Discussion:
The English (Kent) family of Horne
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Hans Vogels
2020-05-26 06:38:06 UTC
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My attention has been brought to a curious similarity between a well-known Dutch noble family Van Horne, lords of Horne, who became lords of Altena, Weert, Eindhoven and the Belgian Kortessem, and the English noble family (de) Horne. Both families used a post horn in their family heraldics. The Dutch family had three red horns on a golden field. As far as I can tell the English family use one black horn on a silver field.

https://www.heraldry-wiki.com/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=Horn_(Limburg)

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=rm&ogbl#inbox/FMfcgxwHNWDqcrLFvPcJkmPbdcVPzWQc


Does anyone know something about the (origin off) a Ralph de Horne (of Kenardington)? I was wondering if there was a connection or if this was just a coincidence?

Ralph the Horne was one of the justices of great the assize during the period of King John (†1216). A Roger de Horne is mentioned in 1260 as steward of the Earl of Gloucester for the Lowy of Tunbridge. Ralphs son Matthew Horne gets mentioned in 1276. His descendants flourished until the 16th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horne%27s_Place_Chapel

https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/hornes-place-chapel/history/

https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/Vol.014%20-%201882/014-30.pdf

With regards,
Hans Vogels
Hans Vogels
2020-05-26 06:48:33 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
My attention has been brought to a curious similarity between a well-known Dutch noble family Van Horne, lords of Horne, who became lords of Altena, Weert, Eindhoven and the Belgian Kortessem, and the English noble family (de) Horne. Both families used a post horn in their family heraldics. The Dutch family had three red horns on a golden field. As far as I can tell the English family use one black horn on a silver field.
https://www.heraldry-wiki.com/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=Horn_(Limburg)
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=rm&ogbl#inbox/FMfcgxwHNWDqcrLFvPcJkmPbdcVPzWQc
Does anyone know something about the (origin off) a Ralph de Horne (of Kenardington)? I was wondering if there was a connection or if this was just a coincidence?
Ralph the Horne was one of the justices of great the assize during the period of King John (†1216). A Roger de Horne is mentioned in 1260 as steward of the Earl of Gloucester for the Lowy of Tunbridge. Ralphs son Matthew Horne gets mentioned in 1276. His descendants flourished until the 16th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horne%27s_Place_Chapel
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/hornes-place-chapel/history/
https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/Vol.014%20-%201882/014-30.pdf
With regards,
Hans Vogels
Papers on the Dutch family can be downloaded from:
http://www.showeert.nl/P032_de_hornes_als_graven_van_.html

Taede Klaversma, 'De geslachten van Altena en Horne tot ca.1300'.
In: Publications de la Société Historique et Archéologique dans le Limbourg 114 (1978) 7 - 61.
Inhoud: Beschrijft de herkomst van heren van Altena, vervolgd met een uiteenzetting over deze heren in de 12de eeuw. Uitvoerig komt de kinderloze Dirk III (heer van 1200 - 1242), zijn vrouwen en zijn zusters aan de orde. Het door Dirk III gestichtte klooster Keizerbosch in Neer wordt niet vergeten. Eveneens worden de oudste Hornes uit de 12e en begin 13e eeuw behandeld. Het exposé wordt afgesloten met de heren van Horne en Altena in de 13e eeuw, met name Willem I en Willem II.

Taede Klaversma, 'De Hornes 1296 - 1345'.
In: Publications de la Société Historique et Archéologique dans le Limbourg 121 (1985) 7 - 68.
Inhoud: Betreft de biografieën van Willem III en familie, Gerard I (1296 - 1330), verder die van Willem IV en Gerard II (1330 - 1345) en ten slotte die van de kinderen van Gerard I, heer van Horn, Altena, Herlaer en Perwijs

T(aede) Klaversma, 'De heren van Horne, Altena en Kortessem (1345 -1433)'.
In: Weert in woord en beeld : jaarboek voor Weert 4 (1989) 51-63, 5 (1990-'91) 25-53 en
6 (1992) 122-138.
Inhoud: Betreft de biografieën van Willem V (1345 -1357), Dirk Loef (1357-1369), Willem VI en Willem VII (1369 -1433). Zij waren tevens heren van Weert en Wessem. Weert bestond uit Over- en Nederweert.

Hans Vogels
Peter Howarth
2020-05-26 08:02:42 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
My attention has been brought to a curious similarity between a well-known Dutch noble family Van Horne, lords of Horne, who became lords of Altena, Weert, Eindhoven and the Belgian Kortessem, and the English noble family (de) Horne. Both families used a post horn in their family heraldics. The Dutch family had three red horns on a golden field. As far as I can tell the English family use one black horn on a silver field.
https://www.heraldry-wiki.com/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=Horn_(Limburg)
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=rm&ogbl#inbox/FMfcgxwHNWDqcrLFvPcJkmPbdcVPzWQc
Does anyone know something about the (origin off) a Ralph de Horne (of Kenardington)? I was wondering if there was a connection or if this was just a coincidence?
Ralph the Horne was one of the justices of great the assize during the period of King John (†1216). A Roger de Horne is mentioned in 1260 as steward of the Earl of Gloucester for the Lowy of Tunbridge. Ralphs son Matthew Horne gets mentioned in 1276. His descendants flourished until the 16th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horne%27s_Place_Chapel
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/hornes-place-chapel/history/
https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/Vol.014%20-%201882/014-30.pdf
With regards,
Hans Vogels
I really don't feel you can lay any great store by the similarity of these coats of arms. They could very easily have arisen independently, as canting arms (i.e. a pun on the name). According to the Dictionary of British Arms, horns (or 'bugle horns') appear, in various combinations, in the arms of Horn(e) of Essex, Horn(e) of Kent, Hoorn, Thomenhorn, Woodhorne. They also appear in several different arms of Forrest, Forrester, Forster, Hunt, Huntetwyote, as well as many other families whose names have no connection with a horn. A hart's horn or antler forms the arms of Hartshorne. I'm sorry, but I am convinced that the Dutch and English families arrived at their arms independently.

Peter Howarth
Hans Vogels
2020-05-26 09:45:02 UTC
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Post by Peter Howarth
Post by Hans Vogels
My attention has been brought to a curious similarity between a well-known Dutch noble family Van Horne, lords of Horne, who became lords of Altena, Weert, Eindhoven and the Belgian Kortessem, and the English noble family (de) Horne. Both families used a post horn in their family heraldics. The Dutch family had three red horns on a golden field. As far as I can tell the English family use one black horn on a silver field.
https://www.heraldry-wiki.com/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=Horn_(Limburg)
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=rm&ogbl#inbox/FMfcgxwHNWDqcrLFvPcJkmPbdcVPzWQc
Does anyone know something about the (origin off) a Ralph de Horne (of Kenardington)? I was wondering if there was a connection or if this was just a coincidence?
Ralph the Horne was one of the justices of great the assize during the period of King John (†1216). A Roger de Horne is mentioned in 1260 as steward of the Earl of Gloucester for the Lowy of Tunbridge. Ralphs son Matthew Horne gets mentioned in 1276. His descendants flourished until the 16th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horne%27s_Place_Chapel
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/hornes-place-chapel/history/
https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/Vol.014%20-%201882/014-30.pdf
With regards,
Hans Vogels
I really don't feel you can lay any great store by the similarity of these coats of arms. They could very easily have arisen independently, as canting arms (i.e. a pun on the name). According to the Dictionary of British Arms, horns (or 'bugle horns') appear, in various combinations, in the arms of Horn(e) of Essex, Horn(e) of Kent, Hoorn, Thomenhorn, Woodhorne. They also appear in several different arms of Forrest, Forrester, Forster, Hunt, Huntetwyote, as well as many other families whose names have no connection with a horn. A hart's horn or antler forms the arms of Hartshorne. I'm sorry, but I am convinced that the Dutch and English families arrived at their arms independently.
Peter Howarth
No need to be sorry. I was aware of the distance between England and the Low Countries.

There was a small possibility that a Van Horne ended up in England as a result of the Dutch/Belgian succession war of the county of Holland around 1206/1210. The widow of the count of Holland provoked civil unrest in hushedly marrying her daughter and heiress to the count of Loon. In the following strife this daughter sought refuge in England and King John demanded hostages of the count of Loon. Several sons of prominent nobles of the county of Loon spent years in 'hostage/prison' in England. The lord of Horne was a vassal of the count of Loon.

Therefore my inquiry after extra knowledge about this Ralph de Horne.

Hans Vogels
Vance Mead
2020-05-26 11:36:33 UTC
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Even farther afield, there was a Horn family in Finland, of Swedish origin. They used a horn on their Coat of Arms. Not far from where I am now, just across the lake, are the ruins of a manor house, built in the 16th century, that had belonged to them.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_family

Sorry, only in Finnish:
https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haapaniemen_linna
Hans Vogels
2020-05-26 12:46:50 UTC
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Post by Peter Howarth
Post by Hans Vogels
My attention has been brought to a curious similarity between a well-known Dutch noble family Van Horne, lords of Horne, who became lords of Altena, Weert, Eindhoven and the Belgian Kortessem, and the English noble family (de) Horne. Both families used a post horn in their family heraldics. The Dutch family had three red horns on a golden field. As far as I can tell the English family use one black horn on a silver field.
https://www.heraldry-wiki.com/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=Horn_(Limburg)
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=rm&ogbl#inbox/FMfcgxwHNWDqcrLFvPcJkmPbdcVPzWQc
Does anyone know something about the (origin off) a Ralph de Horne (of Kenardington)? I was wondering if there was a connection or if this was just a coincidence?
Ralph the Horne was one of the justices of great the assize during the period of King John (†1216). A Roger de Horne is mentioned in 1260 as steward of the Earl of Gloucester for the Lowy of Tunbridge. Ralphs son Matthew Horne gets mentioned in 1276. His descendants flourished until the 16th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horne%27s_Place_Chapel
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/hornes-place-chapel/history/
https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/Vol.014%20-%201882/014-30.pdf
With regards,
Hans Vogels
I really don't feel you can lay any great store by the similarity of these coats of arms. They could very easily have arisen independently, as canting arms (i.e. a pun on the name). According to the Dictionary of British Arms, horns (or 'bugle horns') appear, in various combinations, in the arms of Horn(e) of Essex, Horn(e) of Kent, Hoorn, Thomenhorn, Woodhorne. They also appear in several different arms of Forrest, Forrester, Forster, Hunt, Huntetwyote, as well as many other families whose names have no connection with a horn. A hart's horn or antler forms the arms of Hartshorne. I'm sorry, but I am convinced that the Dutch and English families arrived at their arms independently.
Peter Howarth
Hello Peter,

Something different. Is it a Heraldic myth that persons who assumed for themselves a coat of arms that belonged to a well-known family (or something that looked like it) without permission were sued or otherwise tackled?

Hans Vogels
Vance Mead
2020-05-26 12:55:56 UTC
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In England they could be sued in the Court of Chivalry.

https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/resources/court-of-chivalry
Hans Vogels
2020-05-26 13:34:05 UTC
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Post by Vance Mead
In England they could be sued in the Court of Chivalry.
https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/resources/court-of-chivalry
If this Court came into existence in 1593 it is far too young for my field of interest, being the period before 1400. The time that civilians started assuming coats of arms and that the nobility might take offense to someone's impertinence.

Hans Vogels
Peter Howarth
2020-05-26 15:22:30 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Post by Vance Mead
In England they could be sued in the Court of Chivalry.
https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/resources/court-of-chivalry
If this Court came into existence in 1593 it is far too young for my field of interest, being the period before 1400. The time that civilians started assuming coats of arms and that the nobility might take offense to someone's impertinence.
Hans Vogels
I agree entirely with only being interested in the period before 1400. For me, heraldry went steadily downhill after that.

The Court of Chivalry may have a formal start date in the sixteenth century, but there were mechanisms for dealing with the duplication of arms well before that. Since the discovery of such duplication was most likely to arise when the two armigers both arrived at the same muster, it was treated as a military matter and thus fell under the jurisdiction of the Constable. Maurice Keen gives the earliest example of the Constable's jurisdiction as 1294-5 (not about coats of arms).[1] The earliest example I have found of a dispute over the same arms is in the Caerlaverock Poem (1300), where Brian FitzAlan (K 55) and Hugh Poyntz (K 29) both bore 'barry or and gules'. As well as the well-known Scrope v. Grosvenor case, there were also those of Lovell v. Morley (1385/91) and Grey v. Hastings (temp Henry IV). There must have been several others, but the records have been lost. The thing I find interesting about the recorded cases is that all the witnesses were knights, with not a single herald in sight.

Peter Howarth

[1] 'The Jurisdiction and Origins of the Constable's Court', originally in /War and Government in the Middle Ages/, ed. J.B. Gillingham and J.C, Holt (Woodbridge, 1984) and reprinted in Keen's /Nobles, Knights and Men-at-Arms in the Middle Ages/, (London, 1996) p 142.
Ian Goddard
2020-05-26 13:18:16 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Something different. Is it a Heraldic myth that persons who assumed for themselves a coat of arms that belonged to a well-known family (or something that looked like it) without permission were sued or otherwise tackled?
See Scrope vs Grosvenor
Hans Vogels
2020-05-26 13:31:30 UTC
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Post by Ian Goddard
Post by Hans Vogels
Something different. Is it a Heraldic myth that persons who assumed for themselves a coat of arms that belonged to a well-known family (or something that looked like it) without permission were sued or otherwise tackled?
See Scrope vs Grosvenor
Nice story. Especially the argument that one of the concerned parties used (Arthurian times). The first cases of conflict arose thus in the 14th century. The parties concerned however were all 'equal'.

I have not heard of cases in the Low Countries if they ever existed. To many infighting counties/earl/dukedoms with no centralized government.

Hans Vogels
Ian Goddard
2020-05-26 18:59:50 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Post by Ian Goddard
Post by Hans Vogels
Something different. Is it a Heraldic myth that persons who assumed for themselves a coat of arms that belonged to a well-known family (or something that looked like it) without permission were sued or otherwise tackled?
See Scrope vs Grosvenor
Nice story. Especially the argument that one of the concerned parties used (Arthurian times). The first cases of conflict arose thus in the 14th century. The parties concerned however were all 'equal'.
I have not heard of cases in the Low Countries if they ever existed. To many infighting counties/earl/dukedoms with no centralized government.
One of the by-products of the case is the evidence edited (I think) by
Clay. I thought I had a PDF copy of it but don't seem to be able to
find it. :(
Ian Goddard
2020-05-26 19:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Not Clay. https://archive.org/details/decontroversiai00scrogoog

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