Discussion:
IPMs Sussex temp Edward III
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Nancy Piccirilli
2020-04-12 22:54:49 UTC
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Happy Easter/Passover everyone
I have been trying to locate the IPM of Sir John Ifield of Sussex temp Edward III. All I can find online is the IPMS for 1-25 Elizabeth. I will be very grateful for any leads.
Nancy
taf
2020-04-12 23:23:16 UTC
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Post by Nancy Piccirilli
Happy Easter/Passover everyone
I have been trying to locate the IPM of Sir John Ifield of Sussex temp Edward III. All I can find online is the IPMS for 1-25 Elizabeth. I will be very grateful for any leads.
Do you know he had one? The published ipms for the reign of Edward III cover 8 volumes, but I started with the older single-volume Calendar for his entire reign, and find none there for John Ifield (see p. 552):

https://books.google.com/books?id=Ht0W3xs6jnMC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=ifield&f=false

For future referenced, the following page has links for all of the published volumes that are available online:

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sources/ipm.shtml

taf
Nancy Piccirilli
2020-04-12 23:56:52 UTC
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Post by Nancy Piccirilli
Happy Easter/Passover everyone
I have been trying to locate the IPM of Sir John Ifield of Sussex temp Edward III. All I can find online is the IPMS for 1-25 Elizabeth. I will be very grateful for any leads.
Nancy
Hi Todd
No, I was just hoping he did. I am trying to find out whether his daughter Katherine married Sir Thomas Foxley, as many online trees claim, or Sir Andrew Peverel as in Pedigrees from The Plea Rolls, pg. 69. (I tend to trust the Plea Rolls more). I find it odd that so many makers of online trees have the same (wrong?) information. Or are they all following each other blindly?
Also I find there were two John Ifields in the first half of the reign of Edward III, the elder dying in 1317 or 1304 and the younger living in 1343. It seems that as Katherine was married before 1305 and died before 1329, and her husband Sir Andrew Peverel was born about 1271 and died about 1328, her father was the elder Sir John, which removes the difficulty; Katherine who married Sir Thomas Foxley was niece of Katherine who married Andrew Peverel. Both Sir Johns were buried in Ifield but the dates and even the name of the church is given variously.
Help!
Thanks,
Nancy
taf
2020-04-13 04:05:13 UTC
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Post by Nancy Piccirilli
No, I was just hoping he did. I am trying to find out whether his
daughter Katherine married Sir Thomas Foxley, as many online trees
claim, or Sir Andrew Peverel as in Pedigrees from The Plea Rolls,
pg. 69. (I tend to trust the Plea Rolls more).
The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. If you don't want to go on trust, however, there should be enough information in the plea roll volume to track down the original case on AALT.
Post by Nancy Piccirilli
I find it odd that so many makers of online trees have the same
(wrong?) information. Or are they all following each other blindly?
Yes, absolutely. The vast majority of trees you find on the internet are just 'ancestor collections'. Most do research, particularly for the medieval period, by bulk harvesting inline GEDCOMs, merging them with one's own without even looking all that closely. One person makes an unwise speculation or data entry error and before you know it, it finds its way into thousands of online pedigrees.
Post by Nancy Piccirilli
Also I find there were two John Ifields in the first half of the
reign of Edward III, the elder dying in 1317 or 1304 and the
younger living in 1343. It seems that as Katherine was married
before 1305 and died before 1329, and her husband Sir Andrew
Peverel was born about 1271 and died about 1328, her father was
the elder Sir John, which removes the difficulty; Katherine who
married Sir Thomas Foxley was niece of Katherine who married
Andrew Peverel.
That is also a possibility.
Post by Nancy Piccirilli
Both Sir Johns were buried in Ifield but the dates and even
the name of the church is given variously.
Could be confused rendering of an authentic burial, could just be different people making different guesses. A memorial this old would be noteworthy, seemingly mentioned in the relevant county historical sources. I note that Cary Elwes in A History of the Castles, Mansions, and Manors of Western Sussex mentions the family:

https://books.google.com/books?id=EG0JAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA124

He says that a Sir John who died in 1317 had three daughters, Margaret, wife of Stephen de Asheway, Catherine, wife of Sir Thomas de Foxby, and Joan, but he also says that Ifield ended up in the hands of Andrew Peverel. John is also named in VCH Sussex, but I am only able to see a snippet, so I can't be sure whatall it says.

Montagu Burrows, in The Family of Brocas of Beaurepaire and Roche Court, says:

"In 1341 he and Katharine, his wife, daughter and coheir of Sir John Ifield, receive permission 'to hear divine service ' in his manor of Ynhurste." citing "Oratoria ex Rob. Wyvill registro (Bodl. Lib.).

https://books.google.com/books?id=T9YKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA282

How does this compare with the date of the Plea Roll case that shows Catharine married to Peverell?

taf
taf
2020-04-13 05:20:40 UTC
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Post by taf
He says that a Sir John who died in 1317 had three daughters, Margaret, wife of Stephen de Asheway, Catherine, wife of Sir Thomas de Foxby, and Joan, but he also says that Ifield ended up in the hands of Andrew Peverel.
OK, looked at the plea roll pedigree (should have done that before). It shows Stephen de Asheway, son of Margaret, and Andrew Peverell, son of Catherine, daughters and coheirs of John Ifield. This was at Michaelmas term, 26 Edward III (1352).

Compare this to a Close Roll entry from 1345 (Edward III, 1343-1346, p. 585):

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=umn.31951d02046532o&view=1up&seq=597

In which Stephen, son of Stephen de Asheway and Margaret, who was daughter and coheiress of John Ifield, and Andrew Peverel and his wife Katherine, the other daughter of Ifield, are seen.

Earlier, in 1331, we see Sir John de Ifeld receiving land, with remainder to his daughter Katherine:
https://books.google.com/books?id=mO9UftCogEsC&pg=PA337

In 1359, the IPM of Otto de Grandisson reports successive knight's fees held by Thomas de Foxle and Stephen de Asshwy.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.l0066756867&view=1up&seq=455

It is hard to harmonize this with the chronology one would derive from Cary Elwes and Burrows, where Margaret, wife of Stephen de Asheway, and Catherine was married to Thomas de Foxley, were children of Sir John d. 1317 and that Katherine and Foxley were living in 1341.

Enough for now, but it looks like the primary records have a lot of information that could be tapped.

taf
Nancy Piccirilli
2020-04-12 23:58:15 UTC
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Post by Nancy Piccirilli
Happy Easter/Passover everyone
I have been trying to locate the IPM of Sir John Ifield of Sussex temp Edward III. All I can find online is the IPMS for 1-25 Elizabeth. I will be very grateful for any leads.
Nancy
Nancy Piccirilli
2020-04-13 22:56:09 UTC
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Post by Nancy Piccirilli
Happy Easter/Passover everyone
I have been trying to locate the IPM of Sir John Ifield of Sussex temp Edward III. All I can find online is the IPMS for 1-25 Elizabeth. I will be very grateful for any leads.
Nancy
Thank you Todd! That gives me a lot of leads to follow.
Nancy
p***@bellsouth.net
2020-05-23 19:49:12 UTC
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Post by Nancy Piccirilli
Happy Easter/Passover everyone
I have been trying to locate the IPM of Sir John Ifield of Sussex temp Edward III. All I can find online is the IPMS for 1-25 Elizabeth. I will be very grateful for any leads.
Nancy
I am late to this because I just joined. Here is what I have concerning John Ifield.
On 20 August 1331, William atte Bysse with Sir Robert de Stangrave and John de Burstowe witnessed the grant by William de Henlee, knight to Sir John de Ifield and Margery (Gyse St. John) his wife of all the lands he had in Ticheseye (Titsey), mentioning a common pasture on the king’s highway between Elmbridge and Croydon. The grant was extended to the “heirs of Sir John de Ifield “to hold to them and to their heirs male of the said John with remainder to Katherine daughter of the said John de Ifield, and to the heirs of her body with remainder to John son of John de Wakehurst and the heirs of his body.” Latimer died 20 April, 10 Edward III (1337) seised of Norbrith (North Frith Noubrith, Nobricht) in Godstow (Godstone), which he held of John de Ifield and Margery (Gyse vide supra) his wife as of the manor of Lageham, which was the right of inheritance of John, son and heir of John de St. John of Lageham.
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