Discussion:
Robert I (the Bruce), king of Scotland, and the Dishington family of Ardross, Fife
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Peter G. M. Dale
2020-05-20 17:41:34 UTC
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Greetings,

I’m currently researching the Dishington family of Ardross, Fife and its possible descent from Elizabeth, sister of Robert (the Bruce) I of Scotland. I’d be interested in any thoughts on my notes below related to the Dishington family. In particular, whether it is possible to glean any further details of:

1. the relationship amongst the Dishington family and Scottish kings Robert I, David II and Robert III;

2. relationships amongst the various Dishingtons, i.e. father to son, and the odd 2x charters issued by Robert III to both William IV and Thomas Dishington dealing with the same property; and

3. can dates of death and ages (i.e. majority) be identified from any of the attached charters?

Any assistance or insight would be very much appreciated!

Cheers,

Pete
pdale (at) peterdale (dot) com

Nature of the Relationship between King Robert I the Bruce and William I Dishington

Facts

[1] William I Dishington (c 1290 – c 1365), purported husband of Elizabeth de Bruce, was the recipient of a charter from King Robert I.

"Document 1/53/531 (RMS, i, App. 1, no. 78) – Description - Robert, king of Scots, has [given, granted, and?] confirmed to our beloved and faithful William of Dissington, knight, for his homage and service, the land of Balglassie in his thanage of Aberlemno (ANG), with one mark annual rent from his mill of Aberlemno, in extent ten markates of land; holding in feu and heritage, for the service of one archer in his army, and three suits of court at his sheriffdom court of Forfar at the three chief pleas, and making (i.e., paying) multure to his mill of Aberlemno, and suit of the aforesaid lands owed and wont, and paying nothing to the prior of Restenneth.

Firm date - 25 March 1306 X 7 June 1329 -- Probable date - 24 June 1314 × -- Dating Notes - inauguration × death of King Robert I; prob. after battle of Bannockburn”

(Website - People of Medieval Scotland, 1093-1371 - Document 1/53/531 (RMS, i, App. 1, no. 78). Web Address -
https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/source/10477/

[2] John Dishington (b c 1320), purported brother of William I, is stated to have likewise received a charter from Robert I in which he is described by the king as his nephew (or close male relation) “Dilecto nepoti suo” [Our beloved nephew/close male relative].

"Robert Lord of Annandale ... leaving issue by Margaret Countess of Carrick his wife ... (g) Elizabeth, to Sir William Dishington of Ardross (h) Knight. ... (g) Charta Roberti I. Dilecto nepoti suo Joanni Dishingtoun militi Terrarum de Langhermestoun. (h) Charta in publicis Archivis."

('The Peerage of Scotland', (1716), by George Crawfurd, pp. 70-71. Web Address –
https://archive.org/details/peerageofscotlan00craw/page/144/mode/2up)

[3] William II Dishington (c 1315 - before August 3, 1387) received a number of charters from David II. He is described variously as a “Bachelor” (a tenurial and lordship relationship). However, in a charter dated September 18, 1369 he is described by David II as his kinsman “Cognatus/consanguineus” [kinsman/male cousin].

“Transaction: Gift of Kilbrackmont (FIF) -- Document 1/54/635 (RMS, i, no. 327) -- Description - David, king of Scots, has given his beloved relative William of Dissington, knight, land of Kilbrackmont (FIF), which was Walter Bisset of Clerkington's, and which Walter resigned; holding by William and his heirs and his assigns; in feu and heritage, in one free and integral barony, with bondsmen and bondages, neyfs and their offspring, with tenancies and services of freeholders, with pit and gallows, sake and soke, toll team and infangenthef; as freely as Walter held it; for service owed and wont. -- Firm date - 18 September 1369 -- Dating Notes - 18 Sept., regnal year 40 -- Place date (modern) Edinburgh.

Witnesses - Alexander Lindsay, knight (mid 14C); Archibald Douglas, lord of Galloway, earl of Douglas (d. 1400); Patrick of Leuchars, bishop of Brechin (d. 1383); Robert Erskine, chamberlain; Robert [Stewart] II, king of Scots (d. 1390); Walter of Leslie, knight; William Douglas, earl of Douglas and Mar (d. 1384); William Landellis, bishop of St Andrews (d. 1385)”

(Website - People of Medieval Scotland, 1093-1371 - From Source - 1/54/635 (RMS, i, no. 327). Web Address - https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/factoid/101709/)

[4] Thomas Dishington (b c 1375), son of William III and grandson of William II, received a charter from Robert III in which he is described as his nephew or close male relative “dilecto nepoti nostro” [our beloved nephew/close male relative].

ADDENDA. The two following Extracts have come to the editor’s knowledge since Appendix I. was printed off. REGNANTE ROBERTO TERTIO. EX ROTULO LXXVIII. [1]. [Carta Thome de Dischingtoun.]l Robertus Dei gratia rex Scotorum omnibus probis hominibus totins terre sue clericis et laicis salutem. Sciatis nos dedisse concessisse et hac presenti carta nostra confirmasse dilecto nepoti nostro Thome de Dischingtoun, totas et integras terras baronie de Ardros cum pertinentiis, jacentes infra vicecomitatum de Fyff • que fuerunt Willelmi de Dischingtoun militis patris sui, et quas idem Willelmus non vi aut metu ductus nec errore lapsus sed sua mera et spontanea voluntate per literas suas resignationis cum fuste et baculo in presentia testium subscriptorum nobis sursum dedit pureque et simpliciter resignavit ac totum jus et clameum que in dictis terris cum pertinentiis habuit quitum clamavit imperpetuum • Tenendas et habendas predictas terras cum pertinentiis eidem Thome et heredibus suis de nobis et heredibus nostris in feodo et hereditate imperpetuum per omnes rectas metas et divisas suas antiquas in boscis planis moris marresiis aquis stagnis viis semitis pratis pascuis et pasturis molen- dinis multuris et eorum sequelis cum curiis et escaetis et earum exitibus cum aucupationibus venationibus et piscariis petariis et turbariis ac omnibus aliis com- moditatibus libertatibus aisiamentis ac justis suis pertinentiis quibuscunque tam sub terra quam supra terram tam non nomi- natis quam nominatis procul et prope ad dictas terras cum pertinentiis spectantibus sen juste spectare valentibus quomodolibet in futurum libere quiete plenarie integre honorifice bene et in pace • Reddendo nobis et heredibus nostris dictus Thomas et heredes sui de dictis terris cum per- tinentiis unum denarium argenti annuatim apud maneriem de Ardros ad festum Penthecostes nomine albefirme si petatur tantum pro wardis releviis et maritagiis sectis curie oneribus secularibus servitiis exactionibus seu demandis que de dictis terris cum pertinentiis in futurum exigi poterunt aliqualiter vel requiri • Reser- vato tamen liberotenemento dictarum terrarum cum pertinentiis dicto Willelmo patri suo pro toto tempore vite sue. In cujus rei testimonium presenti carte nostre sigillum nostrum precepimus apponi. Testibus carissimo fratre nostro Waltero comite de Catnes, Johanne Senescalli de Achingown filio nostro naturali, Johanne Berclay de Kyppow, Alexandro Vaus, Willelmo Joos capellano nostro, Thoma de Leky et Jacobo de Dalrumpill clerico nostro. Apud Southenan, vicesimo octavo die mensis Novembris anno Domini millesimo quadringentesimo secundo et regni nostri anno tertio decimo. [1] From Extract, certified by Mr. John Skene clerk register, in Elie charter chest.”

(‘The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1306-1424’, New Edition, (1912), edited by John Maitland Thomson, p. 651. Web Address –
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101038096846&view=2up&seq=680&size=150)

[5] John Dishington (c 1560) – a descendant of the Lairds of Ardross

[In October 1599, the attempted settlement of the Isle of Lewis by men from Fifeshire was successfully opposed by the Macleods] ... "Those who escaped set sail for Orkney, and among them was John Dishington, a younger son of the laird of Ardross. Acknowledged as a relative by the Earl of Orkney, his lordship's father being an illegitimate son of James V., John Dishington was by him appointed sheriff and commissary of Orkney and Shetland."

(‘Register of the Collegiate Church of Crail’, (1877), by Rev. Charles Rogers, p. 15. Web Address –
https://books.google.ca/books?id=FscIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA14&dq=%22william+dishington%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdj_HMyoLpAhXWgnIEHYdZAIw4ChDoAQhAMAM#v=onepage&q=%22dishington%22&f=false)

Relationships

[A] Robert I was the son of Robert de Brus, 6th Lord of Annandale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_de_Brus,_6th_Lord_of_Annandale) and Marjorie, Countess of Carrick (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjorie,_Countess_of_Carrick).


[B] David II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_II_of_Scotland) was the son of Robert I and Elizabeth de Burgh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_de_Burgh), second wife of Robert I.


[C] Robert III (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_III_of_Scotland) was the son of Robert II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_II_of_Scotland) and Elizabeth Mure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Mure). Robert II was, in turn, the son of Walter Stewart, 6th High Steward of Scotland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Stewart,_6th_High_Steward_of_Scotland) and Marjorie Bruce (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjorie_Bruce). Marjorie was the daughter of Robert I and Isabella of Mar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Mar), the first wife of Robert I.

Analysis

From a review of the Facts and Relationships above we can attempt to come to some conclusions. As (i) John I, and presumably his brother William I, were related to Robert I, (ii) William II to David II, and (iii) Thomas to Robert III, how are these three kings related to each other? Robert I is the father of David II by his 2nd wife. Robert III is the grandson of Robert I by his 1st wife. Thus the commonality of relationship, amongst John I, William II and Thomas to Robert I, David II and Robert III, appears to be Robert I and his parents as opposed to, for example, his wives given that the relationship between David II and Robert III is via a different mother and grandmother, respectively.

The relationships discussed above, amongst members of the Dishington family and these three Scottish kings, corroborate, but do not prove, the purported descent of the Dishington family via a sister of Robert I who married William I Dishington.

Qualifications

The above analysis is qualified by the fact that the identities of the wives of William II and William III Dishington are currently unknown.
Peter G. M. Dale
2020-05-21 17:06:55 UTC
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Just to summarize my earlier post, subject to the qualifier that the identities of the wives of William II and William III Dishington are currently unknown, I believe the relationship between Robert I and the Dishington family is via Robert I himself and not one of his wives.

The reason for the foregoing is the fact that (i) John I, and presumably his brother William II, were related to Robert I, (ii) William II was related to David II, and (iii) Thomas (son of William III) was related to Robert III. Robert I is the father of David II by his 2nd wife. Robert III is the grandson of Robert I by his 1st wife. Thus the commonality of relationship, amongst John I, William II and Thomas to Robert I, David II and Robert III, respectively, appears to be Robert I and his parents as opposed to his wives given that the relationship between David II and Robert III is via a different mother and grandmother, respectively.

With respect to Marjory, Countess of Carrick, the chronology of the Dishington family mitigates against its descent from a daughter of Marjory by an earlier marriage or relationship. However, it is certainly possible that the Dishingtons descend from an illegitimate daughter of Robert I’s father, Robert, 6th lord of Annandale.

Any comments, critiques or suggestions for additional research are very welcome!

Cheers,

Pete
Peter G. M. Dale
2020-05-30 20:42:36 UTC
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Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Just to summarize my earlier post, subject to the qualifier that the identities of the wives of William II and William III Dishington are currently unknown, I believe the relationship between Robert I and the Dishington family is via Robert I himself and not one of his wives.
The reason for the foregoing is the fact that (i) John I, and presumably his brother William II, were related to Robert I, (ii) William II was related to David II, and (iii) Thomas (son of William III) was related to Robert III. Robert I is the father of David II by his 2nd wife. Robert III is the grandson of Robert I by his 1st wife. Thus the commonality of relationship, amongst John I, William II and Thomas to Robert I, David II and Robert III, respectively, appears to be Robert I and his parents as opposed to his wives given that the relationship between David II and Robert III is via a different mother and grandmother, respectively.
With respect to Marjory, Countess of Carrick, the chronology of the Dishington family mitigates against its descent from a daughter of Marjory by an earlier marriage or relationship. However, it is certainly possible that the Dishingtons descend from an illegitimate daughter of Robert I’s father, Robert, 6th lord of Annandale.
Any comments, critiques or suggestions for additional research are very welcome!
Cheers,
Pete
Hi Peter Stewart, I tried to send you a private message and am uncertain whether it transmitted successfully. I'd welcome your, or anyone else's, commentary or insight regarding my posts in this thread when you may have a free moment. Many thanks. Cheers, Pete (pdale (at) peterdale (dot) com)
Peter Stewart
2020-05-31 01:00:19 UTC
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Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Just to summarize my earlier post, subject to the qualifier that the identities of the wives of William II and William III Dishington are currently unknown, I believe the relationship between Robert I and the Dishington family is via Robert I himself and not one of his wives.
The reason for the foregoing is the fact that (i) John I, and presumably his brother William II, were related to Robert I, (ii) William II was related to David II, and (iii) Thomas (son of William III) was related to Robert III. Robert I is the father of David II by his 2nd wife. Robert III is the grandson of Robert I by his 1st wife. Thus the commonality of relationship, amongst John I, William II and Thomas to Robert I, David II and Robert III, respectively, appears to be Robert I and his parents as opposed to his wives given that the relationship between David II and Robert III is via a different mother and grandmother, respectively.
With respect to Marjory, Countess of Carrick, the chronology of the Dishington family mitigates against its descent from a daughter of Marjory by an earlier marriage or relationship. However, it is certainly possible that the Dishingtons descend from an illegitimate daughter of Robert I’s father, Robert, 6th lord of Annandale.
Any comments, critiques or suggestions for additional research are very welcome!
Cheers,
Pete
Hi Peter Stewart, I tried to send you a private message and am uncertain whether it transmitted successfully. I'd welcome your, or anyone else's, commentary or insight regarding my posts in this thread when you may have a free moment. Many thanks. Cheers, Pete (pdale (at) peterdale (dot) com)
Thanks Peter - I did receive your off-list email, and intended to reply
today but will now do this here.

I didn't respond to your posts on the subject because I don't know
anything worthwhile about it. But I understand how frustrating it can be
when a request for comment goes by without any nibble in this fishpond.

From the information you have given, it seems to me that the generation
in which the uncle-nephew relationship occurs may have been mistaken by
historians claiming to find kinship stated by Robert I. Without
searching for text of this alleged charter, the claim appears to lack
substantiation.

On the other hand, you have quoted a charter of Robert III calling
Thomas Dishington his beloved nephew ("dilecto nepoti nostro"). It is
true that "nepos" could mean an unspecified younger kinsman, but this
usage was far less common than the conventional meanings "grandson" and
"nephew", especially when the statement was made directly by the
person's relative who presumably knew the facts. Unless you can find
that Robert III habitually referred to his kinsmen as "nepotes" rather
than "consanguinei" - which I doubt - then the first working theory
should perhaps be that a great-granddaughter of Robert I (de Brus) was
the mother of Thomas Dishington named on 28 November 1402. This is not
necessarily at odds with the next-best piece of evidence given, that
'David, king of Scots, has given his beloved relative William of
Dissington, knight, land of Kilbrackmont' on 18 September 1369 -
depending on the actual terminology of the charter, if you can find it,
that may not refer to blood kinship. You say 'he is described by David
II as his kinsman "Cognatus/consanguineus" [kinsman/male cousin]',
suggesting that both terms are used in the same document. Is this the case?

It seems interesting to me that in the charter of 28 November 1402
Robert III called Thomas his "nepos" while not explicitly acknowledging
any relationship between himself and Thomas's father William who was
living at the time ("Reservato tamen libero tenemento dictarum terrarum
cum pertinentiis dicto Willelmo patri suo pro toto tempore vite sue.")
If the connection came through the marriage of a sister of Robert I to a
Dishington, then Robert III would have been one step closer to the
father than to Thomas the "nepos".

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2020-05-31 03:30:19 UTC
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Hi Peter,

Many thanks for your response. It is very much appreciated sir. A brief follow-up to your commentary. The charter of David II to William Dishington who, I believe, is the grandfather of Thomas Dishington, is found in ‘The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1306-1424’, (1912), edited by John Maitland Thomson, no. 327 - p. 114/no. 1593 - p. 621)
(https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101038096846&view=2up&seq=144&size=200)

The terminology employed in the charter is "Sciatis dedisse, etc., dilecto consanguineo nostro Willelmo de Dysschyntona militi".

The reference to the individual who I believe to be Thomas’ father is found in ‘Collections for a History of the Shires of Aberdeen and Banff’, Volume I, (1843), by Joseph Robertson, pp. 511-513.
(https://books.google.ca/books?id=iSlXAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA512&lpg=PA512&dq=%22de+dyssynton%22&source=bl&ots=kxzChxPuBQ&sig=ACfU3U35hU1usCfwXMCpIEquEJdifuJjOA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLkcuHirXpAhVjhXIEHeZMC-EQ6AEwA3oECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22de%20dyssynton%22&f=false)

In this charter, by John, Abbot of Arbroath Abbey, to John Fraser of the land of "Barcbennach" in "Forglen" on August 3, 1387, "Willelmo de Dissynton filio et herede Domini Willelmi de Dyssynton militis" is a witness.

Does any of this assist in clarifying the relationships?

Cheers,

Pete
Peter Stewart
2020-05-31 03:46:39 UTC
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Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Hi Peter,
Many thanks for your response. It is very much appreciated sir. A brief follow-up to your commentary. The charter of David II to William Dishington who, I believe, is the grandfather of Thomas Dishington, is found in ‘The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1306-1424’, (1912), edited by John Maitland Thomson, no. 327 - p. 114/no. 1593 - p. 621)
(https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101038096846&view=2up&seq=144&size=200)
The terminology employed in the charter is "Sciatis dedisse, etc., dilecto consanguineo nostro Willelmo de Dysschyntona militi".
The charter text is not on p. 621 of the 1912 revised edition, where it
says about this:

"1593. Carte Willielmi de Dischingtoun de terris de Kinbrathmont."

and

"(4) To William Dishingtoun, of the lands of Kinbrackmont, vicecomitetu
de Fyfe, quhilk Walter Bisset resigned. Fyfe [327]"

Where do you find the passage quoted above?
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
The reference to the individual who I believe to be Thomas’ father is found in ‘Collections for a History of the Shires of Aberdeen and Banff’, Volume I, (1843), by Joseph Robertson, pp. 511-513.
(https://books.google.ca/books?id=iSlXAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA512&lpg=PA512&dq=%22de+dyssynton%22&source=bl&ots=kxzChxPuBQ&sig=ACfU3U35hU1usCfwXMCpIEquEJdifuJjOA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLkcuHirXpAhVjhXIEHeZMC-EQ6AEwA3oECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22de%20dyssynton%22&f=false)
In this charter, by John, Abbot of Arbroath Abbey, to John Fraser of the land of "Barcbennach" in "Forglen" on August 3, 1387, "Willelmo de Dissynton filio et herede Domini Willelmi de Dyssynton militis" is a witness.
Does any of this assist in clarifying the relationships?
It might for someone who knows more than I do, but all it tells me is
that in 1387 William Dishington (presumably the father or brother of
Thomas in November 1402) was described as son and heir of Sir William
Dishington.

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2020-05-31 03:51:37 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Hi Peter,
Many thanks for your response. It is very much appreciated sir. A brief follow-up to your commentary. The charter of David II to William Dishington who, I believe, is the grandfather of Thomas Dishington, is found in ‘The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1306-1424’, (1912), edited by John Maitland Thomson, no. 327 - p. 114/no. 1593 - p. 621)
(https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101038096846&view=2up&seq=144&size=200)
The terminology employed in the charter is "Sciatis dedisse, etc., dilecto consanguineo nostro Willelmo de Dysschyntona militi".
The charter text is not on p. 621 of the 1912 revised edition, where it
"1593. Carte Willielmi de Dischingtoun de terris de Kinbrathmont."
and
"(4) To William Dishingtoun, of the lands of Kinbrackmont, vicecomitetu
de Fyfe, quhilk Walter Bisset resigned. Fyfe [327]"
Where do you find the passage quoted above?
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
The reference to the individual who I believe to be Thomas’ father is found in ‘Collections for a History of the Shires of Aberdeen and Banff’, Volume I, (1843), by Joseph Robertson, pp. 511-513.
(https://books.google.ca/books?id=iSlXAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA512&lpg=PA512&dq=%22de+dyssynton%22&source=bl&ots=kxzChxPuBQ&sig=ACfU3U35hU1usCfwXMCpIEquEJdifuJjOA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLkcuHirXpAhVjhXIEHeZMC-EQ6AEwA3oECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22de%20dyssynton%22&f=false)
In this charter, by John, Abbot of Arbroath Abbey, to John Fraser of the land of "Barcbennach" in "Forglen" on August 3, 1387, "Willelmo de Dissynton filio et herede Domini Willelmi de Dyssynton militis" is a witness.
Does any of this assist in clarifying the relationships?
It might for someone who knows more than I do, but all it tells me is
that in 1387 William Dishington (presumably the father or brother of
Thomas in November 1402) was described as son and heir of Sir William
Dishington.
Peter Stewart
Hi Peter, the charter is no. 327 on p. 114. Thanks!
Peter Stewart
2020-05-31 04:22:53 UTC
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Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Hi Peter,
Many thanks for your response. It is very much appreciated sir. A brief follow-up to your commentary. The charter of David II to William Dishington who, I believe, is the grandfather of Thomas Dishington, is found in ‘The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1306-1424’, (1912), edited by John Maitland Thomson, no. 327 - p. 114/no. 1593 - p. 621)
(https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101038096846&view=2up&seq=144&size=200)
The terminology employed in the charter is "Sciatis dedisse, etc., dilecto consanguineo nostro Willelmo de Dysschyntona militi".
The charter text is not on p. 621 of the 1912 revised edition, where it
"1593. Carte Willielmi de Dischingtoun de terris de Kinbrathmont."
and
"(4) To William Dishingtoun, of the lands of Kinbrackmont, vicecomitetu
de Fyfe, quhilk Walter Bisset resigned. Fyfe [327]"
Where do you find the passage quoted above?
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
The reference to the individual who I believe to be Thomas’ father is found in ‘Collections for a History of the Shires of Aberdeen and Banff’, Volume I, (1843), by Joseph Robertson, pp. 511-513.
(https://books.google.ca/books?id=iSlXAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA512&lpg=PA512&dq=%22de+dyssynton%22&source=bl&ots=kxzChxPuBQ&sig=ACfU3U35hU1usCfwXMCpIEquEJdifuJjOA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLkcuHirXpAhVjhXIEHeZMC-EQ6AEwA3oECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22de%20dyssynton%22&f=false)
In this charter, by John, Abbot of Arbroath Abbey, to John Fraser of the land of "Barcbennach" in "Forglen" on August 3, 1387, "Willelmo de Dissynton filio et herede Domini Willelmi de Dyssynton militis" is a witness.
Does any of this assist in clarifying the relationships?
It might for someone who knows more than I do, but all it tells me is
that in 1387 William Dishington (presumably the father or brother of
Thomas in November 1402) was described as son and heir of Sir William
Dishington.
Peter Stewart
Hi Peter, the charter is no. 327 on p. 114. Thanks!
Thanks Peter - I should have found this for myself with the perfectly
adequate information you gave.

The charter dated 18 September would be in 1368 rather 1369 unless I am
miscounting or using the wrong starting point for David II's reign - if
counting from the death of his father then he came to the throne in June
1329 so that September in his fortieth year would be in 1368. But I know
nothing of his chancery's practice and maybe they counted his reign from
a different date.

In any event, the question that occurs to me is: Which William
Dishington did he call his blood kinsman (consanguineo nostro) in 1369?
If this was the father of William in 1387, and father or grandfather of
Thomas in 1402, then Robert III's "nepoti nostro" for Thomas can't very
well mean "nephew" unless his parents made a consanguineous marriage. If
on the other hand Thomas in 1402 and the younger William in 1387 were
brothers, and old enough that the younger William was also the man in
the 1368/69 charter, then the charter evidence quoted so far would still
be consistent with a sister of Robert II (i.e. a granddaughter of Robert
I) marrying the elder William Dishington in the 1330s or 1340s.

My set of eyes is not useful on this question as I know nothing about
the Dishington family chronology independently of these charters and
statements about some others that I haven't seen.

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2020-05-31 05:02:05 UTC
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Many thanks Peter. I appreciate your assistance.

Cheers,

Pete
Peter Stewart
2020-05-31 07:32:58 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Hi Peter,
Many thanks for your response.  It is very much appreciated sir.  A
brief follow-up to your commentary.  The charter of David II to
William Dishington who, I believe, is the grandfather of Thomas
Dishington, is found in ‘The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland,
1306-1424’, (1912), edited by John Maitland Thomson, no. 327 - p.
114/no. 1593 - p. 621)
(https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101038096846&view=2up&seq=144&size=200)
The terminology employed in the charter is "Sciatis dedisse, etc.,
dilecto consanguineo nostro Willelmo de Dysschyntona militi".
The charter text is not on p. 621 of the 1912 revised edition, where it
"1593. Carte Willielmi de Dischingtoun de terris de Kinbrathmont."
and
"(4) To William Dishingtoun, of the lands of Kinbrackmont, vicecomitetu
de Fyfe, quhilk Walter Bisset resigned. Fyfe [327]"
Where do you find the passage quoted above?
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
The reference to the individual who I believe to be Thomas’ father
is found in ‘Collections for a History of the Shires of Aberdeen and
Banff’, Volume I, (1843), by Joseph Robertson, pp. 511-513.
(https://books.google.ca/books?id=iSlXAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA512&lpg=PA512&dq=%22de+dyssynton%22&source=bl&ots=kxzChxPuBQ&sig=ACfU3U35hU1usCfwXMCpIEquEJdifuJjOA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLkcuHirXpAhVjhXIEHeZMC-EQ6AEwA3oECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22de%20dyssynton%22&f=false)
In this charter, by John, Abbot of Arbroath Abbey, to John Fraser of
the land of "Barcbennach" in "Forglen" on August 3, 1387, "Willelmo
de Dissynton filio et herede Domini Willelmi de Dyssynton militis"
is a witness.
Does any of this assist in clarifying the relationships?
It might for someone who knows more than I do, but all it tells me is
that in 1387 William Dishington (presumably the father or brother of
Thomas in November 1402) was described as son and heir of Sir William
Dishington.
Peter Stewart
Hi Peter, the charter is no. 327 on p. 114.  Thanks!
Thanks Peter - I should have found this for myself with the perfectly
adequate information you gave.
The charter dated 18 September would be in 1368 rather 1369 unless I am
miscounting or using the wrong starting point for David II's reign - if
counting from the death of his father then he came to the throne in June
1329 so that September in his fortieth year would be in 1368. But I know
nothing of his chancery's practice and maybe they counted his reign from
a different date.
In any event, the question that occurs to me is: Which William
Dishington did he call his blood kinsman (consanguineo nostro) in 1369?
If this was the father of William in 1387, and father or grandfather of
Thomas in 1402, then Robert III's "nepoti nostro" for Thomas can't very
well mean "nephew" unless his parents made a consanguineous marriage. If
on the other hand Thomas in 1402 and the younger William in 1387 were
brothers, and old enough that the younger William was also the man in
the 1368/69 charter, then the charter evidence quoted so far would still
be consistent with a sister of Robert II (i.e. a granddaughter of Robert
I) marrying the elder William Dishington in the 1330s or 1340s.
My set of eyes is not useful on this question as I know nothing about
the Dishington family chronology independently of these charters and
statements about some others that I haven't seen.
Sorry, Peter - this is what comes of turning a wool-gatherer's brain
such as mine to a subject I know nothing about.

If it was a sister of Robert II who married the elder William
Dishington, then Robert III would have been using "nepos" for a cousin
rather than a nephew if he addressed a charter to William the younger,
who was already knighted in 1368/69.

The Stewart chronology barely (if at all) allows for a sister of Robert
III to have had a son who was knighted by 1368/69.

In this case the evidence may be consistent (though not yet
compellingly) with the less well-supported statements that it was a
sister of Robert I who married into the Dishington family.

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2020-06-01 05:59:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Thanks again Peter. One last follow-up if you don’t mind. I’ve noted that king David II of Scotland’s 2nd wife was Margaret Drummond (b c 1330, Perthshire) daughter of Malcolm Drummond and Margaret Graham.

Margaret Drummond’s brother, Sir John Drummond (b c 1320), 11th of Lennox, was the father of Annabella Drummond (b c 1350, Dunfermline) who was the wife of king Robert III.

Is it possible that William II Dishington’s relationship to David II and his (likely) grandson Thomas’ relationship to Robert III is via both David II and Robert III’s wives (Margaret and Annabella Drummond – aunt and niece – respectively)?

Possibly, William II married a sister of David II’s wife Margaret Drummond?

Alternatively, do the descriptions of the relationship between William II Dishington and David II (“Sciatis dedisse, etc., Dilecto Consanguineo Nostro Willelmo de Dysschyntona militi” [in 1369]) and Thomas Dishington and Robert III (“Sciatis nos dedisse concessisse et hac presenti carta nostra confirmasse dilecto nepoti nostro Thome de Dischingtoun” [in 1402]), and the usage of such terminology at that time, effectively exclude the above non-blood relationships?

I welcome your thoughts when you have a free moment, acknowledging and respecting your prior caveat that you are not familiar with the Dishington family specifically. Thank you.

Cheers,

Pete
Peter Stewart
2020-06-01 06:59:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Thanks again Peter. One last follow-up if you don’t mind. I’ve noted that king David II of Scotland’s 2nd wife was Margaret Drummond (b c 1330, Perthshire) daughter of Malcolm Drummond and Margaret Graham.
Margaret Drummond’s brother, Sir John Drummond (b c 1320), 11th of Lennox, was the father of Annabella Drummond (b c 1350, Dunfermline) who was the wife of king Robert III.
Is it possible that William II Dishington’s relationship to David II and his (likely) grandson Thomas’ relationship to Robert III is via both David II and Robert III’s wives (Margaret and Annabella Drummond – aunt and niece – respectively)?
Possibly, William II married a sister of David II’s wife Margaret Drummond?
Alternatively, do the descriptions of the relationship between William II Dishington and David II (“Sciatis dedisse, etc., Dilecto Consanguineo Nostro Willelmo de Dysschyntona militi” [in 1369]) and Thomas Dishington and Robert III (“Sciatis nos dedisse concessisse et hac presenti carta nostra confirmasse dilecto nepoti nostro Thome de Dischingtoun” [in 1402]), and the usage of such terminology at that time, effectively exclude the above non-blood relationships?
I welcome your thoughts when you have a free moment, acknowledging and respecting your prior caveat that you are not familiar with the Dishington family specifically. Thank you.
I'm also not familiar with usages in Scottish royal charters from the
14th century. However, I don't think that either "consanguineus"
(literally = blood relative) or "nepos" (= grandson, nephew, possibly a
more distant younger relative) would be habitually if ever used for
connections by marriage.

Modern usage extends "nephew" to the blood-relative of the spouse, i.e.
to the son of a brother- or sister-in-law, and I suppose this can't be
excluded for the charter of Robert III referring to Thomas Dishington
though I would say it is implausible. However, without seeing other
examples I still think it somewhat unlikely that "nepos" was used in
this instance for an unspecified relative who would have been fairly
distant if the connection came through (or only through) a sister of the
king's great-grandfather Robert I.

If a sister of Robert III married the father of Thomas Dishington, the
use of "nepos" would make straightforward sense. This doesn't absolutely
preclude another relationship through a sister of Robert I, leading to
David II's description of an earlier Dishington as his blood relative,
but such a double connection would involve an exceptional second-cousin
marriage that is very hard to credit without clear proof.

So the likelihood seems to be that "consanguieus" in the first charter
means strictly what it says, while "nepos" in the second was used
loosely. This doesn't quite prove that the relationship was through a
sister of Robert I as asserted by some historians, but they may be right
and evidence directly showing this may exist. I'm not able to give a
useful opinion on the chances of a royal charter floating about that has
escaped publication, or at least readily-verifiable citation, until now.

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2020-06-06 06:40:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Greetings,

I’ve found another interesting item regarding the Dishington family of Ardross in which Thomas Dishington’s purported son John appears to be described as a “cousin” of King James III of Scotland on November 22, 1469.

The Records of the Parliaments of Scotland to 1707, K.M. Brown et al eds, A1469/2 (https://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/A1469/2) states that on November 22, 1469 "John Dishington of Ardross" sat on an assize assembled to judge whether Alexander Boyd of Drumcoll, knight, was guilty of treason against King James III. The Assize is described as follows:

“... the said Alexander absolutely denied that charge, and submitted to the judgement of the underwritten assise, namely, our cousins David [Lindsay], earl of Crawford; James [Douglas], earl of Morton; William [Abernethy], lord Abernethy; George [Seton], lord Seton; George [Gordon], lord Gordon; Alexander [Lyon], lord Glamis; George [Haliburton], lord Haliburton [of Dirleton]; Walter [Stewart], lord Lorn; John Dishington of Ardross; Archibald Dundas of that Ilk; John Stewart of Craigie; William [Calder], thane of Cawdor; Alexander Straiton of Lauriston; John Wardlaw of Riccarton; and George Campbell of Loudoun, our sheriff of Ayr."

While I’m uncertain to whom the description “cousins” relates, many of the foregoing appear to be related to James III via, unsurprisingly, the Stewart family.

I’m curious if this provides any further insight into the relationship between the Dishington family and the Scottish royal family. Any insight or comments would be very much appreciated.

Cheers,

Pete
pdale (at) peterdale (dot) com
Peter Stewart
2020-06-06 07:00:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings,
I’ve found another interesting item regarding the Dishington family of Ardross in which Thomas Dishington’s purported son John appears to be described as a “cousin” of King James III of Scotland on November 22, 1469.
“... the said Alexander absolutely denied that charge, and submitted to the judgement of the underwritten assise, namely, our cousins David [Lindsay], earl of Crawford; James [Douglas], earl of Morton; William [Abernethy], lord Abernethy; George [Seton], lord Seton; George [Gordon], lord Gordon; Alexander [Lyon], lord Glamis; George [Haliburton], lord Haliburton [of Dirleton]; Walter [Stewart], lord Lorn; John Dishington of Ardross; Archibald Dundas of that Ilk; John Stewart of Craigie; William [Calder], thane of Cawdor; Alexander Straiton of Lauriston; John Wardlaw of Riccarton; and George Campbell of Loudoun, our sheriff of Ayr."
While I’m uncertain to whom the description “cousins” relates, many of the foregoing appear to be related to James III via, unsurprisingly, the Stewart family.
I’m curious if this provides any further insight into the relationship between the Dishington family and the Scottish royal family. Any insight or comments would be very much appreciated.
I don't see how this can add evidence one way or the other - unless even
the last-named, George Campbell, was also cousin James III then clearly
there must have been a cut-off point for the relationship statement.
This may have been nothing more than a diplomatic courtesy to the two
earls named first.

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2020-06-06 07:57:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Hi Peter,

Thanks for responding. I believe that the mother of "George Campbell of Loudoun, our sheriff of Ayr" may have been Elizabeth Stewart, who is said to have been a daughter of Sir Alan Stewart Lord Darnley. See:

1. ‘The peerage of Scotland’, (1694-1770), by Robert Douglas, p. 424 states “XII Sir George Campbell of Louldoun, high sheriff of Air … married – Stewart, [Crawfurd’s peerage], a daughter of the family of Darnly …” (https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/ecco/004896980.0001.000/1:159?rgn=div1;view=fulltext); and

2. https://gw.geneanet.org/natoab?lang=en&iz=0&p=elizabeth&n=stewart&oc=11.

However, I have not independently confirmed/corroborated his parentage.

Cheers,

Pete
Peter Stewart
2020-06-06 10:48:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Hi Peter,
1. ‘The peerage of Scotland’, (1694-1770), by Robert Douglas, p. 424 states “XII Sir George Campbell of Louldoun, high sheriff of Air … married – Stewart, [Crawfurd’s peerage], a daughter of the family of Darnly …” (https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/ecco/004896980.0001.000/1:159?rgn=div1;view=fulltext); and
2. https://gw.geneanet.org/natoab?lang=en&iz=0&p=elizabeth&n=stewart&oc=11.
However, I have not independently confirmed/corroborated his parentage.
The list has 15 names, and even proving that all of them apart from John
Dishington were definitely cousins of James III does not conclusively
prove that he was one too. Unless you can somehow establish that James
meant he was, this will involve a lot of trouble for very little return.

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2020-06-07 03:31:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Hi Peter,

Understood. However, since his purported father was described as “dilecto nepoti nostro Thome de Dischingtoun” by Robert III I found this item interesting as possibly corroborative evidence of a familial relationship. I agree that it does not conclusively prove anything. I’m interested in trying to identify how the Dishington family was related to David II and Robert III, respectively, and assembling evidence that may shed more light on that line of inquiry.

Cheers,

Pete
Peter Stewart
2020-06-07 04:54:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Hi Peter,
Understood. However, since his purported father was described as “dilecto nepoti nostro Thome de Dischingtoun” by Robert III I found this item interesting as possibly corroborative evidence of a familial relationship. I agree that it does not conclusively prove anything. I’m interested in trying to identify how the Dishington family was related to David II and Robert III, respectively, and assembling evidence that may shed more light on that line of inquiry.
It is possibly corroborative evidence, but the trouble is with trying to substantiate the possibility. I doubt that this is strong enough to be worth pursuing, given that James III was three generations further down from Robert I de Brus than was Robert III, and it is almost inconceivable that he assembled a group of 15 kinsmen (or that they coincidentally came together) in order to judge a case of treason (which kings' kinsmen were in general at least as likely to commit as most other subjects anyway).

Peter Stewart
Peter G. M. Dale
2020-06-07 05:23:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Hi Peter,
Understood. However, since his purported father was described as “dilecto nepoti nostro Thome de Dischingtoun” by Robert III I found this item interesting as possibly corroborative evidence of a familial relationship. I agree that it does not conclusively prove anything. I’m interested in trying to identify how the Dishington family was related to David II and Robert III, respectively, and assembling evidence that may shed more light on that line of inquiry.
It is possibly corroborative evidence, but the trouble is with trying to substantiate the possibility. I doubt that this is strong enough to be worth pursuing, given that James III was three generations further down from Robert I de Brus than was Robert III, and it is almost inconceivable that he assembled a group of 15 kinsmen (or that they coincidentally came together) in order to judge a case of treason (which kings' kinsmen were in general at least as likely to commit as most other subjects anyway).
Peter Stewart
Understood. Thx Peter for assisting. It is appreciated!

Cheers,

Pete
Peter G. M. Dale
2020-06-26 06:29:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Greetings,

I’ve been pondering further the relationship between Thomas Dishington (b c 1380) and King Robert III of Scotland as set forth in the charter below. I’ve also been considering Peter Stewart’s observation that Thomas’ father William was not likewise described as a relative. This leads me to speculate that perhaps Thomas’ mother was an illegitimate daughter of King Robert II who, as I understand it, had a plethora of illegitimate children. This would result in a literal interpretation of “nepos” and also explain the lack of familial description of William III, father of Thomas. Thus, I set forth below a few follow-up questions and welcome any commentary thereon.

1. Is it a reasonable assumption to conclude that Thomas is a blood nephew of Robert III based on the charter below?

2. While William III is not described as a relative by Robert III in his charter to Thomas Dishington, William III’s father William II is described as "Sciatis dedisse, etc., dilecto consanguineo nostro Willelmo de Dysschyntona militi" in a charter of King David II. In the event the relationship between William II and David II is via the Bruce family (William II is a purported son of a sister of Robert the Bruce), would one expect Robert III, who is a great-grandson of Robert the Bruce, to also describe William III as a relative in the charter below? (‘The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1306-1424’, (1912), edited by John Maitland Thomson, no. 327 - p. 114/no. 1593 - p. 621, https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101038096846&view=2up&seq=144&size=200)

3. What other reasonable interpretation can there be for the description of Thomas by Robert III in light of David II’s description of William II?

4. Is it possible and, more importantly, likely that William III (purported grandson of a sister of Robert the Bruce) would marry a 2nd cousin, i.e. an illegitimate daughter of Robert II?

Cheers,

Pete
pdale (at) peterdale (dot) com

Thomas Dishington (b c 1375), son of William III and grandson of William II Dishington, received a charter from Robert III in which he is described as his nephew or close male relative “dilecto nepoti nostro”.

“ADDENDA. The two following Extracts have come to the editor’s knowledge since Appendix I. was printed off. REGNANTE ROBERTO TERTIO. EX ROTULO LXXVIII. [1]. [Carta Thome de Dischingtoun.]l Robertus Dei gratia rex Scotorum omnibus probis hominibus totins terre sue clericis et laicis salutem. Sciatis nos dedisse concessisse et hac presenti carta nostra confirmasse dilecto nepoti nostro Thome de Dischingtoun, totas et integras terras baronie de Ardros cum pertinentiis, jacentes infra vicecomitatum de Fyff • que fuerunt Willelmi de Dischingtoun militis patris sui, et quas idem Willelmus non vi aut metu ductus nec errore lapsus sed sua mera et spontanea voluntate per literas suas resignationis cum fuste et baculo in presentia testium subscriptorum nobis sursum dedit pureque et simpliciter resignavit ac totum jus et clameum que in dictis terris cum pertinentiis habuit quitum clamavit imperpetuum • Tenendas et habendas predictas terras cum pertinentiis eidem Thome et heredibus suis de nobis et heredibus nostris in feodo et hereditate imperpetuum per omnes rectas metas et divisas suas antiquas in boscis planis moris marresiis aquis stagnis viis semitis pratis pascuis et pasturis molen- dinis multuris et eorum sequelis cum curiis et escaetis et earum exitibus cum aucupationibus venationibus et piscariis petariis et turbariis ac omnibus aliis com- moditatibus libertatibus aisiamentis ac justis suis pertinentiis quibuscunque tam sub terra quam supra terram tam non nomi- natis quam nominatis procul et prope ad dictas terras cum pertinentiis spectantibus sen juste spectare valentibus quomodolibet in futurum libere quiete plenarie integre honorifice bene et in pace • Reddendo nobis et heredibus nostris dictus Thomas et heredes sui de dictis terris cum per- tinentiis unum denarium argenti annuatim apud maneriem de Ardros ad festum Penthecostes nomine albefirme si petatur tantum pro wardis releviis et maritagiis sectis curie oneribus secularibus servitiis exactionibus seu demandis que de dictis terris cum pertinentiis in futurum exigi poterunt aliqualiter vel requiri • Reser- vato tamen liberotenemento dictarum terrarum cum pertinentiis dicto Willelmo patri suo pro toto tempore vite sue. In cujus rei testimonium presenti carte nostre sigillum nostrum precepimus apponi. Testibus carissimo fratre nostro Waltero comite de Catnes, Johanne Senescalli de Achingown filio nostro naturali, Johanne Berclay de Kyppow, Alexandro Vaus, Willelmo Joos capellano nostro, Thoma de Leky et Jacobo de Dalrumpill clerico nostro. Apud Southenan, vicesimo octavo die mensis Novembris anno Domini millesimo quadringentesimo secundo et regni nostri anno tertio decimo. [1] From Extract, certified by Mr. John Skene clerk register, in Elie charter chest.”

(‘The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1306-1424’, New Edition, (1912), edited by John Maitland Thomson, p. 651. Web Address –
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101038096846&view=2up&seq=680&size=150) 
Peter G. M. Dale
2020-06-26 21:12:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter G. M. Dale
Greetings,
I’ve been pondering further the relationship between Thomas Dishington (b c 1380) and King Robert III of Scotland as set forth in the charter below. I’ve also been considering Peter Stewart’s observation that Thomas’ father William was not likewise described as a relative. This leads me to speculate that perhaps Thomas’ mother was an illegitimate daughter of King Robert II who, as I understand it, had a plethora of illegitimate children. This would result in a literal interpretation of “nepos” and also explain the lack of familial description of William III, father of Thomas. Thus, I set forth below a few follow-up questions and welcome any commentary thereon.
1. Is it a reasonable assumption to conclude that Thomas is a blood nephew of Robert III based on the charter below?
2. While William III is not described as a relative by Robert III in his charter to Thomas Dishington, William III’s father William II is described as "Sciatis dedisse, etc., dilecto consanguineo nostro Willelmo de Dysschyntona militi" in a charter of King David II. In the event the relationship between William II and David II is via the Bruce family (William II is a purported son of a sister of Robert the Bruce), would one expect Robert III, who is a great-grandson of Robert the Bruce, to also describe William III as a relative in the charter below? (‘The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1306-1424’, (1912), edited by John Maitland Thomson, no. 327 - p. 114/no. 1593 - p. 621, https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101038096846&view=2up&seq=144&size=200)
3. What other reasonable interpretation can there be for the description of Thomas by Robert III in light of David II’s description of William II?
4. Is it possible and, more importantly, likely that William III (purported grandson of a sister of Robert the Bruce) would marry a 2nd cousin, i.e. an illegitimate daughter of Robert II?
Cheers,
Pete
pdale (at) peterdale (dot) com
Thomas Dishington (b c 1375), son of William III and grandson of William II Dishington, received a charter from Robert III in which he is described as his nephew or close male relative “dilecto nepoti nostro”.
“ADDENDA. The two following Extracts have come to the editor’s knowledge since Appendix I. was printed off. REGNANTE ROBERTO TERTIO. EX ROTULO LXXVIII. [1]. [Carta Thome de Dischingtoun.]l Robertus Dei gratia rex Scotorum omnibus probis hominibus totins terre sue clericis et laicis salutem. Sciatis nos dedisse concessisse et hac presenti carta nostra confirmasse dilecto nepoti nostro Thome de Dischingtoun, totas et integras terras baronie de Ardros cum pertinentiis, jacentes infra vicecomitatum de Fyff • que fuerunt Willelmi de Dischingtoun militis patris sui, et quas idem Willelmus non vi aut metu ductus nec errore lapsus sed sua mera et spontanea voluntate per literas suas resignationis cum fuste et baculo in presentia testium subscriptorum nobis sursum dedit pureque et simpliciter resignavit ac totum jus et clameum que in dictis terris cum pertinentiis habuit quitum clamavit imperpetuum • Tenendas et habendas predictas terras cum pertinentiis eidem Thome et heredibus suis de nobis et heredibus nostris in feodo et hereditate imperpetuum per omnes rectas metas et divisas suas antiquas in boscis planis moris marresiis aquis stagnis viis semitis pratis pascuis et pasturis molen- dinis multuris et eorum sequelis cum curiis et escaetis et earum exitibus cum aucupationibus venationibus et piscariis petariis et turbariis ac omnibus aliis com- moditatibus libertatibus aisiamentis ac justis suis pertinentiis quibuscunque tam sub terra quam supra terram tam non nomi- natis quam nominatis procul et prope ad dictas terras cum pertinentiis spectantibus sen juste spectare valentibus quomodolibet in futurum libere quiete plenarie integre honorifice bene et in pace • Reddendo nobis et heredibus nostris dictus Thomas et heredes sui de dictis terris cum per- tinentiis unum denarium argenti annuatim apud maneriem de Ardros ad festum Penthecostes nomine albefirme si petatur tantum pro wardis releviis et maritagiis sectis curie oneribus secularibus servitiis exactionibus seu demandis que de dictis terris cum pertinentiis in futurum exigi poterunt aliqualiter vel requiri • Reser- vato tamen liberotenemento dictarum terrarum cum pertinentiis dicto Willelmo patri suo pro toto tempore vite sue. In cujus rei testimonium presenti carte nostre sigillum nostrum precepimus apponi. Testibus carissimo fratre nostro Waltero comite de Catnes, Johanne Senescalli de Achingown filio nostro naturali, Johanne Berclay de Kyppow, Alexandro Vaus, Willelmo Joos capellano nostro, Thoma de Leky et Jacobo de Dalrumpill clerico nostro. Apud Southenan, vicesimo octavo die mensis Novembris anno Domini millesimo quadringentesimo secundo et regni nostri anno tertio decimo. [1] From Extract, certified by Mr. John Skene clerk register, in Elie charter chest.”
(‘The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1306-1424’, New Edition, (1912), edited by John Maitland Thomson, p. 651. Web Address –
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101038096846&view=2up&seq=680&size=150) 
There must be similar scenarios, as set forth here, that other participants in the soc.gen.med forum have encountered with the same descriptions used to address Thomas Dishington (dilecto nepoti nostro by king Robert III) and his father William II Dishington (dilecto consanguineo nostro by king David II).

Any thoughts, commentary or feedback on the four questions I posed earlier would be much appreciated!

Cheers,

Pete

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