Discussion:
Parents of William de la Pole of Hull (d.1366)
(too old to reply)
w***@gmail.com
2020-08-01 10:57:13 UTC
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The parentage of Richard de la Pole and his brother William de la Pole (d. 1366), chief baron of the exchequer and ancestor of the Dukes of Suffolk has long been the subject of debate. Harvey comments that “Neither their parentage nor place of origin seem to have been revealed by the brothers and these remain unsolved mysteries.”[1]

I believe I have come across conclusive evidence of their parents’ names:

On 6 October 1331 Nicholas de Acton bought a carucate of land in Wistanstow from Philip, son of William, son of Philip de Wystanstowe, and Agnes, his wife.[2]

On 11 April 1333 "William son of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" quitclaimed to Nicholas de Acton, parson of the church of Wistanstow “All rights in all lands and tenements which Nicholas has by a gift of Philip son of William de Wystanstowe and Agnes his wife, mother of the aforesaid William son of William”.[3]

Here William de la Pole is recorded with the alias ‘le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone’ (presumably a transcription error for ‘Kingestone’ i.e. Kingston upon Hull) and he was recorded with the alias ‘le Chaumberleyn’ on at least one other occasion.[4] This informs us that William de la Pole’s father was called William, his mother was called Agnes and his stepfather was Philip of Wistanstow.

Nicholas was a member of the Acton family (later of Aldenham) and had a long career in the king’s service, becoming chamberlain of the exchequer in 1330.[5] In 1329 he was notably appointed deputy to Richard de la Pole, Chief Butler, in all ports in North Wales.[6] Nicholas complimented his civil career with ecclesiastical appointments, serving as rector of Silverton 1322-1328,[7] [8] parson of Wistanstow 1328-1336 [9] and ended his days with a prebend in Bridgnorth 1336-1339.[10] An entry in the Memoranda Rolls proves that the priest and the civil servant were the same man.[11]

The Shropshire connection is an interesting one and lends a little weight to the thought that the de la Poles of Hull had a connection to the Welsh family of that name.


[1] Harvey, A. S. (1957) The de la Pole Family of Kingston upon Hull. p. 2. http://www.eylhs.org.uk/dl/115/the-de-la-pole-family-of-hull

[2] CP 25/1/194/11, number 34. http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_194_11.shtml#34

[3] Shropshire Archives 1093/2/547. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/5640b0ac-c9a0-4dbb-a254-dff32e97444b

[4] TNA SC 8/265/13225. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9517172

[5] Mortimer, Richard Hugh Roger. (1990) Lordship and patronage: John Darcy and the Dublin administration 1324-47. pp. 258-259. Durham E-Theses Online. https://core.ac.uk/reader/9641126

[6] Calendar of the Patent Rolls. Edward III. 1327-1330. p. 465. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031081071&view=1up&seq=483

[7] The register of Walter de Stapeldon, bishop of Exeter, (A.D. 1307-1326). Vol. 2. p. 260. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044081217556&view=1up&seq=310

[8] The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369). p. 1263. https://archive.org/details/registerofjohnde03exet/page/1262/mode/2up

[9] The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369). p. 1263. https://archive.org/details/registerofjohnde03exet/page/1262/mode/2up

[10] Mortimer, Richard Hugh Roger. (1990) Lordship and patronage: John Darcy and the Dublin administration 1324-47. pp. 258-259. Durham E-Theses Online. https://core.ac.uk/reader/9641126

[11] List of Welsh entries in the Memoranda Rolls, 1282-1343. p. 75.
“A day for account is given to Nicholas Acton, parson of Wystaneston, chamberlain of North Wales. (E. 159/106, m.246d.)”


William Acton
Vance Mead
2020-08-01 15:05:06 UTC
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Not sure how this will connect, but here is an entry from Common Pleas in 1349.


Yorkshire. Thomas de Chaworth, knight, with a writ of trespass versus William de la Pole, knight, junior. Robert Port (?) of Kingston on Hull and Richard de Camera give surety.


http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E3/CP40no359/aCP40no359mm1toEnd/IMG_8661.htm
Vance Mead
2020-08-01 15:19:24 UTC
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Here are two more entries, also from 1349, both with Thomas de Chaworth as plaintiff.

Nhants. Thomas de Chaworth, knight, with a writ of account versus William son of Richard de la Pole, knight. Elias (?) de Milton and John le Bailiff give surety.

Hunts. Thomas de Chaworth & Margaret his wife, with a writ of detinue charter versus William de la Pole, knight, junior. Richard Ulbred (?) and John de Jakesle give surety.


First two entries under the bar:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E3/CP40no359/bCP40no359mm1dtoEnd/IMG_8972.htm
w***@gmail.com
2020-08-02 08:28:48 UTC
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Post by Vance Mead
Here are two more entries, also from 1349, both with Thomas de Chaworth as plaintiff.
Nhants. Thomas de Chaworth, knight, with a writ of account versus William son of Richard de la Pole, knight. Elias (?) de Milton and John le Bailiff give surety.
Hunts. Thomas de Chaworth & Margaret his wife, with a writ of detinue charter versus William de la Pole, knight, junior. Richard Ulbred (?) and John de Jakesle give surety.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E3/CP40no359/bCP40no359mm1dtoEnd/IMG_8972.htm
I think these are references to William de la Pole (d.1366) and his nephew William. They were known as William senior and William junior. Their relationship is well attested, but the parentage of the elder William has never been proven.
John Higgins
2020-08-01 23:02:13 UTC
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Post by w***@gmail.com
The parentage of Richard de la Pole and his brother William de la Pole (d. 1366), chief baron of the exchequer and ancestor of the Dukes of Suffolk has long been the subject of debate. Harvey comments that “Neither their parentage nor place of origin seem to have been revealed by the brothers and these remain unsolved mysteries.”[1]
On 6 October 1331 Nicholas de Acton bought a carucate of land in Wistanstow from Philip, son of William, son of Philip de Wystanstowe, and Agnes, his wife.[2]
On 11 April 1333 "William son of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" quitclaimed to Nicholas de Acton, parson of the church of Wistanstow “All rights in all lands and tenements which Nicholas has by a gift of Philip son of William de Wystanstowe and Agnes his wife, mother of the aforesaid William son of William”.[3]
Here William de la Pole is recorded with the alias ‘le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone’ (presumably a transcription error for ‘Kingestone’ i.e. Kingston upon Hull) and he was recorded with the alias ‘le Chaumberleyn’ on at least one other occasion.[4] This informs us that William de la Pole’s father was called William, his mother was called Agnes and his stepfather was Philip of Wistanstow.
Nicholas was a member of the Acton family (later of Aldenham) and had a long career in the king’s service, becoming chamberlain of the exchequer in 1330.[5] In 1329 he was notably appointed deputy to Richard de la Pole, Chief Butler, in all ports in North Wales.[6] Nicholas complimented his civil career with ecclesiastical appointments, serving as rector of Silverton 1322-1328,[7] [8] parson of Wistanstow 1328-1336 [9] and ended his days with a prebend in Bridgnorth 1336-1339.[10] An entry in the Memoranda Rolls proves that the priest and the civil servant were the same man.[11]
The Shropshire connection is an interesting one and lends a little weight to the thought that the de la Poles of Hull had a connection to the Welsh family of that name.
[1] Harvey, A. S. (1957) The de la Pole Family of Kingston upon Hull. p. 2. http://www.eylhs.org.uk/dl/115/the-de-la-pole-family-of-hull
[2] CP 25/1/194/11, number 34. http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_194_11.shtml#34
[3] Shropshire Archives 1093/2/547. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/5640b0ac-c9a0-4dbb-a254-dff32e97444b
[4] TNA SC 8/265/13225. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9517172
[5] Mortimer, Richard Hugh Roger. (1990) Lordship and patronage: John Darcy and the Dublin administration 1324-47. pp. 258-259. Durham E-Theses Online. https://core.ac.uk/reader/9641126
[6] Calendar of the Patent Rolls. Edward III. 1327-1330. p. 465. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031081071&view=1up&seq=483
[7] The register of Walter de Stapeldon, bishop of Exeter, (A.D. 1307-1326). Vol. 2. p. 260. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044081217556&view=1up&seq=310
[8] The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369). p. 1263. https://archive.org/details/registerofjohnde03exet/page/1262/mode/2up
[9] The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369). p. 1263. https://archive.org/details/registerofjohnde03exet/page/1262/mode/2up
[10] Mortimer, Richard Hugh Roger. (1990) Lordship and patronage: John Darcy and the Dublin administration 1324-47. pp. 258-259. Durham E-Theses Online. https://core.ac.uk/reader/9641126
[11] List of Welsh entries in the Memoranda Rolls, 1282-1343. p. 75.
“A day for account is given to Nicholas Acton, parson of Wystaneston, chamberlain of North Wales. (E. 159/106, m.246d.)”
William Acton
Perhaps I've missed something here, but how is it known that "William son of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" is the same person as William de la Pole (d. 1366)? And how is it known that "William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" in the 1333 reference is the same person as ""William le Chaumberleyn" [sic - no reference to "Kingeslone"] in the 1325 reference?
w***@gmail.com
2020-08-02 09:05:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Higgins
Post by w***@gmail.com
The parentage of Richard de la Pole and his brother William de la Pole (d. 1366), chief baron of the exchequer and ancestor of the Dukes of Suffolk has long been the subject of debate. Harvey comments that “Neither their parentage nor place of origin seem to have been revealed by the brothers and these remain unsolved mysteries.”[1]
On 6 October 1331 Nicholas de Acton bought a carucate of land in Wistanstow from Philip, son of William, son of Philip de Wystanstowe, and Agnes, his wife.[2]
On 11 April 1333 "William son of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" quitclaimed to Nicholas de Acton, parson of the church of Wistanstow “All rights in all lands and tenements which Nicholas has by a gift of Philip son of William de Wystanstowe and Agnes his wife, mother of the aforesaid William son of William”.[3]
Here William de la Pole is recorded with the alias ‘le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone’ (presumably a transcription error for ‘Kingestone’ i.e. Kingston upon Hull) and he was recorded with the alias ‘le Chaumberleyn’ on at least one other occasion.[4] This informs us that William de la Pole’s father was called William, his mother was called Agnes and his stepfather was Philip of Wistanstow.
Nicholas was a member of the Acton family (later of Aldenham) and had a long career in the king’s service, becoming chamberlain of the exchequer in 1330.[5] In 1329 he was notably appointed deputy to Richard de la Pole, Chief Butler, in all ports in North Wales.[6] Nicholas complimented his civil career with ecclesiastical appointments, serving as rector of Silverton 1322-1328,[7] [8] parson of Wistanstow 1328-1336 [9] and ended his days with a prebend in Bridgnorth 1336-1339.[10] An entry in the Memoranda Rolls proves that the priest and the civil servant were the same man.[11]
The Shropshire connection is an interesting one and lends a little weight to the thought that the de la Poles of Hull had a connection to the Welsh family of that name.
[1] Harvey, A. S. (1957) The de la Pole Family of Kingston upon Hull. p. 2. http://www.eylhs.org.uk/dl/115/the-de-la-pole-family-of-hull
[2] CP 25/1/194/11, number 34. http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_194_11.shtml#34
[3] Shropshire Archives 1093/2/547. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/5640b0ac-c9a0-4dbb-a254-dff32e97444b
[4] TNA SC 8/265/13225. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9517172
[5] Mortimer, Richard Hugh Roger. (1990) Lordship and patronage: John Darcy and the Dublin administration 1324-47. pp. 258-259. Durham E-Theses Online. https://core.ac.uk/reader/9641126
[6] Calendar of the Patent Rolls. Edward III. 1327-1330. p. 465. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031081071&view=1up&seq=483
[7] The register of Walter de Stapeldon, bishop of Exeter, (A.D. 1307-1326). Vol. 2. p. 260. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044081217556&view=1up&seq=310
[8] The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369). p. 1263. https://archive.org/details/registerofjohnde03exet/page/1262/mode/2up
[9] The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369). p. 1263. https://archive.org/details/registerofjohnde03exet/page/1262/mode/2up
[10] Mortimer, Richard Hugh Roger. (1990) Lordship and patronage: John Darcy and the Dublin administration 1324-47. pp. 258-259. Durham E-Theses Online. https://core.ac.uk/reader/9641126
[11] List of Welsh entries in the Memoranda Rolls, 1282-1343. p. 75.
“A day for account is given to Nicholas Acton, parson of Wystaneston, chamberlain of North Wales. (E. 159/106, m.246d.)”
William Acton
Perhaps I've missed something here, but how is it known that "William son of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" is the same person as William de la Pole (d. 1366)? And how is it known that "William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" in the 1333 reference is the same person as ""William le Chaumberleyn" [sic - no reference to "Kingeslone"] in the 1325 reference?
It is not known. I thought the possible coidentity of William de la Pole and 'William le Chaumberleyn of Kineslone' was a consideration worth posting. I brought it here to see if it would stand up to scrutiny.

I think that the Chaumberleyn in the petition of 1325 was de la Pole because it appears to fit with his activities in Gascony at that time:

Fryde, E. B. (1988) William de la Pole: Merchant and King's Banker. p. 15.

“On two other occasions in 1325 William was apparently doing business alone and undertaking enterprises of some magnitude that anticipated some of his principal future activities. Little is known about the first and the larger of the two transactions. On 16 March 1325 William gave to the collectors of customs at Boston a receipt for £1,800. He was being repaid some advances that he had made in aid of the king’s war in Gascony. The second transaction is documented much more fully. In May 1325 William supplied £1,000 in French gold coins for Edward II’s projected journey to France to do homage to King Charles IV. This formed part of a total sum of £3,515 procured for this purpose by the king’s treasurer.”

Going against my idea, William de la Pole and his brother Richard were chamberlains of Kingston upon Hull from 1321 to 1324, so he no longer held the office in 1325 and 1333.

Also, since posting I have come across a William le Chaumberleyn who was made a deacon by Thomas de Charlton (bishop of Hereford 1327-1344):

https://sites.rootsweb.com/~stanier/library/Original%20Record/56010.pdf

The list of deacons also includes John le Whyte of Kyngestone, so perhaps I have my Kingstons muddled.
c***@gmail.com
2020-08-02 10:11:47 UTC
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Dear William -

I seriously doubt that your William son of William the Chamberlain is the same person as William de la Pole, the famous merchant of Kingston upon Hull Yorkshire, who died in 1366. In one post, you say you have conclusive evidence. In another post, you say you have possible evidence. I say you have no evidence.

The Wikipedia account of William de la Pole gives a good overall review of what is factually known of William de la Pole's origins. I advise you to start there.

There is never harm done asking questions or developing working theories. That's how long standing problems like the identity and marriages of Maud de Holand get solved. Good luck in your hunt for the origins of the de la Pole family.

Best always, Douglas Richardson
w***@gmail.com
2020-08-02 10:49:20 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Dear William -
I seriously doubt that your William son of William the Chamberlain is the same person as William de la Pole, the famous merchant of Kingston upon Hull Yorkshire, who died in 1366.
Why?
Post by c***@gmail.com
In one post, you say you have conclusive evidence. In another post, you say you have possible evidence. I say you have no evidence.
I said “I believe I have conclusive evidence” and presented it for feedback. You call it a ‘working theory’. Potato / Potato.
Post by c***@gmail.com
The Wikipedia account of William de la Pole gives a good overall review of what is factually known of William de la Pole's origins. I advise you to start there.
The Wikipedia article is largely based on Harvey and Fryde’s works so that seems like a step backwards.
Post by c***@gmail.com
There is never harm done asking questions or developing working theories. That's how long standing problems like the identity and marriages of Maud de Holand get solved. Good luck in your hunt for the origins of the de la Pole family.
Best always, Douglas Richardson
I am keen to have this 'working theory' discussed, supported with further evidence or debunked.
w***@gmail.com
2020-08-02 12:17:52 UTC
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Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by John Higgins
Post by w***@gmail.com
The parentage of Richard de la Pole and his brother William de la Pole (d. 1366), chief baron of the exchequer and ancestor of the Dukes of Suffolk has long been the subject of debate. Harvey comments that “Neither their parentage nor place of origin seem to have been revealed by the brothers and these remain unsolved mysteries.”[1]
On 6 October 1331 Nicholas de Acton bought a carucate of land in Wistanstow from Philip, son of William, son of Philip de Wystanstowe, and Agnes, his wife.[2]
On 11 April 1333 "William son of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" quitclaimed to Nicholas de Acton, parson of the church of Wistanstow “All rights in all lands and tenements which Nicholas has by a gift of Philip son of William de Wystanstowe and Agnes his wife, mother of the aforesaid William son of William”.[3]
Here William de la Pole is recorded with the alias ‘le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone’ (presumably a transcription error for ‘Kingestone’ i.e. Kingston upon Hull) and he was recorded with the alias ‘le Chaumberleyn’ on at least one other occasion.[4] This informs us that William de la Pole’s father was called William, his mother was called Agnes and his stepfather was Philip of Wistanstow.
Nicholas was a member of the Acton family (later of Aldenham) and had a long career in the king’s service, becoming chamberlain of the exchequer in 1330.[5] In 1329 he was notably appointed deputy to Richard de la Pole, Chief Butler, in all ports in North Wales.[6] Nicholas complimented his civil career with ecclesiastical appointments, serving as rector of Silverton 1322-1328,[7] [8] parson of Wistanstow 1328-1336 [9] and ended his days with a prebend in Bridgnorth 1336-1339.[10] An entry in the Memoranda Rolls proves that the priest and the civil servant were the same man.[11]
The Shropshire connection is an interesting one and lends a little weight to the thought that the de la Poles of Hull had a connection to the Welsh family of that name.
[1] Harvey, A. S. (1957) The de la Pole Family of Kingston upon Hull. p. 2. http://www.eylhs.org.uk/dl/115/the-de-la-pole-family-of-hull
[2] CP 25/1/194/11, number 34. http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_194_11.shtml#34
[3] Shropshire Archives 1093/2/547. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/5640b0ac-c9a0-4dbb-a254-dff32e97444b
[4] TNA SC 8/265/13225. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9517172
[5] Mortimer, Richard Hugh Roger. (1990) Lordship and patronage: John Darcy and the Dublin administration 1324-47. pp. 258-259. Durham E-Theses Online. https://core.ac.uk/reader/9641126
[6] Calendar of the Patent Rolls. Edward III. 1327-1330. p. 465. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031081071&view=1up&seq=483
[7] The register of Walter de Stapeldon, bishop of Exeter, (A.D. 1307-1326). Vol. 2. p. 260. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044081217556&view=1up&seq=310
[8] The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369). p. 1263. https://archive.org/details/registerofjohnde03exet/page/1262/mode/2up
[9] The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369). p. 1263. https://archive.org/details/registerofjohnde03exet/page/1262/mode/2up
[10] Mortimer, Richard Hugh Roger. (1990) Lordship and patronage: John Darcy and the Dublin administration 1324-47. pp. 258-259. Durham E-Theses Online. https://core.ac.uk/reader/9641126
[11] List of Welsh entries in the Memoranda Rolls, 1282-1343. p. 75.
“A day for account is given to Nicholas Acton, parson of Wystaneston, chamberlain of North Wales. (E. 159/106, m.246d.)”
William Acton
Perhaps I've missed something here, but how is it known that "William son of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" is the same person as William de la Pole (d. 1366)? And how is it known that "William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" in the 1333 reference is the same person as ""William le Chaumberleyn" [sic - no reference to "Kingeslone"] in the 1325 reference?
It is not known. I thought the possible coidentity of William de la Pole and 'William le Chaumberleyn of Kineslone' was a consideration worth posting. I brought it here to see if it would stand up to scrutiny.
Fryde, E. B. (1988) William de la Pole: Merchant and King's Banker. p. 15.
“On two other occasions in 1325 William was apparently doing business alone and undertaking enterprises of some magnitude that anticipated some of his principal future activities. Little is known about the first and the larger of the two transactions. On 16 March 1325 William gave to the collectors of customs at Boston a receipt for £1,800. He was being repaid some advances that he had made in aid of the king’s war in Gascony. The second transaction is documented much more fully. In May 1325 William supplied £1,000 in French gold coins for Edward II’s projected journey to France to do homage to King Charles IV. This formed part of a total sum of £3,515 procured for this purpose by the king’s treasurer.”
Going against my idea, William de la Pole and his brother Richard were chamberlains of Kingston upon Hull from 1321 to 1324, so he no longer held the office in 1325 and 1333.
https://sites.rootsweb.com/~stanier/library/Original%20Record/56010.pdf
The list of deacons also includes John le Whyte of Kyngestone, so perhaps I have my Kingstons muddled.
Another record for William le Chambirleyn in Shropshire from the accounts of Walter Seis, treaturer of Pembroke in 1327:

https://archive.org/details/PembrokeshireHistoricalAndGenealogyRecordsManorial1323-1334/page/n9/mode/2up?q=Chambirleyn

“expense of William le Chambirleyn going to Ludlow to Sir Roger de Mortimer on the lord’s business, and back, at 10d per day”

It seems unlikely that William de la Pole would have been acting as a messenger for the Earl of Pembroke in 1327; he was already lending the king £1,000s.
John Higgins
2020-08-02 19:02:45 UTC
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Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by John Higgins
Post by w***@gmail.com
The parentage of Richard de la Pole and his brother William de la Pole (d. 1366), chief baron of the exchequer and ancestor of the Dukes of Suffolk has long been the subject of debate. Harvey comments that “Neither their parentage nor place of origin seem to have been revealed by the brothers and these remain unsolved mysteries.”[1]
On 6 October 1331 Nicholas de Acton bought a carucate of land in Wistanstow from Philip, son of William, son of Philip de Wystanstowe, and Agnes, his wife.[2]
On 11 April 1333 "William son of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" quitclaimed to Nicholas de Acton, parson of the church of Wistanstow “All rights in all lands and tenements which Nicholas has by a gift of Philip son of William de Wystanstowe and Agnes his wife, mother of the aforesaid William son of William”.[3]
Here William de la Pole is recorded with the alias ‘le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone’ (presumably a transcription error for ‘Kingestone’ i.e. Kingston upon Hull) and he was recorded with the alias ‘le Chaumberleyn’ on at least one other occasion.[4] This informs us that William de la Pole’s father was called William, his mother was called Agnes and his stepfather was Philip of Wistanstow.
Nicholas was a member of the Acton family (later of Aldenham) and had a long career in the king’s service, becoming chamberlain of the exchequer in 1330.[5] In 1329 he was notably appointed deputy to Richard de la Pole, Chief Butler, in all ports in North Wales.[6] Nicholas complimented his civil career with ecclesiastical appointments, serving as rector of Silverton 1322-1328,[7] [8] parson of Wistanstow 1328-1336 [9] and ended his days with a prebend in Bridgnorth 1336-1339.[10] An entry in the Memoranda Rolls proves that the priest and the civil servant were the same man.[11]
The Shropshire connection is an interesting one and lends a little weight to the thought that the de la Poles of Hull had a connection to the Welsh family of that name.
[1] Harvey, A. S. (1957) The de la Pole Family of Kingston upon Hull. p. 2. http://www.eylhs.org.uk/dl/115/the-de-la-pole-family-of-hull
[2] CP 25/1/194/11, number 34. http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_194_11.shtml#34
[3] Shropshire Archives 1093/2/547. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/5640b0ac-c9a0-4dbb-a254-dff32e97444b
[4] TNA SC 8/265/13225. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9517172
[5] Mortimer, Richard Hugh Roger. (1990) Lordship and patronage: John Darcy and the Dublin administration 1324-47. pp. 258-259. Durham E-Theses Online. https://core.ac.uk/reader/9641126
[6] Calendar of the Patent Rolls. Edward III. 1327-1330. p. 465. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031081071&view=1up&seq=483
[7] The register of Walter de Stapeldon, bishop of Exeter, (A.D. 1307-1326). Vol. 2. p. 260. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044081217556&view=1up&seq=310
[8] The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369). p. 1263. https://archive.org/details/registerofjohnde03exet/page/1262/mode/2up
[9] The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369). p. 1263. https://archive.org/details/registerofjohnde03exet/page/1262/mode/2up
[10] Mortimer, Richard Hugh Roger. (1990) Lordship and patronage: John Darcy and the Dublin administration 1324-47. pp. 258-259. Durham E-Theses Online. https://core.ac.uk/reader/9641126
[11] List of Welsh entries in the Memoranda Rolls, 1282-1343. p. 75.
“A day for account is given to Nicholas Acton, parson of Wystaneston, chamberlain of North Wales. (E. 159/106, m.246d.)”
William Acton
Perhaps I've missed something here, but how is it known that "William son of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" is the same person as William de la Pole (d. 1366)? And how is it known that "William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" in the 1333 reference is the same person as ""William le Chaumberleyn" [sic - no reference to "Kingeslone"] in the 1325 reference?
It is not known. I thought the possible coidentity of William de la Pole and 'William le Chaumberleyn of Kineslone' was a consideration worth posting. I brought it here to see if it would stand up to scrutiny.
Fryde, E. B. (1988) William de la Pole: Merchant and King's Banker. p. 15.
“On two other occasions in 1325 William was apparently doing business alone and undertaking enterprises of some magnitude that anticipated some of his principal future activities. Little is known about the first and the larger of the two transactions. On 16 March 1325 William gave to the collectors of customs at Boston a receipt for £1,800. He was being repaid some advances that he had made in aid of the king’s war in Gascony. The second transaction is documented much more fully. In May 1325 William supplied £1,000 in French gold coins for Edward II’s projected journey to France to do homage to King Charles IV. This formed part of a total sum of £3,515 procured for this purpose by the king’s treasurer.”
Going against my idea, William de la Pole and his brother Richard were chamberlains of Kingston upon Hull from 1321 to 1324, so he no longer held the office in 1325 and 1333.
https://sites.rootsweb.com/~stanier/library/Original%20Record/56010.pdf
The list of deacons also includes John le Whyte of Kyngestone, so perhaps I have my Kingstons muddled.
https://archive.org/details/PembrokeshireHistoricalAndGenealogyRecordsManorial1323-1334/page/n9/mode/2up?q=Chambirleyn
“expense of William le Chambirleyn going to Ludlow to Sir Roger de Mortimer on the lord’s business, and back, at 10d per day”
It seems unlikely that William de la Pole would have been acting as a messenger for the Earl of Pembroke in 1327; he was already lending the king £1,000s.
The 1327 record of William le Chambirleyn and the 1333 record of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone both refer to men in Shropshire. And the "William le Chaumberleyn who was made a deacon" by the Bishop of Hereford is at least in the vicinity of Shropshire. The diocese of Hereford did and does cover at least southern Shropshire. All of these references seems to be quite far away from William de la Pole in Yorkshire.
John Higgins
2020-08-02 22:34:24 UTC
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Post by John Higgins
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The parentage of Richard de la Pole and his brother William de la Pole (d. 1366), chief baron of the exchequer and ancestor of the Dukes of Suffolk has long been the subject of debate. Harvey comments that “Neither their parentage nor place of origin seem to have been revealed by the brothers and these remain unsolved mysteries.”[1]
On 6 October 1331 Nicholas de Acton bought a carucate of land in Wistanstow from Philip, son of William, son of Philip de Wystanstowe, and Agnes, his wife.[2]
On 11 April 1333 "William son of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" quitclaimed to Nicholas de Acton, parson of the church of Wistanstow “All rights in all lands and tenements which Nicholas has by a gift of Philip son of William de Wystanstowe and Agnes his wife, mother of the aforesaid William son of William”.[3]
Here William de la Pole is recorded with the alias ‘le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone’ (presumably a transcription error for ‘Kingestone’ i.e. Kingston upon Hull) and he was recorded with the alias ‘le Chaumberleyn’ on at least one other occasion.[4] This informs us that William de la Pole’s father was called William, his mother was called Agnes and his stepfather was Philip of Wistanstow.
Nicholas was a member of the Acton family (later of Aldenham) and had a long career in the king’s service, becoming chamberlain of the exchequer in 1330.[5] In 1329 he was notably appointed deputy to Richard de la Pole, Chief Butler, in all ports in North Wales.[6] Nicholas complimented his civil career with ecclesiastical appointments, serving as rector of Silverton 1322-1328,[7] [8] parson of Wistanstow 1328-1336 [9] and ended his days with a prebend in Bridgnorth 1336-1339.[10] An entry in the Memoranda Rolls proves that the priest and the civil servant were the same man.[11]
The Shropshire connection is an interesting one and lends a little weight to the thought that the de la Poles of Hull had a connection to the Welsh family of that name.
[1] Harvey, A. S. (1957) The de la Pole Family of Kingston upon Hull. p. 2. http://www.eylhs.org.uk/dl/115/the-de-la-pole-family-of-hull
[2] CP 25/1/194/11, number 34. http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_194_11.shtml#34
[3] Shropshire Archives 1093/2/547. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/5640b0ac-c9a0-4dbb-a254-dff32e97444b
[4] TNA SC 8/265/13225. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9517172
[5] Mortimer, Richard Hugh Roger. (1990) Lordship and patronage: John Darcy and the Dublin administration 1324-47. pp. 258-259. Durham E-Theses Online. https://core.ac.uk/reader/9641126
[6] Calendar of the Patent Rolls. Edward III. 1327-1330. p. 465. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031081071&view=1up&seq=483
[7] The register of Walter de Stapeldon, bishop of Exeter, (A.D. 1307-1326). Vol. 2. p. 260. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044081217556&view=1up&seq=310
[8] The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369). p. 1263. https://archive.org/details/registerofjohnde03exet/page/1262/mode/2up
[9] The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369). p. 1263. https://archive.org/details/registerofjohnde03exet/page/1262/mode/2up
[10] Mortimer, Richard Hugh Roger. (1990) Lordship and patronage: John Darcy and the Dublin administration 1324-47. pp. 258-259. Durham E-Theses Online. https://core.ac.uk/reader/9641126
[11] List of Welsh entries in the Memoranda Rolls, 1282-1343. p. 75.
“A day for account is given to Nicholas Acton, parson of Wystaneston, chamberlain of North Wales. (E. 159/106, m.246d.)”
William Acton
Perhaps I've missed something here, but how is it known that "William son of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" is the same person as William de la Pole (d. 1366)? And how is it known that "William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" in the 1333 reference is the same person as ""William le Chaumberleyn" [sic - no reference to "Kingeslone"] in the 1325 reference?
It is not known. I thought the possible coidentity of William de la Pole and 'William le Chaumberleyn of Kineslone' was a consideration worth posting. I brought it here to see if it would stand up to scrutiny.
Fryde, E. B. (1988) William de la Pole: Merchant and King's Banker. p. 15.
“On two other occasions in 1325 William was apparently doing business alone and undertaking enterprises of some magnitude that anticipated some of his principal future activities. Little is known about the first and the larger of the two transactions. On 16 March 1325 William gave to the collectors of customs at Boston a receipt for £1,800. He was being repaid some advances that he had made in aid of the king’s war in Gascony. The second transaction is documented much more fully. In May 1325 William supplied £1,000 in French gold coins for Edward II’s projected journey to France to do homage to King Charles IV. This formed part of a total sum of £3,515 procured for this purpose by the king’s treasurer.”
Going against my idea, William de la Pole and his brother Richard were chamberlains of Kingston upon Hull from 1321 to 1324, so he no longer held the office in 1325 and 1333.
https://sites.rootsweb.com/~stanier/library/Original%20Record/56010.pdf
The list of deacons also includes John le Whyte of Kyngestone, so perhaps I have my Kingstons muddled.
https://archive.org/details/PembrokeshireHistoricalAndGenealogyRecordsManorial1323-1334/page/n9/mode/2up?q=Chambirleyn
“expense of William le Chambirleyn going to Ludlow to Sir Roger de Mortimer on the lord’s business, and back, at 10d per day”
It seems unlikely that William de la Pole would have been acting as a messenger for the Earl of Pembroke in 1327; he was already lending the king £1,000s.
The 1327 record of William le Chambirleyn and the 1333 record of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone both refer to men in Shropshire. And the "William le Chaumberleyn who was made a deacon" by the Bishop of Hereford is at least in the vicinity of Shropshire. The diocese of Hereford did and does cover at least southern Shropshire. All of these references seems to be quite far away from William de la Pole in Yorkshire.
BTW have you read Rosemary Horrox's short 1983 publication "The De La Poles of Hull"? It's an update of Harvey's 1957 work, incorporating more recent research. and was also published by the East Yorkshire Local History Society. It may available through their website (I got it that way several years ago).
g***@gmail.com
2020-08-03 05:55:40 UTC
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Post by John Higgins
BTW have you read Rosemary Horrox's short 1983 publication "The De La Poles of Hull"? It's an update of Harvey's 1957 work, incorporating more recent research. and was also published by the East Yorkshire Local History Society. It may available through their website (I got it that way several years ago).
It is
http://www.eylhs.org.uk/product/104/the-de-la-poles-of-hull
w***@gmail.com
2020-08-03 08:11:10 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by John Higgins
BTW have you read Rosemary Horrox's short 1983 publication "The De La Poles of Hull"? It's an update of Harvey's 1957 work, incorporating more recent research. and was also published by the East Yorkshire Local History Society. It may available through their website (I got it that way several years ago).
It is
http://www.eylhs.org.uk/product/104/the-de-la-poles-of-hull
I have not seen this and will get a copy, thank you John and everyone for your helpful guidance.
w***@gmail.com
2020-08-03 08:09:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Higgins
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by John Higgins
Post by w***@gmail.com
The parentage of Richard de la Pole and his brother William de la Pole (d. 1366), chief baron of the exchequer and ancestor of the Dukes of Suffolk has long been the subject of debate. Harvey comments that “Neither their parentage nor place of origin seem to have been revealed by the brothers and these remain unsolved mysteries.”[1]
On 6 October 1331 Nicholas de Acton bought a carucate of land in Wistanstow from Philip, son of William, son of Philip de Wystanstowe, and Agnes, his wife.[2]
On 11 April 1333 "William son of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" quitclaimed to Nicholas de Acton, parson of the church of Wistanstow “All rights in all lands and tenements which Nicholas has by a gift of Philip son of William de Wystanstowe and Agnes his wife, mother of the aforesaid William son of William”.[3]
Here William de la Pole is recorded with the alias ‘le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone’ (presumably a transcription error for ‘Kingestone’ i.e. Kingston upon Hull) and he was recorded with the alias ‘le Chaumberleyn’ on at least one other occasion.[4] This informs us that William de la Pole’s father was called William, his mother was called Agnes and his stepfather was Philip of Wistanstow.
Nicholas was a member of the Acton family (later of Aldenham) and had a long career in the king’s service, becoming chamberlain of the exchequer in 1330.[5] In 1329 he was notably appointed deputy to Richard de la Pole, Chief Butler, in all ports in North Wales.[6] Nicholas complimented his civil career with ecclesiastical appointments, serving as rector of Silverton 1322-1328,[7] [8] parson of Wistanstow 1328-1336 [9] and ended his days with a prebend in Bridgnorth 1336-1339.[10] An entry in the Memoranda Rolls proves that the priest and the civil servant were the same man.[11]
The Shropshire connection is an interesting one and lends a little weight to the thought that the de la Poles of Hull had a connection to the Welsh family of that name.
[1] Harvey, A. S. (1957) The de la Pole Family of Kingston upon Hull. p. 2. http://www.eylhs.org.uk/dl/115/the-de-la-pole-family-of-hull
[2] CP 25/1/194/11, number 34. http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_194_11.shtml#34
[3] Shropshire Archives 1093/2/547. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/5640b0ac-c9a0-4dbb-a254-dff32e97444b
[4] TNA SC 8/265/13225. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9517172
[5] Mortimer, Richard Hugh Roger. (1990) Lordship and patronage: John Darcy and the Dublin administration 1324-47. pp. 258-259. Durham E-Theses Online. https://core.ac.uk/reader/9641126
[6] Calendar of the Patent Rolls. Edward III. 1327-1330. p. 465. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031081071&view=1up&seq=483
[7] The register of Walter de Stapeldon, bishop of Exeter, (A.D. 1307-1326). Vol. 2. p. 260. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044081217556&view=1up&seq=310
[8] The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369). p. 1263. https://archive.org/details/registerofjohnde03exet/page/1262/mode/2up
[9] The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369). p. 1263. https://archive.org/details/registerofjohnde03exet/page/1262/mode/2up
[10] Mortimer, Richard Hugh Roger. (1990) Lordship and patronage: John Darcy and the Dublin administration 1324-47. pp. 258-259. Durham E-Theses Online. https://core.ac.uk/reader/9641126
[11] List of Welsh entries in the Memoranda Rolls, 1282-1343. p. 75.
“A day for account is given to Nicholas Acton, parson of Wystaneston, chamberlain of North Wales. (E. 159/106, m.246d.)”
William Acton
Perhaps I've missed something here, but how is it known that "William son of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" is the same person as William de la Pole (d. 1366)? And how is it known that "William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone" in the 1333 reference is the same person as ""William le Chaumberleyn" [sic - no reference to "Kingeslone"] in the 1325 reference?
It is not known. I thought the possible coidentity of William de la Pole and 'William le Chaumberleyn of Kineslone' was a consideration worth posting. I brought it here to see if it would stand up to scrutiny.
Fryde, E. B. (1988) William de la Pole: Merchant and King's Banker. p. 15.
“On two other occasions in 1325 William was apparently doing business alone and undertaking enterprises of some magnitude that anticipated some of his principal future activities. Little is known about the first and the larger of the two transactions. On 16 March 1325 William gave to the collectors of customs at Boston a receipt for £1,800. He was being repaid some advances that he had made in aid of the king’s war in Gascony. The second transaction is documented much more fully. In May 1325 William supplied £1,000 in French gold coins for Edward II’s projected journey to France to do homage to King Charles IV. This formed part of a total sum of £3,515 procured for this purpose by the king’s treasurer.”
Going against my idea, William de la Pole and his brother Richard were chamberlains of Kingston upon Hull from 1321 to 1324, so he no longer held the office in 1325 and 1333.
https://sites.rootsweb.com/~stanier/library/Original%20Record/56010.pdf
The list of deacons also includes John le Whyte of Kyngestone, so perhaps I have my Kingstons muddled.
https://archive.org/details/PembrokeshireHistoricalAndGenealogyRecordsManorial1323-1334/page/n9/mode/2up?q=Chambirleyn
“expense of William le Chambirleyn going to Ludlow to Sir Roger de Mortimer on the lord’s business, and back, at 10d per day”
It seems unlikely that William de la Pole would have been acting as a messenger for the Earl of Pembroke in 1327; he was already lending the king £1,000s.
The 1327 record of William le Chambirleyn and the 1333 record of William le Chaumberleyn of Kingeslone both refer to men in Shropshire. And the "William le Chaumberleyn who was made a deacon" by the Bishop of Hereford is at least in the vicinity of Shropshire. The diocese of Hereford did and does cover at least southern Shropshire. All of these references seems to be quite far away from William de la Pole in Yorkshire.
Agreed. And there was a Kingston in the manor of Stoke St Milborough in Shropshire:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=G1c-AQAAIAAJ&dq=kingston&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=kingston

So that all makes sense.
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