Discussion:
Who is mother of Elizabeth, wife of Fergus of Galloway???
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Don Matson
2003-11-03 16:37:06 UTC
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Who is mother of Elizabeth, Princess of England, dau. of Henry I
"Beauclerc" 1068-1135? Elizabeth married Fergus of Galloway.
On internet, I've found she was a daughter of Henry's mistress Sybilla
Corbet who he had several illigetimate children with & I've found she
was a daughter of Matilda/Edith Atheling of Scotland & one place her
name was Edith FitzForne.
Which was it???
Todd A. Farmerie
2003-11-03 22:58:47 UTC
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Post by Don Matson
Who is mother of Elizabeth, Princess of England, dau. of Henry I
"Beauclerc" 1068-1135? Elizabeth married Fergus of Galloway.
On internet, I've found she was a daughter of Henry's mistress Sybilla
Corbet who he had several illigetimate children with & I've found she
was a daughter of Matilda/Edith Atheling of Scotland & one place her
name was Edith FitzForne.
Which was it???
The fact is that there is not even any contemporary source that names
Elizabeth as daughter of Henry - just that several of her descendants
are called kin of Henry II and his. Thus any discussion of which mother
it might be is premature, and any identifications that you find are
groundless. It can be said with certainty, however, that it was not
Eadgyth/Matilda of Scotland, Henry's queen, by whom he had just one
child who survived to adulthood, 'Queen' Matilda.

taf
Stewart Baldwin
2003-11-04 00:53:48 UTC
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Post by Don Matson
Who is mother of Elizabeth, Princess of England, dau. of Henry I
"Beauclerc" 1068-1135? Elizabeth married Fergus of Galloway.
On internet, I've found she was a daughter of Henry's mistress Sybilla
Corbet who he had several illigetimate children with & I've found she
was a daughter of Matilda/Edith Atheling of Scotland & one place her
name was Edith FitzForne.
Which was it???
The name of the wife of Fergus is evidently unknown. Certainly, no
evidence has ever been advanced in support of that name in the
numerous discussion we have had on this list on the topic of the
identity of Fergus's wife, who was PROBABLY (but not certainly) an
illegitimate daughter of Henry I by an unknown mistress. The
evidence, which has been discussed here on quite a few occasions (for
which you should check the archives), is that sons and grandsons of
Fergus are called relatives of English kings in a number of sources,
and that Fergus's wife being an illegitimate daughter of Henry appears
to be the simplest explanation of this evidence.

Stewart Baldwin
Douglas Richardson
2003-11-04 13:46:15 UTC
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Dear Don ~

Below please find a slightly revised copy of my recent post regarding
the matter of the identification of the unknown wife of Fergus, Lord
of Galloway. I believe this message answers your question as to the
identity of this lady.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: ***@msn.com
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Subject: Plantagenet kinsfolk: Galloway, Carrick, and Isle of Man
View: Complete Thread (9 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2003-08-06 19:14:50 PST
In the course of surveying medieval records for the forthcoming book,
Plantagenet Ancestry, I've located several references to king's
kinsfolk which involve descendants of Fergus, Prince of Galloway (died
1161):

1. Uchtred Fitz Fergus of Galloway styled "kinsman" [consanguineum] of
King Henry II of England [Reference: W. Stubbs, Chronica Magistri
Rogeri de Houedene 2 (Rolls Ser. 51) (1869): 105].

2. Duncan, Earl of Carrick, styled "kinsman" by King John [Reference:
J. Bain, Cal. of Docs. Rel. Scotland 1 (1881): No. 480].

3. Reynold, King of Man, styled "kinsman" by King John [Reference: T.
Rymer, Foedera 1 Pt. 1 (1816): 91].

The above three parties, Uchtred Fitz Fergus, Earl Duncan, and King
Reynold, are respectively grandson, great-grandson, and great-grandson
of Fergus of Galloway (died 1161), by an unknown wife.

My own theory on the kinship behind these relationships is that Fergus
of Galloway's unknown wife was a daughter of Duncan, eldest son of
Malcolm Canmore, King of Scotland. This arrangement would give the
above three parties kinship to King Henry II of England in the 3rd
degree, and a kinship to King John in the 4th degree. It is also
possible that Fergus' wife was an illegitimate daughter of King Henry
I of England. Either way would provide the necessary links between
all of these parties.

There is no evidence that Fergus' wife was Elizabeth, illegitimate
daughter of King Henry I of England, as often alleged in print (see,
for example, G.W.S. Barrow Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm
of Scotland (1965): 36). The name of Fergus' wife is presently
unknown.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: ***@msn.com

©2003 Google
Stewart Baldwin
2003-11-06 05:16:29 UTC
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Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Don ~
Below please find a slightly revised copy of my recent post regarding
the matter of the identification of the unknown wife of Fergus, Lord
of Galloway. I believe this message answers your question as to the
identity of this lady.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Subject: Plantagenet kinsfolk: Galloway, Carrick, and Isle of Man
View: Complete Thread (9 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2003-08-06 19:14:50 PST
In the course of surveying medieval records for the forthcoming book,
Plantagenet Ancestry, I've located several references to king's
kinsfolk which involve descendants of Fergus, Prince of Galloway (died
1. Uchtred Fitz Fergus of Galloway styled "kinsman" [consanguineum] of
King Henry II of England [Reference: W. Stubbs, Chronica Magistri
Rogeri de Houedene 2 (Rolls Ser. 51) (1869): 105].
J. Bain, Cal. of Docs. Rel. Scotland 1 (1881): No. 480].
3. Reynold, King of Man, styled "kinsman" by King John [Reference: T.
Rymer, Foedera 1 Pt. 1 (1816): 91].
The above three parties, Uchtred Fitz Fergus, Earl Duncan, and King
Reynold, are respectively grandson, great-grandson, and great-grandson
of Fergus of Galloway (died 1161), by an unknown wife.
My own theory on the kinship behind these relationships is that Fergus
of Galloway's unknown wife was a daughter of Duncan, eldest son of
Malcolm Canmore, King of Scotland. ...
This theory has, of course, been stated on a number of occasions in
this group before, and the problem is the same as it has been before,
i.e., there is no direct evidence to support this alternative. (The
fact that it is does not contradict the known evidence does not count
as supporting evidence.)
Post by Douglas Richardson
... This arrangement would give the
above three parties kinship to King Henry II of England in the 3rd
degree, and a kinship to King John in the 4th degree. It is also
possible that Fergus' wife was an illegitimate daughter of King Henry
I of England. Either way would provide the necessary links between
all of these parties.
Here, you make a point of describing the exact degree of the
relationships according to the Scottish theory that you favor, yet you
conveniently leave out the fact that the English theory favored by
practically everyone else would make the kinship one generation
closer, and therefore be a better fit to the evidence.
Post by Douglas Richardson
There is no evidence that Fergus' wife was Elizabeth, illegitimate
daughter of King Henry I of England, as often alleged in print (see,
for example, G.W.S. Barrow Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm
of Scotland (1965): 36). The name of Fergus' wife is presently
unknown.
It is true that no evidence has been produced regarding the name of
Fergus's wife. However, the wording of the first sentence in the
above paragraph, while technically true, is misleading, as there is
significant evidence that Fergus's wife was AN illegitimate daughter
of Henry I (of whatever name). That is because there is strong direct
evidence from a number of independent sources that Fergus's
descendants were related to the Englis royal family, whereas there is
NO known direct evidence that they were related to the Scottish royal
family. Although it cannot be regarded as proven with the available
evidence, the theory that Fergus's wife was an illegitimate daughter
of Henry I clearly fits the evidence better than the Scottish theory
or any alternate English connection (like the one dubious source that
makes her a daughter of William Rufus).

Stewart Baldwin
Hans Vogels
2003-11-06 12:40:33 UTC
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Dear newsgroup,

Lots of words are spend with regard to the identification of the
unknown wife of Fergus, Lord of Galloway.

Are there any suggestions on the parentage of Fergus, prince of
Galloway, himself? The name Uchtred for his son is still not
explained.

Hans Vogels
Post by Stewart Baldwin
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Don ~
Below please find a slightly revised copy of my recent post regarding
the matter of the identification of the unknown wife of Fergus, Lord
of Galloway. I believe this message answers your question as to the
identity of this lady.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Subject: Plantagenet kinsfolk: Galloway, Carrick, and Isle of Man
View: Complete Thread (9 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2003-08-06 19:14:50 PST
In the course of surveying medieval records for the forthcoming book,
Plantagenet Ancestry, I've located several references to king's
kinsfolk which involve descendants of Fergus, Prince of Galloway (died
1. Uchtred Fitz Fergus of Galloway styled "kinsman" [consanguineum] of
King Henry II of England [Reference: W. Stubbs, Chronica Magistri
Rogeri de Houedene 2 (Rolls Ser. 51) (1869): 105].
J. Bain, Cal. of Docs. Rel. Scotland 1 (1881): No. 480].
3. Reynold, King of Man, styled "kinsman" by King John [Reference: T.
Rymer, Foedera 1 Pt. 1 (1816): 91].
The above three parties, Uchtred Fitz Fergus, Earl Duncan, and King
Reynold, are respectively grandson, great-grandson, and great-grandson
of Fergus of Galloway (died 1161), by an unknown wife.
My own theory on the kinship behind these relationships is that Fergus
of Galloway's unknown wife was a daughter of Duncan, eldest son of
Malcolm Canmore, King of Scotland. ...
This theory has, of course, been stated on a number of occasions in
this group before, and the problem is the same as it has been before,
i.e., there is no direct evidence to support this alternative. (The
fact that it is does not contradict the known evidence does not count
as supporting evidence.)
Post by Douglas Richardson
... This arrangement would give the
above three parties kinship to King Henry II of England in the 3rd
degree, and a kinship to King John in the 4th degree. It is also
possible that Fergus' wife was an illegitimate daughter of King Henry
I of England. Either way would provide the necessary links between
all of these parties.
Here, you make a point of describing the exact degree of the
relationships according to the Scottish theory that you favor, yet you
conveniently leave out the fact that the English theory favored by
practically everyone else would make the kinship one generation
closer, and therefore be a better fit to the evidence.
Post by Douglas Richardson
There is no evidence that Fergus' wife was Elizabeth, illegitimate
daughter of King Henry I of England, as often alleged in print (see,
for example, G.W.S. Barrow Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm
of Scotland (1965): 36). The name of Fergus' wife is presently
unknown.
It is true that no evidence has been produced regarding the name of
Fergus's wife. However, the wording of the first sentence in the
above paragraph, while technically true, is misleading, as there is
significant evidence that Fergus's wife was AN illegitimate daughter
of Henry I (of whatever name). That is because there is strong direct
evidence from a number of independent sources that Fergus's
descendants were related to the Englis royal family, whereas there is
NO known direct evidence that they were related to the Scottish royal
family. Although it cannot be regarded as proven with the available
evidence, the theory that Fergus's wife was an illegitimate daughter
of Henry I clearly fits the evidence better than the Scottish theory
or any alternate English connection (like the one dubious source that
makes her a daughter of William Rufus).
Stewart Baldwin
Peter Stewart
2003-11-06 22:54:41 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Dear newsgroup,
Lots of words are spend with regard to the identification of the
unknown wife of Fergus, Lord of Galloway.
Are there any suggestions on the parentage of Fergus, prince of
Galloway, himself? The name Uchtred for his son is still not
explained.
If you can find it, try Richard Oram's paper, 'A Family Business?
Colonisation and Settlement in Twelfth- and Thirteenth-century
Galloway' in _Scottish Historical Review_ 72 (1993) pp 111-145. I
can't check this at present, but it should be held in some university
& other reference libraries in the Netherlands.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2003-11-07 11:45:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Hans Vogels
Dear newsgroup,
Lots of words are spend with regard to the identification of the
unknown wife of Fergus, Lord of Galloway.
Are there any suggestions on the parentage of Fergus, prince of
Galloway, himself? The name Uchtred for his son is still not
explained.
If you can find it, try Richard Oram's paper, 'A Family Business?
Colonisation and Settlement in Twelfth- and Thirteenth-century
Galloway' in _Scottish Historical Review_ 72 (1993) pp 111-145. I
can't check this at present, but it should be held in some university
& other reference libraries in the Netherlands.
I have now checked this article and find that Oram makes only a
passing reference to the origin of Fergus, on pp 118-9, writing "the
belief that Fergus was of Anglo-Norman stock cannot be credited".

Citations in the paper to studies that may elaborate on this are:

D Brooke, 'Fergus of Galloway: Miscellaneous notes for a revised
portrait', _Transactions of the Dumfries and Galloway Natural History
and Antiquarian Society_, 3rd series 66 (1991)

R D Oram, 'Fergus, Galloway and the Scots', _Galloway: Land and
Lordship_ edited by R D Oram & G P Stell (Edinburgh, 1991)

and his Ph D thesis, 'The Lordship of Galloway c.1000 to c.1250' (St
Andrews University, 1988).

He also remarks (p 116) that "When Fergus first appears as a charter
witness in 1136 he is accompanied by his son, Uhtred, who must have
been at least fifteen years old to have acted as a witness". He
accepts the marriage to a daughter of Henry I, suggesting a date
around 1120 for this and a political motive in compensating by the
alliance for the loss of Ranulf in the English north-west, when he
gave up the lordship of Carlisle to become earl of Chester.

Peter Stewart
Hans Vogels
2003-11-10 12:34:57 UTC
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Thank you Peter and Stewart for your posts on this subject.

I take that Scotland at that time had no clear onomastic traditions as
Fergus of Galloway and his sons did not name children after their
illustrious father in law/grandfather king Henry.

Or should we take a more carefull aproach in assuming that children of
that name did not live to adulthood. If so one could deduce that
Uchtred (born minimal 1121) would have been the oldest surviving son
of Fergus. This would lead us to R.D. Oram's suggested marriage year
of ca.1120. King Henry went to Normandy in 1116 and came back in 1120.
One might assume that in this period he had other things to do than
marrying off an illegitimate daughter to a unknown Northerner. If
Fergus was married to a bastard daughther of Henry and if Uchtred was
not his firstborn son then the marriage of Fergus would more likely
have taken place in 1116 or earlier.

The first appearance of Fergus in history is not on his own. He was
accompanied by his son Uchtred when King David I in 1136 granted land
in Perdeyc or Patrick to the Church of Glasgow when that church was
dedicated (R. Bodine, 2000/02/04).
Afterwards we see him as a courtier of David I.
One might ask why he did not witness the deed on his own merrit?
Who else were present at that moment?
Family members of King David I?
Was Fergus bonded by marriage to and his son Uchtred present as a
bloodrelative of the Scottish royal family?

In the same post I read that according to History of the Lands and
Their Owners in Galloway (1906, page 110-) Fergus was 42 years of age
in 1138. Is this a credible fact or an assumption?

Questions, questions, who has a plausible answer?

Hans Vogels
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Hans Vogels
Dear newsgroup,
Lots of words are spend with regard to the identification of the
unknown wife of Fergus, Lord of Galloway.
Are there any suggestions on the parentage of Fergus, prince of
Galloway, himself? The name Uchtred for his son is still not
explained.
If you can find it, try Richard Oram's paper, 'A Family Business?
Colonisation and Settlement in Twelfth- and Thirteenth-century
Galloway' in _Scottish Historical Review_ 72 (1993) pp 111-145. I
can't check this at present, but it should be held in some university
& other reference libraries in the Netherlands.
I have now checked this article and find that Oram makes only a
passing reference to the origin of Fergus, on pp 118-9, writing "the
belief that Fergus was of Anglo-Norman stock cannot be credited".
D Brooke, 'Fergus of Galloway: Miscellaneous notes for a revised
portrait', _Transactions of the Dumfries and Galloway Natural History
and Antiquarian Society_, 3rd series 66 (1991)
R D Oram, 'Fergus, Galloway and the Scots', _Galloway: Land and
Lordship_ edited by R D Oram & G P Stell (Edinburgh, 1991)
and his Ph D thesis, 'The Lordship of Galloway c.1000 to c.1250' (St
Andrews University, 1988).
He also remarks (p 116) that "When Fergus first appears as a charter
witness in 1136 he is accompanied by his son, Uhtred, who must have
been at least fifteen years old to have acted as a witness". He
accepts the marriage to a daughter of Henry I, suggesting a date
around 1120 for this and a political motive in compensating by the
alliance for the loss of Ranulf in the English north-west, when he
gave up the lordship of Carlisle to become earl of Chester.
Peter Stewart
Reedpcgen
2003-11-10 20:55:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hans Vogels
The first appearance of Fergus in history is not on his own. He was
accompanied by his son Uchtred when King David I in 1136 granted land
in Perdeyc or Patrick to the Church of Glasgow when that church was
dedicated (R. Bodine, 2000/02/04).
It should be noted that this is a very early period, and that few document
types that would normally be replied upon a century or two later exist, so one
is actually lucky to find someone mentioned in a charter. The same is the case
in England at this period.

If only a very small percentage of documents that originally pertained to an
individual survive, one must be very careful when drawing conclusions about how
to interpret an individual's status or creating a profile based on surviving
documents.

Paul
Hans Vogels
2003-11-11 07:34:53 UTC
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Permalink
True,

The same aplies to the Low Countries. Nevertheless in a similar case
ca.1106/7 when a widow of a lord granted something to the Church
relatives were present. A nobleman, known before and married twice,
with two sons was there to withness. Years later his eldest son
withnessed the emporal confirmation of the grant so one could come to
the conclusion that the nobleman was probably present as a relative by
marriage and his two young sons as bloodrelatives of the widow or of
the deceased lord.

This example sprang to mind when I noticed that in 1136 Uchtred the
son of Fergus was present alongside his father. I'm not familiar with
the full context of the charter or the others in which Fergus figures
as withness for King David I. Also I'm not aware of the context of the
other charters in which Uchtred figures. I'm not even involved as a
descendant but I'm just curious and thinking along for new angles of
insight.

My point was merely that it could be interesting to look at the full
context, all the persons named in the charters and the sequence of the
withnesses in the charters that mention Fergus and his sons. Was it
common at that time that a nobleman, a vassal of the king, was
accompanied by his son(s)? If not then it could be interesting to
think along the lines sketched.

I've noticed in the previous posts that there are lots of referances
to previous literature and opinions. Who wrote what and when. What
really important is are the basic facts in their full context in the
charters or deeds in original or transcipts and (near) contempory
writers.

Hans Vogels
Post by Reedpcgen
Post by Hans Vogels
The first appearance of Fergus in history is not on his own. He was
accompanied by his son Uchtred when King David I in 1136 granted land
in Perdeyc or Patrick to the Church of Glasgow when that church was
dedicated (R. Bodine, 2000/02/04).
It should be noted that this is a very early period, and that few document
types that would normally be replied upon a century or two later exist, so one
is actually lucky to find someone mentioned in a charter. The same is the case
in England at this period.
If only a very small percentage of documents that originally pertained to an
individual survive, one must be very careful when drawing conclusions about how
to interpret an individual's status or creating a profile based on surviving
documents.
Paul
Hans Vogels
2019-02-23 07:48:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Op dinsdag 11 november 2003 08:34:53 UTC+1 schreef Hans Vogels:
[snip]
Post by Hans Vogels
I've noticed in the previous posts that there are lots of referances
to previous literature and opinions. Who wrote what and when. What
really important is are the basic facts in their full context in the
charters or deeds in original or transcipts and (near) contempory
writers.
Hans Vogels
Are there no published integral Charter books of Scotland with a critical scientifical assessment of the eldest known original charters or later transcripts for the period before -say - 1300?

Hans Vogels
Peter Stewart
2019-02-24 08:37:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hans Vogels
[snip]
Post by Hans Vogels
I've noticed in the previous posts that there are lots of referances
to previous literature and opinions. Who wrote what and when. What
really important is are the basic facts in their full context in the
charters or deeds in original or transcipts and (near) contempory
writers.
Hans Vogels
Are there no published integral Charter books of Scotland with a critical scientifical assessment of the eldest known original charters or later transcripts for the period before -say - 1300?
I'm not sure what is meant by 'critical scientific assessment' unless you mean academic commentary - individual charters have been closely examined in the literature, of course, but subjecting every charter transacted before 1300 to intense study would be a huge undertaking. The extant original charters are not very numerous, but there are plenty of monastic cartularies including transcriptions or exemplars of private acts before 1300.

There are collections such as this https://archive.org/details/earlyscottishch01lawrgoog

Royal acts from 1153-1424 are in course of publication by Edinburgh University Press in the Regesta regum Scottorum series, https://edinburghuniversitypress.com/series-regesta-regum-scottorum.html.

Peter Stewart
Hans Vogels
2019-02-27 07:46:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Hans Vogels
[snip]
Post by Hans Vogels
I've noticed in the previous posts that there are lots of referances
to previous literature and opinions. Who wrote what and when. What
really important is are the basic facts in their full context in the
charters or deeds in original or transcipts and (near) contempory
writers.
Hans Vogels
Are there no published integral Charter books of Scotland with a critical scientifical assessment of the eldest known original charters or later transcripts for the period before -say - 1300?
I'm not sure what is meant by 'critical scientific assessment' unless you mean academic commentary - individual charters have been closely examined in the literature, of course, but subjecting every charter transacted before 1300 to intense study would be a huge undertaking. The extant original charters are not very numerous, but there are plenty of monastic cartularies including transcriptions or exemplars of private acts before 1300.
There are collections such as this https://archive.org/details/earlyscottishch01lawrgoog
Royal acts from 1153-1424 are in course of publication by Edinburgh University Press in the Regesta regum Scottorum series, https://edinburghuniversitypress.com/series-regesta-regum-scottorum.html.
Peter Stewart
Thank you Peter,

Yes, an academic commentary would be the proper translation for what I had in mind. In the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany charter books are available and they come in handy because they collect en review the available material regardless of their origin (regal, Abby, bishop, feudal, nobility, etc.).

With regards,
Hans Vogels
Peter Stewart
2019-02-27 22:09:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hans Vogels
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Hans Vogels
[snip]
Post by Hans Vogels
I've noticed in the previous posts that there are lots of referances
to previous literature and opinions. Who wrote what and when. What
really important is are the basic facts in their full context in the
charters or deeds in original or transcipts and (near) contempory
writers.
Hans Vogels
Are there no published integral Charter books of Scotland with a critical scientifical assessment of the eldest known original charters or later transcripts for the period before -say - 1300?
I'm not sure what is meant by 'critical scientific assessment' unless you mean academic commentary - individual charters have been closely examined in the literature, of course, but subjecting every charter transacted before 1300 to intense study would be a huge undertaking. The extant original charters are not very numerous, but there are plenty of monastic cartularies including transcriptions or exemplars of private acts before 1300.
There are collections such as this https://archive.org/details/earlyscottishch01lawrgoog
Royal acts from 1153-1424 are in course of publication by Edinburgh University Press in the Regesta regum Scottorum series, https://edinburghuniversitypress.com/series-regesta-regum-scottorum.html.
Peter Stewart
Thank you Peter,
Yes, an academic commentary would be the proper translation for what I had in mind. In the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany charter books are available and they come in handy because they collect en review the available material regardless of their origin (regal, Abby, bishop, feudal, nobility, etc.).
As mentioned earlier, many Scottish cartularies have been edited. I had in mind that you could be asking about forensic examination of original charters - ink, parchment and so on - to assess their authenticity. Scotland did not have many rivalries over property and patronage between richly endowed monastic foundations, and there were not production centres of forgery on the industrial scale that is met with in some other European places.

There are also, as mentioned before, not very many extant original Scottish charters from the 12th century or earlier to be examined anyway, so that most of the evidence for private acts is found only in the content of cartularies. The wording of charters and their subscribers and/or witnesses are practically all that can be used for assessment in most cases.

Scottish scholars have been as busy as their counterparts in other European countries over the past 200 years or so, and I can't imagine that there is now anything new to be gleaned from these scant sources about the immediate family of Fergus.

Peter Stewart
p***@gmail.com
2019-02-28 04:58:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Hans Vogels
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Hans Vogels
[snip]
Post by Hans Vogels
I've noticed in the previous posts that there are lots of referances
to previous literature and opinions. Who wrote what and when. What
really important is are the basic facts in their full context in the
charters or deeds in original or transcipts and (near) contempory
writers.
Hans Vogels
Are there no published integral Charter books of Scotland with a critical scientifical assessment of the eldest known original charters or later transcripts for the period before -say - 1300?
I'm not sure what is meant by 'critical scientific assessment' unless you mean academic commentary - individual charters have been closely examined in the literature, of course, but subjecting every charter transacted before 1300 to intense study would be a huge undertaking. The extant original charters are not very numerous, but there are plenty of monastic cartularies including transcriptions or exemplars of private acts before 1300.
There are collections such as this https://archive.org/details/earlyscottishch01lawrgoog
Royal acts from 1153-1424 are in course of publication by Edinburgh University Press in the Regesta regum Scottorum series, https://edinburghuniversitypress.com/series-regesta-regum-scottorum.html.
Peter Stewart
Thank you Peter,
Yes, an academic commentary would be the proper translation for what I had in mind. In the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany charter books are available and they come in handy because they collect en review the available material regardless of their origin (regal, Abby, bishop, feudal, nobility, etc.).
As mentioned earlier, many Scottish cartularies have been edited. I had in mind that you could be asking about forensic examination of original charters - ink, parchment and so on - to assess their authenticity. Scotland did not have many rivalries over property and patronage between richly endowed monastic foundations, and there were not production centres of forgery on the industrial scale that is met with in some other European places.
There are also, as mentioned before, not very many extant original Scottish charters from the 12th century or earlier to be examined anyway, so that most of the evidence for private acts is found only in the content of cartularies. The wording of charters and their subscribers and/or witnesses are practically all that can be used for assessment in most cases.
Scottish scholars have been as busy as their counterparts in other European countries over the past 200 years or so, and I can't imagine that there is now anything new to be gleaned from these scant sources about the immediate family of Fergus.
Peter Stewart
Stewart Baldwin
2003-11-07 05:54:23 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Are there any suggestions on the parentage of Fergus, prince of
Galloway, himself? The name Uchtred for his son is still not
explained.
Fergus (with his Celtic name) and his sons Uchtred (English name) and
Gilbert (Norman name) do present an interesting onomastic mix.
Unfortunately, there is no good evidence for the origins of Fergus, so
trying to explain the names is pretty much guesswork. One attempt to
find a father for Fergus of Galloway which comes to mind (but which I
do not endorse) is the short note by M. Dominica Legge, "The Father of
Fergus of Galloway" in Scottish Historical Review 43 (1964), 86-7.
The source used is the "Roman de Fergus", a romance (as the title
suggests) written in or about the beginning of the thirteenth century,
in which the father of Fergus is named as a certain "Soumilloit". The
similarity between this name and the name "Somerled" (which had also
been pointed out before, as the author notes) is then used to suggest
that "Soumilloit" is based not on Somerled of Argyle, as others have
suggested, but on a Norse Somerled who died in 1164, who the author
then suggests may have been the father of Fergus. Not only is the
chronology for this suggestion shaky (since Fergus was most likely
born before 1100), but an alternate suggestion seems more likely:
Since the famous Somerled of Argyll married an illegitimate daughter
of Olaf of Man, who in turn was married to a daughter of Fergus, and
since writers of romance often juggle the characters to serve their
literary desires, it seems more likley that the author of the romance
borrowed Somerled's name to assign as the father of Fergus, and that
the romance is without value for the identity of the father of Fergus.
(Something like this would also appear to be the opinion of other
scholars to whom the author briefly alludes.)

Stewart Baldwin
p***@gmail.com
2019-02-22 07:56:58 UTC
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Post by Don Matson
Who is mother of Elizabeth, Princess of England, dau. of Henry I
"Beauclerc" 1068-1135? Elizabeth married Fergus of Galloway.
On internet, I've found she was a daughter of Henry's mistress Sybilla
Corbet who he had several illigetimate children with & I've found she
was a daughter of Matilda/Edith Atheling of Scotland & one place her
name was Edith FitzForne.
Which was it???
Fergus of Galloway married twice. The first wife was Aelgifu (born about 1080 and died before 1110). Aelgifu was an illegitimate daughter of Duncan II of Scotland. They had a daughter Maria nic Fergus who married Ivonne of Nithsdale and had a son William. William died in a fight with his Fergus cousins in 1187 over who would be the next Lord of Galloway. This is well documented. Ivonne was the earliest known Kirkpatrick ancestor. See the text Kirkpatricks of Closeburn by Anonymous online at archive.org Fergus' second wife was Sybilla Corbet.
taf
2019-02-22 14:29:57 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
Fergus of Galloway married twice. The first wife was Aelgifu (born
about 1080 and died before 1110). Aelgifu was an illegitimate daughter
of Duncan II of Scotland. They had a daughter Maria nic Fergus who
married Ivonne of Nithsdale and had a son William. William died in a
fight with his Fergus cousins in 1187 over who would be the next Lord
of Galloway. This is well documented. Ivonne was the earliest known
Kirkpatrick ancestor. See the text Kirkpatricks of Closeburn by
Anonymous online at archive.org
Just to be clear, the cited anonymous work on archive.org, from the 1850s, only reports the death of William in a squabble. It reports none of the relationships claimed, though it does refer to an annexed genealogical table that, as is typical, was not scanned. Several other copies on Google Books were also scanned without the chart (there is a copy listed at FamilySearch that would likely include the chart, but it is access-restricted even though it would now be in the public domain). If these relationships are well-documented, as you say, it would be useful were you to provide further details.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Fergus' second wife was Sybilla Corbet.
No, this is not a possibility at all. Some have attributed to Fergus as wife an illegitimate daughter of Henry I. One of the better-known mistresses of Henry was Sybilla Corbet, so according to this chain of supposition, Fergus might have married the daughter of Sybilla Corbet, not Sybilla herself.

taf
Peter Stewart
2019-02-23 00:11:48 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by p***@gmail.com
Fergus of Galloway married twice. The first wife was Aelgifu (born
about 1080 and died before 1110). Aelgifu was an illegitimate daughter
of Duncan II of Scotland. They had a daughter Maria nic Fergus who
married Ivonne of Nithsdale and had a son William. William died in a
fight with his Fergus cousins in 1187 over who would be the next Lord
of Galloway. This is well documented. Ivonne was the earliest known
Kirkpatrick ancestor. See the text Kirkpatricks of Closeburn by
Anonymous online at archive.org
Just to be clear, the cited anonymous work on archive.org, from the 1850s, only reports the death of William in a squabble. It reports none of the relationships claimed, though it does refer to an annexed genealogical table that, as is typical, was not scanned. Several other copies on Google Books were also scanned without the chart (there is a copy listed at FamilySearch that would likely include the chart, but it is access-restricted even though it would now be in the public domain). If these relationships are well-documented, as you say, it would be useful were you to provide further details.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Fergus' second wife was Sybilla Corbet.
No, this is not a possibility at all. Some have attributed to Fergus as wife an illegitimate daughter of Henry I. One of the better-known mistresses of Henry was Sybilla Corbet, so according to this chain of supposition, Fergus might have married the daughter of Sybilla Corbet, not Sybilla herself.
There is no good reason to suppose that Fergus had a second wife anyway - this has been suggested because Roger of Hoveden referred to only one of Fergus' sons, Uchtred, as a kinsman of Henry II in a context where the other son, Gilbert, was also named ('Gilbertus filius Fergus, princeps Galwanorum, qui Ucthredum fratrem suum, consanguineum Henrici regis Angliæ, interficere fecerat'). This is a very flimsy basis for concluding that the two sons of Fergus were only half-brothers, and it is contradicted by Henry II's own son John who called Gilbert's son Duncan, earl of Carrick, his kinsman ('consanguineus noster') in the complaint against William de Braiose written in 1210.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2019-02-23 03:06:56 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by p***@gmail.com
Fergus of Galloway married twice. The first wife was Aelgifu (born
about 1080 and died before 1110). Aelgifu was an illegitimate daughter
of Duncan II of Scotland. They had a daughter Maria nic Fergus who
married Ivonne of Nithsdale and had a son William. William died in a
fight with his Fergus cousins in 1187 over who would be the next Lord
of Galloway. This is well documented. Ivonne was the earliest known
Kirkpatrick ancestor. See the text Kirkpatricks of Closeburn by
Anonymous online at archive.org
Just to be clear, the cited anonymous work on archive.org, from the 1850s, only reports the death of William in a squabble. It reports none of the relationships claimed, though it does refer to an annexed genealogical table that, as is typical, was not scanned. Several other copies on Google Books were also scanned without the chart (there is a copy listed at FamilySearch that would likely include the chart, but it is access-restricted even though it would now be in the public domain). If these relationships are well-documented, as you say, it would be useful were you to provide further details.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Fergus' second wife was Sybilla Corbet.
No, this is not a possibility at all. Some have attributed to Fergus as wife an illegitimate daughter of Henry I. One of the better-known mistresses of Henry was Sybilla Corbet, so according to this chain of supposition, Fergus might have married the daughter of Sybilla Corbet, not Sybilla herself.
I overlooked the last point before - the Sybilla question is bound up with the old error of calling Fergus's wife Elizabeth.

This mistake was made by George Chalmers in the first volume of his 'Caledonia' (1897), p. 366 note (t): 'The property and chieftainry of Fergus descended to his son by Elizabeth, the youngest natural daughter of Henry I. Yorke’s Union of Honour, p. 9; Sandford’s Genealog. History, p. 33’.

All that Yorke (op. cit. p. 9) wrote on the matter is this: 'There was another naturall daughter [of Henry I] Elizabeth, but who marryed her is not certainely knowne.'

Sandford, op. cit. p. 33 wrote: 'Elizabeth, the seventh and youngest natural daughter of King Henry (by Elizabeth, sister of Waleran, Earl of Melent) was married to Alexander, King of Scots'.

But the wife of Alexander I was named Sybilla, not Elizabeth - her mother was Sybilla Corbet. Consequently Chalmers had no basis in his sources for the statement that Fergus's wife was named Elizabeth, and there is no definite basis for making Sybilla Corbet his mother-in-law or for making his wife either her namesake or Elizabeth.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2019-02-23 03:56:27 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Post by taf
Post by p***@gmail.com
Fergus of Galloway married twice. The first wife was Aelgifu (born
about 1080 and died before 1110). Aelgifu was an illegitimate daughter
of Duncan II of Scotland. They had a daughter Maria nic Fergus who
married Ivonne of Nithsdale and had a son William. William died in a
fight with his Fergus cousins in 1187 over who would be the next Lord
of Galloway. This is well documented. Ivonne was the earliest known
Kirkpatrick ancestor. See the text Kirkpatricks of Closeburn by
Anonymous online at archive.org
Just to be clear, the cited anonymous work on archive.org, from the 1850s, only reports the death of William in a squabble. It reports none of the relationships claimed, though it does refer to an annexed genealogical table that, as is typical, was not scanned. Several other copies on Google Books were also scanned without the chart (there is a copy listed at FamilySearch that would likely include the chart, but it is access-restricted even though it would now be in the public domain). If these relationships are well-documented, as you say, it would be useful were you to provide further details.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Fergus' second wife was Sybilla Corbet.
No, this is not a possibility at all. Some have attributed to Fergus as wife an illegitimate daughter of Henry I. One of the better-known mistresses of Henry was Sybilla Corbet, so according to this chain of supposition, Fergus might have married the daughter of Sybilla Corbet, not Sybilla herself.
I overlooked the last point before - the Sybilla question is bound up with the old error of calling Fergus's wife Elizabeth.
This mistake was made by George Chalmers in the first volume of his 'Caledonia' (1897)
Apologies for my typo - the first volume of 'Caledonia' was published in 1807, not 1897.

Peter Stewart
p***@gmail.com
2019-02-28 05:20:08 UTC
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Post by Don Matson
Who is mother of Elizabeth, Princess of England, dau. of Henry I
"Beauclerc" 1068-1135? Elizabeth married Fergus of Galloway.
On internet, I've found she was a daughter of Henry's mistress Sybilla
Corbet who he had several illigetimate children with & I've found she
was a daughter of Matilda/Edith Atheling of Scotland & one place her
name was Edith FitzForne.
Which was it???
Ive been approaching Fergus' ancestry logically. Fergus was the son of King Godfred Crovan who married Princess Maria Haraldsdottir BECAUSE his mother was named Maria and named his daughter Maria after her. (First Marias I have found anywhere at this time and place). He was also he brother of Olafr Gudrodson who was brought up in the court of King Henry I AND so Fergus was probably also brought up with him and that explains why Fergus had good relations with Henry I and second married Elizabeth Talby and was also good friends with David I who was at the English court with them. This gets interesting when you look at the web of their relations. Olafr had 1. Godred who m sister of Somerled. And 2. Ragnhildr who m Somerled. Fergus had Affraic who m her uncle King Olafr. Olafr was also brought up in Henry's court. The Scottish connections refer to Fergus 1st m to a daughter of the King of Scots and had Maria. And Somerled's sister or daughter married King Male Colium OR Somerled's mother 2nd m Alexander II. It was simply complex web of inter connections. If anyone needs to link Fergus and Somerled genealogically - they share a common ancestor at King Ingvar of Sweden (born 606) who had 2 sons. Prince Skirta is ancestor of Fergus and King Braut is ancestor of Somerled. Likewise there is another English connection with Princess Egdiva, d/o King Edward the Elder who m Sigtryg Sigtrysson (born 880) in the same genealogy. There is enough info out there to work out these ancestors.
p***@gmail.com
2019-02-28 05:37:19 UTC
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We need to use logic to get anywhere with the Fergus problems.
Fergus was the s/o King Godfred Crovan and Princess Maria Haraldsdottir. Fergus first m the d/o king of Scotland and had a d. Maria, named after his mother. (There are no other Marias prior to or at that time in this place). So 2 Marias in a row is a BIG coincidence. Fergus is also the brother of Olafr Gudrodarson who m Ingibjorg. Olafr was brought up in King Henry I's court, so its likely his brother Fergus was there with him (because their father had died and no one else could ensure their safety) and both of them would have been friends with David I of Scotland who was also there. Olafr had 2 children. 1. Godred who m sister of Somerled.and 2. Ragnhildr who m Somerled. Fergus by 2nd m had d. Affraic who m her uncle Olafr.
Somerled's sister of daughter m King Mael Coluim of Scotland OR Somerled's mother 2nd m Alexander II of Scotland.
Somerled and Fergus share common ancestors at King Ingvar of Sweden, King Yngvar (the Tall), Eysteinsson of, Sviothiod (born about 606 in Sweden and died at Sten, Estland, Sweden) and his unknown wife had two sons. (a) Prince Skirta Ingvarsson of Sweden (born about 620) was the ancestor of Fergus, Lord of Galloway. (b) King Braut of Uppsala (born 667 and died 718) was the ancestor of Somerled, Lord of the Isles and Man.
Another connection to English court in the same genealogy is at Sigtryg Sigtrygsson (born 880 in Northumbria and died 927 age 47) and wife Princess Edgiva of England (born 896 to 902 died 951). She was the daughter of King Edward the Elder of England (born 874 died 924) and Edgiva of Kent (born about 878 and died 968).
As for the second marriage of Fergus, I think you will find that was Sybilla Corbet. Mistress no. 5.
Hans Vogels
2019-02-28 06:25:49 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
We need to use logic to get anywhere with the Fergus problems.
Fergus was the s/o King Godfred Crovan and Princess Maria Haraldsdottir. Fergus first m the d/o king of Scotland and had a d. Maria, named after his mother. (There are no other Marias prior to or at that time in this place). So 2 Marias in a row is a BIG coincidence. Fergus is also the brother of Olafr Gudrodarson who m Ingibjorg. Olafr was brought up in King Henry I's court, so its likely his brother Fergus was there with him (because their father had died and no one else could ensure their safety) and both of them would have been friends with David I of Scotland who was also there. Olafr had 2 children. 1. Godred who m sister of Somerled.and 2. Ragnhildr who m Somerled. Fergus by 2nd m had d. Affraic who m her uncle Olafr.
Somerled's sister of daughter m King Mael Coluim of Scotland OR Somerled's mother 2nd m Alexander II of Scotland.
Somerled and Fergus share common ancestors at King Ingvar of Sweden, King Yngvar (the Tall), Eysteinsson of, Sviothiod (born about 606 in Sweden and died at Sten, Estland, Sweden) and his unknown wife had two sons. (a) Prince Skirta Ingvarsson of Sweden (born about 620) was the ancestor of Fergus, Lord of Galloway. (b) King Braut of Uppsala (born 667 and died 718) was the ancestor of Somerled, Lord of the Isles and Man.
Another connection to English court in the same genealogy is at Sigtryg Sigtrygsson (born 880 in Northumbria and died 927 age 47) and wife Princess Edgiva of England (born 896 to 902 died 951). She was the daughter of King Edward the Elder of England (born 874 died 924) and Edgiva of Kent (born about 878 and died 968).
As for the second marriage of Fergus, I think you will find that was Sybilla Corbet. Mistress no. 5.
Is this serious or are you raking unreliable bits and pieces together in weaving a story full of assumptions found on the internet?
In 2003 it was already clear that there is no trustworthy information regarding the parents of Fergus.

Hans Vogels
Hans Vogels
2019-02-28 06:53:27 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Post by p***@gmail.com
We need to use logic to get anywhere with the Fergus problems.
Fergus was the s/o King Godfred Crovan and Princess Maria Haraldsdottir. Fergus first m the d/o king of Scotland and had a d. Maria, named after his mother. (There are no other Marias prior to or at that time in this place). So 2 Marias in a row is a BIG coincidence. Fergus is also the brother of Olafr Gudrodarson who m Ingibjorg. Olafr was brought up in King Henry I's court, so its likely his brother Fergus was there with him (because their father had died and no one else could ensure their safety) and both of them would have been friends with David I of Scotland who was also there. Olafr had 2 children. 1. Godred who m sister of Somerled.and 2. Ragnhildr who m Somerled. Fergus by 2nd m had d. Affraic who m her uncle Olafr.
Somerled's sister of daughter m King Mael Coluim of Scotland OR Somerled's mother 2nd m Alexander II of Scotland.
Somerled and Fergus share common ancestors at King Ingvar of Sweden, King Yngvar (the Tall), Eysteinsson of, Sviothiod (born about 606 in Sweden and died at Sten, Estland, Sweden) and his unknown wife had two sons. (a) Prince Skirta Ingvarsson of Sweden (born about 620) was the ancestor of Fergus, Lord of Galloway. (b) King Braut of Uppsala (born 667 and died 718) was the ancestor of Somerled, Lord of the Isles and Man.
Another connection to English court in the same genealogy is at Sigtryg Sigtrygsson (born 880 in Northumbria and died 927 age 47) and wife Princess Edgiva of England (born 896 to 902 died 951). She was the daughter of King Edward the Elder of England (born 874 died 924) and Edgiva of Kent (born about 878 and died 968).
As for the second marriage of Fergus, I think you will find that was Sybilla Corbet. Mistress no. 5.
Is this serious or are you raking unreliable bits and pieces together in weaving a story full of assumptions found on the internet?
In 2003 it was already clear that there is no trustworthy information regarding the parents of Fergus.
Hans Vogels
The PhD Thesis of Richard D. Oram on "The lordship of Galloway c.1000 to c.1250" can be downloaded:
https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/handle/10023/2638

Hans Vogels
taf
2019-02-28 17:52:06 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
We need to use logic to get anywhere with the Fergus problems.
There is a role for logic in genealogy, but by definition when one must resort to logic, it means there is no evidence, so extreme care must be taken to avoid begging the question.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Fergus was the s/o King Godfred Crovan and Princess Maria Haraldsdottir.
There is no evidence this was the case. Indeed, the origin of Fergus has been subject to long debate and discussion, because there isn't the slightest shred of evidence for his parentage.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Fergus first m the d/o king of Scotland and had a d. Maria, named after his
mother. (There are no other Marias prior to or at that time in this place).
So 2 Marias in a row is a BIG coincidence.
Here we risk the circular argument. Was his daughter really named for Maria Haraldsdottir, or has someone concluded that Fergus was son of Maria Haraldsdottir specifically because he named a daughter Maria. Anyhow, if Fergus really did marry the daughter of the king of Scotland, there is an alternative possible namesake for his daughter. David I of Scotland had a sister named Mary (i.e. Maria) who could just as well have been honored by a namesake. No coincidence at play here.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Fergus is also the brother of Olafr Gudrodarson who m Ingibjorg.
Except there isn't any evidence whatsoever that this was the case.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Olafr was brought up in King Henry I's court, so its likely his brother
Fergus was there with him (because their father had died and no one else
could ensure their safety) and both of them would have been friends with
David I of Scotland who was also there.
There is no evidence Fergus was at the English court. The supposition that he must have been is based, not on a kinship to Olafr, but because he appears to have married a kinswoman to the royal family.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Olafr had 2 children. 1. Godred who m sister of Somerled.and 2. Ragnhildr
who m Somerled. Fergus by 2nd m had d. Affraic who m her uncle Olafr.
Outside of the 16th century Habsburgs, cases of authentic uncle/niece marriage are extraordinarily rare, and most claims that this has happened have arisen due to attempts at harmonizing conflicting sources, sloppy guesswork or outright fraud. Fergus had a daughter married to Olafr, but that, in and of itself, is sufficient evidence to reject the idea that Fergus was brother of Olafr.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Somerled's sister of daughter m King Mael Coluim of Scotland OR Somerled's
mother 2nd m Alexander II of Scotland.
What this comes down to is that the Chronicle of Holyrood says that the children of Malcolm macAlexander, son of Alexander I (not II) of Scotland, were the nepotes of Somerled. This relational term can mean grandchildren, (grand-)nephews/nieces or simply 'younger close kin'. The precise nature of this relationship cannot be further determined, and the above are just some of the ways such a relationship could have existed.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Neither of these were the case.
Certainly the Chronicle of Holyrood could be inaccurate on this specific genealogical detail, but on what basis do you reject it?
Post by p***@gmail.com
Somerled and Fergus share common ancestors at King Ingvar of Sweden, King
Yngvar (the Tall), Eysteinsson of, Sviothiod (born about 606 in Sweden and
died at Sten, Estland, Sweden) and his unknown wife had two sons. (a)
Prince Skirta Ingvarsson of Sweden (born about 620) was the ancestor of
Fergus, Lord of Galloway. (b) King Braut of Uppsala (born 667 and died 718)
was the ancestor of Somerled, Lord of the Isles and Man.
With the exception of Fergus and Somerled, none of the people named in this paragraph are actually historical entities. As stated above, the pedigree of Fergus is completely unknown (if you find one, it was certainly invented) and that of Somerled problematic, but certainly can't be traced to legendary 7th century Swedish kings.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Another connection to English court in the same genealogy is at Sigtryg
Sigtrygsson (born 880 in Northumbria and died 927 age 47) and wife Princess
Edgiva of England (born 896 to 902 died 951). She was the daughter of King
Edward the Elder of England (born 874 died 924) and Edgiva of Kent (born\
about 878 and died 968).
The patronymic of Sigtrygg Caech, son in law of Edward, is not found in any primary sources. In Irish sources he is referred to as the grandson (or of the family of) Ivar, and Ivar did have a son Sigtrygg, but it was uncommon for Scandinavians of this period to name a son for the father, so his father was more likely one of Ivar's other known or unknown sons. Likewise the name of his wife is not known with certainty, and the only sources that indicate which of Edward's wives was the mother are very late, and hence far from certain. The marriage took place a year before Sigtrygg died, and, contrary to what one finds online, it is unlikely that any of his known sons were by her. Equally important, there is no known connection of Sigtrygg Caech to either Fergus or Somerled (one has been speculated for Olafr, but this is based on two connect-the-dots conclusions that are far from certain.
Post by p***@gmail.com
As for the second marriage of Fergus, I think you will find that was Sybilla Corbet. Mistress no. 5.
Umm, where will we find this? As I said before, Sybil Corbet was the mistress of Henry I, and based on the primary sources indicating that Fergus's sons were related to Henry II, it has been speculated that Fergus married a daughter of Henry I (arbitrarily given the name Elizabeth). Were his wife actually Henry I's mistress, there would be no such relationship. No, someone has gotten confused here.

taf
Hans Vogels
2019-02-28 20:54:18 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by p***@gmail.com
We need to use logic to get anywhere with the Fergus problems.
There is a role for logic in genealogy, but by definition when one must resort to logic, it means there is no evidence, so extreme care must be taken to avoid begging the question.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Fergus was the s/o King Godfred Crovan and Princess Maria Haraldsdottir.
There is no evidence this was the case. Indeed, the origin of Fergus has been subject to long debate and discussion, because there isn't the slightest shred of evidence for his parentage.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Fergus first m the d/o king of Scotland and had a d. Maria, named after his
mother. (There are no other Marias prior to or at that time in this place).
So 2 Marias in a row is a BIG coincidence.
Here we risk the circular argument. Was his daughter really named for Maria Haraldsdottir, or has someone concluded that Fergus was son of Maria Haraldsdottir specifically because he named a daughter Maria. Anyhow, if Fergus really did marry the daughter of the king of Scotland, there is an alternative possible namesake for his daughter. David I of Scotland had a sister named Mary (i.e. Maria) who could just as well have been honored by a namesake. No coincidence at play here.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Fergus is also the brother of Olafr Gudrodarson who m Ingibjorg.
Except there isn't any evidence whatsoever that this was the case.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Olafr was brought up in King Henry I's court, so its likely his brother
Fergus was there with him (because their father had died and no one else
could ensure their safety) and both of them would have been friends with
David I of Scotland who was also there.
There is no evidence Fergus was at the English court. The supposition that he must have been is based, not on a kinship to Olafr, but because he appears to have married a kinswoman to the royal family.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Olafr had 2 children. 1. Godred who m sister of Somerled.and 2. Ragnhildr
who m Somerled. Fergus by 2nd m had d. Affraic who m her uncle Olafr.
Outside of the 16th century Habsburgs, cases of authentic uncle/niece marriage are extraordinarily rare, and most claims that this has happened have arisen due to attempts at harmonizing conflicting sources, sloppy guesswork or outright fraud. Fergus had a daughter married to Olafr, but that, in and of itself, is sufficient evidence to reject the idea that Fergus was brother of Olafr.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Somerled's sister of daughter m King Mael Coluim of Scotland OR Somerled's
mother 2nd m Alexander II of Scotland.
What this comes down to is that the Chronicle of Holyrood says that the children of Malcolm macAlexander, son of Alexander I (not II) of Scotland, were the nepotes of Somerled. This relational term can mean grandchildren, (grand-)nephews/nieces or simply 'younger close kin'. The precise nature of this relationship cannot be further determined, and the above are just some of the ways such a relationship could have existed.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Neither of these were the case.
Certainly the Chronicle of Holyrood could be inaccurate on this specific genealogical detail, but on what basis do you reject it?
Post by p***@gmail.com
Somerled and Fergus share common ancestors at King Ingvar of Sweden, King
Yngvar (the Tall), Eysteinsson of, Sviothiod (born about 606 in Sweden and
died at Sten, Estland, Sweden) and his unknown wife had two sons. (a)
Prince Skirta Ingvarsson of Sweden (born about 620) was the ancestor of
Fergus, Lord of Galloway. (b) King Braut of Uppsala (born 667 and died 718)
was the ancestor of Somerled, Lord of the Isles and Man.
With the exception of Fergus and Somerled, none of the people named in this paragraph are actually historical entities. As stated above, the pedigree of Fergus is completely unknown (if you find one, it was certainly invented) and that of Somerled problematic, but certainly can't be traced to legendary 7th century Swedish kings.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Another connection to English court in the same genealogy is at Sigtryg
Sigtrygsson (born 880 in Northumbria and died 927 age 47) and wife Princess
Edgiva of England (born 896 to 902 died 951). She was the daughter of King
Edward the Elder of England (born 874 died 924) and Edgiva of Kent (born\
about 878 and died 968).
The patronymic of Sigtrygg Caech, son in law of Edward, is not found in any primary sources. In Irish sources he is referred to as the grandson (or of the family of) Ivar, and Ivar did have a son Sigtrygg, but it was uncommon for Scandinavians of this period to name a son for the father, so his father was more likely one of Ivar's other known or unknown sons. Likewise the name of his wife is not known with certainty, and the only sources that indicate which of Edward's wives was the mother are very late, and hence far from certain. The marriage took place a year before Sigtrygg died, and, contrary to what one finds online, it is unlikely that any of his known sons were by her. Equally important, there is no known connection of Sigtrygg Caech to either Fergus or Somerled (one has been speculated for Olafr, but this is based on two connect-the-dots conclusions that are far from certain.
Post by p***@gmail.com
As for the second marriage of Fergus, I think you will find that was Sybilla Corbet. Mistress no. 5.
Umm, where will we find this? As I said before, Sybil Corbet was the mistress of Henry I, and based on the primary sources indicating that Fergus's sons were related to Henry II, it has been speculated that Fergus married a daughter of Henry I (arbitrarily given the name Elizabeth). Were his wife actually Henry I's mistress, there would be no such relationship. No, someone has gotten confused here.
taf
All TAF mentioned and much more fact and fiction on Fergus can be read in the PhD Thesis of Richard D. Oram (433 pages of typescript) I previously mentioned. I already read a bit myself.

Hans Vogels
taf
2019-03-01 01:33:03 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by p***@gmail.com
Somerled and Fergus share common ancestors at King Ingvar of Sweden, King
Yngvar (the Tall), Eysteinsson of, Sviothiod (born about 606 in Sweden and
died at Sten, Estland, Sweden) and his unknown wife had two sons. (a)
Prince Skirta Ingvarsson of Sweden (born about 620) was the ancestor of
Fergus, Lord of Galloway. (b) King Braut of Uppsala (born 667 and died 718)
was the ancestor of Somerled, Lord of the Isles and Man.
With the exception of Fergus and Somerled, none of the people
named in this paragraph are actually historical entities. As
stated above, the pedigree of Fergus is completely unknown (if
you find one, it was certainly invented) and that of Somerled
problematic, but certainly can't be traced to legendary 7th
century Swedish kings.
These legendary kings have not been discussed in a long time, so maybe a review would be helpful. The descent given above is from Yngvar the Tall. Though legend has made him a king of Sweden, it has also made him ancestor of the kings of Norway.

The mythical line is as follows:

Yngvar
Braut-Onundr
Ingjald
Olafr Tree-feller (fled Sweden for what became Norway)
Halfdan Whiteleg
Eystein Fart
Halfdan the Mild
Gudrod the Hunter (2 sons)
Olaf Gerted-Alf Halfdan the Black
Rognvald Harald Fairhair

(note: it has been suggested by one scholar many decades ago that the source has been misunderstood, and that Godrod was actually son of Halfdan Whiteleg, but this is not the consensus)

The majority of this descent is found in a narrative account of the founding of Norway in the Icelandic saga, Heimskringla, from many centuries after the events being described. The first of these men to have been named in a contemporary source is through to be Rognvald, about whom skaldic poetry was written that provides some of this pedigree. That poetry doesn't survive, except couplets that have been incorporated into Heimskringla. We don't know any dates for him, but we do know that he was roughly contemporaneous with Harald Fairhair (the same skald appears to have written about both of them during their lives). Later Icelandic sagas make Halfdan the uncle of Rognvald through an awkward late second marriage of Gudrod.

There was also a saga about Halfdan the Black. It makes absolutely no reference to his parentage, in spite of there already being epic poetry about that family, and instead places all his early activity is a different area than that the sagas claim was ruled by Rognvald and his predecessors. Since Harald is said to have unified Norway there is every reason to believe that 1) Halfdan the Black was not a member of the Yngling family from which Rognvald descended, or was from the same statelet; and 2) that when Harald united Norway, he conquered and annexed Rognvald's Norwegian polity, but also conquered and annexed Rognvald's pedigree.

Unsupported speculation aside, there are no acceptable descents from the Ynglings, the family of Rognvald. Likewise, the descents given from Harald Fairfair are mostly dubious. Thus, I am not sure how this pedigree is supposed to be deriving Somerled from Braut-Onundr (I do see a claimed descent for his wife), but for the early part of the pedigree through which it must be tracing there just aren't any sources until eight generations later, and that only in snippets embedded in a later saga that is more fabulous tale that history.

On the other supposed branch, Skirta, given here as another son of Yngvar the Tall, appears to have been created in order to link together two legends - he is made Radbart, father of Randver, father of Sigurd Hring, father of Ragnar Lodbrok. This descent is even more dubious, having accrued much later to that of the Ynglingatal (the Norwegian descent). This is historical myth making plain and simple. Sigurd Hring is likely a very confused representation of a pair of 9th century rivals, Sigtrygg and Anlauf (represented as Anulo, hence Ring), but the dating is all wrong for this. Likewise, Ragnar Lodbrok appears to be a historical construct, combining the lives and children of several distinct individuals. Effectively, they never existed as persons, but are legendary composites characters.

THe descent tracing Fergus from this line is easy to guess. Fergus is wrongly made son of Godfred Crovan (Olafr's father). He is being accepted as descendant of Imhar, ancestor of kings of Dublin and Northumbria. Imhar is often identified with Ivar the Boneless, himself a semi-legendary leader of the Great Heathen Army who in the legends is son of Ragnar Lodbrok, and from there back to Skirta. Even if this pedigree didn't fail with the first generation, the parentage of Fergus, there are further problems getting to Imhar, his identity with Ivar the Boneless is far from certain, and from there back is just legend.

So, both sides are problematic.

taf
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2019-03-01 14:18:37 UTC
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In your opinion, was Fergus of Galloway of Gaelic, Norse or mixed ie Norse-Gaelic descent?
taf
2019-03-01 15:38:37 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
In your opinion, was Fergus of Galloway of Gaelic, Norse or mixed ie Norse-Gaelic descent?
I don't think he would have ended up with the name Fergus were he exclusively Norse, so he must have been at least part-Gaelic, but the other part could have also been Gaelic too, Norse, English or even Norman. We just don't know.

Less certain, the fact contrary to contemporary custom he is never given a patronymic might be taken to indicate that there was something 'new' about him - his origins were somewhat obscure to the people around him. This has usually been taken to suggest that he was from elsewhere, whether that be eastern Scotland or further afield.

taf
r***@cox.net
2019-09-30 01:23:26 UTC
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thePeerage.com

Fergus, Lord of Galloway1
M, #4585, d. 1161

Last Edited=27 Jul 2019
     Fergus, Lord of Galloway married Joan (?), daughter of Henry I 'Beauclerc', King of England.2 He married Elizabeth (?), daughter of Henry I 'Beauclerc', King of England, circa 1124 at Carrick, Ayrshire, Scotland. He died in 1161.1
     He gained the title of Lord of Galloway.1
Child of Fergus, Lord of Galloway
1 Gilbert of Galloway+1 d. 1 Jan 1185
Child of Fergus, Lord of Galloway and Elizabeth (?)
1 Uchtred, Lord of Galloway+3 d. 22 Sep 1174
Citations
1 [S6] G.E. Cokayne; with Vicary Gibbs, H.A. Doubleday, Geoffrey H. White, Duncan Warrand and Lord Howard de Walden, editors, The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct or Dormant, new ed., 13 volumes in 14 (1910-1959; reprint in 6 volumes, Gloucester, U.K.: Alan Sutton Publishing, 2000), volume III, page 55. Hereinafter cited as The Complete Peerage.
2 [S11] Alison Weir, Britain's Royal Families: The Complete Genealogy (London, U.K.: The Bodley Head, 1999), page 49. Hereinafter cited as Britain's Royal Families.
3 [S130] Wikipedia, online http;//www.wikipedia.org. Hereinafter cited as Wi
taf
2019-09-30 09:01:12 UTC
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Post by r***@cox.net
thePeerage.com
Not the most reliable of sources
Post by r***@cox.net
Fergus, Lord of Galloway1
M, #4585, d. 1161
     Fergus, Lord of Galloway married Joan (?), daughter of Henry I
'Beauclerc', King of England.2 He married Elizabeth (?), daughter of
Henry I 'Beauclerc', King of England, circa 1124 at Carrick, Ayrshire,
Scotland. He died in 1161.1
This is pretty typical - the compiler found one source in which Fergus' wife is identified as perhaps Mary, daughter of Henry I, and a different source calling her perhaps Elizabeth, daughter of Henry I. The most parsimonious way to harmonize this is to call his wife a daughter of Henry I perhaps named Mary or Elizabeth, but that's not what was done here, the compiler instead concluding that Possibly Mary and Possibly Elizabeth were two separate women, both daughters of Henry I and sequential wives of Fergus.

As mentioned long ago in this thread, there is no reason to assign Fergus two different wives, let alone two who were sisters. If Gilbert was son of Fergus by a daughter of Henry I whose name is uncertain, and Uhtred was son of Fergus by a daughter of Henry I whose name is uncertain, and we have no direct evidence, just that Uhtred and the son of Gilbert are called kinsmen of the English royal family, what possible reason could there be for reconstructing it to make their mothers be different daughters of Henry.

taf

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