Discussion:
Possible Plantagenet Descent for Thomas Mapes of Long Island
(too old to reply)
Josiah de la Motte
2020-08-23 07:44:20 UTC
Permalink
I’d like to ask for any input anyone can give concerning a possible line to Edward III through Thomas Mapes of Southold, Surry, Long Island, NY.

The references are as follows:

Generations 1-8: Roberts page 385

Edward III = Phillipa of Hainault
Lionel Plantagenet = Elizabeth de Burgh
Phillipa Plantagenet = Edmund Mortimer
Elizabeth Mortimer =Sir Henry “Hotspur” Percy
Elizabeth Percy = John Clifford
Mary Clifford = Sir Philip Wentworth
Sir Henry Wentworth= Anne Saye
Elizabeth Wentworth = Roger Darcy

Generations 9 and 10: History of Parliament biographies of Sir Thomas Darcy and Richard Southwell by S. M. Thorpe and S. R. Johnson

http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/darcy-sir-thomas-1506-58

http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/southwell-richard-1531-1600#footnote1_jzgs5g1

Sir Thomas Darcy = ?
Mary Darcy= Sir Richard Southwell

Generation 11-13: Visitations of Norfolk, 1563 and 1613, published in 1891 by the Harleian Society; page 196

https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/196/mode/2up?q=Mapes

Richard Southwell (illegitimate)= ?
Catherine Southwell = Leonard Mapes
Francis Mapes = Anne Loveday

Francis is mentioned among the adventurers for Virginia in 1620. ‘The Travels of Captaine John Smith’, volume 1; page 263.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x000301612&view=1up&seq=313&q1=Mapes

The next generation is where the contention comes in. I have found no actual evidence yet that Francis Mapes of Rowlesby in Norfolk was the father of Thomas, the Long Island immigrant. If anyone can provide more information, I would be very grateful.


The book ‘New England Families’ claims that Francis returned to England, and was the father of Thomas.

https://books.google.com/books?id=KvUsAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA406&lpg=PA406&dq=Thomas+Loveday+Mapes+1628+1687&source=bl&ots=3GBxlUwI7y&sig=uMyanz-kLZwJuWN0-VGXPrCI3qI&hl=en&ei=Xy3UTuCdGce4tge00YWJAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CE4Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Thomas%20Loveday%20Mapes%201628%201687&f=false

I am still waiting on copies of a 1664 Norfolk visitation that may or may not prove the connection between Francis and Thomas. Given that the visitations in the last Norfolk visitation mentioned in generation #11 occurred in 1613, it is possible that Thomas, if he was Francis’ son, was not born yet. Someone on WikiTree says that Thomas does not appear in a visitation from 1680

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mapes-38#_note-stramara

Whatever the case, Thomas Mapes, who married Sarah Purrier, left a Will in Southold, Suffolk County, Long Island, NY, in 1686. The original does not survive in full, but the full version has been transcribed in several places (see volume 159 of NEHGR, April, 2005). Thomas named children Jonathan, Sarah, and William. Again, if anyone has any information to share concerning the possible connection between Francis and Thomas Mapes, I would be very interested.

Thanks,

Josiah de la Motte
JBrand
2020-08-23 16:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Josiah de la Motte
I’d like to ask for any input anyone can give concerning a possible line to Edward III through Thomas Mapes of Southold, Surry, Long Island, NY.
Generations 1-8: Roberts page 385
Edward III = Phillipa of Hainault
Lionel Plantagenet = Elizabeth de Burgh
Phillipa Plantagenet = Edmund Mortimer
Elizabeth Mortimer =Sir Henry “Hotspur” Percy
Elizabeth Percy = John Clifford
Mary Clifford = Sir Philip Wentworth
Sir Henry Wentworth= Anne Saye
Elizabeth Wentworth = Roger Darcy
Generations 9 and 10: History of Parliament biographies of Sir Thomas Darcy and Richard Southwell by S. M. Thorpe and S. R. Johnson
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/darcy-sir-thomas-1506-58
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/southwell-richard-1531-1600#footnote1_jzgs5g1
Sir Thomas Darcy = ?
Mary Darcy= Sir Richard Southwell
Generation 11-13: Visitations of Norfolk, 1563 and 1613, published in 1891 by the Harleian Society; page 196
https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/196/mode/2up?q=Mapes
Richard Southwell (illegitimate)= ?
Catherine Southwell = Leonard Mapes
Francis Mapes = Anne Loveday
Francis is mentioned among the adventurers for Virginia in 1620. ‘The Travels of Captaine John Smith’, volume 1; page 263.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x000301612&view=1up&seq=313&q1=Mapes
The next generation is where the contention comes in. I have found no actual evidence yet that Francis Mapes of Rowlesby in Norfolk was the father of Thomas, the Long Island immigrant. If anyone can provide more information, I would be very grateful.
The book ‘New England Families’ claims that Francis returned to England, and was the father of Thomas.
https://books.google.com/books?id=KvUsAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA406&lpg=PA406&dq=Thomas+Loveday+Mapes+1628+1687&source=bl&ots=3GBxlUwI7y&sig=uMyanz-kLZwJuWN0-VGXPrCI3qI&hl=en&ei=Xy3UTuCdGce4tge00YWJAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CE4Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Thomas%20Loveday%20Mapes%201628%201687&f=false
I am still waiting on copies of a 1664 Norfolk visitation that may or may not prove the connection between Francis and Thomas. Given that the visitations in the last Norfolk visitation mentioned in generation #11 occurred in 1613, it is possible that Thomas, if he was Francis’ son, was not born yet. Someone on WikiTree says that Thomas does not appear in a visitation from 1680
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mapes-38#_note-stramara
Whatever the case, Thomas Mapes, who married Sarah Purrier, left a Will in Southold, Suffolk County, Long Island, NY, in 1686. The original does not survive in full, but the full version has been transcribed in several places (see volume 159 of NEHGR, April, 2005). Thomas named children Jonathan, Sarah, and William. Again, if anyone has any information to share concerning the possible connection between Francis and Thomas Mapes, I would be very interested.
Thanks,
Josiah de la Motte
If Richard Southwell, son of Sir Richard Southwell, were illegitimate, he would not share in the Darcy descent, right?
Josiah de la Motte
2020-08-23 20:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Mary Darcy and the elder Sir Richard Southwell were not married. That is why Richard, father of Catherine Southwell according to the visitations, is marked as illegitimate.
Post by JBrand
Post by Josiah de la Motte
I’d like to ask for any input anyone can give concerning a possible line to Edward III through Thomas Mapes of Southold, Surry, Long Island, NY.
Generations 1-8: Roberts page 385
Edward III = Phillipa of Hainault
Lionel Plantagenet = Elizabeth de Burgh
Phillipa Plantagenet = Edmund Mortimer
Elizabeth Mortimer =Sir Henry “Hotspur” Percy
Elizabeth Percy = John Clifford
Mary Clifford = Sir Philip Wentworth
Sir Henry Wentworth= Anne Saye
Elizabeth Wentworth = Roger Darcy
Generations 9 and 10: History of Parliament biographies of Sir Thomas Darcy and Richard Southwell by S. M. Thorpe and S. R. Johnson
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/darcy-sir-thomas-1506-58
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/southwell-richard-1531-1600#footnote1_jzgs5g1
Sir Thomas Darcy = ?
Mary Darcy= Sir Richard Southwell
Generation 11-13: Visitations of Norfolk, 1563 and 1613, published in 1891 by the Harleian Society; page 196
https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/196/mode/2up?q=Mapes
Richard Southwell (illegitimate)= ?
Catherine Southwell = Leonard Mapes
Francis Mapes = Anne Loveday
Francis is mentioned among the adventurers for Virginia in 1620. ‘The Travels of Captaine John Smith’, volume 1; page 263.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x000301612&view=1up&seq=313&q1=Mapes
The next generation is where the contention comes in. I have found no actual evidence yet that Francis Mapes of Rowlesby in Norfolk was the father of Thomas, the Long Island immigrant. If anyone can provide more information, I would be very grateful.
The book ‘New England Families’ claims that Francis returned to England, and was the father of Thomas.
https://books.google.com/books?id=KvUsAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA406&lpg=PA406&dq=Thomas+Loveday+Mapes+1628+1687&source=bl&ots=3GBxlUwI7y&sig=uMyanz-kLZwJuWN0-VGXPrCI3qI&hl=en&ei=Xy3UTuCdGce4tge00YWJAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CE4Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Thomas%20Loveday%20Mapes%201628%201687&f=false
I am still waiting on copies of a 1664 Norfolk visitation that may or may not prove the connection between Francis and Thomas. Given that the visitations in the last Norfolk visitation mentioned in generation #11 occurred in 1613, it is possible that Thomas, if he was Francis’ son, was not born yet. Someone on WikiTree says that Thomas does not appear in a visitation from 1680
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mapes-38#_note-stramara
Whatever the case, Thomas Mapes, who married Sarah Purrier, left a Will in Southold, Suffolk County, Long Island, NY, in 1686. The original does not survive in full, but the full version has been transcribed in several places (see volume 159 of NEHGR, April, 2005). Thomas named children Jonathan, Sarah, and William. Again, if anyone has any information to share concerning the possible connection between Francis and Thomas Mapes, I would be very interested.
Thanks,
Josiah de la Motte
If Richard Southwell, son of Sir Richard Southwell, were illegitimate, he would not share in the Darcy descent, right?
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-08-23 21:56:46 UTC
Permalink
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Darcy-397#Was_Mary_the_Mother_of_Sir_Richard_Southwell_1531-1600.3F indicates chronological problems with making Mary Darcy the mother of Sir Richard Southwell, thought it says that the dates may be wrong.
Josiah de la Motte
2020-08-24 01:18:22 UTC
Permalink
Thanks so much for pointing that out! It seems his father was also married to Mary Darcy’s aunt (sister to Thomas Darcy), so the line would remain the same if he were the product of this marriage, which seems much more likely than his having been a son of Mary when she was only 4 years old.

http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/southwell-richard-15023-64
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Darcy-397#Was_Mary_the_Mother_of_Sir_Richard_Southwell_1531-1600.3F indicates chronological problems with making Mary Darcy the mother of Sir Richard Southwell, thought it says that the dates may be wrong.
wjhonson
2020-08-24 17:20:40 UTC
Permalink
Thomas Darcy the father of Mary Darcy Southwell, was the uncle of (not the same person as) Thomas Darcy 1st Baron of Chiche
Josiah de la Motte
2020-08-24 18:36:42 UTC
Permalink
Really? Thanks for looking into it! That solves the mystery and eliminates the line... Is there a source you found for the relationship?
Post by wjhonson
Thomas Darcy the father of Mary Darcy Southwell, was the uncle of (not the same person as) Thomas Darcy 1st Baron of Chiche
Josiah de la Motte
2020-08-24 18:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Just looking on Geni, it appears there are still two descents from Edward II, so I’ll work on documenting those.
Post by Josiah de la Motte
Really? Thanks for looking into it! That solves the mystery and eliminates the line... Is there a source you found for the relationship?
Post by wjhonson
Thomas Darcy the father of Mary Darcy Southwell, was the uncle of (not the same person as) Thomas Darcy 1st Baron of Chiche
John Higgins
2020-08-24 19:39:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by wjhonson
Thomas Darcy the father of Mary Darcy Southwell, was the uncle of (not the same person as) Thomas Darcy 1st Baron of Chiche
I agree with you that Mary Darcy Southwell was not the daughter of Thomas Darcy, 1st Baron Darcy of Chiche - and certainly not by his 1st wife Audrey Raynsford as Wikitree has it. But what evidence indicates that she was the daughter of his uncle Thomas - presumably the Sir Thomas Darcy who married Anne Gates? Or that Sir Thomas Darcy and Anne Gates had any children at all?

I see that this makes sense chronologically, but I'm not aware of any evidence supporting it.

BTW Genealogics makes her daughter of Thomas Darcy of Tolleshunt, based on Burke's Extinct Baronetcies, but this is clearly incorrect for chronological reasons.

Mary Darcy, whoever her parents may be, is ancestral to Princess Diana.
Johnny Brananas
2020-08-24 19:56:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by wjhonson
Thomas Darcy the father of Mary Darcy Southwell, was the uncle of (not the same person as) Thomas Darcy 1st Baron of Chiche
Is it right to call her Mary Darcy Southwell, since Josiah said, "Mary Darcy and the elder Sir Richard Southwell were not married" ...?
John Higgins
2020-08-24 21:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johnny Brananas
Post by wjhonson
Thomas Darcy the father of Mary Darcy Southwell, was the uncle of (not the same person as) Thomas Darcy 1st Baron of Chiche
Is it right to call her Mary Darcy Southwell, since Josiah said, "Mary Darcy and the elder Sir Richard Southwell were not married" ...?
Mary Darcy and the elder Sir Richard Southwell were in fact married - she was his 2nd wife. But their two sons, including the younger Richard, were born before their marriage. So, the name seems appropriate enough.
Mark Jennings
2020-08-24 21:11:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Josiah de la Motte
I’d like to ask for any input anyone can give concerning a possible line to Edward III through Thomas Mapes of Southold, Surry, Long Island, NY.
Generations 1-8: Roberts page 385
Edward III = Phillipa of Hainault
Lionel Plantagenet = Elizabeth de Burgh
Phillipa Plantagenet = Edmund Mortimer
Elizabeth Mortimer =Sir Henry “Hotspur” Percy
Elizabeth Percy = John Clifford
Mary Clifford = Sir Philip Wentworth
Sir Henry Wentworth= Anne Saye
Elizabeth Wentworth = Roger Darcy
Generations 9 and 10: History of Parliament biographies of Sir Thomas Darcy and Richard Southwell by S. M. Thorpe and S. R. Johnson
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/darcy-sir-thomas-1506-58
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/southwell-richard-1531-1600#footnote1_jzgs5g1
Sir Thomas Darcy = ?
Mary Darcy= Sir Richard Southwell
Generation 11-13: Visitations of Norfolk, 1563 and 1613, published in 1891 by the Harleian Society; page 196
https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/196/mode/2up?q=Mapes
Richard Southwell (illegitimate)= ?
Catherine Southwell = Leonard Mapes
Francis Mapes = Anne Loveday
Francis is mentioned among the adventurers for Virginia in 1620. ‘The Travels of Captaine John Smith’, volume 1; page 263.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x000301612&view=1up&seq=313&q1=Mapes
The next generation is where the contention comes in. I have found no actual evidence yet that Francis Mapes of Rowlesby in Norfolk was the father of Thomas, the Long Island immigrant. If anyone can provide more information, I would be very grateful.
The book ‘New England Families’ claims that Francis returned to England, and was the father of Thomas.
I am still waiting on copies of a 1664 Norfolk visitation that may or may not prove the connection between Francis and Thomas. Given that the visitations in the last Norfolk visitation mentioned in generation #11 occurred in 1613, it is possible that Thomas, if he was Francis’ son, was not born yet. Someone on WikiTree says that Thomas does not appear in a visitation from 1680
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mapes-38#_note-stramara
Thanks,
Josiah de la Motte
Hi Josiah

The fact that Francis Mapes was one of the Virginia Adventurers just means that he invested in the company, not necessarily that he went to America at any point.

His wife Anne left a will proved in the PCC on 13 June 1657 (Prob 11/226/52) - she was then of Oby, Norfolk, but asked to be buried at Rollesby church in the chancel, near to her late husband Francis Mapes, Esquire. She names her late father, Richard Loveday, and her two daughters and their issue: Anne, wife of Henry Barney of Briston, and Katherine, wife of the late John Guydon. It is clear from the will that the two daughters are her sole heirs.

While a will is not apparent, a judicial sentence (ruling) was made in respect of the estate Francis Mapes of Rollesby on 13 November 1638 (Prob 11/178/346). This names his brothers Richard and Robert Mapes, his widow Anne Mapes, and his daughter Katherine Gibbon (sic) and Anne, then an unmarried minor it would seem.

I think we can conclude that Francis and Anne were not the parents of Thomas Mapes.
Josiah de la Motte
2020-08-24 21:51:41 UTC
Permalink
Ah, thanks so much! I found Anne’s will, but not the estate document for Francis. I suppose you’re right, and he probably would have been named an heir... Well it’s back to square one. Thanks everyone for your help with this one!
Post by Mark Jennings
Post by Josiah de la Motte
I’d like to ask for any input anyone can give concerning a possible line to Edward III through Thomas Mapes of Southold, Surry, Long Island, NY.
Generations 1-8: Roberts page 385
Edward III = Phillipa of Hainault
Lionel Plantagenet = Elizabeth de Burgh
Phillipa Plantagenet = Edmund Mortimer
Elizabeth Mortimer =Sir Henry “Hotspur” Percy
Elizabeth Percy = John Clifford
Mary Clifford = Sir Philip Wentworth
Sir Henry Wentworth= Anne Saye
Elizabeth Wentworth = Roger Darcy
Generations 9 and 10: History of Parliament biographies of Sir Thomas Darcy and Richard Southwell by S. M. Thorpe and S. R. Johnson
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/darcy-sir-thomas-1506-58
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/southwell-richard-1531-1600#footnote1_jzgs5g1
Sir Thomas Darcy = ?
Mary Darcy= Sir Richard Southwell
Generation 11-13: Visitations of Norfolk, 1563 and 1613, published in 1891 by the Harleian Society; page 196
https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/196/mode/2up?q=Mapes
Richard Southwell (illegitimate)= ?
Catherine Southwell = Leonard Mapes
Francis Mapes = Anne Loveday
Francis is mentioned among the adventurers for Virginia in 1620. ‘The Travels of Captaine John Smith’, volume 1; page 263.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x000301612&view=1up&seq=313&q1=Mapes
The next generation is where the contention comes in. I have found no actual evidence yet that Francis Mapes of Rowlesby in Norfolk was the father of Thomas, the Long Island immigrant. If anyone can provide more information, I would be very grateful.
The book ‘New England Families’ claims that Francis returned to England, and was the father of Thomas.
I am still waiting on copies of a 1664 Norfolk visitation that may or may not prove the connection between Francis and Thomas. Given that the visitations in the last Norfolk visitation mentioned in generation #11 occurred in 1613, it is possible that Thomas, if he was Francis’ son, was not born yet. Someone on WikiTree says that Thomas does not appear in a visitation from 1680
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mapes-38#_note-stramara
Thanks,
Josiah de la Motte
Hi Josiah
The fact that Francis Mapes was one of the Virginia Adventurers just means that he invested in the company, not necessarily that he went to America at any point.
His wife Anne left a will proved in the PCC on 13 June 1657 (Prob 11/226/52) - she was then of Oby, Norfolk, but asked to be buried at Rollesby church in the chancel, near to her late husband Francis Mapes, Esquire. She names her late father, Richard Loveday, and her two daughters and their issue: Anne, wife of Henry Barney of Briston, and Katherine, wife of the late John Guydon. It is clear from the will that the two daughters are her sole heirs.
While a will is not apparent, a judicial sentence (ruling) was made in respect of the estate Francis Mapes of Rollesby on 13 November 1638 (Prob 11/178/346). This names his brothers Richard and Robert Mapes, his widow Anne Mapes, and his daughter Katherine Gibbon (sic) and Anne, then an unmarried minor it would seem.
I think we can conclude that Francis and Anne were not the parents of Thomas Mapes.
Josiah de la Motte
2020-08-29 20:06:32 UTC
Permalink
I am continuing to look into the parentage of Thomas Mapes, and I found something of interest. A man named Lester Dunbar Mapes did some solid research in the 1930s, and published his findings in this book:

https://archive.org/details/tentativecorrect00mape/page/n7/mode/2up?q=Rollesby+

Interestingly, it references a baptism record from May of 1628 for Thomas Mapes in Rollesby, the same location as the manor owned by Leonard Mapes and his son Francis. It presumably does not name his parents, because the researcher, even though he decided that Francis must not be the father of Thomas using the same documents referenced in the previous comments, he does not name any other candidates for Thomas’ parents. It does supposedly reference the rector who performed the baptism, though, by the name of Hammond Claxton, and he is named on the index below (you have to browse to find the listing).

https://theclergydatabase.org.uk/jsp/search/index.jsp

Hammond Claxton was also rector for the Parish of Holt. I checked the parish registers there as well as in Rollesby and Thomas Mapes makes no appearance in either of these records. I am trying to figure out where the original record would be located (assuming that Lester Mapes or some other person didn’t make it up), and I’ve had no luck so far. Does anyone have any idea what sort of baptismal record would (a) not be found in the parish registers, and (b) name the rector and not the parents?

If I were to verify that the baptism occurred in Rollesby, the next step would of course be to locate the correct father, which, given the location, would likely be one of Leonard’s four other sons. I am also looking for wills for the correction time period for people of the surname Mapes, and so far I’ve searched the Canterbury Court, the Sentences of the Canterbury Court, and the collections of the Norfolk Record Office with no promising results. The results for this last locations are linked to below:

http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Overview.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqSearch=%28%28%28text%29%3D%27mapes%27%29AND%28Category%3D%27probate%27%29%29&dsqPos=1&dsqNum=15&PF=No

Am I missing something? Does anyone have any suggestions for where to look next?


Thanks so much,

Josiah de la Motte
Post by Josiah de la Motte
Ah, thanks so much! I found Anne’s will, but not the estate document for Francis. I suppose you’re right, and he probably would have been named an heir... Well it’s back to square one. Thanks everyone for your help with this one!
Post by Mark Jennings
Post by Josiah de la Motte
I’d like to ask for any input anyone can give concerning a possible line to Edward III through Thomas Mapes of Southold, Surry, Long Island, NY.
Generations 1-8: Roberts page 385
Edward III = Phillipa of Hainault
Lionel Plantagenet = Elizabeth de Burgh
Phillipa Plantagenet = Edmund Mortimer
Elizabeth Mortimer =Sir Henry “Hotspur” Percy
Elizabeth Percy = John Clifford
Mary Clifford = Sir Philip Wentworth
Sir Henry Wentworth= Anne Saye
Elizabeth Wentworth = Roger Darcy
Generations 9 and 10: History of Parliament biographies of Sir Thomas Darcy and Richard Southwell by S. M. Thorpe and S. R. Johnson
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/darcy-sir-thomas-1506-58
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/southwell-richard-1531-1600#footnote1_jzgs5g1
Sir Thomas Darcy = ?
Mary Darcy= Sir Richard Southwell
Generation 11-13: Visitations of Norfolk, 1563 and 1613, published in 1891 by the Harleian Society; page 196
https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/196/mode/2up?q=Mapes
Richard Southwell (illegitimate)= ?
Catherine Southwell = Leonard Mapes
Francis Mapes = Anne Loveday
Francis is mentioned among the adventurers for Virginia in 1620. ‘The Travels of Captaine John Smith’, volume 1; page 263.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x000301612&view=1up&seq=313&q1=Mapes
The next generation is where the contention comes in. I have found no actual evidence yet that Francis Mapes of Rowlesby in Norfolk was the father of Thomas, the Long Island immigrant. If anyone can provide more information, I would be very grateful.
The book ‘New England Families’ claims that Francis returned to England, and was the father of Thomas.
I am still waiting on copies of a 1664 Norfolk visitation that may or may not prove the connection between Francis and Thomas. Given that the visitations in the last Norfolk visitation mentioned in generation #11 occurred in 1613, it is possible that Thomas, if he was Francis’ son, was not born yet. Someone on WikiTree says that Thomas does not appear in a visitation from 1680
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mapes-38#_note-stramara
Thanks,
Josiah de la Motte
Hi Josiah
The fact that Francis Mapes was one of the Virginia Adventurers just means that he invested in the company, not necessarily that he went to America at any point.
His wife Anne left a will proved in the PCC on 13 June 1657 (Prob 11/226/52) - she was then of Oby, Norfolk, but asked to be buried at Rollesby church in the chancel, near to her late husband Francis Mapes, Esquire. She names her late father, Richard Loveday, and her two daughters and their issue: Anne, wife of Henry Barney of Briston, and Katherine, wife of the late John Guydon. It is clear from the will that the two daughters are her sole heirs.
While a will is not apparent, a judicial sentence (ruling) was made in respect of the estate Francis Mapes of Rollesby on 13 November 1638 (Prob 11/178/346). This names his brothers Richard and Robert Mapes, his widow Anne Mapes, and his daughter Katherine Gibbon (sic) and Anne, then an unmarried minor it would seem.
I think we can conclude that Francis and Anne were not the parents of Thomas Mapes.
Mark Jennings
2020-08-29 21:26:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Josiah de la Motte
https://archive.org/details/tentativecorrect00mape/page/n7/mode/2up?q=Rollesby+
Interestingly, it references a baptism record from May of 1628 for Thomas Mapes in Rollesby, the same location as the manor owned by Leonard Mapes and his son Francis. It presumably does not name his parents, because the researcher, even though he decided that Francis must not be the father of Thomas using the same documents referenced in the previous comments, he does not name any other candidates for Thomas’ parents. It does supposedly reference the rector who performed the baptism, though, by the name of Hammond Claxton, and he is named on the index below (you have to browse to find the listing).
https://theclergydatabase.org.uk/jsp/search/index.jsp
Hammond Claxton was also rector for the Parish of Holt. I checked the parish registers there as well as in Rollesby and Thomas Mapes makes no appearance in either of these records. I am trying to figure out where the original record would be located (assuming that Lester Mapes or some other person didn’t make it up), and I’ve had no luck so far. Does anyone have any idea what sort of baptismal record would (a) not be found in the parish registers, and (b) name the rector and not the parents?
http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Overview.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqSearch=%28%28%28text%29%3D%27mapes%27%29AND%28Category%3D%27probate%27%29%29&dsqPos=1&dsqNum=15&PF=No
Am I missing something? Does anyone have any suggestions for where to look next?
Thanks so much,
Josiah de la Motte
Presumably this is a mis-reading for the baptism of Thomas Mathewes (son of Thomas) on 4 May 1628, and a mere assumption that because Claxton was then Rector, he must have conducted the baptism.
Josiah de la Motte
2020-08-29 22:49:22 UTC
Permalink
Is that so? Could you post a link to the baptism for Matthews? That would be one confusing complication off the list!

Thanks
Post by Mark Jennings
Post by Josiah de la Motte
https://archive.org/details/tentativecorrect00mape/page/n7/mode/2up?q=Rollesby+
Interestingly, it references a baptism record from May of 1628 for Thomas Mapes in Rollesby, the same location as the manor owned by Leonard Mapes and his son Francis. It presumably does not name his parents, because the researcher, even though he decided that Francis must not be the father of Thomas using the same documents referenced in the previous comments, he does not name any other candidates for Thomas’ parents. It does supposedly reference the rector who performed the baptism, though, by the name of Hammond Claxton, and he is named on the index below (you have to browse to find the listing).
https://theclergydatabase.org.uk/jsp/search/index.jsp
Hammond Claxton was also rector for the Parish of Holt. I checked the parish registers there as well as in Rollesby and Thomas Mapes makes no appearance in either of these records. I am trying to figure out where the original record would be located (assuming that Lester Mapes or some other person didn’t make it up), and I’ve had no luck so far. Does anyone have any idea what sort of baptismal record would (a) not be found in the parish registers, and (b) name the rector and not the parents?
http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Overview.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqSearch=%28%28%28text%29%3D%27mapes%27%29AND%28Category%3D%27probate%27%29%29&dsqPos=1&dsqNum=15&PF=No
Am I missing something? Does anyone have any suggestions for where to look next?
Thanks so much,
Josiah de la Motte
Presumably this is a mis-reading for the baptism of Thomas Mathewes (son of Thomas) on 4 May 1628, and a mere assumption that because Claxton was then Rector, he must have conducted the baptism.
Josiah de la Motte
2020-08-29 23:00:06 UTC
Permalink
I found it, never mind. That’s crazy that that scrawling “Matthews” could have been mistaken for “Mapes”, but I think you must be right... I found an August 1629 baptism in Horsford, Norfolk, that gives Thomas Mape as a son of Thomas and and his wife Dorothy, and this may be the correct one. In 1658 Thomas, the immigrant, gave a deposition stating that he was “about thirty years of age”, and this would be just about right...

Thanks again Mr. Rawlings,
Josiah de la Motte
Post by Josiah de la Motte
Is that so? Could you post a link to the baptism for Matthews? That would be one confusing complication off the list!
Thanks
Post by Mark Jennings
Post by Josiah de la Motte
https://archive.org/details/tentativecorrect00mape/page/n7/mode/2up?q=Rollesby+
Interestingly, it references a baptism record from May of 1628 for Thomas Mapes in Rollesby, the same location as the manor owned by Leonard Mapes and his son Francis. It presumably does not name his parents, because the researcher, even though he decided that Francis must not be the father of Thomas using the same documents referenced in the previous comments, he does not name any other candidates for Thomas’ parents. It does supposedly reference the rector who performed the baptism, though, by the name of Hammond Claxton, and he is named on the index below (you have to browse to find the listing).
https://theclergydatabase.org.uk/jsp/search/index.jsp
Hammond Claxton was also rector for the Parish of Holt. I checked the parish registers there as well as in Rollesby and Thomas Mapes makes no appearance in either of these records. I am trying to figure out where the original record would be located (assuming that Lester Mapes or some other person didn’t make it up), and I’ve had no luck so far. Does anyone have any idea what sort of baptismal record would (a) not be found in the parish registers, and (b) name the rector and not the parents?
http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Overview.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqSearch=%28%28%28text%29%3D%27mapes%27%29AND%28Category%3D%27probate%27%29%29&dsqPos=1&dsqNum=15&PF=No
Am I missing something? Does anyone have any suggestions for where to look next?
Thanks so much,
Josiah de la Motte
Presumably this is a mis-reading for the baptism of Thomas Mathewes (son of Thomas) on 4 May 1628, and a mere assumption that because Claxton was then Rector, he must have conducted the baptism.
Josiah de la Motte
2020-08-29 23:01:06 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Jennings I mean, sorry :)
Post by Josiah de la Motte
I found it, never mind. That’s crazy that that scrawling “Matthews” could have been mistaken for “Mapes”, but I think you must be right... I found an August 1629 baptism in Horsford, Norfolk, that gives Thomas Mape as a son of Thomas and and his wife Dorothy, and this may be the correct one. In 1658 Thomas, the immigrant, gave a deposition stating that he was “about thirty years of age”, and this would be just about right...
Thanks again Mr. Rawlings,
Josiah de la Motte
Post by Josiah de la Motte
Is that so? Could you post a link to the baptism for Matthews? That would be one confusing complication off the list!
Thanks
Post by Mark Jennings
Post by Josiah de la Motte
https://archive.org/details/tentativecorrect00mape/page/n7/mode/2up?q=Rollesby+
Interestingly, it references a baptism record from May of 1628 for Thomas Mapes in Rollesby, the same location as the manor owned by Leonard Mapes and his son Francis. It presumably does not name his parents, because the researcher, even though he decided that Francis must not be the father of Thomas using the same documents referenced in the previous comments, he does not name any other candidates for Thomas’ parents. It does supposedly reference the rector who performed the baptism, though, by the name of Hammond Claxton, and he is named on the index below (you have to browse to find the listing).
https://theclergydatabase.org.uk/jsp/search/index.jsp
Hammond Claxton was also rector for the Parish of Holt. I checked the parish registers there as well as in Rollesby and Thomas Mapes makes no appearance in either of these records. I am trying to figure out where the original record would be located (assuming that Lester Mapes or some other person didn’t make it up), and I’ve had no luck so far. Does anyone have any idea what sort of baptismal record would (a) not be found in the parish registers, and (b) name the rector and not the parents?
http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Overview.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqSearch=%28%28%28text%29%3D%27mapes%27%29AND%28Category%3D%27probate%27%29%29&dsqPos=1&dsqNum=15&PF=No
Am I missing something? Does anyone have any suggestions for where to look next?
Thanks so much,
Josiah de la Motte
Presumably this is a mis-reading for the baptism of Thomas Mathewes (son of Thomas) on 4 May 1628, and a mere assumption that because Claxton was then Rector, he must have conducted the baptism.
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