partly owned
the monastery of Moreira. This, plus the fact that the
onomastics of the preceding generation fully coincides
with that of the next, points towards this link.
15. João Pires de Moreira.
Cavaleiro. Documentado desde 12.1.1268, como executor
testamentário de Mem Pires de Entrida. Teve o padroado
da igreja de Borba de Gondim no tempo de Afonso III,
revogado em 1270, junto de seu sobrinho Gonçalo
Rodrigues. Em 1274 aparece como vassalo de D. Martim
Gil de Riba de Vizela, e testou em 1284, deixando bens
ao mosteiro de Tarouquela, onde pediu para ser
---------------------------
Hi May i ask where you got this information from?
Did you notice that this was posted 17 years ago, by someone who no longer participates here?
Gens 1 - 3 : pedigree of the kings of Asturias, from the chronicle of Alfonso III
Gen 4 : never seen this before - I suspect it is a generation made up to link the first count of Portugal to the Asturian kings, that the vague similarity between the name of count Vimara in gen. 6 and Vimarano in gen. 3 was just too good to pass up. I would be very much surprised if this is authentic.
Gens 5 - 6 : Vimara Peres is well-documented as count of Portugal. That his father was named Pedro is clear from his patronymic, but I am not at all certain that the event here attributed to him actually applies to the Pedro who was Vimara's father.
Gens 7 -8 : I don't remember seeing Evenando as father of Guimario , but my Portuguese material is packed away. As to the connection going back, between Evenando and Vimara Peres, this is the poster's own speculation, based on the supposition that the forms Guimario and Vimara are different representations of the same name.
Gens 9 - 15 : This is probably all from Mattoso's work on the Portuguese nobility of the 10th and 11th centuries. These generations are reasonably well documented or reasonably argued there.
taf
Dear Todd, you may not have noticed, I don't remember having back then, but Doria posted here once again back in 2019, in https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/tGZVazIEKaI/m/m0okbaUiBAAJ.
I think the point is that when someone speaks--say 'Who wants lunch'--then leaves the room. Then you show up. Sit down. Wait 17 years and say "cheeseburger", it just seems..odd, since the context is somewhat lost on the people present.

With some context, and addressing it to the group, and not just the OP helps a bit:
"17 years ago Doria posted this line, but I have not seen a source for generation 6; and in fact this is contradicted by source X.
Is anyone aware of one"
--Joe C
taf
2021-04-12 17:39:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Dear Todd, you may not have noticed, I don't remember having back then, but Doria posted here once again back in 2019, in https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/tGZVazIEKaI/m/m0okbaUiBAAJ.
Setting aside the question of Chico's participation history, I noticed something in the thread pointed to here that I can better address now.

One of the more brazen claims a Muhammad descent given in that thread had a certain Vela Iniguez, ancestor of the Guevara, married to a 'Almoravita', daughter of 'Hisham III, [last] Emir of Cordova, d1031'. The logic seems to be 1) the name Almoravita is a reference to a female member of the Almoravid dynasty, but 2) they came to Iberia too late to actually be her parents, so we will just arbitrarily pick a member of the prior Umayyad dynasty to be her father (thus by making her an Umayyada, thereby completely negating step 1 in this logical progression).

As far as I am aware, the only medieval evidence for the existence of this woman is that she is named in the Libro del Linaje de los Senores de Ayala, as 'Urraca Almoravid'. No biographical details are given beyond her being wife of one man and mother of the next. As such, no pedigree tracing her ancestry can be anything but a guess, and in this case a bad guess. There was a family in the same group of local nobles as the Guevara and Ayala with the surname Almoravid. They were not, as could be naively assumed, scions of the invading Moorish dynasty, but instead were given the name after the family head was credited with killing an Almoravid 'king' in battle. There is every reason to think that in giving this woman the Almoravid surname, Fernan Perez de Ayala was simply identifying her as a member of the Christian family that would come to be known by the Almoravid surname, and not to claim for her (and hence himself) a linear descent from Muhammad.

taf
taf
2021-04-25 22:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by taf
As far as I am aware, the only medieval evidence for the existence of this
woman is that she is named in the Libro del Linaje de los Senores de Ayala,
as 'Urraca Almoravid'. No biographical details are given beyond her being
wife of one man and mother of the next. As such, no pedigree tracing her
ancestry can be anything but a guess, and in this case a bad guess. There
was a family in the same group of local nobles as the Guevara and Ayala
with the surname Almoravid. They were not, as could be naively assumed,
scions of the invading Moorish dynasty, but instead were given the name
after the family head was credited with killing an Almoravid 'king' in battle.
There is every reason to think that in giving this woman the Almoravid
surname, Fernan Perez de Ayala was simply identifying her as a member
of the Christian family that would come to be known by the Almoravid
surname, and not to claim for her (and hence himself) a linear descent
from Muhammad.
A follow-up here to clean up the archives. I was confusing stories - the reason the Almoravit founder received his name is unknown, though the naming is attributed to Alfonso I, and probably related to the failed siege of Zaragoza undertaken by the combined armies of Alfonso and Urraca. This man appears in a charter dated 1124 as Lope Lopez, 'called Almoravid', son of Lope Iñiguez de Elcarte. Lope Lopez is documented as a vassal of Alfonso, holding Marañon and other lands in the 1120s through 1131, and is apparently identical to the Lope Lopez who is documented holding Marañon in 1082 and Tobia in 1097 and 1107 as vassal of Alfonso VI.

Historical Pamplona had been partitioned following the murder of Sancho Garces IV, with the western provinces joined to the Leonese realm, with Pamplona itself and the east along with the crown itself going to Sancho of Aragon. It seems likely that Lope Iniguez de Elcarte had thus become a Leonese vassal, and that under his son the vassalage transferred to Urraca and her husband Alfonso, before their falling out ended in nastiness, at which point he went with Alfonso.

There has been some historical confusion regarding this family, because there were four different Pamplona/Aragon noblemen named Lope Lopez at this time, and historically the Almoravid founder has been identified with a Lope Lopez de Liedena, but he had a different paternity so could not be the Almoravid founder, whose father is named in the same document that gives his nickname. For this see: Serafin Olcoz Yanguas, "Cuatro Lope Lopez en el reino de Aragon y Pamplona: el Origin del Linaje Almoravid, y sus relaciones con Liedena, Calahorra y otras tenencias del valle del rio Ebro." _Kalakorikos_ (2028), no. 23, pp. 243-265.

While it is clearly to this family Fernan Perez de Ayala intended to link the Guevara bride, it should be noted that there is no documentation of this marriage prior to the Ayala account 250 years later, and newer scholarly reconstructions of the Guevara pedigree have a different name at this point in the pedigree, adding further reason to view the Ayala account with skepticism.

taf
paulorica...@gmail.com
2021-04-26 00:56:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Matthew moreira
This is just the original post; I'll comment on it
later. While this is a reconstruction, it seems to me
rather sound, and might be a rare example, that of a
family of midlevel nobility that extends far into the
past.
fa
PS: Let me add that my viewpoint may be biased here,
for I'm agnatically a Moreira. So, please do take this
line here with a critical eye.
-----------------------------------------------------------
[xi] Conde Froila, que c.c. Glaswintha, viúva de
Ardabasto. Pais de três filhos conhecidos: Pedro, que
segue; Wehrmund (Bermudo), duque de Cantábria, e
Witulus, duque de Cantábria.
Note: I believe that these `dukes of Cantabria'
weren't agnatically descended from Leodegild's house;
their onomastics is too idiosyncratic - Wehrmund,
Froila, Adelfons/Ildefons. I notice that Wehrmund
appears in the Amahl family.
1. Pedro, duque de Cantábria.
Nobre visigodo, atestado c. 700, com certeza membro da
2. Afonso I “o Católico.”
Rei das Astúrias e da Galiza (739-757), n. 693, † 757.
C.c. Ermesenda, †757, filha de Pelágio, † 737,
primeiro rei das Astúrias, em 718, neta de Fávila,
duque de Cantábria, † 705 por Witiza, bisneta de
Chindaswinth, † 653, e de Rekiberga, e trineta de
Swintila II, rei visigodo, filho de Reccared I, n.
566, † 601, rei (586-601), c. (2) em 594 c.
Chlodoswinthe, filha de Sigebert II, rei de Austrasia,
e de Brünnhilde, esta filha de Athanagild, † 566, rei
visigodo. Reccared I era filho de Leodegild I, † 586,
rei visigodo (568-586), c.c. Theodosia, dada como neta
3. Vimarano.
4. Bermudo.
5. Pedro “Tehon.”
Dapifer de Afonso III (rei, 866-910), derrotou os
6. Vímara Peres.
O grande presor, comes portucalensis, † 873. Nome
7. Evenando.
N.c. 870? Proprietário em Freixieiro em 909, junto com
a mulher Truili Davidis. Funcionário da administração
régia ao norte de Portugal. Em 908 (DC 16), declaram,
Evenando e Truili ou Trudili, qui fuimus coniuncti per
uoluntatem parentum nostrorum. No DC 14, de 907,
Odoario Daviz faz doação à irmã Trudili, de
Freixieiro; cita o pai de ambos, Dauid abbas, e assina
Note: This Evenando appears at least in three
documents (Mattoso mentions just one). Geographically
and onomastically I'm placing him as the son of Wigmar
Peres because of his eldest son's name.
8. Guimiro Evenandes.
(Ou Wigmar.) C.c. Anímia. Comprou o mosteiro de S.
9. Trutesendo Guimires.
Atestado entre 976 e 1027, patrono do mosteiro de S.
Salvador de Moreira. Exerceu funções judicantes em
Leça, como o irmão. Era senhor de Louredo, Guilhabreu,
da igreja de S. Veríssimo de Paranhos, e de
Freixieiro, além do mosteiro de Moreira da Maia. C.c.
10. Guterre Trutesendes.
Atestado entre 1031 e 1060; teve funções judicantes em
1048, e con?rmou vários documentos em 1042, 1048 e
1060. Sr. de Guilhabreu, Terroso, Vila Chã, Arães,
Loureiro, Gemunde, Lagoa, Gondinhães. C.c. Ermentro
Gondesendes, atestada entre 1031 e 1057, ?lha de
11. Trutesendo Guterres.
Atestado entre 1030 e 1109. Sr. de Gemunde, Loureiro,
Moreira, Avioso, Moreiró, Cousso, Vilar de Pinheiro,
Carvalhido, Retorta, Mosteiró, Labruge, Vila do Conde,
Parada, Rial, Guidãoes, Foz do Leça, Pampelido,
Arnoso, Tebosa, Espinho. C. c. Gontrode Garcia, ?lha
de Garcia Pinioliz, de quem esta família recebe em
herança uma parte do mosteiro de Santo Tirso. Garcia
Pinioliz é atestado entre 1052 e 1083, e c.c.
Leodegúndia Bermudes; era Garcia Pinioliz ?lho de
Ausenda Abunazar e de Piniolo, e por Ausenda, neto de
Abunazar Lovesendes — que identificamos a Nasrum ibn
Leodesindo, atestado perto de Coimbra em 967 e 968,
fundador do mosteiro de Santo Tirso de Ribadave em
978, e de sua (2a.?) mulher Unisco Godinhes. Abunazar
Lovesendes está no centro da “lenda da Miragaia,'' e
era neto (segundo o Livro de Linhagens) através de sua
mãe Ortega, ou Zaïra bint Zaa’adin, de Zaa’adum al
Umawi (933), descendente do califa al-Walid (711), do
sangue dos califas omíadas — que eram da família de
12. Gonçalo Trutesendes.
Atestado entre 1098 e 1121, sr. de terras em Palmazão,
Mandim, Aveleda, Quiraz, Azevedo, Fajozes, Carcavelos,
Pindelo; patrono do mosteiro de Sesmonde. Con?rma
documentos em 1098 e 1105. C.c. Maria Gonçalves
(atestada entre 1102 e 1144). Seria ?lha de Gonçalo
13. Pedro Gonçalves.
Atestado entre 1145 e 1151; proprietário dos mosteiros
de Moreira, Sesmonde e talvez Mosteiró; com herdades
em Aveleda, Fajosa, Quintã, Celeiro da Torre. Teria
sido quem fez incendiar uma casa de Monio Sarracins em
14. Pedro Pires “de Moreira.”
Vivia ao tempo de Sancho I (1154-1211, rei em 1185) e
de Afonso II (1185-1223, rei em 1211), sr. da Quinta
da Torre da freguesia de Santa Maria de Moreira, em
Note: Lineage books usually start this family here.
His father was surely a Pedro, and among other
such-named midlevel noblemen of that name in that
time-frame we find Pedro Gonçalves, who partly owned
the monastery of Moreira. This, plus the fact that the
onomastics of the preceding generation fully coincides
with that of the next, points towards this link.
15. João Pires de Moreira.
Cavaleiro. Documentado desde 12.1.1268, como executor
testamentário de Mem Pires de Entrida. Teve o padroado
da igreja de Borba de Gondim no tempo de Afonso III,
revogado em 1270, junto de seu sobrinho Gonçalo
Rodrigues. Em 1274 aparece como vassalo de D. Martim
Gil de Riba de Vizela, e testou em 1284, deixando bens
ao mosteiro de Tarouquela, onde pediu para ser
---------------------------
Hi May i ask where you got this information from?
Did you notice that this was posted 17 years ago, by someone who no longer participates here?
Gens 1 - 3 : pedigree of the kings of Asturias, from the chronicle of Alfonso III
Gen 4 : never seen this before - I suspect it is a generation made up to link the first count of Portugal to the Asturian kings, that the vague similarity between the name of count Vimara in gen. 6 and Vimarano in gen. 3 was just too good to pass up. I would be very much surprised if this is authentic.
Gens 5 - 6 : Vimara Peres is well-documented as count of Portugal. That his father was named Pedro is clear from his patronymic, but I am not at all certain that the event here attributed to him actually applies to the Pedro who was Vimara's father.
Gens 7 -8 : I don't remember seeing Evenando as father of Guimario , but my Portuguese material is packed away. As to the connection going back, between Evenando and Vimara Peres, this is the poster's own speculation, based on the supposition that the forms Guimario and Vimara are different representations of the same name.
Gens 9 - 15 : This is probably all from Mattoso's work on the Portuguese nobility of the 10th and 11th centuries. These generations are reasonably well documented or reasonably argued there.
taf
Looking back at this:
Gen 4: According to https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimarano, Vimarano did have a son named Bermudo. However, the latter is not said to be father of Pedro Theon and grandfather of Vímara Peres. Both https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Theon and https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimara_P%C3%A9rez say Pedro Theon may have been son of Bermudo I of Asturias.
taf
2021-04-26 02:26:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Gen 4: According to https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimarano, Vimarano did have a son named
Bermudo.
I would feel a lot better about this if it wasn't from a source centuries later that reads like a morality story with regard to this incident.
Post by ***@gmail.com
However, the latter is not said to be father of Pedro Theon and grandfather of Vímara Peres. Both
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Theon and https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimara_P%C3%A9rez
say Pedro Theon may have been son of Bermudo I of Asturias.
And neither of them cites a source for this possible affiliation. Given that he is only known from a single document from 867 in which he appears as a witness, it can be nothing but supposition that he is the Pedro who was father of Vimara Perez. Likewise, with him only appearing in a single document that does not name his father, how does one arrive at his parentage (without simply making it up)?

Setting aside the specific lineage being discussed here, pt.wiki is abysmal for this type of thing. Someone (or many someones) having gone hog-wild creating credulous entries based on 'traditional' pedigree sources, making it little better than the worst of the internet genealogy databases.

taf
paulorica...@gmail.com
2021-04-26 22:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by ***@gmail.com
Gen 4: According to https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimarano, Vimarano did have a son named
Bermudo.
I would feel a lot better about this if it wasn't from a source centuries later that reads like a morality story with regard to this incident.
Post by ***@gmail.com
However, the latter is not said to be father of Pedro Theon and grandfather of Vímara Peres. Both
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Theon and https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimara_P%C3%A9rez
say Pedro Theon may have been son of Bermudo I of Asturias.
And neither of them cites a source for this possible affiliation. Given that he is only known from a single document from 867 in which he appears as a witness, it can be nothing but supposition that he is the Pedro who was father of Vimara Perez. Likewise, with him only appearing in a single document that does not name his father, how does one arrive at his parentage (without simply making it up)?
Setting aside the specific lineage being discussed here, pt.wiki is abysmal for this type of thing. Someone (or many someones) having gone hog-wild creating credulous entries based on 'traditional' pedigree sources, making it little better than the worst of the internet genealogy databases.
taf
You have previously mentioned that Portuguese Wikipedia is awful for early Portuguese nobility and that we should never rely on it for that.
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