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More on the Duchess of Cornwall's ancestor, Dr. Matthew Combe of Winchester
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ravinma...@yahoo.com
2021-05-28 19:09:44 UTC
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WARGS's collection of info on the ancestry of Camilla gives:

450 Sir John Miller, 4th Baronet, d. 19 Apr 1772 [CB IV:194; Ruvigny Clarence 506]
m. St. Thomas's, Winchester, 31 May 1733
451 Susan Combe, d. 26 June 1788

and

902 Matthew Combe, M.D., of Winchester
m. Droxford, Hampshire, 3 Dec. 1713 [IGI]
903 Susannah ("Hannah") Oglander, b. 1678

http://www.wargs.com/royal/camilla.html

John Vaughan, _Winchester Cathedral: Its Monuments and Memorials_ (London: Selwyn and Blount, 1919), pp. 109-10, provides background on Dr. Matthew Combe of Winchester:

"Several memorials to members of the medical profession may be seen in the north aisle of the nave. Towards the eastern end, I fixed against the wall, is the elaborate marble monument of Matthew Combe , M. D., who died in 1748. It is pyramidal in form, and consists of a funeral urn adorned with flowers, standing on a sarcophagus. Above the urn, which resembles an elegant vase rather than a cinerary vessel, is depicted the Combe coat-of-arms – ermine three lions passant gules – impaling those of the Oglander family – az. a stork between three cross crosslets fitchee or – Matthew Combe having married as his second wife, Hannah, daughter of Sir John Oglander, of Brading, in the Isle of Wight. Matthew Combe was the son of John Combe, of Tisbury, in the county of Wilts, gentleman and was educated at Magdalen Hall, Oxford, where he took his M.D. degree. For the long period of fifty-four years ‘he exercised his art with a singular happiness in the City of Winchester,’ dying at length at the age of eighty-six years. In his earlier career he had the misfortune to lose within a few months of each other his first wife Christiana, and his daughter Finetta, aged sixteen. They lie immediately below the Combe monument, under black stones, with Latin epitaphs of a specially touching character. Mrs. Hannah Combe survived her husband ten years, dying in 1758, at the house now known as Chernocke House, in St. Thomas Street, and was buried in the Cathedral.”

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc2.ark:/13960/t3bz64p46&view=1up&seq=129&q1=finetta

Since the Combe-Oglander marriage occurred in 1713, and the Combe-Miller marriage in 1733, less than twenty years later, is it possible that Susanna Combe was a daughter of this first wife, Christian, rather than of the second wife, Hannah?
Brad Verity
2021-05-28 20:12:06 UTC
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Post by ***@yahoo.com
Since the Combe-Oglander marriage occurred in 1713, and the Combe-Miller marriage in 1733, less than twenty years later, is it possible that Susanna Combe was a daughter of this first wife, Christian, rather than of the second wife, Hannah?
Dr. Matthew Combe married Susanna Oglander 3 December 1713 All Saints Church, Droxford, Hampshire.

Susanna Combe was baptized 12 August 1717 St Thomas Church, Winchester [IGI Batch No.: K136751]. She married Sir John Miller, 4th Baronet of Chichester 31 May 1733 St Thomas Church, Winchester, when she was just approaching, or had just turned (if she was born a few months before her baptism), age sixteen.

So young, but not prohibitively so.

Cheers, ------Brad
Will Johnson
2021-05-28 22:25:50 UTC
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In addition, Susan was yet having children in 1750 (Charles Miller to be specific)
It's a bigger stretch to think that she could have been over 48 at that time
Will Johnson
2021-05-28 22:42:16 UTC
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Susan Oglander's father John was the 2nd Bnt
The Oglander line descends from Edward I
However John's grandmother Frances Moore Oglander also descends from Henry III
Will Johnson
2021-05-28 23:00:52 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
Susan Oglander's father John was the 2nd Bnt
The Oglander line descends from Edward I
However John's grandmother Frances Moore Oglander also descends from Henry III
John's mother Dorothy Clarke has little information here

https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00399602&tree=LEO

however we *do* know that Griseld Woodruffe was bap 1 Aug 1596 Seale, co Surrey (Batch P013321 wj)
She married Sir Francis Clarke and he died in March 1631
One of their children (first?) was another Griseld but Clarke bap 11 Feb 1618 Seale, Surrey (Batch P01332-1 wj)

So we do have a constraint on when this latter Dorothy Clarke was born. 1611/1631 I would say

Through the Clarke's, your target person has yet another H3 descent
And through the Woodruffe's a more interesting (to me) descent from Jean de Brienne, King of Jerusalem 1210-1212 j.u., Regent 1212-25; Latin Emperor of /Constantinople/ 1231-1237
JBrand
2021-05-29 13:56:51 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
In addition, Susan was yet having children in 1750 (Charles Miller to be specific)
It's a bigger stretch to think that she could have been over 48 at that time
Thanks to Brad for finding the baptismal record from 1717.

To Will's point, not sure where the age 48 in 1750 would come from. Someone born "say a year" before Dr. Combe's remarriage date of 1713 would only be around 38 in 1750.
JBrand
2021-05-29 14:16:21 UTC
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Post by JBrand
Post by Will Johnson
In addition, Susan was yet having children in 1750 (Charles Miller to be specific)
It's a bigger stretch to think that she could have been over 48 at that time
Thanks to Brad for finding the baptismal record from 1717.
To Will's point, not sure where the age 48 in 1750 would come from. Someone born "say a year" before Dr. Combe's remarriage date of 1713 would only be around 38 in 1750.
The first wife Christiana died in 1712 aged 58, years, so I guess she wouldn't even have been able to have children just prior to her death:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Lives_of_the_Bishops_of_Winchester/5hlBAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=finetta+combe&pg=PA56&printsec=frontcover

Is that where you're getting the age 48 in 1750, Will?
Will Johnson
2021-05-31 20:01:23 UTC
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Post by JBrand
Post by JBrand
Post by Will Johnson
In addition, Susan was yet having children in 1750 (Charles Miller to be specific)
It's a bigger stretch to think that she could have been over 48 at that time
Thanks to Brad for finding the baptismal record from 1717.
To Will's point, not sure where the age 48 in 1750 would come from. Someone born "say a year" before Dr. Combe's remarriage date of 1713 would only be around 38 in 1750.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Lives_of_the_Bishops_of_Winchester/5hlBAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=finetta+combe&pg=PA56&printsec=frontcover
Is that where you're getting the age 48 in 1750, Will?
Sorry I goofed there
Susan's first child Mary was bap Apr 1735 so Susan was 17
and the last child Charles Jan 1750 so Susan was then 32
Leslie Mahler
2021-06-03 19:01:13 UTC
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450 Sir John Miller, 4th Baronet, d. 19 Apr 1772 [CB IV:194; Ruvigny Clarence 506]
m. St. Thomas's, Winchester, 31 May 1733
451 Susan Combe, d. 26 June 1788
and
902 Matthew Combe, M.D., of Winchester
m. Droxford, Hampshire, 3 Dec. 1713 [IGI]
903 Susannah ("Hannah") Oglander, b. 1678
http://www.wargs.com/royal/camilla.html
"Several memorials to members of the medical profession may be seen in the north aisle of the nave. Towards the eastern end, I fixed against the wall, is the elaborate marble monument of Matthew Combe , M. D., who died in 1748. It is pyramidal in form, and consists of a funeral urn adorned with flowers, standing on a sarcophagus. Above the urn, which resembles an elegant vase rather than a cinerary vessel, is depicted the Combe coat-of-arms – ermine three lions passant gules – impaling those of the Oglander family – az. a stork between three cross crosslets fitchee or – Matthew Combe having married as his second wife, Hannah, daughter of Sir John Oglander, of Brading, in the Isle of Wight. Matthew Combe was the son of John Combe, of Tisbury, in the county of Wilts, gentleman and was educated at Magdalen Hall, Oxford, where he took his M.D. degree. For the long period of fifty-four years ‘he exercised his art with a singular happiness in the City of Winchester,’ dying at length at the age of eighty-six years. In his earlier career he had the misfortune to lose within a few months of each other his first wife Christiana, and his daughter Finetta, aged sixteen. They lie immediately below the Combe monument, under black stones, with Latin epitaphs of a specially touching character. Mrs. Hannah Combe survived her husband ten years, dying in 1758, at the house now known as Chernocke House, in St. Thomas Street, and was buried in the Cathedral.”
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc2.ark:/13960/t3bz64p46&view=1up&seq=129&q1=finetta
Since the Combe-Oglander marriage occurred in 1713, and the Combe-Miller marriage in 1733, less than twenty years later, is it possible that Susanna Combe was a daughter of this first wife, Christian, rather than of the second wife, Hannah?
WARGS has Camilla's ancestors # 444 and 445 as William Morrice & Mary Chadwich,
but does not take the line any further back.
Genealogics has William Morrice's wife as Mary, daughter of Captain Robert Chadwick & Mary Rand.

https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00341101&tree=LEO

Mary Rand's mother was Ursula, who was married 1st to William Crayford, and
2nd to Nordash Rand:
https://archive.org/details/englandstopograp12irel/page/n637/mode/2up

Ursula was a daughter of Warham Horsmonden & Susanna Beeching, through
whom there are descents from Edward III. Warham & Susanna were ancestors
of the Byrd family of Virginia. The details were published in
Tylers Quarterly Historical and Genealogical Magazine:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogies_of_Virginia_Families/55I38FXWyPgC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=william%20crayford

Plantagenet Ancestry has Ursula's husband as "Nordest Rand":

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Plantagenet_Ancestry_A_Study_In_Colonial/kjme027UeagC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=susanna%20beeching

Leslie
Johnny Brananas
2021-06-04 14:50:13 UTC
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Post by Leslie Mahler
450 Sir John Miller, 4th Baronet, d. 19 Apr 1772 [CB IV:194; Ruvigny Clarence 506]
m. St. Thomas's, Winchester, 31 May 1733
451 Susan Combe, d. 26 June 1788
and
902 Matthew Combe, M.D., of Winchester
m. Droxford, Hampshire, 3 Dec. 1713 [IGI]
903 Susannah ("Hannah") Oglander, b. 1678
http://www.wargs.com/royal/camilla.html
"Several memorials to members of the medical profession may be seen in the north aisle of the nave. Towards the eastern end, I fixed against the wall, is the elaborate marble monument of Matthew Combe , M. D., who died in 1748. It is pyramidal in form, and consists of a funeral urn adorned with flowers, standing on a sarcophagus. Above the urn, which resembles an elegant vase rather than a cinerary vessel, is depicted the Combe coat-of-arms – ermine three lions passant gules – impaling those of the Oglander family – az. a stork between three cross crosslets fitchee or – Matthew Combe having married as his second wife, Hannah, daughter of Sir John Oglander, of Brading, in the Isle of Wight. Matthew Combe was the son of John Combe, of Tisbury, in the county of Wilts, gentleman and was educated at Magdalen Hall, Oxford, where he took his M.D. degree. For the long period of fifty-four years ‘he exercised his art with a singular happiness in the City of Winchester,’ dying at length at the age of eighty-six years. In his earlier career he had the misfortune to lose within a few months of each other his first wife Christiana, and his daughter Finetta, aged sixteen. They lie immediately below the Combe monument, under black stones, with Latin epitaphs of a specially touching character. Mrs. Hannah Combe survived her husband ten years, dying in 1758, at the house now known as Chernocke House, in St. Thomas Street, and was buried in the Cathedral.”
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc2.ark:/13960/t3bz64p46&view=1up&seq=129&q1=finetta
Since the Combe-Oglander marriage occurred in 1713, and the Combe-Miller marriage in 1733, less than twenty years later, is it possible that Susanna Combe was a daughter of this first wife, Christian, rather than of the second wife, Hannah?
WARGS has Camilla's ancestors # 444 and 445 as William Morrice & Mary Chadwich,
but does not take the line any further back.
Genealogics has William Morrice's wife as Mary, daughter of Captain Robert Chadwick & Mary Rand.
https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00341101&tree=LEO
Mary Rand's mother was Ursula, who was married 1st to William Crayford, and
https://archive.org/details/englandstopograp12irel/page/n637/mode/2up
Ursula was a daughter of Warham Horsmonden & Susanna Beeching, through
whom there are descents from Edward III. Warham & Susanna were ancestors
of the Byrd family of Virginia. The details were published in
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogies_of_Virginia_Families/55I38FXWyPgC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=william%20crayford
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Plantagenet_Ancestry_A_Study_In_Colonial/kjme027UeagC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=susanna%20beeching
Leslie
The name is spelled "Nordash Raud" here ...

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nnc2.ark:/13960/t58d0068b&view=1up&seq=467&q1=nordash
Johnny Brananas
2021-06-04 15:39:02 UTC
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Last name may have been "Ran" from time to time

Archdeaconry Court Miscellaneous
This record is held by Kent History and Library Centre

See contact details

Reference: DCb/PRC/18/35/27
Title: Archdeaconry Court Miscellaneous
Description:

PLAINTIFF: Urs CRAYFORD als RAN w[ife] o[f] Nordash RAN, gent; form rel Warham HORSMANDEN exors; DEFENDANT: Edw CRAYFORD, Rob CRAYFORD gent, ss; Geo CRAYFORD gent, now d, bro; Vinc, Wm & Thos CRAYFORD, nephs; DOCUMENT: All; CASE: Test (Wm CRAYFORD esq, Gt Mongeham)
Date: 20 Oct 1676
Held by: Kent History and Library Centre, not available at The National Archives
Language: English

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/f8236301-717d-44a3-8409-d601e4f090be
Will Johnson
2021-06-09 21:21:43 UTC
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Post by Johnny Brananas
Last name may have been "Ran" from time to time
Archdeaconry Court Miscellaneous
This record is held by Kent History and Library Centre
See contact details
Reference: DCb/PRC/18/35/27
Title: Archdeaconry Court Miscellaneous
PLAINTIFF: Urs CRAYFORD als RAN w[ife] o[f] Nordash RAN, gent; form rel Warham HORSMANDEN exors; DEFENDANT: Edw CRAYFORD, Rob CRAYFORD gent, ss; Geo CRAYFORD gent, now d, bro; Vinc, Wm & Thos CRAYFORD, nephs; DOCUMENT: All; CASE: Test (Wm CRAYFORD esq, Gt Mongeham)
Date: 20 Oct 1676
Held by: Kent History and Library Centre, not available at The National Archives
Language: English
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/f8236301-717d-44a3-8409-d601e4f090be
<unitdate datechar="creation" encodinganalog="3.1.3.2" label="Creation Dates" normal="1678/1678" type="inclusive">01 Jan 1678</unitdate>
<physdesc encodinganalog="3.4.4" label="Extent">
<extent>1 item</extent>
</physdesc>
<physdesc label="Calm Format">
<genreform>Manuscript</genreform>
</physdesc>
<repository encodinganalog="3.1.2">Flintshire Record Office</repository>
</did>
<scopecontent encodinganalog="3.3.1">
<p>
(i) Andrew Rand of Chillenden, gent., William Rand of Deal, Kent, gent., Nordash Rand of Great Mongeham, co. Kent, gent.
</p>
<p>
(ii) Warham Horsmonden of Great Mongeham, gent., Anthony Horsmonden of Maidstone, gent.
</p>
<p>
Marriage solemnised between Nordash Rand and Ursula Crayford, widow of William Crayford of Great Mongeham, esquire.
</p>
<p>
Covenant by (i) to stand seized of 3 messuages and appurtenances in Chillenden (130 acres), Knolton, Goodnestone, Nonington to use of Andrew Rand and his wife for term of their lifes afterwards to Nordash Rand and his wife and their heirs.
</p>
Will Johnson
2021-06-09 21:23:21 UTC
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Can we figure out who these other two are, genealogically. Brothers? Uncles?

Andrew Rand of Chillenden, gent., William Rand of Deal, Kent, gent., Nordash Rand of Great Mongeham, co. Kent, gent.
Will Johnson
2021-06-09 21:25:32 UTC
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Can we figure out who these other two are, genealogically. Brothers? Uncles?
Andrew Rand of Chillenden, gent., William Rand of Deal, Kent, gent., Nordash Rand of Great Mongeham, co. Kent, gent.
Ahhh. His manor was called StoneBALL not Stone Hall
And we see why he was living at Great Mongeham. It was the widows by will of the dead prior husband

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-kent/vol9/pp573-579
Will Johnson
2021-06-09 21:34:09 UTC
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Can we figure out who these other two are, genealogically. Brothers? Uncles?
Andrew Rand of Chillenden, gent., William Rand of Deal, Kent, gent., Nordash Rand of Great Mongeham, co. Kent, gent.
Ahhh. His manor was called StoneBALL not Stone Hall
And we see why he was living at Great Mongeham. It was the widows by will of the dead prior husband
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-kent/vol9/pp573-579
Here is a painting of Mary (Rand) Chadwick and some biography

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4203246
Will Johnson
2021-06-09 21:41:11 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
Can we figure out who these other two are, genealogically. Brothers? Uncles?
Andrew Rand of Chillenden, gent., William Rand of Deal, Kent, gent., Nordash Rand of Great Mongeham, co. Kent, gent.
Ahhh. His manor was called StoneBALL not Stone Hall
And we see why he was living at Great Mongeham. It was the widows by will of the dead prior husband
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-kent/vol9/pp573-579
Here is a painting of Mary (Rand) Chadwick and some biography
https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4203246
William Crayford was the patron at the church of Ripple
The next patron was Nordash Rand

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_and_Topographical_Survey_of/kaI0AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Nordash%20%2FRand%2F%20of%20Ripple%3B%20of%20Great%20Mongeham%2C%20co%20Kent&pg=PA136&printsec=frontcover&bsq=Nordash%20%2FRand%2F%20of%20Ripple%3B%20of%20Great%20Mongeham%2C%20co%20Kent
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