Discussion:
Mabel de Braose, wife of Nigel de Mowbray: a conjecture
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John P. Ravilious
2007-06-03 04:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Sunday, 3 June, 2007


Hello All,

Past discussion concerning the identity of Mabel, wife of
Nigel de Mowbray (d. 1191) has centred around traditional
identifications as a daughter of William Patrick, or of Roger
de Clare, Earl of Hertford. The core evidence (or lack thereof)
has been the question of Banstead, Surrey, and how Mabel had
received this as her maritagium [1].

While the VCH text concerning the manor of Banstead itself
does not resolve the question, the subsequent text concerning
North Tadworth in Banstead appears to point to a solution:

' William de Braose, lord of Bramber, held Tadorne NORTH
TADWORTH in 1086 as half a hide, Halsart being his tenant;
Godtovi had held it of King Harold and could seek what lord
he pleased. (fn. 133) In the early 13th century William
Haunsard held a fee in Book-ham and Tadworth of the honour
of Brembre (Bramber). (fn. 134) Later in the century, but
before 1243, he was stated to hold two fees in Tadworth of
Hubert de Burgh, of the honour of Mowbray. (fn. 135) In
1273 John and James, sons of William Haunsard, gave a
carucate of land, 2 acres of pasture, 12 acres of wood,
and 20s. rent in North Tadworth and Little Bookham to the
Prior of St. Mary Overy. (fn. 136) ' [2]


The indication here is that North Tadworth was held of
William de Braose and his family, but subsequently was held
of the honour of Mowbray. Further, this indicates that one
William Hansard and his heirs held North Tadworth during the
13th century, which may indicate an inheritance from Matilda
(one of the heirs of Robert de Mowbray) and her husband John
Haunsard, or Hansard.

If Mabel was in fact a de Braose, she was likely a daughter
of William de Braose of Bramber, and his wife Bertha of
Hereford. Chronologically this would fit, and further has
two pieces of onomastic support:

A. William de Mowbray, Mabel's son, would have been the
namesake of William de Braose (d. ca. 1192).

B. The introduction of the name Philip into the Mowbray
family, with a younger son of Mabel, would be explained,
as this was a traditional name in the de Braose
family. Mabel, as a daughter of William de Braose
(d. ca. 1192), would have had three near relations -
paternal grandfather, uncle and nephew, each named
Philip.

Should the suggested filiation be proven, it would add an
additional de Braose line of ancestry for the large number
of Mowbray descendants. Additional direct evidence concerning
this conjecture is being sought. Should anyone have additional
relevant documentation, suggestions, comment or criticism, that
would be welcome as always.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] CP X:372 (footnotes), sub _Mowbray_.

[2] A History of the County of Surrey: Volume 3 (1911),
'Parishes: Banstead', pp. 252-62. The footnotes to the
above text:

' 133 V.C.H. Surr. i, 321a, 282.
134 Red Book of Exch. (Rolls Ser.), 561.
135 Testa de Nevill (Rec. Com), 220, 221b.
136 Feet of F. Div. Co. 1 Edw. II, 11. '

The URL for the subject text:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=42963



* John P. Ravilious
Benjamin Filipowicz
2021-10-14 02:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by John P. Ravilious
Sunday, 3 June, 2007
Hello All,
Past discussion concerning the identity of Mabel, wife of
Nigel de Mowbray (d. 1191) has centred around traditional
identifications as a daughter of William Patrick, or of Roger
de Clare, Earl of Hertford. The core evidence (or lack thereof)
has been the question of Banstead, Surrey, and how Mabel had
received this as her maritagium [1].
While the VCH text concerning the manor of Banstead itself
does not resolve the question, the subsequent text concerning
' William de Braose, lord of Bramber, held Tadorne NORTH
TADWORTH in 1086 as half a hide, Halsart being his tenant;
Godtovi had held it of King Harold and could seek what lord
he pleased. (fn. 133) In the early 13th century William
Haunsard held a fee in Book-ham and Tadworth of the honour
of Brembre (Bramber). (fn. 134) Later in the century, but
before 1243, he was stated to hold two fees in Tadworth of
Hubert de Burgh, of the honour of Mowbray. (fn. 135) In
1273 John and James, sons of William Haunsard, gave a
carucate of land, 2 acres of pasture, 12 acres of wood,
and 20s. rent in North Tadworth and Little Bookham to the
Prior of St. Mary Overy. (fn. 136) ' [2]
The indication here is that North Tadworth was held of
William de Braose and his family, but subsequently was held
of the honour of Mowbray. Further, this indicates that one
William Hansard and his heirs held North Tadworth during the
13th century, which may indicate an inheritance from Matilda
(one of the heirs of Robert de Mowbray) and her husband John
Haunsard, or Hansard.
If Mabel was in fact a de Braose, she was likely a daughter
of William de Braose of Bramber, and his wife Bertha of
Hereford. Chronologically this would fit, and further has
A. William de Mowbray, Mabel's son, would have been the
namesake of William de Braose (d. ca. 1192).
B. The introduction of the name Philip into the Mowbray
family, with a younger son of Mabel, would be explained,
as this was a traditional name in the de Braose
family. Mabel, as a daughter of William de Braose
(d. ca. 1192), would have had three near relations -
paternal grandfather, uncle and nephew, each named
Philip.
Should the suggested filiation be proven, it would add an
additional de Braose line of ancestry for the large number
of Mowbray descendants. Additional direct evidence concerning
this conjecture is being sought. Should anyone have additional
relevant documentation, suggestions, comment or criticism, that
would be welcome as always.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] CP X:372 (footnotes), sub _Mowbray_.
[2] A History of the County of Surrey: Volume 3 (1911),
'Parishes: Banstead', pp. 252-62. The footnotes to the
' 133 V.C.H. Surr. i, 321a, 282.
134 Red Book of Exch. (Rolls Ser.), 561.
135 Testa de Nevill (Rec. Com), 220, 221b.
136 Feet of F. Div. Co. 1 Edw. II, 11. '
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=42963
* John P. Ravilious
It looks like the de Mowbray connection to the old de Braose honours of Brembre and Gower can be traced to a much later date, through Aliva de Braose, wife of John de Mowbray living in 1298.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3678293?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3A3cba2ddf4d357c32dcc55fdc19eedbba&seq=14#page_scan_tab_contents

"The Despenser War in Glamorgan", Transactions of the Royal Historical Society, Vol. 9 (1915), page 34, by J. Conway Davies.

Don't know whether you've already seen this, but Colin Flight makes a good case that Mabel's family were the Patry family of Patrixbourne, Kent and La Lande Patry, near Flers. I just wish I could independently confirm the history of the estates he cites, but none of the sources I have been able to find go into such granular detail.

http://www.durobrivis.net/articles/landowners.pdf

http://www.durobrivis.net/survey/db-ke/09-baronies.pdf

Ben Filipowicz

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