Discussion:
The new Weyland-Breuse-Clare line
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Nancy
2021-06-26 18:34:46 UTC
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Tuesday, 19 March, 2002
Good morning Douglas, et al.,
Thanks for your post concerning Given-Wilson's account concerning
the de Weyland family and the manor of Middleton. It would appear,
however, that the author's identification of John de Weyland as the
eldest son is erroneous.
Sir Thomas de Weyland, one-time Lord Chief Justice of King's Bench
[1], held the manors of Brandeston, Westerfield, Middleton and
Blaxhall (and no doubt others) in Suffolk. His wife, Margaret de
Moese, had the manor of Campsey, Suffolk as either her maritagium or
(most likely) inheritance from her father [2]. In his account of the
In 1316 a fine was levied ... against Sir William de Weyland,
the eldest son of Sir Thomas de Weyland, of this manor, and
Westerfield, by which they passed to the said Robert [de Baldcock],
who regranted the same to Robert, son of the said Sir William de
Weyland, and Cecilia his (Robert's) wife, daughter of Thomas de
Baldcock, and the heirs of their bodies, being a marriage
arrangement...[3]
The settlement of Middleton and other lands on John de Weyland as
part of the marriage arrangements with Mary de Breuse [daughter, not
heiress, of Sir Richard de Breuse and Alice le Rus] indicates this was
an important marriage, but not that of the heir of either party. That
John de Weyland was a younger son is also supported by the inclusion
of Campsey, inherited from his mother, in the subsequent holdings of
the descendants of John de Weyland [4].
By the way, I note that Mary de Breuse had the manor of Rouse Hall
in Suffolk as her maritagium [5]. The de Weyland manors of Blaxhall,
Middleton, Swilland, Campsey [from de Moese] and others, together with
the de Breuse manor of Rouse Hall, passed to Sir Richard de Weyland,
son of John de Weyland and Mary de Breuse, and thereafter (as
indicated in your post) via his daughter and heiress Cecily to de
Burghersh and (subsequently) le Despenser.
Good luck, and good hunting.
John
NOTES
[1] see Copinger, The Manors of Suffolk [7 vols.], under those
manors.
Vol. II, p. 369 [Westerfield]; Vol. IV, p. 222 [Brandeston]; & c.
[2] Copinger, Vol. IV, p. 230
[3] Copinger, Vol. IV, p. 222 [Brandeston], citing Feet of Fines, 9
Edw. II. 25
Robert de Weyland and Cecilia de Baldcock were the parents of
Catherine de Weyland, later wife of John de Botetourt of Mendlesham,
and thereby ancestors of the Knyvetts of Buckenham, among others.
[4] The manor of Campsey is shown by Copinger [under his account of
Campsey] as passing with Cecily de Weyland's marriage to the holdings
of Sir Bartholomew de Burghersh (d. 1369).
[5] Copinger [Rouse Hall], citing a fine levied of that manor in
1288.
Sometime ago, I posted a new descent from the Magna Carta baron,
Richard de Clare, for 25 colonial immigrants. The new line comes
through Richard de Clare's great-great-granddaughter, Mary de Breuse,
whose marriage to John de Weyland has been ignored in most sources.
Recently, I came across additional information on John de Weyland and
his wife, Mary de Breuse, in the book, An Illustrated History of Late
Medieval England, edited by Chris Given-Wilson (published 1996). On
"Some lifetime grants did not disinherit the future heir or heirs, but
merely advanced the time at which part, or less commonly all, of the
inheritance was transferred to them. Such anticipatory grants were
commonly made in order to allow the future heir to set up his own
household on marriage. In 1287, for example, Thomas Weyland gave his
eldest son John all his Irish lands plus his Suffolk manor of
Middleton, evidently in anticipatuion of his marriage to Mary, the
daughter of Richard and Alice de Braose. Richard and Alice shortly
thereafter made a matching grant of the Suffolk manor of Clopton to
the new couple."
In a footnote found on page 280, the author, Mr. Given-Wilson, cites
as his source the following documents: Public Record Office, C145/49,
no. 3, m. 30; CP 40/72, m. 14d; CP 25(1)/215/40, no. 7.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
- - - - - - - -
This is an all new Magna Carta descent which may interest many people
here on the medieval newsgroup. This line will be featured in the
forthcoming book, Magna Carta Ancestry.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
1. Richard de Clare, Earl of Hertford, Magna Carta Baron, married
Amice
of Gloucester, daughter of William Fitz Robert, 2nd Earl of
Gloucester.
2. Maud de Clare, married William de Breuse (died 1210), Baron of
Bramber, Sussex.
3. John de Breuse (died 1232), Baron of Bramber, Sussex, married
Margaret of North Wales, daughter of Llywelyn ap Iowerth, Prince of
North Wales.
4. Sir Richard de Breuse (died 1292), of Stinton in Salle, Norfolk,
married Alice le Rus.
5. Mary de Breuse, married in or before 1288 (date of fine) to John
de
Weyland (died 1312), of Blaxhall, Ashbocking, etc., Suffolk.
6. Sir Richard de Weyland (died 1319), of Blaxhall, Rouse Hall in
Clopton, Suffolk, married Joan _____.
7. Cecily de Weyland, daughter and sole heiress, married before 10
May
1335, Sir Bartholomew de Burghersh, 4th Lord Burghersh.
The following immigrants descend from Cecily (de Weyland) de
Burghersh
There were 2 Richard Weylands.
Thomas Weyland m. 1st Ann Colvill & had a son John d. 1312 who married Mary Braose. John's heir was his son Richard b. 1290. He was 22 at his dad's inquisition
Thomas Weyland m. 2nd Margery Moese & had a son Richard. On Richard's inquisition in 1319 he holds only the Manor of Onhus/Onehouse & he was m. to Joan Ufford and had a daughter Cecily later married to Bartholomew Burghersh.
https://archive.org/details/cu31924099427845/page/n173/mode/2up
AND
https://books.google.com/books?id=GwtKAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=margery+de+moese&source=bl&ots=jKl5kOpq5F&sig=ACfU3U0rL4uBMSjY909L1-5wBcs5D6NTEA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwia772u8rTsAhX5lXIEHRpfD5E4FBDoATAJegQIAhAC#v=onepage&q=margery%20de%20moese&f=false
Clearly this proves that there were 2 Richards. One the son of Thomas Weyland & Margery Moese m. to Joan & Richard son of John Weyland.
Douglas Richardson
2021-07-01 00:39:26 UTC
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Post by Nancy
There were 2 Richard Weylands.
Dear Nancy ~

There were two Richard de Weyland's, uncle and nephew, as you say. One was the brother of Sir John de Weyland [died 1312] and one was his son.
Unfortunately you have confused the two men. The heir of Sir John de Weyland [died 1312] was clearly his son, Sir Richard de Weyland, born about 1290, as proven by Sir John's surviving inquisition post mortem. Strangely enough, Mr. Copinger, who is certainly a competent historian, made the same error of confusing the two Richard de Weyland's.

I've copied below my current file account of Sir John de Weyland [died 1312] and his son, Sir Richard de Weyland [died 1320].

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the New World immigrants who descend from these two men:

Robert Abell, William Asfordby, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Edward Bromfield, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, St. Leger Codd, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, William Farrer, John Fisher, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Warham Horsmanden, Matthew Kempe, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Anne, Elizabeth, & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, John and Margaret Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Katherine Saint Leger, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, Amy Wyllys.

Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist

+ + + + + + + + +

1. MARY DE BREWES, married about 28 March 1288 (date of fine) JOHN DE WEYLAND (or WEYLAUNDE), Knt., of Ash, Blaxhall/Blaxall, Bromton (in Witnesham), Clopton, Cockfield (in Witnesham), Middleton, Onehouse, Swilland, Wantisden, Whelnetham, and Wytlisham, Suffolk, and Ballygunner and Killoteran, co. Waterford, Ireland, son and heir of Thomas de Weyland, Knt., Chief Justice of the King’s Bench, of Ash Bocking, Blaxhall/Blaxall, Clopton, Monewden, Onehouse, Swilland, and Whelnetham, Suffolk, Chipping Sodbury, Gloucestershire, etc., by his 1st wife, Anne, daughter of Richard de Colville. Her maritagium included the manor of Clopton, Suffolk. They had one son, Richard, Knt. In 1290 he recovered the manor of Blaxhall, Suffolk, together with lands in Tunstall and Glemham, Suffolk, which property had previously escheated to the king and Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk on the felony of his father, Thomas de Weyland. The same year he claimed to have been jointly enfeoffed with his father in two-thirds of the manor of Little Whelnetham, Suffolk in King’s Bench under a settlement of 1282. In 1291 he sued Geoffrey de Munbray in the Court of Common Pleas in a Suffolk plea regarding land. In 1293 John de Weyland gave 20s. to have license of concord with Philip Harneys and Alice his wife and John their son in Suffolk. In 1296 and 1297 Maud widow of Robert de Whelnetham sued him in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a moiety of one messuage and lands in Little Whelnetham, Suffolk, which she claimed as her dower. In 1303 he was granted a weekly market and yearly fair at his manor of Clopton, Suffolk and free warren in his demesne lands in Ballygunner and Killoteran, co. Waterford, Ireland. In 1304 he was granted free warren in his demesne lands in Witnesham and Blaxhall, Suffolk. In 1305 Robert de Bosco, of Fresefeld, Suffolk, acknowledged that he owed John de Weylond a debt of 20 marks. In 1306 Hubert de Bavent and Dionis [Denise] his wife sued him in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 16 marks. The same year Katherine, widow of Robert Lucas, of Otley, Suffolk, sued John son of Thomas de Weylande in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a moiety of one mill in Swilland, Suffolk, which the said Katherine claimed as her dower. In 1308 he sued James Loveday in the Court of Common Pleas for a reasonable account for the time he was receiver of money for the said John. The same year he sued Philip Seward in the Court of Common Pleas for a reasonable account during the time he was his bailiff in Clopton, Suffolk. In 1309 Henry de Stonham and Sarah his wife granted John and Mary his wife one messuage and 26 acres of land in Little Whelnetham and Rushbrooke, Suffolk. SIR JOHN DE WEYLAND died shortly before 30 October 1312.

References:

Blomefield, Essay towards a Top. Hist. of Norfolk 8 (1808): 266–269. Nicolas, Roll of Arms of the Reign of Edward the Second (1829): 124 (arms of Sir John de Weylande: Azure, a lion rampant, argent; a baton, gules). Cal. Docs. Rel. Ireland 5 (1886): 92. Rye, Cal. Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 90, 91, 92, 115, 117. C.C.R. 1288–1296 (1904): 92, 147. Copinger, County of Suffolk 1 (1904): 206. C.Ch.R. 3 (1908): 43. C.C.R. 1302–1307 (1908): 332. Cal. I.P.M. 5 (1908): 214, 242. Copinger, Manors of Suffolk 3 (1909): 32–33, 120–121. Chancery Miscellanea Part VI (List & Index Soc. 81) (1972): 200 (“Fine, 16 Edward I [1287–8]. – Manor of Clopton [Suffolk]; John de Weylaund and Mary his wife, complainants, and Richard de Breuse and Alice his wife, deforciants; conveyance to the former in frank-marriage, with remainder to the latter.”). Given-Wilson Illus. Hist. of Late Medieval England (1996): 78 (“Some lifetime grants did not disinherit the future heir or heirs, but merely advanced the time at which part, or less commonly all, of the inheritance was transferred to them. Such anticipatory grants were commonly made in order to allow the future heir to set up his own household on marriage. In 1287, for example, Thomas Weyland gave his eldest son John all his Irish lands plus his Suffolk manor of Middleton, evidently in anticipation of his marriage to Mary, the daughter of Richard and Alice de Braose. Richard and Alice shortly thereafter made a matching grant of the Suffolk manor of Clopton to the new couple.”), 280 (author cites as his sources: National Archives, C145/49, no. 3, m. 30; CP 40/72, m. 14d; CP 25(1)/215/40, no. 7). Gransden, Hist. of the Abbey of Bury St Edmunds, 1257–1301 (2015): 91–92. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/72, image 8005d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no72/bCP40no72dorses/IMG_8005.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/91, image 798d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no91/bCP40no91dorses/IMG_0798.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/101, image 34f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no101/aCP40no101fronts/IMG_0034.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/115, image 139f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no115/aCP40no115fronts/IMG_0139.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/116, image 89f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no116/aCP40no116fronts/IMG_0089.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/159, image 72f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no159/aCP40no159fronts/IMG_0072.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/159, image 635d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no159/CP40no159dorses/IMG_0635.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/169, image 5f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/E2/CP40no169/aCP40no169fronts/IMG_0005.htm). National Archives, SC 8/147/7318; SC 8/151/7536 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.ukwww.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp). National Archives, Feet of Fines dated 1288 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_215_32-40/CP25no1no215no40/IMG_0775.htm). National Archives, Feet of Fines dated 1309 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_217_50/IMG_1283.htm).

2. RICHARD DE WEYLAND (or WEYLAUND), Knt., of Blaxhall, Cockfield (in Witnesham), Le Fenhale (in Onehouse), Middleton, and Wantisden, Suffolk, son and heir, born about 1290 (aged 22 in 1312). He married JOAN DE UFFORD, daughter of Robert de Ufford, Knt., 1st Lord Ufford, by Cecily, daughter and co-heiress of Robert de Valoines, of Ixworth and Walsham, Suffolk. They had one daughter, Cecily. As “Sir Richard de Weyland,” he witnessed a charter of his mother-in-law, Cecily de Ufford, widow, in 10 Edward II [1316–17]. In 1317 he nominated Thomas de Westhale his attorney in Ireland for two years. In 1318 he witnessed an exchange of land between his mother-in-law, Cecily de Ufford, and Ralph de Bockyngg of lands in Helmingham, Suffolk. In 1319 Robert de Saxmundeham, parson of the church of Blaxhall, Suffolk, complained that Richard de Weyland and others forcibly entered his dwelling place at Blaxhall, Suffolk, broke the doors of his house, and carried away his goods. SIR RICHARD DE WEYLAND died shortly before 7 March 1320, on which date the king ordered Edmund de Hakelut, escheator of Ireland, to take into the king’s hand the lands late of Richard de Weylaund, deceased, tenant in chief.. On the same date his widow, Joan, staying in England, had letters nominating Simon de Criketot her attorney in Ireland for two years. In 1320 Edmund de Bermingham, bachelor to the king, asked to be granted £20 worth of the lands of Richard de Weylonde in Ireland during the minority of the heir or to be granted a sum of money ... in consideration of his good service against the Scots and Irish. In Michaelmas term 1320 the Abbot of St. Edmunds sued Cecily, widow of Robert de Ufford, in the Court of Common Pleas that she render to him custody of her grand-daughter, Cecily, daughter and heiress of Richard de Weyland. On 16 Nov. 1320 the king granted William de Wellesleye, king’s yeoman, £20 a year out of the extent of the lands and tenements of Richard de Weyland, tenant in chief, in the county of Waterford, by reason of the minority of the heir. In 1327 and 1328 Cecily daughter of Richard de Weylaund sued Alexander de Saxmundham, parson of Chiselford, and Peter de Grimeston, chaplain, vouchees of Joan late the wife of Richard de Weylaund in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manor of Blaxhall, Suffolk. His widow, Joan, married (2nd) before Easter term 1327 (date of lawsuit) JOHN DE BAVENT, Knt., Knight of the Shire for Suffolk, 1336, and in right of his wife, of Blaxhall, Cockfield (in Witnesham), Le Fenhale (in Onehouse), Middleton, and Wantisden, Suffolk. In 1327 and 1328 he sued Robert le Palmere, of Kersey, Suffolk, and Thomas atte Watre in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a reasonable account of the time Robert was his bailiff in Onehouse, Suffolk and Thomas was his bailiff in Blaxhall, Wantisden, Middleton, Cockfield (in Witnesham), and Onehouse, Suffolk. In 1328 he sued the same parties in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a reasonable account of the time the said Robert was his bailiff in Onehouse, Suffolk and the said Thomas was his receiver of money. In 1330 John de Bavent and Joan his wife sued the Abbot of Saint Edmund’s, custodian of the lands and heir of Richard de Weyland, regarding a moiety of one messuage, lands, and rent in Onehouse, Finborough, and Blaxhall, Suffolk, and Denise widow of Roger de Colvill regarding one moiety of one messuage, lands, and rent and the advowson of the church of Little Whelnetham, Suffolk, which they claimed as the dower of the said Joan. On 27 June 1330 he and Sir Robert de Ufford witnessed a grant made at Woodstock by Hugh de Turpyton, Knt., to Robert Cokerel, of Ireland. In Michaelmas term 1330 he and Joan his wife sued William Sturmy, custodian of the land and heir of Richard de Weyland, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding half of one messuage and land in Ash, Norfolk, which the said Joan claimed as her dower. In 1332 he and Robert de Ufford, Knt., served as mainpernors for Robert de Vere who had been detained in the Tower of London. In 1333 William de Dunton, Knt., sued John de Bavent, Knt., in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 43s. SIR JOHN BAVENT was granted protection in 1337, he then going with Robert de Ufford, Earl of Suffolk, beyond seas on the king’s service. At her death, Lady Joan de Weyland, “sister of the Earl of Suffolk,” was buried at Grey Friars in Dunwich, Suffolk.

References:

Weever, Antient Funeral Monuments (1767): 460. Blomefield, Essay towards a Top. Hist. of Norfolk 4 (1775): 341; . Blomefield, Essay towards a Top. Hist. of Norfolk 8 (1808): 155–158. Taylor, Index Monasticus (1821): 103. Return of the name of every member of the lower house of parliament (1878): 112. C.P.R. 1334–1338 (1895): 527. C.C.R. 1330–1333 (1898): 150, 602. Rye, Cal. Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 128. C.P.R. 1317–1321 (1903): 33, 61, 343, 390, 429, 521. Index of Placita de Banco 1327–1328 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 22) (1906): 641. Copinger Manors of Suffolk 2 (1908): 124; . Copinger, Manors of Suffolk 3 (1909): 32–33 & 120–121 (author erroneously identifies Richard de Weyland as brother [not son ] of John de Weyland [died 1312]). Index of Placita de Banco 1327–1328 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 32) (1910): 601, 641. C.F.R. 3 (1912): 18. Annalecta Hibernica 34 (1987): 28. Gorski, Fourteenth-Cent. Sheriff (2003): 22–23, 26. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/236, image 105f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E2/CP40no236/aCP40no236fronts/IMG_0105.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/268, image 3f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E3/CP40no268/aCP40no268fronts/IMG_0003.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/269, image 89f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E3/CP40no269/aCP40no269fronts/IMG_0089.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/272, image 88f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E3/CP40no272/aCP40no272fronts/IMG_0004.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/273, image 77d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E3/CP40no273/bCP40no273dorses/IMG_0077.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/274, image 88f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E3/CP40no274/aCP40no274fronts/IMG_0088.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/275, image 176f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E3/CP40no275/aCP40no275fronts/IMG_0176.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/275, image 557f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E3/CP40no275/aCP40no275fronts/IMG_0557.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/282, image 122f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no282/aCP40no282fronts/IMG_0122.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/283, image 372f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E3/CP40no283/aCP40no283fronts/IMG_0372.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/293, image 652f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no293/aCP40no293fronts/IMG_0652.htm). National Archives, SC 8/82/4055 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.ukwww.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp). Suffolk Rec. Office, Ipswich Branch: Iveagh (Phillipps) Suffolk MSS, HD 1538/253/5 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). Credit goes to John P. Ravilious for his discovery of the parentage of Joan de Ufford, wife of Sir Richard de Weyland.

Child of Richard de Weyland, Knt., by Joan de Ufford:

1) CECILY DE WEYLAND, married BARTHOLOMEW DE BURGHERSH, K.G., 4th Lord Burghersh [see BURGHERSH 13].
Peter Howarth
2021-07-01 10:50:25 UTC
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Sir Richard de Weyland of Blaxhall (d.1319) had an interesting coat of arms.
His grandfather, Thomas de Weyland (d.1298), a successful lawyer, bore 'azure, a lion rampant argent, over all a bend gules'.[1] The bend may have been a difference for being the third son, but we have no evidence for his father Herbert's arms.
Richard's father, John (d.1312), had the same arms as Thomas.[2] But Richard, during his father's lifetime, did not add a label as many heirs apparent did, but instead changed the tincture of the bend to gold.[3] We have no evidence for whether he changed the tincture of the bend back again after his father's death, perhaps because he survived his father by only seven years.
There are quite a few other examples of heirs apparent in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries who did not add a label to their father's arms, but chose a different method instead.

Peter Howarth

[1] Charles’s Roll (c.1285) FII 15
[2] Stirling Roll (1304) ST 55, First Dunstable Roll (1309) L 119, Parliamentary Roll (c.1312) N 506
[3] Parliamentary Roll (c.1312) N 507

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