Discussion:
Oliver Manwaring's Descent from King Edward III by way of Robert Holand, Esq.
(too old to reply)
Douglas Richardson
2010-10-26 16:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Dear Newsgroup ~

Below is my file account of the 17th Century immigrant, Oliver
Manwaring's descent from King Edward III by way of Robert Holand,
Esq. This account will appear shortly in the forthcoming 2nd editions
of my two books, Plantagenet Ancestry and Magna Carta Ancestry.

Special thanks go to thank John Blythe Dobson who proofread the later
generations and made several valuable suggestions and additions to
me. I need to acknowledge Gary Boyd Roberts who published part of
this line back in 1993 in his book, Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants,
which line was based largely on original research done by Robert
Behra, of Salt Lake City. I should also acknowledge the contribution
of the historian, Ralph A. Griffiths, whose research provided proof of
the parentage of Robert Holand, Esq. [Gen. 10 below].

Interested parties may wish to visit the helpful "Genealogy Page" of
John Blythe Dobson, which is available at the following weblinks:

http://library.uwinnipeg.ca/people/dobson/genealogy/index.html
http://library.uwinnipeg.ca/people/dobson/genealogy/ff/Mainwaring/Mainwaring.cfm

I've included all of my sources below. If you feel I've overlooked
something, please bring it to my attention here on the newsgroup or
contact me offlist. Thank you.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +

EDWARD III OF ENGLAND, King of England, married PHILIPPE OF HAINAULT.
JOHN OF GAUNT, Duke of Aquitaine and Lancaster, married BLANCHE OF
LANCASTER.
ELIZABETH [OF] LANCASTER, married JOHN HOLAND, K.G., Duke of Exeter,
Earl of Huntingdon [see EXETER 8].

9. JOHN HOLAND, K.G., Earl of Huntingdon, of the castle, town and
manor of Barnstaple, and manors of Dartington, Fremington, South
Molton, Torrington, etc., Devon, Stevington, Bedfordshire, Ardington,
Berkshire, Haslebury and Blagdon, Somerset, etc., Captain of Gournay,
Gisors, and Pontoise, Constable of the Tower of London, deputy Marshal
of England, Admiral of England, Ireland and Aquitaine, Lieutenant of
Aquitaine, Privy Councillor, younger son, born and baptized at
Dartington, Devon 29 March 1395 (or 1396). He was heir in 1400 to his
older brother, Richard Holand. He accompanied the King to France in
1415 and was present at the siege of Harfleur and the Battle of
Agincourt. He was a legatee in the 1421 will of his cousin, King
Henry V of England. He was taken prisoner at the Battle of Beaugé in
Anjou in 1421. He remained in captivity for five years, being
ransomed at a cost of 20,000 marks. On his return to England, he was
a significant owner of shipping, some of which traded into the
Mediterrranean. He married (1st) before 6 March 1426/7 ANNE STAFFORD,
widow of Edmund Mortimer (died 19 Jan. 1424/5), K.B., 5th Earl of
March, 7th Earl of Ulster, Lord Mortimer [see MORTIMER 12.i], and
daughter of Edmund Stafford, K.G., K.B., 5th Earl of Stafford, 6th
Lord Stafford (descendant of King Edward I), by Anne, Countess of
Buckingham, Hertford and Northampton, daughter of Thomas of Woodstock,
Duke of Gloucester (son of King Edward III) [see STAFFORD 10 for her
ancestry]. They had one son, Henry (or Harry), Knt. [Duke of Exeter,
Earl of Huntingdon and Ivry] [see YORK 10.i], and one daughter, Anne.
By an unknown mistress (or mistresses), he also had five illegitimate
sons, William, Knt., Thomas, Robert, Esq., John (clerk), and William
(clerk). He received the county of Ivry in France from John, Duke of
Bedford. His wife, Anne, died 20 (or 24) Sept. 1432 and was buried at
St. Katherine by the Tower. He married (2nd) by license dated 20 Jan.
1432/3 BEATRICE (or BEATRIZ) OF PORTUGAL, widow of Thomas Arundel,
K.G., Earl of Arundel and Surrey, Lord High Treasurer (died 13 or 14
Oct. 1415) [see FITZ ALAN 11.vii], and legitimated daughter of João I,
King of Portugal and the Algarve [see LANCASTER 8.i], by his mistress,
Inez Pires, daughter of Pedro Esteves. They had no issue. In 1439
Andrew Dautrey sued John and his wife, Beatrice, for the manors of
Aldesworth, Sussex. His wife, Beatrice, died at Bordeaux, France 23
Oct. 1439, and was buried at Arundel, Sussex by her 1st husband. He
married (3rd) ANNE MONTAGU, widow successively of Richard Hankford,
Knt. (died 8 Feb. 1430/1) [see HANKFORD 10] and Lewis John, Knt. (died
27 Oct. 1442) [see HANKFORD 10], and daughter of John Montagu, K.G.,
3rd Earl of Salisbury (descendant of King Edward I), by Maud, daughter
of Adam Francis, Knt. [see MONTAGU 9 for her ancestry]. They had no
issue. He was created Duke of Exeter 6 Jan. 1443/4. He presented to
the church of Blagdon, Somerset in 1446. SIR JOHN HOLAND, Duke of
Exeter, Earl of Huntingdon and Ivry, died 5 Aug. 1447. He left a
will dated 16 July 1447, proved 16 Feb. 1447/8, requesting burial in a
chapel at St. Katherine by the Tower, in a tomb ordained for his 1st
and current wives, both named Anne, his sister, Constance, and for
himself. His widow, Anne, was assigned dower 2 April 1454. Anne,
Duchess of Exeter, died 28 Nov. 1457, and was buried with him. She
left a will dated 20 April 1457, proved 15 May 1458 (P.C.C. 11
Stokton).

References:
Weever, Ancient Funerall Monuments (1631): 424–425. Rymer, Fœdera 9
(1727): 223 (John styled “kinsman” by King Henry V of England); 11
(1727): 8–9, 10–12, 49, 96 (instances of John styled “kinsman” by King
Henry VI of England). Nichols, Coll. of All the Wills (1780): 282–290
(will of John Holand, Duke of Exeter). Clutterbuck, Hist. & Antiqs.
of Hertford 1 (1815): 371 (Longespée-Zouch ped.). Nicolas, Testamenta
Vetusta 1 (1826): 255–256 (will of John Holand, Duke of Exeter).
Coll. Top. et Gen. 1 (1834): 80–90, 299. Nicolas, Procs. & Ordinances
of the Privy Council 6 (1837): 355–357 (Anne, Duchess of Exeter,
styled “king’s kinswoman” [consanguinee d’ci d’ni Regis] by King Henry
VI of England in 1454). Beltz, Mems. of the Order of the Garter
(1841): clvii. Gentleman’s Mag. n.s. 32 (1849): 491–493. Napier,
Swyncombe & Ewelme (1858): chart facing 323. Hutchins Hist. & Antiqs.
of Dorset 3 (1868): 291 (Montagu ped.). Vis. of Devon 1620 (H.S.P. 6)
(1872): 345–347 (Holland ped.: “John Holland D. of Exeter = d. of the
E. of Stafford”). Wright, Feudal Manuals of English Hist. (1872): 151–
152. Harvey, Hist. & Antiqs. of the Hundred of Willey (1872–8): opp.
146 (Quincy ped.). Hardy, Syllabus (in English) of the Docs. Rel.
England & Other Kingdoms 2 (1873): 641. Rogers, Antient Sepulchral
Effigies (1877): 224–226. Burke, Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited &
Extinct Peerages (1883): 280–281 (sub Holland). Gibbons, Early
Lincoln Wills (1888): 167 (will of John [Holand], Duke of Exeter).
Weaver, Somerset Incumbents (1889): 28. Aveling, Heraldry (1890): 392
(engraving of seal of Beatrice of Portugal, Countess of Arundel &
Surrey). Birch, Cat. Seals in the British Museum 3 (1894): 108 (seal
of John Holand, Earl of Huntingdon, Captain of Gournay and Gisors
dated 1431 — Octagonal: a shield of arms: ENGLAND within a bordure of
FRANCE. Suspended from a tree. Cabled bordure), 108 (seal of John
Holand, Duke of Exeter, Earl of Huntingdon & Ivory dated 1445 — A
shield of arms, couché: three lions passant guardant in pale, ENGLAND,
within a bordure of fleurs-de-lis, FRANCE. Crest on a helmet,
ornamental mantling, and chapeau ermine, a lion statant guardant,
collared, and crowned. Supporters, two heraldic antelopes, collared,
chained, and ringed. In the background, on each side, his badge, a
fire beacon in flames. Legend on a scroll: “Sigillum : ioh’is :
ducis : exonie : * * comitis : huntyngdon : & : yveri : ac : d’ni de
Sparre.”). Wiltshire Notes & Queries 4 (1902–4): 481–493. C.P.R.
1401–1405 (1905): 324 (John styled “king’s kinsman”). Wrottesley,
Peds. from the Plea Rolls (1905): 364–365. Rpt. on MSS in Various
Colls. 4 (Hist. MSS Comm. 55) (1907): 82, 84. Le Cacheux, Actes de la
Chancellerie d’Henri VI Concernant la Normandie sous la Domination
Anglaise 2 (1908): 296–298 ([John Holand], Earl of Huntingdon styled
“tres chier et feal cousin” by King Henry VI of England in 1434). VCH
Hertford 2 (1908): 201–203. C.P.R. 1441–1446 (1908): 230 (John styled
“king’s kinsman”). D.N.B. 13 (1909): 1020–1022 (biog. of Edmund
Mortimer). C.P.R. 1416–1422 (1911): 11, 112 (instances of John, earl
of Huntyngdon styled “king’s kinsman”). VCH Bedford 3 (1912): 100–
104. VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 269–270. C.P. 5 (1926): 205–211 (sub
Exeter); 6 (1926): 654 (sub Huntingdon). Harvey et al., Vis. of the
North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 49–50 (Montagu ped.: “Anne
[Montagu] ducesse of Excestre”). Beckington, Reg. of Thomas Bekynton
Bishop of Bath & Wells 1 (Somerset Rec. Soc. 49) (1934): 70, 111,
153. Coat of Arms 7 (1962): 164–169 (arms of John as Earl of
Huntingdon: Quarterly 1 and 4, England and a label of France, 2 and 3,
England and a bordure argent flory gold; his arms of Duke of Exeter:
England and a bordure of France). Vale, English Gascony 1399–1453
(1970). McFarlane, Nobility of Later Medieval England (1973): 32.
Ancient Deeds — Ser. BB (List & Index Soc. 137) (1977): 100. Ellis,
Cat. Seals in the P.R.O. 1 (1978): 33 (seal of John Holand, Earl of
Huntingdon dated 1440 — A shield of arms, couché: three lions passant
gardant, within a bordure semé-de-lys [HOLAND]; helm above with
mantling and crest: on a cap of estate a crowned and collared leopard
standing; ears of wheat in the field). English Hist. Rev. 96 (1981):
79–102 ([John Holand], Earl of Huntingdon, styled
“kinsman” [consanguineo] by King Henry V of England). Williams,
England in the 15th Cent. (1987): 187–198. Hicks, Profit, Piety &
Professions in Later Medieval England (1990): 103–118. Austin,
Ancient Fams. in the British Isles (1991): 66–84. Cal. IPM 20 (1995):
187–189; 23 (2004): 227. Leese, Blood Royal (1996): 170–181, 201–
219. Catto “Chron. of John Somer,” in Camden Misc. 34 (Camden Soc.
5th Ser. 10) (1997): 277 (birth date of John Holand). TAG 76 (2001):
46–49. Coss & Keen Heraldry, Pageantry & Social Display in Medieval
England (2002): 143–167. Will of John Holand, Duke of Exeter, Lambeth
Regs., Stafford, ff. 160–161 (FHL Microfilm 1473364) (names his
“brother [Humphrey Stafford] Duke of Buckingham” and his “cousin
[Richard] Duke of York”).

10. ROBERT HOLAND, Esq., styled “Bastard of Exeter,” illegitimate son
by an unknown mistress. He married MARGARET _____. They had two
daughters, Jane and Elizabeth (wife of John Reskymer). He was among
those assembled by his half-brother, Henry Holand, Duke of Exeter in
1454 to take part in an insurrection in Yorkshire. Following the
collapse of the insurrection, Robert and his brother, Duke Henry,
traveled secretly to London and sought sanctuary at Westminster
Abbey. They were led out of abbey and arrested by Richard, Duke of
York 23 July 1454. In 1458 he was granted the manors of Manerbier and
Penally, Pembrokeshire by his half-brother, Henry Holand, Duke of
Exeter, both of which manors are named in their father’s 1447 will,
being then held by feoffees. Presumably he is one of the two bastard
sons of the Duke of Exeter slain at the Battle of Towton 29 March
1461. In 1463 William Willoughby, Esq., of Boston, Lincolnshire was
pardoned for failure to appear before the justices of the late King’s
[Henry VI] bench touching a debt of £20 formerly owed to “Robert the
Bastard of Exeter.”

References:
Sandford, Gen. Hist. of the Kings of England (1677): 219. Collins,
English Baronetage 2 (1741): 91 (sub Trelawney). Polsue, Complete
Parochial Hist. of the County of Cornwall 4 (1872): chart foll. 352.
Vis. of Devon 1620 (H.S.P. 6) (1872): 161 (Kendall ped.) (Holand arms
quartered by Kendall fam.: Three lions passant guardant within
bordure, over all a bar sinister). Boase & Courtney, Bibliotheca
Cornubiensis 2 (1878): 562 (re. John Reskymer). Vivian, Vis. of
Cornwall (1887): 258–259, 396, 475. C.P.R. 1461–1467 (1897): 255.
Law, Royal Gallery of Hampton Court (1898): 315. Notes & Queries 9th
Ser. 12 (1903): 276. Kingsford, Chronicles of London (1905): 164.
Rose-Troup, Western Rebellion of 1549 (1913): 100–101. Scofield, Life
& Reign of Edward IV (1923). Storey, End of the House of Lancaster
(1966): 142–149. NEHGR 121 (1967): 185. Griffiths, King & Country
(1991): 347–348, 352, 363. TAG 76 (2001): 46–49.

11. JANE HOLAND, daughter and co-heiress. She married (1st) JOHN
KENDALL (or KENDALE), of Treworgy (in Duloe) and Pelyn (in Lanlivery),
Cornwall, son of Richard Kendall, of Treworgy (in Duloe), Lanrest, and
Cornwall, by Jane, daughter of Richard Penpons. They had three sons,
Edmund, William, and Walter, Esq. His widow, Jane, married (2nd) (as
his 2nd wife) JOHN TRELAWNEY, Knt. They had one daughter, Jane (wife
of John Wideslade/Wynslade).

References:
Wotton, English Baronetage 2 (1741): 87–98 (sub Trelawney). Betham,
Baronetage of England 1 (1801): 324–333 (sub Trelawny). Lysons &
Lysons, Magna Britannia 3 (1814): 76–81, 98–118, 167–185. Polsue,
Complete Parochial Hist. of the County of Cornwall 3 (1870): chart
facing 31; 4 (1872): chart foll. 352. Vivian, Vis. of Cornwall
(1887): 258–261 (Kendall ped.) (Kendall arms: Argent a chevron between
three dolphins naiant, enbowed, Sable), 475 (Trelawny ped.). List of
Early Chancery Procs. 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 16) (1903): 284–285; 4
(PRO Lists and Indexes 29) (1908): 88. Rose-Troup, Western Rebellion
of 1549 (1913): 100–101. Chynoweth, Tudor Cornwall (2002): 223
(chart).

12. WALTER KENDALL, Esq., of Pelyn (in Lanlivery), Cornwall, Mayor of
Lostwithiel, Cornwall, 3rd son. He married before 1511 JANE ROUS,
daughter of John Rous, of Modbury, Devon. They had two sons, Nicholas
and Lawrence, Esq., and two daughters, Constance (wife of _____ Bryant
and Thomas Littleton) and Thomasine. In the period, 1504–15, Robert
Wymond sued Walter Kendall and Jane, his wife in Chancery regarding
the detention of deeds relating to a messuage and land in Treffry,
Cornwall. In the period, 1515–8, he sued William Calf and Margaret
his wife in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating to a
messuage and land in Westlawe, Cornwall. In 1516 Thomas Colyns, Prior
of Tywardreath granted him various messuages and a mill in Redwyth (in
Lanlivery), Cornwall. The same year he was appointed attorney to
deliver seisin for various messuages and tenements in the towns of
Lostwithiel and Tywardreath, Cornwall to Thomas Grevys. In the
period, 1518–29, he sued Thomas Colyn, Prior of Tywardreath, and
Nicholas Enys, Gent., in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds
relating to a tenement and land at Penlene in Tywardreath, Cornwall.
In 1520 the Prior of Tywardreath granted him the right of the next
presentation of the vicarage of the parish of Treneglos, Cornwall. In
1522 he resolved a dispute with Thomas Colyns, Prior of Tywardreath
regarding dispute a right of way for animals, carts, and all carriages
across lands of the said Walter in Penleen called the More Parke (in
Tywardreath), Cornwall. The same year he gave bond to Thomas, Prior
of Tywardreath that he and Joan his wife would make all payments
stipulated in an indenture for the farm of the garb of Lanlivery
parish. In 1524 the same prior granted him land called le Gomm (in
Lanlivery), Cornwall. In 1525 the Prior of Tywardreath granted him
the next presentation to the vicarage of Tywardreath, Cornwall. In
1525 the same prior granted him various messuages, etc, in Lanlivery
and le Forthynglond (in Lanlivery), Cornwall. The same year Thomas,
Prior of Tywardreath, granted him to farm all their tithe corn of
wheat, oats, barley, rye, beans, and peas from the parishes of
Tywardreath, St. Sampson, and St. Blazey, Cornwall, except for the
tithes of the barton of Tywardreath, for a term of 20 years, paying
£23 yearly. He was taxed at Lanlivery, Cornwall for subsidies in 1525
and 1543, and for the benevolence in 1545. In 1532 the same prior
granted him the right of the next presentation to the church of St.
Barrus of Fowy, Cornwall; the following year he and Henry Courtenay,
Marquis of Exeter, were similarly granted the right of presentation to
the vicarage of Fowey, Cornwall by the same prior. In 1535 the same
prior granted him and his son, Lawrence, to farm all the tithe corn,
as well of wheat, oats, barley, rye, etc. from the parishes of
Treneglos and Warbstow, Cornwall belonging to the prior and convent
for term of 60 years, paying £8 yearly. The same year the same prior
granted him and his son, Nicholas, to farm all the tithe corn, as well
of wheat, oats, barley, rye, peas, etc., from the parishes of
Tywardreath, St. Sampson, St. Blazey, and Lanlivery, Cornwall, except
the tithe corn of the barton of Tywardreth for a term of 60 years,
paying £36 yearly. In 1539 Walter and his older brother, William
Kendall, were implicated in the conspiracy of Henry Courtenay, Marquis
of Exeter; Walter appears to have been cleared, but William was
executed for treason and attainted. Walter and his son, Nicholas,
were legatees in the 1539 will of Stephen Knight, vicar of Lanlivery,
Cornwall. In 1543 Richard Edgecombe, Knt. granted him lands in
Huntyngton, Cornwall, lying by the water running from the mill called
Pelyn Mill. In 1546 he quitclaimed to John Connock land in Menheniot,
Cornwall. WALTER KENDALL, Esq., died 10 July 1547, and was buried in
the chancel of Lanlivery, Cornwall.

References:
Lysons & Lysons, Magna Britannia 3 (1814): 98–118, 167–185. Polsue,
Complete Parochial Hist. of the County of Cornwall 3 (1870): 22, chart
facing 31; 4 (1872): chart foll. 352. Letters & Papers… Henry VIII
4(1) (1870): 237, 500; 9 (1886): 384; 10 (1887): 417; 14(1) (1894):
233–234; 15 (1896): 469; 20(1) (1905): 318. Vivian, Vis. of Cornwall
(1887): 258–261 (Kendall ped.). Cox, Cornwall (1912): 140–141.
Snell, Suppression of the Religious Foundations of Devon & Cornwall‎
(1967): 49. Stoate, Cornwall Subsidies in 1524, 1543 & 1545 (1985):
46, 153, 161. Street, Gen. of the Rouses of Devon (2002): 30.
Cornwall Rec. Office: Arundell, Tywardreath Priory Archive, ART/1/5;
ART/1/16; ART/1/18; ART/1/19; ART/1/53; ART/1/54; ART/1/63; ART/3/1/2;
ART/3/13; ART/3/14; ART/3/40; ART/3/42; ART/3/43; ART/3/44; ART/3/45;
ART/3/46; ART/3/47; ART/3/49; ART/3/63; ART/3/66; ART/3/110; ART/
3/118; ART/3/119; ART/3/120; ART/3/130; ART/3/131; ART/3/133; ART/
3/134 (available at www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). Cornwall Rec.
Office: Edgcumbe of Cotehele & Mount Edgcumbe, ME/207 (available at
www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). Cornwall Rec. Office: Recs. of
Connock Marshall Fam., CM/282 (available at www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).
Royal Institution of Cornwall: Kendall Archives (Additional), Hendkend/
23 (available at www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). National Archives,
C 1/179/50; C 1/423/8; C 1/531/13 (available at
www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).

13. LAWRENCE KENDALL, Esq., of Withiel, Cornwall, 2nd son. In 1532
the Prior of Tywardreath granted him of an annuity of 20s. issuing
from the priory’s lands in Cornwall and sufficient food and drink
within their monastery, and an apartment in a suitable chamber within
the monastery “when he shall wish to accept it.” In 1536, at the
dissolution of Tywardreath Priory, he was granted a pension of £6 and
left religious life. He married shortly after 20 Sept. 1537 (date of
lease) KATHERINE MUNDAY (or MONDAY), daughter of John Munday, of
Rialton (in St. Columb Minor), Cornwall, barrister of the Middle
Temple, by Joan, daughter of J_____ Man. They had one son, Nicholas,
and one daughter, Mary. In 1537 he and his intended wife, Katherine,
were granted a 99 year lease of the manor and the advowson of the
church of Withiel, Cornwall by the Prior and convent of Bodmin. He
and his wife, Katherine, were legatees in the 1549 will of her uncle,
Thomas Munday alias Wandesworth, late Prior of Bodmin. In the period,
1547–53, Edward Benett and John Rycharde and Jane his wife sued
Lawrence Kendall, Nicholas Kendall, Edward Coles, and Thomas Barde in
the Court of Star Chamber complaining that the defendants made
forcible entry on lands and illegally distrained cattle, etc. at
Withiel, Cornwall. In the same period, John Richard and Edward Benet
sued Lawrence Kendall and others in the same court, alleging the
defendants made forcible entry of lands, and done destruction of
wheat, etc. at Withiel, Cornwall. LAWRENCE KENDALL, Esq., was living
in 1555.

References:
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 4 (1823): 655 (annuity of £6 for
“Laurent. Kendall”). Polsue, Complete Parochial Hist. of the County
of Cornwall 4 (1872): Adds. & Corrections, ii–iii; chart foll. 352.
St. George & Lennard, Vis. of Cornwall 1620 (H.S.P. 9) (1874): 151–153
(Munday ped.). Jour. of the Royal Institution of Cornwall‎ No. 16
(Oct. 1874): 349–357 (will of Thomas Munday). Maclean, Hist. of Trigg
Minor 1 (1876): 136, 269. Vivian, Vis. of Cornwall (1887): 258–261
(Kendall ped.), 337–338 (Munday ped.). English Reports 124 (Common
Pleas II) (1912): 881–890. Williams, Ancient Westcountry Fams. &
their Armorial Bearings 1 (1916): 160–162 (re. Munday fam.).
Baskerville, English Monks & the Suppression of the Monasteries‎
(1937): 197–200. Snell, Suppression of the Religious Foundations of
Devon & Cornwall‎ (1967): 49, 77. Rowse, Tudor Cornwall (1969): 180,
208, 210-211. Chynoweth, Tudor Cornwall (2002): 44. Cornwall Rec.
Office: Arundell, Tywardreath Priory Archive, ART/3/118; ART/3/153
(available at www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). National Archives,
STAC 3/5/35; STAC 3/7/78 (available at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).

14. MARY KENDALL, married RICHARD MOYLE, Gent., of St. Austell,
Cornwall, son and heir of Richard Moyle, of St. Austell, Cornwall, by
Anne, daughter of William Harry Watt, of Luxulyan, Cornwall. They had
one son, Richard, Gent., and two daughters, Elizabeth and Loveday.
His wife, Mary, was buried at St. Austell, Cornwall 5 Dec. 1573.
RICHARD MOYLE, Gent., was buried at St. Austell, Cornwall 17 Aug.
1589.

References:
Polsue, Complete Parochial Hist. of the County of Cornwall 4 (1872):
chart foll. 352. St. George & Lennard, Vis. of Cornwall 1620 (H.S.P.
9) (1874): 149 (Moyell ped.: “Rich. Moyle of St. Austle in Cornw. =
Mary Da. of Lawrence Kendall.”). Maclean, Hist. of Trigg Minor 1
(1876): 319 (chart). Vivian, Vis. of Cornwall (1887): 258–261
(Kendall ped.), 336–337 (Moyle ped.) (Moyle arms: Gules a mule passant
Argent in chief a mullet for difference). Grylls Par. Regs. of Saint
Austell, Cornwall (1941): 295, 304. Stoate, Cornwall Subsidies in
1524, 1543 & 1545 (1985): 50, 161. Chynoweth, Tudor Cornwall (2002):
58.

15. LOVEDAY MOYLE, married before 6 March 1594/5 (date of baptism of
1st child) (as his 1st wife) HENRY ASHE (or AISHE, AYSHE), Esq., of
Sowton, Devon, son and heir of Richard Ashe, of Sowton, Devon, by
Prudence, daughter of John Rudgley, of London. They had one son,
Richard, Gent., and three daughters, Anne, Prudence, and Phebe. His
wife, Loveday, was buried at Sowton, Devon 27 Jan. 1628/9. He married
(2nd) at Sowton, Devon 12 May 1629 ELIZABETH _____, widow of [Mr.]
Robert Campbell (died 1621), Rector of Sowton, Devon. HENRY ASHE,
Esq., was buried at Sowton, Devon 8 June 1640.

References:
Burke, Hist. of the Commoners 2 (1836): 578–581 (sub Ashe). Oliver,
Eccl. Antiqs. in Devon 2 (1840): 40, 45 (“Robert Campbell was admitted
21 August, 1617…. This Rector was buried 25 September, 1621. His
widow Elizabeth received letters of administration to his effects, 3
Oct. 1621. On 12 May, 1629, she married Henry Ashe, Esq.”).
Westcote, View of Devonshire (1845): 633 (re. Esse/Ash fam.) (Ash
arms: Argent, two chevrons sable). Polsue, Complete Parochial Hist.
of the County of Cornwall 4 (1872): chart foll. 352. Vis. of Devon
1620 (H.S.P. 6) (1872): 14 (Aysshe ped.: “Henry Esshe of Clist Fomeson
= Loveday d. of Richard Moyle of St. Augustines co. Cornwall”) (Aysshe
arms: Argent, two chevronells sable). St. George & Lennard, Vis. of
Cornwall 1620 (H.S.P. 9) (1874): 149 (Moyell ped.: “Lowdy [Moyle] uxor
Hen. Ashe of Sowton in Devon.”). Vivian, Vis. of Cornwall (1887): 336–
337 (Moyle ped.). Vivian, Vis. of Devon (1895): 25 (Ashe ped.) (Ashe
arms: Argent two chevrons sable). Grylls, Parish Regs. of Saint
Austell, Cornwall (1941): 295, 304. Parish Regs. of Sowton, Devon
[FHL Microfilm 917531]. Registered will of Richard Moyle, Gent., of
St. Austell, Cornwall proved 1654 (P.C.C. 144 Alchin) (mentions the
grandchildren of his late sister, Lowdye Ash).

16. PRUDENCE ASHE (or AISHE, AYSHE), baptized at Sowton, Devon 23 Dec.
1599. She married before 27 Feb. 1619/20 (date of baptism of 1st
child) OLIVER MAINWARING, Gent., of Exeter, Sowton, and Dawlish,
Devon. He was born about 1587 (aged 79 in 1666). They had several
sons, including Christopher, Esse, Oliver, William, and Richard, and
three daughters, Anne, Prudence, and Loveday. He was heir in 1634 to
his uncle, Christopher Mainwaring. His wife, Prudence, was buried at
Dawlish, Devon 1 Oct. 1643. OLIVER MAINWARING, Gent., died 14 March
1672/3, and was buried at Dawlish, Devon.

References:
Burke, Hist. of the Commoners 2 (1836): 578–581 (sub Ashe). Oliver,
Eccl. Antiqs. in Devon 2 (1840): 40. Westcote View of Devonshire
(1845): 633 (re. Esse/Ash fam.). Vivian, Vis. of Devon (1895): 25
(Ashe ped.). Devon Notes & Queries 5 (1909): 50–62 (cites Harleian
MSS 1535: f.347; 1538: f.315 [Manwaring ped.]). NEHGR 79 (1925): 110–
111. TAG 41 (1965): 225–227. Sellman, Dawlish, Devon Edited
Transcripts of the Parish Regs. to 1837 (1977) [includes burial of
Richard Maynwaringe in 1643, presumably son of Oliver and Prudence; if
so, this can not be the Richard “Mannering” who appears on the 1698
Census of Hempstead, Long Island, as suggested in TAG 41 (1965): 225–
227]. Parish Regs. of Sowton, Devon [FHL Microfilm 917531].

17. OLIVER MANWARING, seaman and mariner, younger son, allegedly
baptized at Dawlish, Devon 16 March 1633/4. He immigrated to New
England, where he settled at New London, Connecticut. He married
before 1662 (date of deed) HANNAH RAYMOND, daughter of Richard
Raymond, of Salem, Mass., and Norwalk and Saybrook, Connecticut, by
his wife, Judith. She was baptized at Salem, Massachusetts 12 Feb.
1642/3. They had two sons, Richard and Oliver, and eight daughters,
Hannah, Elizabeth (wife of Peter Harris), Prudence (wife of John
Beckwith), Love (wife of John Richards), Judith (wife of Simon Ray),
Bathsheba, Anne (wife of Jeremiah Wilson), and Mercy (wife of Jonathan
Palmer). He purchased his houselot of 11 acres in New London,
Connecticut 3 Nov. 1664. His wife, Hannah, died at New London,
Connecticut 18 Dec. 1717. OLIVER MANWARING died at New London,
Connecticut 3 Nov. 1723, aged 89. He left a will proved 19 Dec. 1723,
which named his “nephew Oliver Manwaring in England,” evidently the
son of his brother, Esse Manwaring, of Dawlish, Devon, which Oliver
was baptized at Dawlish, Devon 28 July 1663, and buried there 14 Feb.
1740/1.

References:
Pope, Pioneers of Massachusetts (1900): 379 (biog. of Richard
Raymond). NYGBR 51 (1920): 307–327. NEHGR 79 (1925): 110–111; 82
(1928): 153, 162. TAG 41 (1965): 225–227. Sellman, Dawlish, Devon
Edited Transcripts of the Parish Regs. to 1837 (1977). [Note: The
modern transcript of the Dawlish registers does not include a baptism
for the immigrant, Oliver Manwaring, for either the year 1633 or
1634].
taf
2010-10-27 03:41:32 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 26, 9:40 am, Douglas Richardson <***@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Below is my file account of the 17th Century immigrant, Oliver
> Manwaring's descent from King Edward III by way of Robert Holand,
> Esq.  This account will appear shortly in the forthcoming 2nd editions
> of my two books, Plantagenet Ancestry and Magna Carta Ancestry.
>
> Special thanks go to thank John Blythe Dobson who proofread the later
> generations and made several valuable suggestions and additions to
> me.  I need to acknowledge Gary Boyd Roberts who published part of
> this line back in 1993 in his book, Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants,
> which line was based largely on original research done by Robert
> Behra, of Salt Lake City.  I should also acknowledge the contribution
> of the historian, Ralph A. Griffiths, whose research provided proof of
> the parentage of Robert Holand, Esq. [Gen. 10 below].

Your act of intentionally ignoring the paper that actually brought to
the public eye this exact line a decade ago is noted and recognized
for the small-mindedness it again demonstrates. Still, I would just
as soon you not perpetuate a couple of glaring problems.

I told you (back when you were claiming that Thomas Holand, Bastard of
Exeter, was beheaded and then perhaps died at Towton several weeks
later) that Robert did not die at Towton. You obviously saw my
comment, as you no longer claim Thomas to have been a headless
warrior, but why would you want to go on speculating that Robert did,
given that you lack any evidence that this was the case. I mean, even
if you think I might not be telling the truth (maybe I was fibbing
about Thomas too and he did fight headless), why would you want to
risk being found in error just to present unfounded speculation.
After all, what evidence do you have that any Bastard of Exeter died
at Towton? Do you even know the origin of that claim? Do you know
that the source that makes that claim (one that you cite, so I
shouldn't be telling you something you don't already know) also claims
that Edmund (sic - or was it Edward, I don't remember) Duke of Exeter
died in the battle too? And this source, that doesn't know the name
of the Duke of Exeter and doesn't know that he survived the battle is
to be trusted when it comes to his illegitimate brothers? Of the
Bastards involved in the struggles, Thomas and Robert were killed
before the battle, and William apparently survived it, so NONE of the
known bastard brothers of the Duke of Exeter died at Towton. Even
without knowing my sources, any speculation to the contrary on your
part is unwise.

William Harry Watt? Really? Exactly how common were middle names in
the 16th century? I know this is what your sources say, but did you
consider questioning their reliability on this?

While we are at it, do you actually have contemporary evidence that
Walter Kendall was son of John? I know this is what the pedigrees
say, but these are the same pedigrees that say Robert Holand was son
of Duke Henry. Maybe you have consulted the 1530 Visitation of
Cornwall?

taf
Kevin Bradford
2010-10-27 04:29:05 UTC
Permalink
That is from the Jenkyn pedigree in the 1620 Cornwall Visitation. It's available in Google Books for anyone to check.
The name "William Harry Watt" is given exactly as printed (p. 103), but the explanation I've read, outside this source, is that "Harry" is a patronymic. Regardless, such a claim is a moot point, because when you read the Visitation, the Moyle pedigree only extends to Richard, husband of Mary Kendall. No parents are indicated.
The Jenkyn pedigree contains a daughter, Amy Watt, but she is not assigned a marriage.
The pedigrees appear to be misinterpreted in the information given by Mr. Richardson.
Kevin
> From: ***@clearwire.net
> Subject: Re: Oliver Manwaring's Descent from King Edward III by way of Robert Holand, Esq.
> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 20:41:32 -0700
> To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
>

>
> William Harry Watt? Really? Exactly how common were middle names in
> the 16th century? I know this is what your sources say, but did you
> consider questioning their reliability on this?

> taf
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Douglas Richardson
2010-10-27 05:14:11 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 26, 10:29 pm, Kevin Bradford <***@hotmail.com>
wrote:

< The name "William Harry Watt" is given exactly as printed (p. 103),
but the explanation I've read, outside this source, is that "Harry" is
a patronymic.
< Kevin

William Harry Watt is named in contemporary subsidy rolls for
Cornwall. So yes he existed.

DR
taf
2010-10-27 05:26:10 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 26, 10:14 pm, Douglas Richardson <***@msn.com> wrote:
> On Oct 26, 10:29 pm, Kevin Bradford <***@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> < The name "William Harry Watt" is given exactly as printed (p. 103),
> but the explanation I've read, outside this source, is that "Harry" is
> a patronymic.
> < Kevin
>
> William Harry Watt is named in contemporary subsidy rolls for
> Cornwall.  So yes he existed.

And apparently as William Harry in other records, so is Watt really
the surname?

taf
taf
2010-10-27 05:36:55 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 26, 10:26 pm, taf <***@clearwire.net> wrote:
> On Oct 26, 10:14 pm, Douglas Richardson <***@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 26, 10:29 pm, Kevin Bradford <***@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > < The name "William Harry Watt" is given exactly as printed (p. 103),
> > but the explanation I've read, outside this source, is that "Harry" is
> > a patronymic.
> > < Kevin
>
> > William Harry Watt is named in contemporary subsidy rolls for
> > Cornwall.  So yes he existed.
>
> And apparently as William Harry in other records, so is Watt really
> the surname?

Just found a web reference to him in 1547 being William Harry alias
Watt. It looks like it is not as simple as it is being made out.

taf
taf
2010-10-27 06:14:54 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 26, 9:29 pm, Kevin Bradford <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> That is from the Jenkyn pedigree in the 1620 Cornwall Visitation.  It's available in Google Books for anyone to check.
> The name "William Harry Watt" is given exactly as printed (p. 103), but the explanation I've read, outside this source, is that "Harry" is a patronymic.  Regardless, such a claim is a moot point, because when you read the Visitation, the Moyle pedigree only extends to Richard, husband of Mary Kendall.  No parents are indicated.  
> The Jenkyn pedigree contains a daughter, Amy Watt, but she is not assigned a marriage.
> The pedigrees appear to be misinterpreted in the information given by Mr. Richardson.

No. Mr. Richardson has it correctly from his source, he is just taking
it from somewhere else. I have seen it somewhere, I think it was
Vivian (don't remember for certain) - I just never trusted it.

I actually had never noticed this is the Jenkin pedigree, even though
I had looked at the Moyle portion of it. Something else I just noticed
though. The 1620 compiler didn't know what to make of this name.
Just about every other reference is to X, daughter and coheiress of
name surname. Here she is just daughter and coheiress of Harry, like
the compiler couldn't figure out what was given name and what surname,
and decided to emulate Mickey Mantle*.

*famous baseball anecdote. Hall of Famer Mantle arrived at the
ballpark so hungover he couldn't play, but at the end of the game the
manager was forced to use him, so they threw him in the shower, pulled
on his uniform and sent him stumbling out to home plate, where he
proceeded to hit a home run. Asked how he had managed to even hit the
ball given his state, he said he just aimed for the middle one.

taf
Kevin Bradford
2010-10-27 14:20:44 UTC
Permalink
That's apropo in this case.

On the face of it, the 1620 Visitation is not sufficient to make any kind of a claim that a "William Harry Watt" was the father of an Ann Watt who married a Richard Kendall, and that Richard Kendall was the father of another Richard who d. in 1589 and married into the proposed royal line. As you suggest, one would have to have some other source to even begin to draw the lines together as this one Visitation doesn't lend itself to any conclusions. The additional problem of Ann vs. Amy add a further layer of doubt.

In any case, William Harry Watt, whoever he was, is not part of the proposed Mainwaring royal line (which is still unproven without verifiable contemporary evidence of the Exeter linkage). At most, the Watts family may be potential in-laws.

Kevin

> From: ***@clearwire.net
> Subject: Re: Oliver Manwaring's Descent from King Edward III by way of Robert Holand, Esq.
> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:14:54 -0700
> To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
>
> On Oct 26, 9:29 pm, Kevin Bradford <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > That is from the Jenkyn pedigree in the 1620 Cornwall Visitation. It's available in Google Books for anyone to check.
> > The name "William Harry Watt" is given exactly as printed (p. 103), but the explanation I've read, outside this source, is that "Harry" is a patronymic. Regardless, such a claim is a moot point, because when you read the Visitation, the Moyle pedigree only extends to Richard, husband of Mary Kendall. No parents are indicated.
> > The Jenkyn pedigree contains a daughter, Amy Watt, but she is not assigned a marriage.
> > The pedigrees appear to be misinterpreted in the information given by Mr. Richardson.
>
> No. Mr. Richardson has it correctly from his source, he is just taking
> it from somewhere else. I have seen it somewhere, I think it was
> Vivian (don't remember for certain) - I just never trusted it.
>
> I actually had never noticed this is the Jenkin pedigree, even though
> I had looked at the Moyle portion of it. Something else I just noticed
> though. The 1620 compiler didn't know what to make of this name.
> Just about every other reference is to X, daughter and coheiress of
> name surname. Here she is just daughter and coheiress of Harry, like
> the compiler couldn't figure out what was given name and what surname,
> and decided to emulate Mickey Mantle*.
>
> *famous baseball anecdote. Hall of Famer Mantle arrived at the
> ballpark so hungover he couldn't play, but at the end of the game the
> manager was forced to use him, so they threw him in the shower, pulled
> on his uniform and sent him stumbling out to home plate, where he
> proceeded to hit a home run. Asked how he had managed to even hit the
> ball given his state, he said he just aimed for the middle one.
>
> taf
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
taf
2010-10-27 15:22:57 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 27, 7:20 am, Kevin Bradford <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> That's apropo in this case.
>
> On the face of it, the 1620 Visitation is not sufficient to make any kind of a claim that a "William Harry Watt" was the father of an Ann Watt who married a Richard Kendall, and that Richard Kendall was the father of another Richard who d. in 1589 and married into the proposed royal line.  As you suggest, one would have to have some other source to even begin to draw the lines together as this one Visitation doesn't lend itself to any conclusions.  The additional problem of Ann vs. Amy add a further layer of doubt.
>

I guessed right - it is from Vivian, and he cited Harl. MS. 1079 and
College of Arms. As to Amy/Anne, they are not as different as they
look, and this wouldn't be the first time: as written, Amie and Anne
would differ by as little as a dot.

> In any case, William Harry Watt, whoever he was, is not part of the proposed Mainwaring royal line (which is still unproven without verifiable contemporary evidence of the Exeter linkage).  At most, the Watts family may be potential in-laws.  
>

But an ancestor to immigrant Manwaring none the less.

taf
Kevin Bradford
2010-10-27 14:29:49 UTC
Permalink
Mea culpa...TYPO:

read MOYLE for KENDALL...

K

> From: ***@hotmail.com
> To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
> Subject: RE: Oliver Manwaring's Descent from King Edward III by way of Robert Holand, Esq.
> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 10:20:44 -0400
>
>
> That's apropo in this case.
>
> On the face of it, the 1620 Visitation is not sufficient to make any kind of a claim that a "William Harry Watt" was the father of an Ann Watt who married a Richard Kendall, and that Richard Kendall was the father of another Richard who d. in 1589 and married into the proposed royal line. As you suggest, one would have to have some other source to even begin to draw the lines together as this one Visitation doesn't lend itself to any conclusions. The additional problem of Ann vs. Amy add a further layer of doubt.
>
> In any case, William Harry Watt, whoever he was, is not part of the proposed Mainwaring royal line (which is still unproven without verifiable contemporary evidence of the Exeter linkage). At most, the Watts family may be potential in-laws.
>
> Kevin
>
> > From: ***@clearwire.net
> > Subject: Re: Oliver Manwaring's Descent from King Edward III by way of Robert Holand, Esq.
> > Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:14:54 -0700
> > To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
> >
> > On Oct 26, 9:29 pm, Kevin Bradford <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > That is from the Jenkyn pedigree in the 1620 Cornwall Visitation. It's available in Google Books for anyone to check.
> > > The name "William Harry Watt" is given exactly as printed (p. 103), but the explanation I've read, outside this source, is that "Harry" is a patronymic. Regardless, such a claim is a moot point, because when you read the Visitation, the Moyle pedigree only extends to Richard, husband of Mary Kendall. No parents are indicated.
> > > The Jenkyn pedigree contains a daughter, Amy Watt, but she is not assigned a marriage.
> > > The pedigrees appear to be misinterpreted in the information given by Mr. Richardson.
> >
> > No. Mr. Richardson has it correctly from his source, he is just taking
> > it from somewhere else. I have seen it somewhere, I think it was
> > Vivian (don't remember for certain) - I just never trusted it.
> >
> > I actually had never noticed this is the Jenkin pedigree, even though
> > I had looked at the Moyle portion of it. Something else I just noticed
> > though. The 1620 compiler didn't know what to make of this name.
> > Just about every other reference is to X, daughter and coheiress of
> > name surname. Here she is just daughter and coheiress of Harry, like
> > the compiler couldn't figure out what was given name and what surname,
> > and decided to emulate Mickey Mantle*.
> >
> > *famous baseball anecdote. Hall of Famer Mantle arrived at the
> > ballpark so hungover he couldn't play, but at the end of the game the
> > manager was forced to use him, so they threw him in the shower, pulled
> > on his uniform and sent him stumbling out to home plate, where he
> > proceeded to hit a home run. Asked how he had managed to even hit the
> > ball given his state, he said he just aimed for the middle one.
> >
> > taf
> >
> > -------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
hsone
2010-10-27 21:26:34 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 26, 9:40 am, Douglas Richardson <***@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> 12. WALTER KENDALL, Esq., of Pelyn (in Lanlivery), Cornwall, Mayor of
> Lostwithiel, Cornwall, 3rd son.  He married before 1511 JANE ROUS,
> daughter of John Rous, of Modbury, Devon.  

The Visitation of Sussex (Harleian Vol. 53, p. 63) shows a pedigree
for Rous/Rowse of Modbury. There is a John of the correct period as
shown as married to daughter of "Fowhall". This would presumably be
the Fowell family of Fowelscombe, Devon. Some pedigrees state that
Sibyl or Jane/Joan Fowell of Fowelscombe, daughter of Wiliam Fowell,
M. P. (d. 1507) and his wife Eleanor daughter of Sir Walter Reynall
(d. 1476) of East Ogwell, Devonshire was married to John Rous of
Modbury.

Has anyone been able to verify the link between Rous and Fowell and
subsequently link this John as father of Jane, wife of Walter Kendall?

Thanks,

HS
hsone
2010-10-27 22:06:37 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 27, 2:26 pm, hsone <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 26, 9:40 am, Douglas Richardson <***@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> > 12. WALTER KENDALL, Esq., of Pelyn (in Lanlivery), Cornwall, Mayor of
> > Lostwithiel, Cornwall, 3rd son.  He married before 1511 JANE ROUS,
> > daughter of John Rous, of Modbury, Devon.  
>
> The Visitation of Sussex (Harleian Vol. 53, p. 63) shows a pedigree
> for Rous/Rowse of Modbury. There is a John of the correct period as
> shown as married to daughter of "Fowhall". This would presumably be
> the Fowell family of Fowelscombe, Devon. Some pedigrees state that
> Sibyl or Jane/Joan Fowell of Fowelscombe, daughter of Wiliam Fowell,
> M. P. (d. 1507) and his wife Eleanor daughter of Sir Walter Reynall
> (d. 1476) of East Ogwell, Devonshire was married to John Rous of
> Modbury.
>
> Has anyone been able to verify the link between Rous and Fowell and
> subsequently link this John as father of Jane, wife of Walter Kendall?
>
> Thanks,
>
> HS

Just wanted to also mention that Polsue's Parochial History of
Cornwall shows a Rous pedigree which has wife of John Rous as Isabel,
daughter of Henry Drewe of Modbury while it is their son William who
was married to William Rous.

HS
hsone
2010-10-27 23:32:35 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 27, 3:06 pm, hsone <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 27, 2:26 pm, hsone <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 26, 9:40 am, Douglas Richardson <***@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > > Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> > > 12. WALTER KENDALL, Esq., of Pelyn (in Lanlivery), Cornwall, Mayor of
> > > Lostwithiel, Cornwall, 3rd son.  He married before 1511 JANE ROUS,
> > > daughter of John Rous, of Modbury, Devon.  
>
> > The Visitation of Sussex (Harleian Vol. 53, p. 63) shows a pedigree
> > for Rous/Rowse of Modbury. There is a John of the correct period as
> > shown as married to daughter of "Fowhall". This would presumably be
> > the Fowell family of Fowelscombe, Devon. Some pedigrees state that
> > Sibyl or Jane/Joan Fowell of Fowelscombe, daughter of Wiliam Fowell,
> > M. P. (d. 1507) and his wife Eleanor daughter of Sir Walter Reynall
> > (d. 1476) of East Ogwell, Devonshire was married to John Rous of
> > Modbury.
>
> > Has anyone been able to verify the link between Rous and Fowell and
> > subsequently link this John as father of Jane, wife of Walter Kendall?
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > HS
>
> Just wanted to also mention that Polsue's Parochial History of
> Cornwall shows a Rous pedigree which has wife of John Rous as Isabel,
> daughter of Henry Drewe of Modbury while it is their son William who
> was married to William Rous.
>
> HS

Oops. The last sentence should be their son William who was married to
Sybil Fowell of Fowelscombe
Kevin Bradford
2010-10-28 00:23:30 UTC
Permalink
A2A has the following for William Harry alias Watt of "Luxulion" in Cornwall, living on 8 Nov. 1548 when he witnessed a grant.
His name is an interesting example of the late medieval Welsh patronymic.
There is a "John Harry" named in the A2A database in the same area as William Harry, found within the abstract of a 1521 document.
A brief mention of William Harry Watt was made in the newsgroup here in 2006. The claim was that the patronymic/surname of Watt was inherited from William's grandfather, Walter. Can this claim be verified?
Kevin
ART/3/67 1532, 22nd Sep (24 Hen VIII)Contents: Lease of toll tin, for term of yearsThomas Colyn, Prior of Truerdreth [?] = (1)William Harry Watte of Grethyow = (2)(1) to (2) to farm, all his 'tolletynne as blaktynne' [= toll-tin in the form of black tin?] that (1) has for the use of the monastery and within Blakmor stannary; for term of... years from next Michaelmas; rent to the prior 7s 8d yearly at 2 terms.Witnesses: Sealed and delivered in the presence of Richard Wayte, vicar of Luxulion, David Harry, William Feyre.Selected place-names, etc.: [Blackmoor stannary]
ME/23 8 November 1548
Contents: Grant1 Thomas Body of St. Blazey2 Sir Richard Edgcumbe, KtCorn mill and garden in Tregrehan in the parish of St. Blazey with leats, paths, ponds, water courses, etc.To hold in chief, paying 4d. yearly for all services. Distraint after arrears of one month. Warranty contra omnes homines. Attorneys to deliver seisin Richard Tredenen and Richard Penhate.Initials on sealWitd. Richard Trehawke, gent., William Harry Watts, John Harry senior.Tregrehan
RT/3/116 1533 [?], 28th May (25 [?] Hen VIII)
Contents: Lease of tithes, for term of 16 yearsThomas Colyns, Prior of Trewardreith = (1)Richard Wayte, vicar of Luxulian, and William Harry Wattes = (2)-(3)Counterpart of ART/3/115.Seals, endorsements, etc.: Seals of (2)-(3).
RT/3/115 1528, 4th Jun; Tywardraith
Contents: Lease of tithes, for term of 10 yearsThomas Colyns, Prior of Trewardreith = (1)Richard Wayte, vicar of Luxulian, and William Harry Wattes = (2)-(3)Lease by (1) to (2)-(3) of all the tithe corn from the parish of Luxulian, for term of 16 years; rent £9 6s 8d yearly at Purification and Lammas. Each party binds itself in 100 marks to keep this agreement.[No witnesses]Seals, endorsements, etc.: Seal of (1).Selected place-names, etc.: [Luxulian]
Also:
"William Harry Watt is named in Subsidy rolls for Cornwall, 1525 resident in Luxulyan as William Harry (Harrie) and 1547 as "William Harry alias Watt." -- J. Mosman, The CURIOUS CUSTOM of USING ALIASES. Online at St. Austell, Cornwall Genealogy Site: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~staustell/Word_Doc/Life/Aliases.htm
Matt Tompkins
2010-10-28 12:12:38 UTC
Permalink
On 28 Oct, 01:23, Kevin Bradford <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A2A has the following for William Harry alias Watt of "Luxulion" in Cornwall, living on 8 Nov. 1548 when he witnessed a grant.  
> His name is an interesting example of the late medieval Welsh patronymic.
> There is a "John Harry" named in the A2A database in the same area as William Harry, found within the abstract of a 1521 document.
> A brief mention of William Harry Watt was made in the newsgroup here in 2006.  The claim was that the patronymic/surname of Watt was inherited from William's grandfather, Walter.  Can this claim be verified?
> Kevin


I think you mean 'late medieval *Cornish* patronymic', Kevin. The
development of Cornish surnames in this period had many parallels with
Welsh surnames, but there were differences, and the Cornish system was
home-grown, not an import from Wales.

Two-part surnames, consisting of either two patronyms (as here) or a
patronym plus a place-name, were prevalent in the Cornish-speaking
parts of Cornwall in the late medieval period and the 16th century.
By the end of the Tudor period many had become stable hereditary
single-element surnames, but it is seldom possible to predict in any
individual case whether it would be the first or second element which
became the surname (and sometimes the choice seems to have wavered
between the two for a while). The first element seems always to have
been the father's forename, but while the second patronym was often
the grandfather's forename, this was not invariably the case. It
seems that even after a fixed hereditary surname had been adopted it
was sometimes the practice to prefix it with a patronym derived from
the father's forename.

Consequently it must be uncertain whether William Harry Watt's
descendants (if he left any) are surnamed Harry or Watt (or even
William or Will or Wilkin), and while it is likely that his
grandfather's forename was Walter, we cannot be sure of this. The
best chance of determining the latter would be to discover a series of
documents relating to a landholding which he had inherited from his
father and grandfather - some manor court rolls, for example, or a
bundle of title deeds.

The most recent, and also the most scholarly, discussion of late
medieval and 16C Cornish surnames is that by Oliver Padel in the
Introduction to HSA Fox and OJ Padel, The Cornish Lands of the
Arundells of Lanherne, Fourteenth to Sixteenth Centuries (Devon &
Cornwall Rec Soc, 1998), pp. cxxiv - cxxxviii.

Matt Tompkins



> ART/3/67  1532, 22nd Sep (24 Hen VIII)Contents: Lease of toll tin, for term of yearsThomas Colyn, Prior of Truerdreth [?] = (1)William Harry Watte of Grethyow = (2)(1) to (2) to farm, all his 'tolletynne as blaktynne' [= toll-tin in the form of black tin?] that (1) has for the use of the monastery and within Blakmor stannary; for term of... years from next Michaelmas; rent to the prior 7s 8d yearly at 2 terms.Witnesses: Sealed and delivered in the presence of Richard Wayte, vicar of Luxulion, David Harry, William Feyre.Selected place-names, etc.: [Blackmoor stannary]
> ME/23  8 November 1548
> Contents: Grant1 Thomas Body of St. Blazey2 Sir Richard Edgcumbe, KtCorn mill and garden in Tregrehan in the parish of St. Blazey with leats, paths, ponds, water courses, etc.To hold in chief, paying 4d. yearly for all services. Distraint after arrears of one month. Warranty contra omnes homines. Attorneys to deliver seisin Richard Tredenen and Richard Penhate.Initials on sealWitd. Richard Trehawke, gent., William Harry Watts, John Harry senior.Tregrehan
> RT/3/116  1533 [?], 28th May (25 [?] Hen VIII)
> Contents: Lease of tithes, for term of 16 yearsThomas Colyns, Prior of Trewardreith = (1)Richard Wayte, vicar of Luxulian, and William Harry Wattes = (2)-(3)Counterpart of ART/3/115.Seals, endorsements, etc.: Seals of (2)-(3).
> RT/3/115  1528, 4th Jun; Tywardraith
> Contents: Lease of tithes, for term of 10 yearsThomas Colyns, Prior of Trewardreith = (1)Richard Wayte, vicar of Luxulian, and William Harry Wattes = (2)-(3)Lease by (1) to (2)-(3) of all the tithe corn from the parish of Luxulian, for term of 16 years; rent £9 6s 8d yearly at Purification and Lammas. Each party binds itself in 100 marks to keep this agreement.[No witnesses]Seals, endorsements, etc.: Seal of (1).Selected place-names, etc.: [Luxulian]
> Also:
> "William Harry Watt is named in Subsidy rolls for Cornwall, 1525 resident in Luxulyan as William Harry (Harrie) and 1547 as "William Harry alias Watt."  -- J. Mosman, The CURIOUS CUSTOM of USING ALIASES.  Online at St. Austell, Cornwall  Genealogy Site:http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~staustell/Word_Doc/...
Kevin Bradford
2010-10-28 14:19:51 UTC
Permalink
Matt,

Thank you very much for this interesting, timely and informative post.

William Harry Watt did in fact leave descendants, at least via his daughter, Anne (inc. yours truly), but of course the patronymic would be lost after her. She seems to have been referred to as "Watt" or "Watts." At least several of the posters here also descend from this man.

Cheers,
Kevin

> From: ***@le.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: William Harry alias Watt of Cornwall
> Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 05:12:38 -0700
> To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
>
> On 28 Oct, 01:23, Kevin Bradford <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > A2A has the following for William Harry alias Watt of "Luxulion" in Cornwall, living on 8 Nov. 1548 when he witnessed a grant.
> > His name is an interesting example of the late medieval Welsh patronymic.
> > There is a "John Harry" named in the A2A database in the same area as William Harry, found within the abstract of a 1521 document.
> > A brief mention of William Harry Watt was made in the newsgroup here in 2006. The claim was that the patronymic/surname of Watt was inherited from William's grandfather, Walter. Can this claim be verified?
> > Kevin
>
>
> I think you mean 'late medieval *Cornish* patronymic', Kevin. The
> development of Cornish surnames in this period had many parallels with
> Welsh surnames, but there were differences, and the Cornish system was
> home-grown, not an import from Wales.
>
> Two-part surnames, consisting of either two patronyms (as here) or a
> patronym plus a place-name, were prevalent in the Cornish-speaking
> parts of Cornwall in the late medieval period and the 16th century.
> By the end of the Tudor period many had become stable hereditary
> single-element surnames, but it is seldom possible to predict in any
> individual case whether it would be the first or second element which
> became the surname (and sometimes the choice seems to have wavered
> between the two for a while). The first element seems always to have
> been the father's forename, but while the second patronym was often
> the grandfather's forename, this was not invariably the case. It
> seems that even after a fixed hereditary surname had been adopted it
> was sometimes the practice to prefix it with a patronym derived from
> the father's forename.
>
> Consequently it must be uncertain whether William Harry Watt's
> descendants (if he left any) are surnamed Harry or Watt (or even
> William or Will or Wilkin), and while it is likely that his
> grandfather's forename was Walter, we cannot be sure of this. The
> best chance of determining the latter would be to discover a series of
> documents relating to a landholding which he had inherited from his
> father and grandfather - some manor court rolls, for example, or a
> bundle of title deeds.
>
> The most recent, and also the most scholarly, discussion of late
> medieval and 16C Cornish surnames is that by Oliver Padel in the
> Introduction to HSA Fox and OJ Padel, The Cornish Lands of the
> Arundells of Lanherne, Fourteenth to Sixteenth Centuries (Devon &
> Cornwall Rec Soc, 1998), pp. cxxiv - cxxxviii.
>
> Matt Tompkins
>
>
>
> > ART/3/67 1532, 22nd Sep (24 Hen VIII)Contents: Lease of toll tin, for term of yearsThomas Colyn, Prior of Truerdreth [?] = (1)William Harry Watte of Grethyow = (2)(1) to (2) to farm, all his 'tolletynne as blaktynne' [= toll-tin in the form of black tin?] that (1) has for the use of the monastery and within Blakmor stannary; for term of... years from next Michaelmas; rent to the prior 7s 8d yearly at 2 terms.Witnesses: Sealed and delivered in the presence of Richard Wayte, vicar of Luxulion, David Harry, William Feyre.Selected place-names, etc.: [Blackmoor stannary]
> > ME/23 8 November 1548
> > Contents: Grant1 Thomas Body of St. Blazey2 Sir Richard Edgcumbe, KtCorn mill and garden in Tregrehan in the parish of St. Blazey with leats, paths, ponds, water courses, etc.To hold in chief, paying 4d. yearly for all services. Distraint after arrears of one month. Warranty contra omnes homines. Attorneys to deliver seisin Richard Tredenen and Richard Penhate.Initials on sealWitd. Richard Trehawke, gent., William Harry Watts, John Harry senior.Tregrehan
> > RT/3/116 1533 [?], 28th May (25 [?] Hen VIII)
> > Contents: Lease of tithes, for term of 16 yearsThomas Colyns, Prior of Trewardreith = (1)Richard Wayte, vicar of Luxulian, and William Harry Wattes = (2)-(3)Counterpart of ART/3/115.Seals, endorsements, etc.: Seals of (2)-(3).
> > RT/3/115 1528, 4th Jun; Tywardraith
> > Contents: Lease of tithes, for term of 10 yearsThomas Colyns, Prior of Trewardreith = (1)Richard Wayte, vicar of Luxulian, and William Harry Wattes = (2)-(3)Lease by (1) to (2)-(3) of all the tithe corn from the parish of Luxulian, for term of 16 years; rent £9 6s 8d yearly at Purification and Lammas. Each party binds itself in 100 marks to keep this agreement.[No witnesses]Seals, endorsements, etc.: Seal of (1).Selected place-names, etc.: [Luxulian]
> > Also:
> > "William Harry Watt is named in Subsidy rolls for Cornwall, 1525 resident in Luxulyan as William Harry (Harrie) and 1547 as "William Harry alias Watt." -- J. Mosman, The CURIOUS CUSTOM of USING ALIASES. Online at St. Austell, Cornwall Genealogy Site:http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~staustell/Word_Doc/...
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
taf
2010-10-28 14:53:08 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 28, 7:19 am, Kevin Bradford <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Matt,
>
> Thank you very much for this interesting, timely and informative post.
>
> William Harry Watt did in fact leave descendants, at least via his daughter, Anne (inc. yours truly), but of course the patronymic would be lost after her.  She seems to have been referred to as "Watt" or "Watts."  At least several of the posters here also descend from this man.


By her contemporaries, or just by people writing 300 years later, who
may not have understood Cornish patronymics?

taf
taf
2010-10-28 00:44:00 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 27, 2:26 pm, hsone <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 26, 9:40 am, Douglas Richardson <***@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> > 12. WALTER KENDALL, Esq., of Pelyn (in Lanlivery), Cornwall, Mayor of
> > Lostwithiel, Cornwall, 3rd son.  He married before 1511 JANE ROUS,
> > daughter of John Rous, of Modbury, Devon.  
>
> The Visitation of Sussex (Harleian Vol. 53, p. 63) shows a pedigree
> for Rous/Rowse of Modbury. There is a John of the correct period as
> shown as married to daughter of "Fowhall".

Curiously, I was just looking at this Sussex Rous pedigree over the
weekend - stumbled across it while looking at the pedigree immediately
before it, and this morning checked and confirmed that his is the same
lineage given in Polsue. I haven't looked into the precise details,
though - so many ancestors, so little time.

taf
John
2010-10-28 03:24:44 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 27, 5:44 pm, taf <***@clearwire.net> wrote:
> On Oct 27, 2:26 pm, hsone <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 26, 9:40 am, Douglas Richardson <***@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > > Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> > > 12. WALTER KENDALL, Esq., of Pelyn (in Lanlivery), Cornwall, Mayor of
> > > Lostwithiel, Cornwall, 3rd son.  He married before 1511 JANE ROUS,
> > > daughter of John Rous, of Modbury, Devon.  
>
> > The Visitation of Sussex (Harleian Vol. 53, p. 63) shows a pedigree
> > for Rous/Rowse of Modbury. There is a John of the correct period as
> > shown as married to daughter of "Fowhall".
>
> Curiously, I was just looking at this Sussex Rous pedigree over the
> weekend - stumbled across it while looking at the pedigree immediately
> before it, and this morning checked and confirmed that his is the same
> lineage given in Polsue.  I haven't looked into the precise details,
> though - so many ancestors, so little time.
>
> taf

There is a slightly different version of this Rous pedigree in the
1620 Visitation of Cornwall (Harleian Society vol. 9 p. 193-4) which
Vivian has incorporated in the Rous pedigree in his edition of the
Visitations of Cornwall. It's not quite the same as the Rous pedigree
in Polsue but it's close, Unfortunately none of these pedigrees gives
a daughter Jane, husband to Walter kendall, to any of the Rous
family. Although it appears chronologically feasible, it's not
supported by these pedigrees.

Also FWIW the Fowell pedigree in Vivian's edition of the Visitations
of Devon does not give a daughter of William married to a Rous.
Again, a chronological possibility not supported by the published
pedigrees....but not impossible.

HSP 9 mentioned above is available via Google Books and Vivian's
editions for both Cornwall and Devon are available at the BYU library
website.
Douglas Richardson
2010-10-28 18:07:51 UTC
Permalink
Dear Newsgroup ~

John Holand, Duke of Exeter, Earl of Huntingdon and Ivry (died 1447)
had a large tribe of illegitimate children, including Robert Holand,
Esq., as indicated in my earlier post in this thread. Two additional
such illegitimate sons of Duke John Holand are mentioned in Patrick
Zutshi, Medieval Cambridge: Essays on the Pre-Reformation Univ.
(1993): 56, which source may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OOQrHRoaQ_UC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Zutshi,+Medieval+Cambridge:&source=bl&ots=440D4d3ala&sig=pk2gXoViYkb-cWHqFs6aEl-AAzI&hl=en&ei=hbTJTOToDIyesQPj8LXeDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=rector&f=false

Zutshi states that John and William [Holand], natural sons of the Earl
of Huntingdon, were already rectors when they resided as commoners at
King’s Hall, Cambridge in 1440–1 and 1441–2.

I presume that John Holand named here by Zutshi as a rector is the man
of that name who occurs as Rector of Heanton Punchardon, Devon c.1450
[see North Devon Rec. Office: Barnstaple Borough, B1/496 (available at
www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)]. I have no further particulars
regarding William Holand.

John and William Holand should be all new descendants of King Edward
III for most genealogical databases.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
taf
2010-10-28 19:07:19 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 28, 11:07 am, Douglas Richardson <***@msn.com> wrote:
>  Two additional
> such illegitimate sons of Duke John Holand are mentioned in Patrick
> Zutshi, Medieval Cambridge: Essays on the Pre-Reformation Univ.
> (1993): 56, which source may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=OOQrHRoaQ_UC&printsec=frontcover&dq=...
>
> Zutshi states that John and William [Holand], natural sons of the Earl
> of Huntingdon, were already rectors when they resided as commoners at
> King’s Hall, Cambridge in 1440–1 and 1441–2.

And he footnotes it, so we know which of his many sources serves as
the basis for this particular conclusion. Would that other scholars
acted with the same consideration.

taf
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