Discussion:
Is Thierry of Autun the same person as Makhir?
(too old to reply)
Raymond Brown
2021-05-23 12:56:04 UTC
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Alan,
The interesting genealogy I've come up with traces the Brown's back through Scotland and England to Hugues VII de Lusignan in France. From there, I trace it through la Marche and Quercy back to when Machir (Machir) was to have arrived in 768 meeting with Pepin III and Charles (Charlemagne). The interesting part is the intermarriage of the cousins through many of the nobility.
A line of descent can be traced from Thierry
(Theodoric), Count of Autun in the eighth century, to (among
52. Thierry (Theoderic) of Autun Count (Circa 730 - 804)
& Aude \ Aldana (Circa 732 - 804), dau. of Karl Martel
53. William I of Toulouse Count (Circa 765 - 28 May 812)
& Kunigunde
54. Bernard I of Autun Count (Circa 795 - 844)
& Dhuoda ( - After 2 Feb 843)
55. Regelinde of Agen Countess (Circa 830 - )
& Wulgrin I of Angouleme (Circa 815 - 3 May 886)
56. William II of Perigueux Count (Circa 864 - Circa 918)
& Regilinde (Circa 864 - )
57. Emma de Perigeuex comtesse (Circa 905 - )
& Boso I de la Marche Count (Circa 905 - After 975)
58. Adalbert I de la Marche Count (Circa 945 - 997)
& ? Aisceline de Limoges (Circa 950 - Before 997)
59. Bernard I de la Marche (Circa 986 - 1047)
& Amelia de Montignac (Circa 990 - 1072)
60. Almodis de la Marche (Circa 990 - 17 Nov 1075)
& Pons II Wiliam of Toulouse Count (990 - Circa 1061)
61. William IV of Toulouse Count (1040 - 1094)
& Emma de Mortaigne (Circa 1058 - )
62. Philippa \ Maud de Toulouse (Circa 1073 - 28 Nov 1117)
& William IX of Aquitaine Duke (22 Oct 1071 - 10 Feb 1126/1127)
63. Guillaume X of Aquitaine Duke (1099 - 9 Apr 1137)
& Eleanor de Chatellerault ( - After Mar 1130)
64. Eleanor of Aquitaine Duchess (1122 - 31 Mar 1204)
& Henry II "Curt Mantel" of England King (5 Mar 1132/1133 - 8 Jul 1189)
The above line of descent can be traced in Schwennicke
(ed.) Europaische Stammtafeln, following volume and table
iii, 731 (52-55); iii, 817 (55-57); iii, 819 (57-60); iii, 773
(58); iii, 763 (60-62); ii, 76 (62-64); ii, 82-83 (64). The
same line of descent can be traced in Moriarty, The Plantagenet
213-215 & 232 (52-55); 43 (55-57); 42 (57-62); 36 (62-64); 2
(64).
Lines of descent from Thierry can also be traced to
royal families of France, Aragon, Castile, Barcelona, Leon, and
Navarre as well as England; to noble and gentle families such as
Ferrers, Mortimer, Neville, Clifford, Audley, Lusignan, Percy,
Berkeley, Beauchamp, Taillifer; as well, of course, to many
immigrants to the American colonies and United States.
Anthony Wagner in "Pedigree and Progress" (1975) has a
brief note on "The Jewish kings or princes of Narbonne" (pp.
76-77). He refers to the work of Zuckerman who proposes an
identification of Makhir, a Jewish prince of the house of David,
with Thierry (Theoderic). Apparently Zuckerman's thesis has
received favorable comment from Professors Salo W. Baron and
David H. Kelley. Wagner concludes "Further evaluation and
possible fascinating extensions of these possibilities must
await analysis by authorities on the various aspects of these
matters."
I have been browsing in Arther Zuckerman's book, "A
Jewish princedom in feudal France: 768-900" (1972). I find it
fascinating and erudite. But I am hardly one of the
"authorities on the various aspects of these matters" on whose
further research and commentary Wagner says we must await. Has
there been work in the past two decades which would tend to
confirm or cast doubt on the identity of Thierry and Makhir?
1. David, King of Israel {ca 1010 - 970 B.C.} & Bath-Sheba
2. Solomon, King of Israel {967 - 928 B.C.} & Naamah, the Ammonitess
3. Rehoboam, King of Judah {ca 928 - 911 B.C.}
4. Abijah, King of Judah {ca 914-912 B.C.} & Maacah
5. Asa, King of Judah {ca 908 - 867 B.C.} & Azubah
. . . . . . .
50. Natronai bar Nehemiah, [liv. 719 - 730]
51. Habibai (ca 700 - )
52. Makhir \ Thierry, Count of Autun (ca 730 - 804) & Aude
Wouldn't that be fun? :)
Alan B. Wilson
taf
2021-05-23 18:53:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Brown
Alan,
The interesting genealogy I've come up with traces the Brown's back through
Scotland and England to Hugues VII de Lusignan in France. From there, I trace
it through la Marche and Quercy back to when Machir (Machir) was to have
arrived in 768 meeting with Pepin III and Charles (Charlemagne). The interesting
part is the intermarriage of the cousins through many of the nobility.
Since Alan posted his note 26 years ago, he is unlikely to be responding, so I will.

What is the basis for a Scottish Brown family being descended from Hugh VII of Lusignan? I do hope there is more to it than that the latter was nicknamed 'le Brun'.

As to Hugh being descended from Makhir, there is no such descent. Even were Hugh to descend from Thierry (and I am unaware of such a descent), Zuckerman's theory that Makhir was the same as Thierry was wishful thinking without sound foundation.

taf
Peter Stewart
2021-05-24 01:09:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Raymond Brown
Alan,
The interesting genealogy I've come up with traces the Brown's back through
Scotland and England to Hugues VII de Lusignan in France. From there, I trace
it through la Marche and Quercy back to when Machir (Machir) was to have
arrived in 768 meeting with Pepin III and Charles (Charlemagne). The interesting
part is the intermarriage of the cousins through many of the nobility.
Since Alan posted his note 26 years ago, he is unlikely to be responding, so I will.
What is the basis for a Scottish Brown family being descended from Hugh VII of Lusignan? I do hope there is more to it than that the latter was nicknamed 'le Brun'.
As to Hugh being descended from Makhir, there is no such descent. Even were Hugh to descend from Thierry (and I am unaware of such a descent), Zuckerman's theory that Makhir was the same as Thierry was wishful thinking without sound foundation.
There is a line of decent shown in Genealogics to Hugues VII of
Lusignan, through his paternal grandmother, from Thierry. However, this
is derived from a mistake by Léon Levillain in 1938 making the wife of
Vulgrin I of Angoulême into a daughter of Thierry's grandson Bernard -
Vulgrin's wife (often misnamed Regilinde) was endowed with Agen by her
brother William of Toulouse, whom Levillain wrongly identified as
Bernard's son.

It's interesting that the poster traced his Brown ancestry to Hugues VII
rather than to Hugues VIII or any later Lusignan - presumably this
indicates that the line was traced through one of Hugues VII's other
children.

Peter Stewart

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