Discussion:
Was the term sister used for niece?
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k***@aapt.net.au
2019-08-08 04:24:17 UTC
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I have a translated copy of the draft will of Johanna Roucle dated 1431. In it she leaves items to "my sister Joan Hosyer". But she seems to also leave items to "my sister Joan daughter of Lord John Hosyer". John Hosyer was the husband of her sister Joan.

Was the term "sister" used to indicate both a true sister and a niece in legal documents in the 1400s?
Thanks for any help.

Kerrie
Andrew Lancaster
2019-08-08 08:50:06 UTC
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Post by k***@aapt.net.au
I have a translated copy of the draft will of Johanna Roucle dated 1431. In it she leaves items to "my sister Joan Hosyer". But she seems to also leave items to "my sister Joan daughter of Lord John Hosyer". John Hosyer was the husband of her sister Joan.
Was the term "sister" used to indicate both a true sister and a niece in legal documents in the 1400s?
Thanks for any help.
Kerrie
Joan and Johanna are the same name, so although families sometimes did give the same name twice, a possibility to keep in mind from the beginning is that these two sisters are sisters-in-law or half sisters. Most obviously, the two Joans might share the same mother but not the same father?

From the small amount of information the first thing I would be re-checking is whether you are really certain that Joan Hosyer sister of Joan Roucle was definitely married to John Hosyer, or could that just be an assumption has made because she has a sister with a different surname?
taf
2019-08-08 09:53:02 UTC
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Post by k***@aapt.net.au
I have a translated copy of the draft will of Johanna Roucle dated 1431. In it she leaves items to "my sister Joan Hosyer". But she seems to also leave items to "my sister Joan daughter of Lord John Hosyer". John Hosyer was the husband of her sister Joan.
Was the term "sister" used to indicate both a true sister and a niece in legal documents in the 1400s?
Thanks for any help.
I have not seen is used this way. It seems more likely that the translation (or even the original will) had an error in it, that it should read "my sister Joan wife of Lord John Hosyer" or "My sister Joan's daughter, of Lord John Hosyer." Do you have access to the original will or just the translation?

taf
k***@aapt.net.au
2019-08-10 01:24:05 UTC
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Post by k***@aapt.net.au
I have a translated copy of the draft will of Johanna Roucle dated 1431. In it she leaves items to "my sister Joan Hosyer". But she seems to also leave items to "my sister Joan daughter of Lord John Hosyer". John Hosyer was the husband of her sister Joan.
Was the term "sister" used to indicate both a true sister and a niece in legal documents in the 1400s?
Thanks for any help.
Kerrie
Am I able to post attachments to the list. I can send copies of sections of the original will.
Thanks
Kerrie
taf
2019-08-10 02:50:30 UTC
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Post by k***@aapt.net.au
Am I able to post attachments to the list. I can send copies of sections
of the original will.
No, the list is text only. A citation for it would be a good start.

taf
k***@aapt.net.au
2019-08-10 05:06:59 UTC
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Post by k***@aapt.net.au
I have a translated copy of the draft will of Johanna Roucle dated 1431. In it she leaves items to "my sister Joan Hosyer". But she seems to also leave items to "my sister Joan daughter of Lord John Hosyer". John Hosyer was the husband of her sister Joan.
Was the term "sister" used to indicate both a true sister and a niece in legal documents in the 1400s?
Thanks for any help.
Kerrie
It is listed in the NA Discovery Catalogue as AC95.32/60 as being held at the Isle of Wight RO. I have a digitised copy of the draft will from the RO. I then had a lady in Canada translate it from the Latin into English.

The first time Joan Hosyer is mentioned it says "Lego Johanno Hosyer [then a blank space] meo & marcas argenti….." It goes to mention "Johanno my filia" (her daughter which is correct), a bit further it says "Lego Johanno Hozyer sorori mea centum Solidos….." and towards the end it says "judicari coram summon ju: dice et ejus wadere ullionem filia domini Johannis Hosyer supervixerit me".

I hope this makes sense to someone.
Thanks
Kerrie
k***@aapt.net.au
2019-08-10 05:30:08 UTC
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Post by k***@aapt.net.au
I have a translated copy of the draft will of Johanna Roucle dated 1431. In it she leaves items to "my sister Joan Hosyer". But she seems to also leave items to "my sister Joan daughter of Lord John Hosyer". John Hosyer was the husband of her sister Joan.
Was the term "sister" used to indicate both a true sister and a niece in legal documents in the 1400s?
Thanks for any help.
Kerrie
Sorry, towards the end it actually says "Item, volo et finaliter desidero quod si praedicta JOHANNA soror mea filia domini Johannis Hosyer supervixerit me et omnes haeredes meos de corpore meo legitime…." That probably makes more sense.

Kerrie
Andrew Lancaster
2019-08-10 09:25:16 UTC
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Post by k***@aapt.net.au
Post by k***@aapt.net.au
I have a translated copy of the draft will of Johanna Roucle dated 1431. In it she leaves items to "my sister Joan Hosyer". But she seems to also leave items to "my sister Joan daughter of Lord John Hosyer". John Hosyer was the husband of her sister Joan.
Was the term "sister" used to indicate both a true sister and a niece in legal documents in the 1400s?
Thanks for any help.
Kerrie
Sorry, towards the end it actually says "Item, volo et finaliter desidero quod si praedicta JOHANNA soror mea filia domini Johannis Hosyer supervixerit me et omnes haeredes meos de corpore meo legitime…." That probably makes more sense.
Kerrie
Hi again Kerrie, I am still wondering whether there is definitely a record for "John Hosyer was the husband of her sister Joan"?

If there really is a clear record for this the only solution I can see for now is that there are two generations of John and the word filia is being used for a daughter-in-law.
k***@aapt.net.au
2019-08-11 01:16:26 UTC
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Post by k***@aapt.net.au
I have a translated copy of the draft will of Johanna Roucle dated 1431. In it she leaves items to "my sister Joan Hosyer". But she seems to also leave items to "my sister Joan daughter of Lord John Hosyer". John Hosyer was the husband of her sister Joan.
Was the term "sister" used to indicate both a true sister and a niece in legal documents in the 1400s?
Thanks for any help.
Kerrie
The only record I can find of John Hosyer is his mention in this will. I was relying on the transcription to be correct and that Joan Hosyer was a sister of Johanna Roucle who made the draft will. Perhaps she was not a sister at all. Johanna Roucle was the daughter of John Garston and a reference I have states she was his sole heiress, another that she was a co-heiress. So which one is correct? John Garston was married twice, perhaps Joan was a daughter of the second marriage.

Thanks for your interest.
Andrew Lancaster
2019-08-11 07:59:03 UTC
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Post by k***@aapt.net.au
Post by k***@aapt.net.au
I have a translated copy of the draft will of Johanna Roucle dated 1431. In it she leaves items to "my sister Joan Hosyer". But she seems to also leave items to "my sister Joan daughter of Lord John Hosyer". John Hosyer was the husband of her sister Joan.
Was the term "sister" used to indicate both a true sister and a niece in legal documents in the 1400s?
Thanks for any help.
Kerrie
The only record I can find of John Hosyer is his mention in this will. I was relying on the transcription to be correct and that Joan Hosyer was a sister of Johanna Roucle who made the draft will. Perhaps she was not a sister at all. Johanna Roucle was the daughter of John Garston and a reference I have states she was his sole heiress, another that she was a co-heiress. So which one is correct? John Garston was married twice, perhaps Joan was a daughter of the second marriage.
Thanks for your interest.
So why did you feel confident that John Hosyer was the father of Joan Hosyer? Could that just be a misunderstanding? As to having 2 different fathers, as I mentioned earlier the two Joans could be half sisters.
k***@aapt.net.au
2019-08-11 08:21:29 UTC
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Post by k***@aapt.net.au
I have a translated copy of the draft will of Johanna Roucle dated 1431. In it she leaves items to "my sister Joan Hosyer". But she seems to also leave items to "my sister Joan daughter of Lord John Hosyer". John Hosyer was the husband of her sister Joan.
Was the term "sister" used to indicate both a true sister and a niece in legal documents in the 1400s?
Thanks for any help.
Kerrie
Because of the transcribed will of Johanna Roucle nee Garston:-

"Item, I give to JOAN HOSYER my [sister] 10 silver marks, forty cows, my horse with the whole of his chair, one gown ...."

Next there was a bequest to Johanna's daughter then came
"Item, I give to JOAN HOZYER my sister one hundred shillings, my gown of scarlet with a silver purse"

Then at the bottom of the will it says
"Item, I wish and finally desire that if the aforesaid JOAN MY SISTER, the daughter of Lord John Hosyer should survive me.."

A few lines later it says
"which the same John [Garston] my father should come me and the heirs of my body after the death of Elizabeth, his wife [wife of John Garston], they shall remain to MY SISTER LADY JOAN and to her heirs and assigns in perpetuity."

It seemed to me that Johanna's father John Garston was wanting his estate to pass to his own blood kin in the event that Johanna Roucle died without issue. Therefore Joan Hosyer had to be a blood relative of Johanna Roucle and I assumed because it said sister that Joan was Johanna's sister and was married to John Hosyer and Joan was their daughter. But why would John Garston be concerned about Joan Hosyer if she wasn't his daughter?

Hence my original question as to whether the term "sister" used to indicate both a true sister and a niece in legal documents in the 1400s?

Thanks
taf
2019-08-11 14:20:51 UTC
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Post by k***@aapt.net.au
A few lines later it says
"which the same John [Garston] my father should come me and the heirs of my
body after the death of Elizabeth, his wife [wife of John Garston], they
shall remain to MY SISTER LADY JOAN and to her heirs and assigns in
perpetuity."
It seemed to me that Johanna's father John Garston was wanting his estate to
pass to his own blood kin in the event that Johanna Roucle died without
issue. Therefore Joan Hosyer had to be a blood relative of Johanna Roucle
and I assumed because it said sister that Joan was Johanna's sister and was
married to John Hosyer and Joan was their daughter. But why would John
Garston be concerned about Joan Hosyer if she wasn't his daughter?
I am not seeing this. It looks to me like Garston's land had been previously entailed, first to his wife Elizabeth, then to his daughter Joan. Here Joan Roucle is here adding a revertant to the entail, that were she to d.s.p. it should go to her 'sister'. Gaston's wishes have nothing to do with it.
Post by k***@aapt.net.au
Hence my original question as to whether the term "sister" used to indicate
both a true sister and a niece in legal documents in the 1400s?
As I said, I have never seen such a usage. In addition to the common usage of biological full-sister, it was used for half-sisters and sisters-in-law, but I haven't seen niece.

You have four entries all of which call Joan her sister, one of which calls her Joan Hosyer and one of which calls her daughter of John Hosyer - there is no reason not to view these as all the same person, and I see no reason to conclude that when she referred to this woman as 'sister', she really meant 'niece'.
k***@aapt.net.au
2019-08-12 07:27:13 UTC
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Post by k***@aapt.net.au
I have a translated copy of the draft will of Johanna Roucle dated 1431. In it she leaves items to "my sister Joan Hosyer". But she seems to also leave items to "my sister Joan daughter of Lord John Hosyer". John Hosyer was the husband of her sister Joan.
Was the term "sister" used to indicate both a true sister and a niece in legal documents in the 1400s?
Thanks for any help.
Kerrie
OK, thanks, I realise I have been terribly confused but you put it all so simply for me. I do appreciate your help and the others who have replied. I now understand there is only one Joan Hosyer and that she is not a niece of Johanna's. How she is related to Johanna may have to remain a mystery.

Kerrie

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