Discussion:
Complete Peerage Addition: Sir Robert Spencer, 2nd husband of Eleanor Beaufort, Countess of Wiltshire
(too old to reply)
Douglas Richardson
2013-07-03 21:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 126-129 (sub Ormond) includes a well written account of James Butler (or Ormond), Earl of Wiltshire and Ormond, who died 1 May 1461. Regarding his 2nd marriage to Eleanor Beaufort, the following information is given on pages 128-129:

"He married, 2ndly, Eleanor, sister and coheiress of Henry and Edmund (Beaufort), Dukes of Somerset, being eldest daughter of Edmund (Beaufort), Duke of Somerset, by Eleanor (widow of Thomas, Lord Ros), daughter and coheiress of Richard (Beauchamp), Earl of Warwick. He died as aforesaid, s.p., 1 May 1461 ... His widow married, apparently in or before 1470, Sir Robert Spencer, of Spencercombe, Devon, and died 16 August 1501." END OF QUOTE.

Eleanor Beaufort and her 2nd husband, Sir Robert Spencer, are perhaps best known as the maternal grandparents of William Carey, Esq., Gentleman of the Privy Chamber, who was the husband of Mary Boleyn (sister of Queen Anne Boleyn).

In footnote e on page 129 of the Ormond account, Complete Peerage adds the following additional information regarding Eleanor Beaufort and her issue by Sir Robert Spencer:

"Her heirs were her daughters by Spencer: Catherine, wife of Henry Algernon (Percy), Earl of Northumberland, aged 24, and Margaret, wife of Thomas Cary, or Carey, aged 30." END OF QUOTE

The ages of the two daughters Katherine and Margaret Spencer are taken from the inquisition post mortem of Eleanor Beaufort which is dated 1502 [see Cal. IPM Henry VII 2 (1915): 327–328].

Elsewhere I note that Complete Peerage 9 (1936): 720 (sub Northumberland) repeats that claim that Eleanor's 2nd husband, Sir Robert Spencer, was "of Spencercombe, Devon."

In neither Complete Peerage account is any evidence advanced which documents the statement that Sir Robert Spencer was "of Spencercombe, Devon."

I'm not sure of the exact origin of the statement that Sir Robert Spencer was "of Spencercombe, Devon."

I can say that this claim is advanced in several early secondary sources, among them Risdon, Chorographical Description or Survey of Devon (1811): 101, which reads as follows:

"Vincent upon Brooke and Mills maketh mention of sir Robert Spencer, who married Eleanor, the fourth sister of Edmond Beauford, duke of Somerset, who was lord of Spencer Combe, and captain of the castle of Homet and Thomeline, in Normandy." END OF QUOTE.

The material is Risdon may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=w_0GAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA101

Westcote, View of Devonshire in MDCXXX (1845): 126 echoes the same claim:

"... yet I may not pass Spencer's-Comb, now abbreviated Spence-Comb; the seat anciently of the Spencers of this country, who lived here in great estate and reputation; as may appear by the last male of the house, Sir Robert Spencer, who married Eleanor, eldest daughter to Edmund Beaufort ... Duke of Somerset ... By her he had two co-heirs; the eldest, Katherine, married to Henry Lord Percie .... Earl of Northumberland; Margaret, the second was wife of Thomas Cary of Chilton-Foliot ..."

The material is Westcote may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=WJGEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA509

While Westcote claims Sir Robert Spencer the "last male of the house" of Spencers of Spencercombe, Devon, I've never found any contemporary record which supports that statement.

The following two Chancery lawsuits prove that Sir Robert Spencer was the son and heir of John Spencer, esquire, by his wife, Joan.

C 1/160/2: Robert Spenser, knight, son and heir of John Spenser, esquire. v.
Robert Cotes, feoffee to uses.: A moiety of the manor of Brompton Ralph and the advowson of the church.: Somerset.
Date: 1486–93, or 1504–1515.

C 1/480/13: Thomas, son and heir of William Cary and of Alice, his wife, daughter of Baldwin Folford, knight. v. John Fuleford, esquire.: Detention of
deeds relating to the manor of Ashbury, Devon, and half the manor of Brompton
Ralph, Somerset, claimed by complainant in right of Margaret, his wife, daughter
and heir of Robert Spencer, knight, son and heir of John Spencer and of Joan, his wife.
Date: 1518-1529

The above Chancery lawsuits indicate that Sir Robert Spencer's family held land interests in Ashbury, Devon and Brompton Ralph, Somerset, but not at Spencercombe, Devon.

The evidence such as it is unclear where Sir Robert Spencer actually resided. There are various records generated by Sir Robert and his wife, Eleanor, during their marriage, but none indicate a residence for Sir Robert Spencer. Until now, all that is known, is that Sir Robert Spencer was living at Chilton Foliat, Wiltshire at the time he made his will, which will was proved 12 April 1510 (P.C.C. 27 Bennett).

The question arises: Did Sir Robert Spencer reside at Spencercombe, Devon or elsewhere? To answer that question, I recently went through various lawsuits of the Court of Common Pleas which are now available on the website, Anglo-American Legal Tradition [http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT.html].

I located no less than eight lawsuits for Sir Robert Spencer, ranging from 1460 to 1510 (the year of his death). I've abstracted all eight lawsuits below.

The lawsuits indicate that Sir Robert Spencer resided initially in London, where he first appears as a gentleman, then later as a knight. Sometime before 1483, he was evidently living in both London and Bridport, Dorset. By 1510 (the year of his death), he had removed to Chilton Foliat, Wilshire. To my knowledge, these lawsuits provide the first indication of Sir Robert Spencer's actual place of residence during his adult life. I've found no evidence which connects Sir Robert Spencer to Spencercombe, Devon.

1. In 1460, as “Robert Spencer, Gent., of London,” he served as a surety in a lawsuit in the Common of Common Pleas for Richard Renton, yeoman, of Waltham, Essex regarding a debt which the said Renton owed William Skypwyth, Gent., of Norwich, Norfolk.

2. In 1483 Alarius Albych (alias Alcharius Albeche/Alcario Albych), goldsmith, of Southwark, Surrey, sued Robert Spenser (or Spencer), Knt., of London (alias Roger Spenser, Gent., of London) in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt.

3. In 1483 John Philip, Citizen and tailor of London sued Robert Spencer, Knt., of Bridport, Dorset in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt.

4. In 1484 John Philip, Citizen and tailor of London, sued Robert Spencer, Knt., of Bridport, Dorset regarding a debt execution.

5. In 1484, “as Robert Spencer, Knt.,” he sued Richard Syngelton, yeoman, of Rammemsham, Dorset, and two others in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a trespass at Puncknowle and Toller Porcorum, Dorset.

6. In 1484 John Amadas, Citizen and goldsmith of London, sued Robert Spencer, Esq., of London (alias Robert Spencer, Esq., of Bridport, Dorset) regarding a debt.

7. In 1495 Thomas Pays, Citizen and skinner of London, sued Robert Spencer, Knt., of London, regarding a debt.

8. In 1510 John Wendover, administrator of Thomas Pays, Citizen and skinner of London, sued Robert Spencer, Knt., of Chilton, Wiltshire regarding a debt.

The above lawsuits may be viewed at the following weblinks:

Court of Common Pleas, CP 40/817, rot. 104 (available at www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=1272). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/883, rot. 59f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no883/aCP40no883fronts/IMG_0059.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/883, rot. 695d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no883/bCP40no883dorses/IMG_0695.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/883, rot. 815d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no883/bCP40no883dorses/IMG_0815.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/888, rot. 303f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/R3/CP40no888/aCP40no888fronts/IMG_0303.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/888, rot. 1212d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/R3/CP40no888/bCP40no888dorses/IMG_1212.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/888, rot. 1236d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/R3/CP40no888/bCP40no888dorses/IMG_1236.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/931, rot. 87f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/H7/CP40no931/aCP40no931fronts/IMG_0087.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/931, rot. 1380d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/H7/CP40no931/bCP40no931dorses/IMG_1380.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/990, rot. 167d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H8/CP40no990/bCP40no990dorses/IMG_0167.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/990, rot. 864d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H8/CP40no990/bCP40no990dorses/IMG_0864.htm).

Finally I should note that in one lawsuit cited above dated 1483 that Sir Robert Spencer is given an alias of Roger Spencer, Gentleman. I'm sure most people would be puzzled by that statement. Over the course of years, I've learned that Robert and Roger are sometimes interchangeable in contemporary records, much like Elizabeth and Isabel.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Matt Tompkins
2013-07-04 14:33:19 UTC
Permalink
Spencercombe is nowadays known as Spence Combe - it is in the ecclesiastical parish of Crediton, some miles to the west of the town.

Polwhele's History of Devonshire (vol. 2, p. 92) suggests that the Spencers of Spence Combe had died out a generation or two before Sir Robert Spencer married Eleanor Beaufort: "The last Spencer's daughter, Joan, was the wife of Stephen Gifford: and Alice their daughter brought this [Spence Combe] and Theoborowe [Thuborough, in Sutcombe], with herself, to William Prideaux of Adeston [who died around 1470, I think]."

Three Feet of Fines in Chris Phillip's website seem to support this: CP 25/1/146/85, no. 159 and CP 25/1/146/91, nos. 4, 5.

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_46_85.shtml

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_46_91.shtml

Matt Tompkins
Dear Newsgroup ~ Complete Peerage, 10 (1945): 126-129 (sub Ormond) includes a well written account of James Butler (or Ormond), Earl of Wiltshire and Ormond, who died 1 May 1461. Regarding his 2nd marriage to Eleanor Beaufort, the following information is given on pages 128-129: "He married, 2ndly, Eleanor, sister and coheiress of Henry and Edmund (Beaufort), Dukes of Somerset, being eldest daughter of Edmund (Beaufort), Duke of Somerset, by Eleanor (widow of Thomas, Lord Ros), daughter and coheiress of Richard (Beauchamp), Earl of Warwick. He died as aforesaid, s.p., 1 May 1461 ... His widow married, apparently in or before 1470, Sir Robert Spencer, of Spencercombe, Devon, and died 16 August 1501." END OF QUOTE. Eleanor Beaufort and her 2nd husband, Sir Robert Spencer, are perhaps best known as the maternal grandparents of William Carey, Esq., Gentleman of the Privy Chamber, who was the husband of Mary Boleyn (sister of Queen Anne Boleyn). In footnote e on page 129 of the Ormond account, Complete Peerage adds the following additional information regarding Eleanor Beaufort and her issue by Sir Robert Spencer: "Her heirs were her daughters by Spencer: Catherine, wife of Henry Algernon (Percy), Earl of Northumberland, aged 24, and Margaret, wife of Thomas Cary, or Carey, aged 30." END OF QUOTE The ages of the two daughters Katherine and Margaret Spencer are taken from the inquisition post mortem of Eleanor Beaufort which is dated 1502 [see Cal. IPM Henry VII 2 (1915): 327–328]. Elsewhere I note that Complete Peerage 9 (1936): 720 (sub Northumberland) repeats that claim that Eleanor's 2nd husband, Sir Robert Spencer, was "of Spencercombe, Devon." In neither Complete Peerage account is any evidence advanced which documents the statement that Sir Robert Spencer was "of Spencercombe, Devon."
I'm not sure of the exact origin of the statement that Sir Robert Spencer was "of Spencercombe, Devon."

I can say that this claim is advanced in several early secondary sources, among them Risdon, Chorographical Description or Survey of Devon (1811): 101, which reads as follows: "Vincent upon Brooke and Mills maketh mention of sir Robert Spencer, who married Eleanor, the fourth sister of Edmond Beauford, duke of Somerset, who was lord of Spencer Combe, and captain of the castle of Homet and Thomeline, in Normandy." END OF QUOTE. The material is Risdon may be viewed at the following weblink: http://books.google.com/books?id=w_0GAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA101

Westcote, View of Devonshire in MDCXXX (1845): 126 echoes the same claim: "... yet I may not pass Spencer's-Comb, now abbreviated Spence-Comb; the seat anciently of the Spencers of this country, who lived here in great estate and reputation; as may appear by the last male of the house, Sir Robert Spencer, who married Eleanor, eldest daughter to Edmund Beaufort ... Duke of Somerset ... By her he had two co-heirs; the eldest, Katherine, married to Henry Lord Percie .... Earl of Northumberland; Margaret, the second was wife of Thomas Cary of Chilton-Foliot ..." The material is Westcote may be viewed at the following weblink: http://books.google.com/books?id=WJGEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA509

While Westcote claims Sir Robert Spencer the "last male of the house" of Spencers of Spencercombe, Devon, I've never found any contemporary record which supports that statement.

The following two Chancery lawsuits prove that Sir Robert Spencer was the son and heir of John Spencer, esquire, by his wife, Joan. C 1/160/2: Robert Spenser, knight, son and heir of John Spenser, esquire. v. Robert Cotes, feoffee to uses.: A moiety of the manor of Brompton Ralph and the advowson of the church.: Somerset. Date: 1486–93, or 1504–1515. C 1/480/13: Thomas, son and heir of William Cary and of Alice, his wife, daughter of Baldwin Folford, knight. v. John Fuleford, esquire.: Detention of deeds relating to the manor of Ashbury, Devon, and half the manor of Brompton Ralph, Somerset, claimed by complainant in right of Margaret, his wife, daughter and heir of Robert Spencer, knight, son and heir of John Spencer and of Joan, his wife. Date: 1518-1529 The above Chancery lawsuits indicate that Sir Robert Spencer's family held land interests in Ashbury, Devon and Brompton Ralph, Somerset, but not at Spencercombe, Devon. The evidence such as it is unclear where Sir Robert Spencer actually resided. There are various records generated by Sir Robert and his wife, Eleanor, during their marriage, but none indicate a residence for Sir Robert Spencer. Until now, all that is known, is that Sir Robert Spencer was living at Chilton Foliat, Wiltshire at the time he made his will, which will was proved 12 April 1510 (P.C.C. 27 Bennett).

The question arises: Did Sir Robert Spencer reside at Spencercombe, Devon or elsewhere? To answer that question, I recently went through various lawsuits of the Court of Common Pleas which are now available on the website, Anglo-American Legal Tradition [http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT.html].

I located no less than eight lawsuits for Sir Robert Spencer, ranging from 1460 to 1510 (the year of his death). I've abstracted all eight lawsuits below.

The lawsuits indicate that Sir Robert Spencer resided initially in London, where he first appears as a gentleman, then later as a knight. Sometime before 1483, he was evidently living in both London and Bridport, Dorset. By 1510 (the year of his death), he had removed to Chilton Foliat, Wilshire. To my knowledge, these lawsuits provide the first indication of Sir Robert Spencer's actual place of residence during his adult life. I've found no evidence which connects Sir Robert Spencer to Spencercombe, Devon.

<snip>

Finally I should note that in one lawsuit cited above dated 1483 that Sir Robert Spencer is given an alias of Roger Spencer, Gentleman. I'm sure most people would be puzzled by that statement. Over the course of years, I've learned that Robert and Roger are sometimes interchangeable in contemporary records, much like Elizabeth and Isabel.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Matt Tompkins
2013-07-04 16:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Tompkins
Polwhele's History of Devonshire (vol. 2, p. 92) suggests that the Spencers of Spence Combe had died out a generation or two before Sir Robert Spencer married Eleanor Beaufort: "The last Spencer's daughter, Joan, was the wife of Stephen Gifford: and Alice their daughter brought this [Spence Combe] and Theoborowe [Thuborough, in Sutcombe], with herself, to William Prideaux of Adeston [who died around 1470, I think]."
Just noticed that Polwhele lifted this passage almost verbatim from Risdon (though he inserted a couple of additonal details). In Risdon it appears on the page before the one where he says Sir Robert Spencer was lord of Spencer Combe - I wonder if he was aware of the inconsistency between the two passages.

Matt Tompkins
Douglas Richardson
2013-07-06 17:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Dear Newsgroup ~

Thanks to Matt Tompkins for his comments regarding the descent of the manor of Spencercombe (or Spence Combe), Devon. His comments confirm my findings that Sir Robert Spencer was never of Spencercombe, Devon.

Regarding Sir Robert Spencer's proven father, John Spencer, Esq., I have previously identified him as John Spencer, of Frampton, Dorset, although I'd like to see better evidence for this identification.

VCH Somerset 5 (1985): 21 indicates that John Spencer (father of Sir Robert Spencer) acquired a share in the manor of Brompton Ralph, Somerset before 1433, and that he died before 1472. By 1490 his share had been sold "to raise portions for Spencer's daughters," who I presume were younger children by his
surviving 2nd wife, Christine. Following John Spencer's death, his
widow, Christine, married (2nd) before 1482 Richard Hatfield, Esq., of
Cranborne, Dorset, Adbeer, Somerset, and London. In 1482, Christine
and Richard, with her sisters, Joan and Margaret Swete, were sued by
John Hunteley for lands and tenements in Netheratbare, Overatbare, and
Horner, Somerset [see Genealogist, n.s. 20 (1904): 154-155]. By
comparison with another suit dated 1462, it appears that Christine was
the daughter of Thomas Swete, of Bradford, Dorset, glasier, and his
wife, Joan, daughter of John Shete [see Genealogist, n.s. 19 (1903):
23-24].

This second suit appears to be the same as one cited in the
online Discovery catalog as follows:

C 1/29/31:
Richard Hatfeld, gent., Thomas Swete, and Jane his wife. v. Roger Wyke
and Jane his wife.: Title to the manor of Rockbourn, and other lands,
&c. late of Jane, late the wife of Thomas Payne.: Hants.

This lawsuit was previously dated in the old PROCAT catalog as 1386-1486, but now is correctly dated 1460-1465.

The marriage of Christine, widow of John Spencer, Esq., to Richard Hatfield is proven by the following Chancery lawsuit:

C 1/40/112:
Richard Hattefild and Cristyne his wife, late the wife of John
Spenser, esquire. v. John Monk: Manor of Brompton Ralph (Raff).:
Somerset.

This lawsuit was previously dated in the old PROCAT catalog as being 1386-1486, but is now dated in the Discovery catalog as being 1433-1472.

Thomas Swete and his wife, Joan (or Jane), and their daughter and son-in-law, Christine and Richard Hatfield, are mentioned in an interesting discussion entitled "The Inheritance of Sir Walter de Romsey" published in Carpenter, Kingsford's Stonor Letters and Papers 1290-1483 (1996): 76-84. See the following weblink for this material:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NcLTndriDR4C&pg=PA76

This discussion indicates that in Trinity term 1462 Thomas and Joan Swete, Richard Hatfeld of London, gentleman, and two others were ordered to appear to answer for certain trespass, contempt, and forcible entry for which they were indicted. In October 1462 following, Thomas Lyete, of Lytes Care, Somerset, Isabel Hunteley, of Netherattebeare, widow, and others broke the close of Thomas Swete and Richard Hatfeld at Netherattebeare, [Dorset], did them grievous hurt and so threatened their tenants that they did not dare to continue, to the great loss of Swete and Hatfeld, who thereupon took proceedings in the King's Bench in Hilary term, 1463.

There is no indication that Richard Hatfield was married to Christine, daughter of Thomas Swete, in either 1462 or 1463. However, I might note that Richard Hatfield was stated in 1462 to be "of London." My previous post proves that Richard Hatfield's wife's step-son, Sir Robert Spencer, was "of London" in 1460.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Matt A
2013-07-07 01:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
Thanks to Matt Tompkins for his comments regarding the descent of the manor of Spencercombe (or Spence Combe), Devon. His comments confirm my findings that Sir Robert Spencer was never of Spencercombe, Devon.
Regarding Sir Robert Spencer's proven father, John Spencer, Esq., I have previously identified him as John Spencer, of Frampton, Dorset, although I'd like to see better evidence for this identification.
VCH Somerset 5 (1985): 21 indicates that John Spencer (father of Sir Robert Spencer) acquired a share in the manor of Brompton Ralph, Somerset before 1433, and that he died before 1472. By 1490 his share had been sold "to raise portions for Spencer's daughters," who I presume were younger children by his
surviving 2nd wife, Christine. Following John Spencer's death, his
widow, Christine, married (2nd) before 1482 Richard Hatfield, Esq., of
Cranborne, Dorset, Adbeer, Somerset, and London. In 1482, Christine
and Richard, with her sisters, Joan and Margaret Swete, were sued by
John Hunteley for lands and tenements in Netheratbare, Overatbare, and
Horner, Somerset [see Genealogist, n.s. 20 (1904): 154-155]. By
comparison with another suit dated 1462, it appears that Christine was
the daughter of Thomas Swete, of Bradford, Dorset, glasier, and his
23-24].
This second suit appears to be the same as one cited in the
Richard Hatfeld, gent., Thomas Swete, and Jane his wife. v. Roger Wyke
and Jane his wife.: Title to the manor of Rockbourn, and other lands,
&c. late of Jane, late the wife of Thomas Payne.: Hants.
This lawsuit was previously dated in the old PROCAT catalog as 1386-1486, but now is correctly dated 1460-1465.
Richard Hattefild and Cristyne his wife, late the wife of John
Somerset.
This lawsuit was previously dated in the old PROCAT catalog as being 1386-1486, but is now dated in the Discovery catalog as being 1433-1472.
http://books.google.com/books?id=NcLTndriDR4C&pg=PA76
This discussion indicates that in Trinity term 1462 Thomas and Joan Swete, Richard Hatfeld of London, gentleman, and two others were ordered to appear to answer for certain trespass, contempt, and forcible entry for which they were indicted. In October 1462 following, Thomas Lyete, of Lytes Care, Somerset, Isabel Hunteley, of Netherattebeare, widow, and others broke the close of Thomas Swete and Richard Hatfeld at Netherattebeare, [Dorset], did them grievous hurt and so threatened their tenants that they did not dare to continue, to the great loss of Swete and Hatfeld, who thereupon took proceedings in the King's Bench in Hilary term, 1463.
There is no indication that Richard Hatfield was married to Christine, daughter of Thomas Swete, in either 1462 or 1463. However, I might note that Richard Hatfield was stated in 1462 to be "of London." My previous post proves that Richard Hatfield's wife's step-son, Sir Robert Spencer, was "of London" in 1460.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
C 1/29/31 http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no29/C1no29nos%201-300/IMG_0046.htm

C 1/40/112 I could not find, as not all penciled item numbers are included in the pictures provided on the AALT website. But if you want to try to locate it, all of C 1/40 should be here: http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no40/

Hope this helps,

-Matt Ahlgren
Janet Wolfe
2013-07-07 02:12:09 UTC
Permalink
It is here http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no40/IMG_0177.htm and here
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no40/IMG_0178.htm, but unfortunately it
is difficult to read.
Post by Douglas Richardson
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
Thanks to Matt Tompkins for his comments regarding the descent of the
manor of Spencercombe (or Spence Combe), Devon. His comments confirm my
findings that Sir Robert Spencer was never of Spencercombe, Devon.
Post by Douglas Richardson
Regarding Sir Robert Spencer's proven father, John Spencer, Esq., I have
previously identified him as John Spencer, of Frampton, Dorset, although
I'd like to see better evidence for this identification.
Post by Douglas Richardson
VCH Somerset 5 (1985): 21 indicates that John Spencer (father of Sir
Robert Spencer) acquired a share in the manor of Brompton Ralph, Somerset
before 1433, and that he died before 1472. By 1490 his share had been sold
"to raise portions for Spencer's daughters," who I presume were younger
children by his
Post by Douglas Richardson
surviving 2nd wife, Christine. Following John Spencer's death, his
widow, Christine, married (2nd) before 1482 Richard Hatfield, Esq., of
Cranborne, Dorset, Adbeer, Somerset, and London. In 1482, Christine
and Richard, with her sisters, Joan and Margaret Swete, were sued by
John Hunteley for lands and tenements in Netheratbare, Overatbare, and
Horner, Somerset [see Genealogist, n.s. 20 (1904): 154-155]. By
comparison with another suit dated 1462, it appears that Christine was
the daughter of Thomas Swete, of Bradford, Dorset, glasier, and his
23-24].
This second suit appears to be the same as one cited in the
Richard Hatfeld, gent., Thomas Swete, and Jane his wife. v. Roger Wyke
and Jane his wife.: Title to the manor of Rockbourn, and other lands,
&c. late of Jane, late the wife of Thomas Payne.: Hants.
This lawsuit was previously dated in the old PROCAT catalog as
1386-1486, but now is correctly dated 1460-1465.
Post by Douglas Richardson
The marriage of Christine, widow of John Spencer, Esq., to Richard
Richard Hattefild and Cristyne his wife, late the wife of John
Somerset.
This lawsuit was previously dated in the old PROCAT catalog as being
1386-1486, but is now dated in the Discovery catalog as being 1433-1472.
Post by Douglas Richardson
Thomas Swete and his wife, Joan (or Jane), and their daughter and
son-in-law, Christine and Richard Hatfield, are mentioned in an interesting
discussion entitled "The Inheritance of Sir Walter de Romsey" published in
Carpenter, Kingsford's Stonor Letters and Papers 1290-1483 (1996): 76-84.
Post by Douglas Richardson
http://books.google.com/books?id=NcLTndriDR4C&pg=PA76
This discussion indicates that in Trinity term 1462 Thomas and Joan
Swete, Richard Hatfeld of London, gentleman, and two others were ordered to
appear to answer for certain trespass, contempt, and forcible entry for
which they were indicted. In October 1462 following, Thomas Lyete, of
Lytes Care, Somerset, Isabel Hunteley, of Netherattebeare, widow, and
others broke the close of Thomas Swete and Richard Hatfeld at
Netherattebeare, [Dorset], did them grievous hurt and so threatened their
tenants that they did not dare to continue, to the great loss of Swete and
Hatfeld, who thereupon took proceedings in the King's Bench in Hilary term,
1463.
Post by Douglas Richardson
There is no indication that Richard Hatfield was married to Christine,
daughter of Thomas Swete, in either 1462 or 1463. However, I might note
that Richard Hatfield was stated in 1462 to be "of London." My previous
post proves that Richard Hatfield's wife's step-son, Sir Robert Spencer,
was "of London" in 1460.
Post by Douglas Richardson
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
C 1/29/31
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no29/C1no29nos%201-300/IMG_0046.htm
C 1/40/112 I could not find, as not all penciled item numbers are included
in the pictures provided on the AALT website. But if you want to try to
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/ChP/C1no40/
Hope this helps,
-Matt Ahlgren
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Douglas Richardson
2013-07-06 19:00:32 UTC
Permalink
Dear Newsgroup ~

In my post earlier today, I indicated that Sir Robert Spencer's step-mother, Christine, was the daughter of Thomas Swete, who had a lawsuit in the 1460's regarding his lands at Netherattebeare, [Dorset].

The place intended is actually Nether Adbeer, Somerset, which locality is in the parish of Chilton-Cantelo, Somerset.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
wjhonson
2013-07-07 16:15:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Newsgroup ~
"He married, 2ndly, Eleanor, sister and coheiress of Henry and Edmund (Beaufort), Dukes of Somerset, being eldest daughter of Edmund (Beaufort), Duke of Somerset, by Eleanor (widow of Thomas, Lord Ros), daughter and coheiress of Richard (Beauchamp), Earl of Warwick. He died as aforesaid, s.p., 1 May 1461 ... His widow married, apparently in or before 1470, Sir Robert Spencer, of Spencercombe, Devon, and died 16 August 1501." END OF QUOTE.
Eleanor Beaufort and her 2nd husband, Sir Robert Spencer, are perhaps best known as the maternal grandparents of William Carey, Esq., Gentleman of the Privy Chamber, who was the husband of Mary Boleyn (sister of Queen Anne Boleyn).
"Her heirs were her daughters by Spencer: Catherine, wife of Henry Algernon (Percy), Earl of Northumberland, aged 24, and Margaret, wife of Thomas Cary, or Carey, aged 30." END OF QUOTE
The ages of the two daughters Katherine and Margaret Spencer are taken from the inquisition post mortem of Eleanor Beaufort which is dated 1502 [see Cal. IPM Henry VII 2 (1915): 327–328].
Elsewhere I note that Complete Peerage 9 (1936): 720 (sub Northumberland) repeats that claim that Eleanor's 2nd husband, Sir Robert Spencer, was "of Spencercombe, Devon."
In neither Complete Peerage account is any evidence advanced which documents the statement that Sir Robert Spencer was "of Spencercombe, Devon."
I'm not sure of the exact origin of the statement that Sir Robert Spencer was "of Spencercombe, Devon."
"Vincent upon Brooke and Mills maketh mention of sir Robert Spencer, who married Eleanor, the fourth sister of Edmond Beauford, duke of Somerset, who was lord of Spencer Combe, and captain of the castle of Homet and Thomeline, in Normandy." END OF QUOTE.
http://books.google.com/books?id=w_0GAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA101
"... yet I may not pass Spencer's-Comb, now abbreviated Spence-Comb; the seat anciently of the Spencers of this country, who lived here in great estate and reputation; as may appear by the last male of the house, Sir Robert Spencer, who married Eleanor, eldest daughter to Edmund Beaufort ... Duke of Somerset ... By her he had two co-heirs; the eldest, Katherine, married to Henry Lord Percie .... Earl of Northumberland; Margaret, the second was wife of Thomas Cary of Chilton-Foliot ..."
http://books.google.com/books?id=WJGEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA509
While Westcote claims Sir Robert Spencer the "last male of the house" of Spencers of Spencercombe, Devon, I've never found any contemporary record which supports that statement.
The following two Chancery lawsuits prove that Sir Robert Spencer was the son and heir of John Spencer, esquire, by his wife, Joan.
C 1/160/2: Robert Spenser, knight, son and heir of John Spenser, esquire. v.
Robert Cotes, feoffee to uses.: A moiety of the manor of Brompton Ralph and the advowson of the church.: Somerset.
Date: 1486–93, or 1504–1515.
C 1/480/13: Thomas, son and heir of William Cary and of Alice, his wife, daughter of Baldwin Folford, knight. v. John Fuleford, esquire.: Detention of
deeds relating to the manor of Ashbury, Devon, and half the manor of Brompton
Ralph, Somerset, claimed by complainant in right of Margaret, his wife, daughter
and heir of Robert Spencer, knight, son and heir of John Spencer and of Joan, his wife.
Date: 1518-1529
The above Chancery lawsuits indicate that Sir Robert Spencer's family held land interests in Ashbury, Devon and Brompton Ralph, Somerset, but not at Spencercombe, Devon.
The evidence such as it is unclear where Sir Robert Spencer actually resided. There are various records generated by Sir Robert and his wife, Eleanor, during their marriage, but none indicate a residence for Sir Robert Spencer. Until now, all that is known, is that Sir Robert Spencer was living at Chilton Foliat, Wiltshire at the time he made his will, which will was proved 12 April 1510 (P.C.C. 27 Bennett).
The question arises: Did Sir Robert Spencer reside at Spencercombe, Devon or elsewhere? To answer that question, I recently went through various lawsuits of the Court of Common Pleas which are now available on the website, Anglo-American Legal Tradition [http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT.html].
I located no less than eight lawsuits for Sir Robert Spencer, ranging from 1460 to 1510 (the year of his death). I've abstracted all eight lawsuits below.
The lawsuits indicate that Sir Robert Spencer resided initially in London, where he first appears as a gentleman, then later as a knight. Sometime before 1483, he was evidently living in both London and Bridport, Dorset. By 1510 (the year of his death), he had removed to Chilton Foliat, Wilshire. To my knowledge, these lawsuits provide the first indication of Sir Robert Spencer's actual place of residence during his adult life. I've found no evidence which connects Sir Robert Spencer to Spencercombe, Devon.
1. In 1460, as “Robert Spencer, Gent., of London,” he served as a surety in a lawsuit in the Common of Common Pleas for Richard Renton, yeoman, of Waltham, Essex regarding a debt which the said Renton owed William Skypwyth, Gent., of Norwich, Norfolk.
2. In 1483 Alarius Albych (alias Alcharius Albeche/Alcario Albych), goldsmith, of Southwark, Surrey, sued Robert Spenser (or Spencer), Knt., of London (alias Roger Spenser, Gent., of London) in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt.
3. In 1483 John Philip, Citizen and tailor of London sued Robert Spencer, Knt., of Bridport, Dorset in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt.
4. In 1484 John Philip, Citizen and tailor of London, sued Robert Spencer, Knt., of Bridport, Dorset regarding a debt execution.
5. In 1484, “as Robert Spencer, Knt.,” he sued Richard Syngelton, yeoman, of Rammemsham, Dorset, and two others in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a trespass at Puncknowle and Toller Porcorum, Dorset.
6. In 1484 John Amadas, Citizen and goldsmith of London, sued Robert Spencer, Esq., of London (alias Robert Spencer, Esq., of Bridport, Dorset) regarding a debt.
7. In 1495 Thomas Pays, Citizen and skinner of London, sued Robert Spencer, Knt., of London, regarding a debt.
8. In 1510 John Wendover, administrator of Thomas Pays, Citizen and skinner of London, sued Robert Spencer, Knt., of Chilton, Wiltshire regarding a debt.
Court of Common Pleas, CP 40/817, rot. 104 (available at www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=1272). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/883, rot. 59f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no883/aCP40no883fronts/IMG_0059.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/883, rot. 695d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no883/bCP40no883dorses/IMG_0695.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/883, rot. 815d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/E4/CP40no883/bCP40no883dorses/IMG_0815.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/888, rot. 303f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/R3/CP40no888/aCP40no888fronts/IMG_0303.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/888, rot. 1212d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/R3/CP40no888/bCP40no888dorses/IMG_1212.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/888, rot. 1236d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/R3/CP40no888/bCP40no888dorses/IMG_1236.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/931, rot. 87f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/H7/CP40no931/aCP40no931fronts/IMG_0087.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/931, rot. 1380d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/H7/CP40no931/bCP40no931dorses/IMG_1380.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/990, rot. 167d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H8/CP40no990/bCP40no990dorses/IMG_0167.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/990, rot. 864d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H8/CP40no990/bCP40no990dorses/IMG_0864.htm).
Finally I should note that in one lawsuit cited above dated 1483 that Sir Robert Spencer is given an alias of Roger Spencer, Gentleman. I'm sure most people would be puzzled by that statement. Over the course of years, I've learned that Robert and Roger are sometimes interchangeable in contemporary records, much like Elizabeth and Isabel.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
The idea that Robert and Roger were interchangeable in this time period is without any basis.

The reason a person might be called "alias Roger" is fairly clear, that when the suit was instituted his name wasn't clearly known. Or that some *indexer* has in a silly fit mistaken "ROBIN" for "Roger".

Robin being a known familiar form of Robert, at this time.
Douglas Richardson
2013-07-07 17:04:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by wjhonson
The idea that Robert and Roger were interchangeable in this time period is without any basis.
The names, Robert and Roger, are in fact interchangeable in this time period. I recommend you spend more time in contemporary medieval records.

DR
wjhonson
2013-07-07 19:19:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Richardson
Post by wjhonson
The idea that Robert and Roger were interchangeable in this time period is without any basis.
The names, Robert and Roger, are in fact interchangeable in this time period. I recommend you spend more time in contemporary medieval records.
DR
There is not one single example other than this fat indexing error, to indicate that Robert and Roger are the same name at this period or otherwise.

Not one.
You're making a rule from a SINGLE example!
Douglas Richardson
2013-07-07 19:53:46 UTC
Permalink
On Sunday, July 7, 2013 1:19:05 PM UTC-6, wjhonson wrote:
< You're making a rule from a SINGLE example!

Not hardly, Will.

My statement is based on many years of reading contemporary medieval English records, not on one record as you allege.

I might add that Robin was a nickname for Robert. Much like Janin for John, Colin for Nicholas, etc.

Any other questions, Will?

DR
wjhonson
2013-07-07 20:03:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Richardson
< You're making a rule from a SINGLE example!
Not hardly, Will.
My statement is based on many years of reading contemporary medieval English records, not on one record as you allege.
I might add that Robin was a nickname for Robert. Much like Janin for John, Colin for Nicholas, etc.
Any other questions, Will?
DR
Everyone knows that Robin is a familiar form of Robert.
No one except you believes that Roger is a form of Robert or that they were interchangeable in this time period.

It was never a question for you to answer.
It was a challenge to the silly idea you posted.
That your "years" of reading can't come up with ONE single example outside of this fat-finger indexer proves the point.

It's pointless to continue arguing DR, I've shown that the Emperor has no clothes :)

On another point, Spencer's Combe long passed out of the Spencer family through an heiress, by this time period to Fulk Prideaux

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/results.aspx?tab=2&Page=1&ExactPhrase=spencer%27s+combe
Brad Verity
2013-07-07 19:19:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Richardson
The above Chancery lawsuits indicate that Sir Robert Spencer's family held land interests in Ashbury, Devon and Brompton Ralph, Somerset, but not at Spencercombe, Devon.
The evidence such as it is unclear where Sir Robert Spencer actually resided.
FWIW, the ODNB, in Michael Riordan's bio of William Carey (c.1496-1528), calls him "Sir Robert Spencer of Ashbury, Devon":
"Thomas, who was MP for Wallingford in 1491–2, inherited Chilton Foliat through his marriage to Margaret, daughter of Sir Robert Spencer of Ashbury, Devon, and his wife, Eleanor Beaufort, daughter and coheir of Edmund Beaufort, first duke of Somerset (d. 1455), who had held Chilton Foliat."

Cheers, ----Brad
Douglas Richardson
2013-07-07 19:46:25 UTC
Permalink
Brad ~

The contemporary lawsuits I cited in my earlier post prove conclusively that Sir Robert Spencer resided at London, Bridport, Dorset, and Chilton Foliat, Wiltshire.

He also held the manors of Hazelbury Bryan, Puncknowle, and Toller Porcorum, Dorset, and Batheaston, Kingsdon, Shockerwick, Somerton Erleigh (in Somerton), and Somerton Randolph (in Somerton), Somerset, in right of his wife's dower.

A picture of the Somerton estate, by the way, may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://www.bedandbreakfastsearcher.co.uk/detail.asp?id=3449

For a time, the Somerton estate was owned by George, Duke of Clarence, brother of King Edward IV.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Post by Brad Verity
"Thomas, who was MP for Wallingford in 1491–2, inherited Chilton Foliat through his marriage to Margaret, daughter of Sir Robert Spencer of Ashbury, Devon, and his wife, Eleanor Beaufort, daughter and coheir of Edmund Beaufort, first duke of Somerset (d. 1455), who had held Chilton Foliat."
Cheers, ----Brad
j***@yahoo.com
2013-07-07 21:36:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Richardson
Brad ~
The contemporary lawsuits I cited in my earlier post prove conclusively that Sir Robert Spencer resided at London, Bridport, Dorset, and Chilton Foliat, Wiltshire.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
The lawsuits simply indicate that Sir Robert Spencer lived at those locations at the time of the lawsuits. They don't prove "conclusively" that he didn't live elsewhere at other times.

Here's another source (presumably reputable??) that calls him Sir Robert Spencer of Ashbury, Devon, Brompton Ralph, Somerset, and (in right of his wife) Chilton Foliot, Wiltshire:
http://books.google.com/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=PA480#v=onepage&q&f=false
d***@gmail.com
2020-05-31 17:07:36 UTC
Permalink
It is very possible he was living there sometime between 1470 - 1500 as Alice Gifford who owned it was not, she was at Thuborough with her husband. Plus her heir to Spencercombe wasn't born until approx. 1520
wjhonson
2013-07-07 19:48:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Verity
Post by Douglas Richardson
The above Chancery lawsuits indicate that Sir Robert Spencer's family held land interests in Ashbury, Devon and Brompton Ralph, Somerset, but not at Spencercombe, Devon.
The evidence such as it is unclear where Sir Robert Spencer actually resided.
"Thomas, who was MP for Wallingford in 1491–2, inherited Chilton Foliat through his marriage to Margaret, daughter of Sir Robert Spencer of Ashbury, Devon, and his wife, Eleanor Beaufort, daughter and coheir of Edmund Beaufort, first duke of Somerset (d. 1455), who had held Chilton Foliat."
Cheers, ----Brad
Obviously the Viscount Falkland thought he could claim arms showing what Debrett's here calls "Spencer of Spencercombe"

http://books.google.com/books?id=DuwDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA299
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