Discussion:
Aalst (Alost) - Medieval Lands - The Flemish Nobility
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Hans Vogels
2015-10-12 06:32:43 UTC
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Her marriage is indicated by the charter dated 1056 under which Baudouin V Count of Flanders approved the donation made by "matrona Gisla" of "Ronneka" to the abbey of Saint-Pierre de Gand, signed by "Balduini de Warnastum, Hugonis de Oldenaerde, Roberti et Wenemari de Lens, Balduini filii ipsius Gisle, item filiorum eius Rodulphi, Gisleberti..."[823] and "Gisla" granted a serf to the abbey of Saint-Pierre de Gand by charter dated Apr 1058, signed by "Balduuini filii ipsius Gislæ, item filiorum eius Rodulfi, Gisleberti..."[824]. <<
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FLEMISH%20NOBILITY.htm#BoudewijnGentdied1097A

The traditional view presented by Warlop and Charles Evans has it that Gisela and Ralph (Rudolf) of Gent had as sons: Baldwin, Ralph, Gilbert and Ragenfrid.

But as I see the quote mentioning "Balduini filii ipsius Gisle, item filiorum eius Rodulphi, Gisleberti" in 1056 and "Balduuini filii ipsius Gislæ, item filiorum eius Rodulfi, Gisleberti" in 1058 I wonder about the separate phrasing. Was it not much simpler to state both times Baldwin, Ralph and Gilbert in one breath as sons of Gisela? The quotes mentioned leave open the possibility that it could be read as Baldwin (of Alost) son of Gisela, and his sons Ralph and Gilbert. Or am I seeing things that Medieval usage of Latin does not cover?

Hans Vogels
Peter Stewart via
2015-10-12 08:44:53 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
Her marriage is indicated by the charter dated 1056 under which Baudouin V Count of Flanders approved the donation made by "matrona Gisla" of "Ronneka" to the abbey of Saint-Pierre de Gand, signed by "Balduini de Warnastum, Hugonis de Oldenaerde, Roberti et Wenemari de Lens, Balduini filii ipsius Gisle, item filiorum eius Rodulphi, Gisleberti..."[823] and "Gisla" granted a serf to the abbey of Saint-Pierre de Gand by charter dated Apr 1058, signed by "Balduuini filii ipsius Gislæ, item filiorum eius Rodulfi, Gisleberti..."[824]. <<
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FLEMISH%20NOBILITY.htm#BoudewijnGentdied1097A
The traditional view presented by Warlop and Charles Evans has it that Gisela and Ralph (Rudolf) of Gent had as sons: Baldwin, Ralph, Gilbert and Ragenfrid.
But as I see the quote mentioning "Balduini filii ipsius Gisle, item filiorum eius Rodulphi, Gisleberti" in 1056 and "Balduuini filii ipsius Gislæ, item filiorum eius Rodulfi, Gisleberti" in 1058 I wonder about the separate phrasing. Was it not much simpler to state both times Baldwin, Ralph and Gilbert in one breath as sons of Gisela? The quotes mentioned leave open the possibility that it could be read as Baldwin (of Alost) son of Gisela, and his sons Ralph and Gilbert. Or am I seeing things that Medieval usage of Latin does not cover?
The Medieval Lands database is the work of Charles Cawley, not of
Charles Evans (who was a competent scholar, the grandfather of the FMG
founders whose website hosts Medieval Lands).

As to the charter evidence, the use of "item" indicates that "ipsius"
and "eius" refer to the same person - the literal meaning is "[the
subscriptions of] Balduin son of Gisla, also her sons Radulph and
Gislebert". Balduin was most probably distinguished from his younger
brothers in the list due to his higher rank.

Apart from that, the dates of these charters are almost certainly too
early for Gisla's grandsons, and anyway the known names of Balduin's
sons did not include a Radulph. However his brother, Gisla's son of this
name, was the comital chamberlain from the 1050s until the 1090s, and he
stated his own parentage in a charter for Bergues-Saint-Winoc abbey in 1094.

Peter Stewart
Hans Vogels
2015-10-12 11:31:13 UTC
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Thanks for your answer Peter.

I was trying to schetch out the generations from Ogiva and her sister Gisela per generation side by side. Ogiva's eldest grandson Flanders married in the fifties so Gisela's grandchildren could likewise start to pop-up in that period.

There is an indication for doubt with regards to the number of Baldwin generations between Baldwin the son of Gisela en the brothers Baldwin and Ivan of Alost in de 1e-2e quartor of the 12th century.

Warlop provides his genealogy as a final product but shows no insight in how he comes to that conclusion. Medieval Lands provided the formentioned quote that gave a possibility for rethinking.

With regards,
Hans Vogels
Post by Peter Stewart via
Post by Hans Vogels
Her marriage is indicated by the charter dated 1056 under which Baudouin V Count of Flanders approved the donation made by "matrona Gisla" of "Ronneka" to the abbey of Saint-Pierre de Gand, signed by "Balduini de Warnastum, Hugonis de Oldenaerde, Roberti et Wenemari de Lens, Balduini filii ipsius Gisle, item filiorum eius Rodulphi, Gisleberti..."[823] and "Gisla" granted a serf to the abbey of Saint-Pierre de Gand by charter dated Apr 1058, signed by "Balduuini filii ipsius Gislæ, item filiorum eius Rodulfi, Gisleberti..."[824]. <<
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FLEMISH%20NOBILITY.htm#BoudewijnGentdied1097A
The traditional view presented by Warlop and Charles Evans has it that Gisela and Ralph (Rudolf) of Gent had as sons: Baldwin, Ralph, Gilbert and Ragenfrid.
But as I see the quote mentioning "Balduini filii ipsius Gisle, item filiorum eius Rodulphi, Gisleberti" in 1056 and "Balduuini filii ipsius Gislæ, item filiorum eius Rodulfi, Gisleberti" in 1058 I wonder about the separate phrasing. Was it not much simpler to state both times Baldwin, Ralph and Gilbert in one breath as sons of Gisela? The quotes mentioned leave open the possibility that it could be read as Baldwin (of Alost) son of Gisela, and his sons Ralph and Gilbert. Or am I seeing things that Medieval usage of Latin does not cover?
The Medieval Lands database is the work of Charles Cawley, not of
Charles Evans (who was a competent scholar, the grandfather of the FMG
founders whose website hosts Medieval Lands).
As to the charter evidence, the use of "item" indicates that "ipsius"
and "eius" refer to the same person - the literal meaning is "[the
subscriptions of] Balduin son of Gisla, also her sons Radulph and
Gislebert". Balduin was most probably distinguished from his younger
brothers in the list due to his higher rank.
Apart from that, the dates of these charters are almost certainly too
early for Gisla's grandsons, and anyway the known names of Balduin's
sons did not include a Radulph. However his brother, Gisla's son of this
name, was the comital chamberlain from the 1050s until the 1090s, and he
stated his own parentage in a charter for Bergues-Saint-Winoc abbey in 1094.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart via
2015-10-12 21:34:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans Vogels
Thanks for your answer Peter.
I was trying to schetch out the generations from Ogiva and her sister Gisela per generation side by side. Ogiva's eldest grandson Flanders married in the fifties so Gisela's grandchildren could likewise start to pop-up in that period.
The family of Ogiva should be taken only with caution as a comparison
for the chronology of her sister's descendants - Ogiva's son Balduin V
had to be married to Adela of France before expected, due to his
biologcal urges, while her sister Gisla may not have been married in
Flanders until her husband Radulf of Aalst had succeeded as advocate of
Saint-Pierre abbey, apparently in the early 1030s.

Peter Stewart
Hans Vogels
2018-11-12 19:54:28 UTC
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Triggered by a question I looked anew to my initial question and got myself a second opinion. It now seems that my thoughts on the matter could be right.

There is a charter dated 1056 under which Baudouin V Count of Flanders approved the donation made by "matrona Gisla" of "Ronneka" to the abbey of Saint-Pierre de Gand, signed by
Balduini de Warnastum,
Hugonis de Oldenaerde,
Roberti et Wenemari de Lens,
Balduini filii ipsius Gisle,
item filiorum eius Rodulphi, Gisleberti.

Another charter dated April 1058 shows that "Gisla" granted a serf to the abbey of Saint-Pierre de Gand, signed by
"Balduuini filii ipsius Gislæ,
item filiorum eius Rodulfi, Gisleberti.

The both times mentioned filiorum are to be seen as the sons of Balwin, the son of Gisla.

Hans Vogels
Post by Peter Stewart via
Post by Hans Vogels
Her marriage is indicated by the charter dated 1056 under which Baudouin V Count of Flanders approved the donation made by "matrona Gisla" of "Ronneka" to the abbey of Saint-Pierre de Gand, signed by "Balduini de Warnastum, Hugonis de Oldenaerde, Roberti et Wenemari de Lens, Balduini filii ipsius Gisle, item filiorum eius Rodulphi, Gisleberti..."[823] and "Gisla" granted a serf to the abbey of Saint-Pierre de Gand by charter dated Apr 1058, signed by "Balduuini filii ipsius Gislæ, item filiorum eius Rodulfi, Gisleberti..."[824]. <<
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FLEMISH%20NOBILITY.htm#BoudewijnGentdied1097A
The traditional view presented by Warlop and Charles Evans has it that Gisela and Ralph (Rudolf) of Gent had as sons: Baldwin, Ralph, Gilbert and Ragenfrid.
But as I see the quote mentioning "Balduini filii ipsius Gisle, item filiorum eius Rodulphi, Gisleberti" in 1056 and "Balduuini filii ipsius Gislæ, item filiorum eius Rodulfi, Gisleberti" in 1058 I wonder about the separate phrasing. Was it not much simpler to state both times Baldwin, Ralph and Gilbert in one breath as sons of Gisela? The quotes mentioned leave open the possibility that it could be read as Baldwin (of Alost) son of Gisela, and his sons Ralph and Gilbert. Or am I seeing things that Medieval usage of Latin does not cover?
The Medieval Lands database is the work of Charles Cawley, not of
Charles Evans (who was a competent scholar, the grandfather of the FMG
founders whose website hosts Medieval Lands).
As to the charter evidence, the use of "item" indicates that "ipsius"
and "eius" refer to the same person - the literal meaning is "[the
subscriptions of] Balduin son of Gisla, also her sons Radulph and
Gislebert". Balduin was most probably distinguished from his younger
brothers in the list due to his higher rank.
Apart from that, the dates of these charters are almost certainly too
early for Gisla's grandsons, and anyway the known names of Balduin's
sons did not include a Radulph. However his brother, Gisla's son of this
name, was the comital chamberlain from the 1050s until the 1090s, and he
stated his own parentage in a charter for Bergues-Saint-Winoc abbey in 1094.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2018-11-12 22:30:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans Vogels
Triggered by a question I looked anew to my initial question and got myself a second opinion. It now seems that my thoughts on the matter could be right.
There is a charter dated 1056 under which Baudouin V Count of Flanders approved the donation made by "matrona Gisla" of "Ronneka" to the abbey of Saint-Pierre de Gand, signed by
Balduini de Warnastum,
Hugonis de Oldenaerde,
Roberti et Wenemari de Lens,
Balduini filii ipsius Gisle,
item filiorum eius Rodulphi, Gisleberti.
Another charter dated April 1058 shows that "Gisla" granted a serf to the abbey of Saint-Pierre de Gand, signed by
"Balduuini filii ipsius Gislæ,
item filiorum eius Rodulfi, Gisleberti.
The both times mentioned filiorum are to be seen as the sons of Balwin, the son of Gisla.
If you want to insist on this interpretation, that I consider highly implausible, then you will need to explain:
1. the insertion of the word 'item';
2. why Balduin's eldest son and eventual heir Balduin was not named along with Rodulf and Gislebert;
3. why his other sons Siger and Wenemar were omitted; and
4. the evidence of Rodulf's own charter dated 1094 in which he named his parents as Rodulf and Gisla (see here, pp 79-80, https://books.google.be/books?id=0TUxAQAAMAAJ).

Peter Stewart

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