Discussion:
Family of St. Liz
(too old to reply)
mrdgen
2008-03-26 14:36:16 UTC
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In going through online editions of The Victoria County History, I
have developed the following outline of the St. Liz family. One thing
to be noted is that it is at some variance from that shown by Leo van
der Pas at his (invaluable!) Genealogics website. Corrections or
discussion are welcome.

One person that I cannot place is Agnes de St. Liz, who married
William Fielding.

Regards,

Mike

****************

1. Ranulph the Rich, a Norman

Children: Simon de St. Liz
William de St. Liz. He held the manor of Down Hall in Seaton,
Rutlandshire, from Judith of Lens [1]

______________________________________________________________________
1.1. Simon de St. Liz

d.c. 1111 in France while on pilgrimage

Simon was a crusader.

Spouse: Maude of Huntingdon

Children: Simon de St Liz
Maude de Senlis, married (1) to Robert de Clare and (2) to Saher de
Quincy.
Waltheof de St. Liz, abbot of Melrose; d. 3 Aug. 1159

1.1.1.a. Simon de St. Liz

Earl of Huntingdon and Northampton
d. Aug. 1153

Spouse: Isabel de Beaumont

Children: Simon de St. Liz
Isabel de St. Liz


1.1.1.a.1 Simon de St. Liz

b. 1138
Earl of Huntingdon and Northampton
d. 1183

Spouse: Alice de Gant [2],

Children: Simon de St. Liz, d.s.p. bef. 1183 [2]

________________________________________________________________________
1.1.1.a.2 Isabel de St. Liz

Spouse: William Mauduit

Children: Robert Mauduit

1.1.1.b. Simon de St. Liz

Earl of Huntingdon and Northampton
d. Aug. 1153

Illegitimate child: Simon de St. Liz [3], [4]

1.1.1.b.1 Simon de St. Liz

living 1207; d.c. 1214 [3]
Held property in Mary-le-Bow in London; granted land in Conington
(Hunts), probably before 1184, to St. Mary de Pré, Northampton, for
the souls of himself and his ancestors and his nephew (nepos) Simon,
Alice de Gant being a witness to the charter [1], [4]

Children: Simon de St. Liz

1.1.1.b.1.1 Simon de St. Liz

d.c. 1227

claimed half knight's fee in Conington, 1214; joined barons in revolt
against king John; pledged fealty to king Henry III, 1217; 1223,
purchased wardship marriage of heir of Richard the Crossbowman
(Balistarius) of Seaton, Rutland [1].

Children; Simon de St. Liz
Ralph de St. Liz, alive 1259.

________________________________________________________________________
1.1.1.b.1.1.1 Simon de St. Liz

d. 1259

renewed grant of wardship and marriage of heiress Amy/Anne of Richard
the Crossbowman of Seaton in Rutland, 1227; married Amy afterward;
steward to Ralph de Neville, Bishop of Chichester; claimed a third of
revenues of Huntingdon, 1248. [1], [4]

Spouse: Amy/Anne `Balistarius', daughter of Richard the Crossbowman
of Seaton, Rutland, and wife Isabel. [1]

Children: John de St. Liz, d.s.p.
Richard de St. Liz
Simon de St. Liz

1.1.1.b.1.1.1.2 Richard de St. Liz

d. bef. 1287

In 1275 the jurors of Wrandike Hundred declared that he gave 40s. to
Anketin de Martival to avoid knighthood.

Child: William de St. Liz

1.1.1.b.1.1.1.2.1 William de St. Liz

"Presented to the church of Morcott in 1287 and 1295, he was holding
by knight service in the Hundred of Wrandike in 1302, and in 1304 he
manumitted two of his tenants in Seaton. He held Down Hall in 1316,
when he was appointed one of the commissioners of array in Rutland for
the expedition against the Scots. He was knight of the shire in 1312
and died before Trinity term 1321". [1]

Spouse: Matilda (Leo van der Pas)

Children: Roland de St. Liz
Richard de St. Liz
Alice de St. Liz

1.1.1.b.1.1.1.2.1.1 Roland de St. Liz

Spouse: Agnes de Empingham [1]

Child: Roland de St. Liz

1.1.1.b.1.1.1.2.1.1.1 Roland de St. Liz

d.c. 1429

1398, given seisin of a third part of a cottage and 3 acres in
Morcott, Rutland. [1]

Spouse: Alice Pinchbeck [1]

Children: Isabel de St. Liz
Margaret de St. Liz

1.1.1.b.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1 Isabel de St. Liz

Spouse: William Sheffield.

Isabel and William inherited in full the St. Liz manors of Down Hall,
Seaton, and Morcutt.

Child: John Sheffield.

1.1.1.b.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.2 Margaret de St. Liz

Spouse: Henry Durant, of Cottesmore
Spouse: John Burgh.

1.1.1.b.1.1.1.2.1.2 Richard de St. Liz

Settled manor of Seaton in Rutland on self, wife, and heirs, 1321.
Knight of the shire, 1328, 1330, 1335 and 1336.

Spouse: Joan Gernon

Children: William de St. Liz, d.s.p.
Thomas de St. Liz, d.s.p.
Simon de St. Liz, d.s.p.
John de St. Liz, d.s.p.
Elizabeth de St. Liz, d.s.p.
Margaret de St. Liz.

1.1.1.b.1.1.1.2.1.2.6 Margaret de St. Liz

Spouse: Robert Poynton

Child: Robert Poynton [1]

1.1.1.b.1.1.1.2.1.3. Alice de St. Liz

b.c. 1300

Spouse: John Lyons

________________________________________________________________________
1.1.1.b.1.1.1.3. Simon de St. Lys

d. 1288

Held land at Thrupp, Oxfordshire, 1251. Held manors of Westbury and
Radclive in Buckinghamshire [2]

Spouse: Joan de Hareng, daughter of Ralph de Hareng.

Children: Andrew de St. Liz, lord of manor of Radclive in Bucks.,
1302; alive, 1328.
John de St. Liz.
Jordan de St Lys, alive 1302.
Roger de St. Lys, d. by 1327; married to Agnes.
Ralph de St. Lys, rector of Radclive.
Simon de St. Lys, m. to Rose.

(Simon had a second wife, named Isabel de Waleys, dau. John de Waleys
and Margery le Dun.)

________________________________________________________________________
1.1.1.b.1.1.1.3.2. John de St. Liz

d. 1281-1283

Child: Alice de St. Liz, m. 1283 to Robert de Vaux


[1] VCH History of Rutland, vol. 2, pp. 213-221.
[2] VCH History of Buckinghamshire, vol. 4, pp. 323-27.
[3] Historical Gazetteer of London before the Great Fire, by Keene and
Harding, 1987, pp. 276-282.
[4] VCH History of Huntingdon, vol. 3, pp. 144-151.
dhoppe
2014-05-23 19:04:45 UTC
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1.1.1.b.1.1.1.3.2. John de St. Liz

From VCH Bottisham Manors and other estates:
...The holding later styled VAUXES manor (fn. 84) was created by the king's clerk, Ellis of Beckingham, a justice of the Common Pleas from 1285 to his death c. 1306. (fn. 85) In 1275 he bought with his brother-in-law John of St. Liz (d. 1281 × 1283) 48 a. (fn. 86) partly held as ¼ fee of the Deresley fee. (fn. 87) In 1283 Ellis settled 85 a. on the marriage of John's daughter Alice to his own ward Robert de Vaux, (fn. 88) of age by 1305...

Select cases in the Court of King' Bench: Volume 55:
...Michaelmas term of 1275 when John de Senlis and his colleagues, Henry of Guildford and William of Normanton, as clerks of Richard of Staines and Ellis of Beckingham...
Carl-Henry Geschwind
2019-12-23 19:27:00 UTC
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Post by mrdgen
1.1.1.b.1 Simon de St. Liz
living 1207; d.c. 1214 [3]
Held property in Mary-le-Bow in London; granted land in Conington
(Hunts), probably before 1184, to St. Mary de Pré, Northampton, for
the souls of himself and his ancestors and his nephew (nepos) Simon,
Alice de Gant being a witness to the charter [1], [4]
Children: Simon de St. Liz
1.1.1.b.1.1 Simon de St. Liz
d.c. 1227
claimed half knight's fee in Conington, 1214; joined barons in revolt
against king John; pledged fealty to king Henry III, 1217; 1223,
purchased wardship marriage of heir of Richard the Crossbowman
(Balistarius) of Seaton, Rutland [1].
Children; Simon de St. Liz
Ralph de St. Liz, alive 1259.
It appears that in all of the secondary sources cited here (as well as several others I have consulted) the relationship between 1.1.1.b.1 (the Simon de St. Liz who was the illegitimate son of Simon II Earl of Huntingdon) and 1.1.1.b.1.1 (the Simon de St. Liz who was seneschal of the Bishop of Chichester in the late 1220s) is described only as "probable". There seems to be no actual document in which one is called the son of the other.

The main evidence in favor of a probable relationship are:

1. The son of the younger Simon de St. Liz (yet another Simon, 1.1.1.b.1.1.1 in the list above) in 1248 was allowed the earl's third penny for Huntingdon, despite the earldom being vacant; this, together with the characteristic first name of Simon strongly suggests a relationship to the family of St. Liz/Senlis that had earlier furnished the earls of Huntingdon. This relationship can only have been through an illegitimate branch, as otherwise our Simon should likely have been installed as earl on the death of Simon III Earl of Huntingdon or at least shared in his inheritance.

2. The last name St. Liz/Senlis by this time was a family name and not a toponym; thus, any family relationship must have been through a male line. And the older Simon de St. Liz is the only illegitimate son known in the family (though of course this does not rule out the existence of other unknown illegitimate sons).

3. The older Simon de St. Liz before about 1184 granted a meadow in Conington, Huntingdonshire. The younger Simon de St. Liz in 1214 claimed a half knight's fee in Conington (a claim that was renewed by the younger Simon's son in 1235). This seems to be the only evidence directly tying the two men together.

QUERY: If the younger Simon de St. Liz had been the son not of the older Simon de St. Liz, but of another illegitimate son of the St. Liz family, would he still have been able to claim the half knight's fee in Conington as the older Simon's nephew, or would it have gone instead to the older Simon's legitimate niece Isabel and her Mauduit descendants? In other words, is the younger Simon's claim sufficient evidence in itself that he had to be the older Simon's son?
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