Discussion:
Parentage of Jeanne de Montfort
(too old to reply)
Carl-Henry Geschwind
2021-03-27 00:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Jeanne de Montfort, wife of Guy VI Comte de Forez and then of Louis de Savoie, Seigneur de Vaud, is shown as the daughter of Philippe II de Montfort, Seigneur de Castres, and his wife Jeanne de Lévis by both Père Anselme (in Histoire généalogique et chronologique de la Maison Royale de France, VI: 80, viewable at https://digital.ub.uni-duesseldorf.de/ihd/content/pageview/8915808) and by André Du Chesne (in Histoire des rois, ducs, et comtes de Bourgogne et d'Arles, p. 437, viewable at https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1056857z/f461.item). This assignment has been adopted by ESNF 3:643, as shown at https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00079354&tree=LEO

But what are the contemporary or near-contemporary documents supporting this parentage? From a citation in Cawley I have gotten to an extract from her will of November 1293, in which she describes herself as "dominæ Joannæ de Monteforti, quondam comitissæ Forensis, uxorisque quondam illustris domini Ludovici de Sabaudia, domini Vaudi" (Jean Marie de La Mure, Histoire des ducs de Bourbon et des comtes de Forez, III: 73-74, viewable at https://books.google.com/books?id=PMvkAAAAMAAJ). So she clearly was a Montfort of some sort. But (as also already pointed out by Cawley) neither she nor any of her (very many) children appear in the 1295 charter by which Joannes, Laura and Elienoris de Monteforti as children of D. Philippi de Monteforti and D. Joannæ de Leviers assign a portion of their estates to Elienoris (Cartulaire de l'abbaye de Notre-Dame de La Roche, pp. 458-459, viewable at https://books.google.com/books?id=wsEQAAAAIAAJ).

So what is the evidence (earlier than Du Chesne) that this Jeanne de Montfort was the daughter of specifically Philippe II de Montfort-Castres and not of one of the many other Montforts floating around out there?

Thanks!
Peter Stewart
2021-03-27 02:03:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl-Henry Geschwind
Jeanne de Montfort, wife of Guy VI Comte de Forez and then of Louis de Savoie, Seigneur de Vaud, is shown as the daughter of Philippe II de Montfort, Seigneur de Castres, and his wife Jeanne de Lévis by both Père Anselme (in Histoire généalogique et chronologique de la Maison Royale de France, VI: 80, viewable at https://digital.ub.uni-duesseldorf.de/ihd/content/pageview/8915808) and by André Du Chesne (in Histoire des rois, ducs, et comtes de Bourgogne et d'Arles, p. 437, viewable at https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1056857z/f461.item). This assignment has been adopted by ESNF 3:643, as shown at https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00079354&tree=LEO
But what are the contemporary or near-contemporary documents supporting this parentage? From a citation in Cawley I have gotten to an extract from her will of November 1293, in which she describes herself as "dominæ Joannæ de Monteforti, quondam comitissæ Forensis, uxorisque quondam illustris domini Ludovici de Sabaudia, domini Vaudi" (Jean Marie de La Mure, Histoire des ducs de Bourbon et des comtes de Forez, III: 73-74, viewable at https://books.google.com/books?id=PMvkAAAAMAAJ). So she clearly was a Montfort of some sort. But (as also already pointed out by Cawley) neither she nor any of her (very many) children appear in the 1295 charter by which Joannes, Laura and Elienoris de Monteforti as children of D. Philippi de Monteforti and D. Joannæ de Leviers assign a portion of their estates to Elienoris (Cartulaire de l'abbaye de Notre-Dame de La Roche, pp. 458-459, viewable at https://books.google.com/books?id=wsEQAAAAIAAJ).
So what is the evidence (earlier than Du Chesne) that this Jeanne de Montfort was the daughter of specifically Philippe II de Montfort-Castres and not of one of the many other Montforts floating around out there?
I have a note indicating that her parentage may be stated in an act of
Louis IX dated December 1268, but I can't track this further at present.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2021-03-27 02:11:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Carl-Henry Geschwind
Jeanne de Montfort, wife of Guy VI Comte de Forez and then of Louis de
Savoie, Seigneur de Vaud, is shown as the daughter of Philippe II de
Montfort, Seigneur de Castres, and his wife Jeanne de Lévis by both
Père Anselme (in Histoire généalogique et chronologique de la Maison
Royale de France, VI: 80, viewable at
https://digital.ub.uni-duesseldorf.de/ihd/content/pageview/8915808)
and by André Du Chesne (in Histoire des rois, ducs, et comtes de
Bourgogne et d'Arles, p. 437, viewable at
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1056857z/f461.item). This
assignment has been adopted by ESNF 3:643, as shown at
https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00079354&tree=LEO
But what are the contemporary or near-contemporary documents
supporting this parentage? From a citation in Cawley I have gotten to
an extract from her will of November 1293, in which she describes
herself as "dominæ Joannæ de Monteforti, quondam comitissæ Forensis,
uxorisque quondam illustris domini Ludovici de Sabaudia, domini Vaudi"
(Jean Marie de La Mure, Histoire des ducs de Bourbon et des comtes de
Forez, III: 73-74, viewable at
https://books.google.com/books?id=PMvkAAAAMAAJ). So she clearly was a
Montfort of some sort. But (as also already pointed out by Cawley)
neither she nor any of her (very many) children appear in the 1295
charter by which Joannes, Laura and Elienoris de Monteforti as
children of D. Philippi de Monteforti and D. Joannæ de Leviers assign
a portion of their estates to Elienoris (Cartulaire de l'abbaye de
Notre-Dame de La Roche, pp. 458-459, viewable at
https://books.google.com/books?id=wsEQAAAAIAAJ).
So what is the evidence (earlier than Du Chesne) that this Jeanne de
Montfort was the daughter of specifically Philippe II de
Montfort-Castres and not of one of the many other Montforts floating
around out there?
I have a note indicating that her parentage may be stated in an act of
Louis IX dated December 1268, but I can't track this further at present.
Apologies, I should have read my note more thoroughly - the original act
of Louis IX stating that she was daughter of Philippe can be seen here:

https://archives.cotedor.fr/v2/site/AD21/Apprendre/Atelier_du_chancelier_Rolin/Paleographie/Groupe_debutants/Documents_etudies_en_2015-2016/Document_1_-_Mariage_de_Jeanne_fille_de_Philippe_de_Montfort_et_Guyon_fils_de_Renaud_de_Forez

Peter Stewart
Carl-Henry Geschwind
2021-03-27 02:25:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
I have a note indicating that her parentage may be stated in an act of
Louis IX dated December 1268, but I can't track this further at present.
Apologies, I should have read my note more thoroughly - the original act
https://archives.cotedor.fr/v2/site/AD21/Apprendre/Atelier_du_chancelier_Rolin/Paleographie/Groupe_debutants/Documents_etudies_en_2015-2016/Document_1_-_Mariage_de_Jeanne_fille_de_Philippe_de_Montfort_et_Guyon_fils_de_Renaud_de_Forez
Peter Stewart
Beautiful - thanks so much! That will add some interesting crusaders to my tree.
Peter Stewart
2021-03-27 05:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Carl-Henry Geschwind
Jeanne de Montfort, wife of Guy VI Comte de Forez and then of Louis
de Savoie, Seigneur de Vaud, is shown as the daughter of Philippe II
de Montfort, Seigneur de Castres, and his wife Jeanne de Lévis by
both Père Anselme (in Histoire généalogique et chronologique de la
Maison Royale de France, VI: 80, viewable at
https://digital.ub.uni-duesseldorf.de/ihd/content/pageview/8915808)
and by André Du Chesne (in Histoire des rois, ducs, et comtes de
Bourgogne et d'Arles, p. 437, viewable at
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1056857z/f461.item). This
assignment has been adopted by ESNF 3:643, as shown at
https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00079354&tree=LEO
But what are the contemporary or near-contemporary documents
supporting this parentage? From a citation in Cawley I have gotten to
an extract from her will of November 1293, in which she describes
herself as "dominæ Joannæ de Monteforti, quondam comitissæ Forensis,
uxorisque quondam illustris domini Ludovici de Sabaudia, domini
Vaudi" (Jean Marie de La Mure, Histoire des ducs de Bourbon et des
comtes de Forez, III: 73-74, viewable at
https://books.google.com/books?id=PMvkAAAAMAAJ). So she clearly was a
Montfort of some sort. But (as also already pointed out by Cawley)
neither she nor any of her (very many) children appear in the 1295
charter by which Joannes, Laura and Elienoris de Monteforti as
children of D. Philippi de Monteforti and D. Joannæ de Leviers assign
a portion of their estates to Elienoris (Cartulaire de l'abbaye de
Notre-Dame de La Roche, pp. 458-459, viewable at
https://books.google.com/books?id=wsEQAAAAIAAJ).
So what is the evidence (earlier than Du Chesne) that this Jeanne de
Montfort was the daughter of specifically Philippe II de
Montfort-Castres and not of one of the many other Montforts floating
around out there?
I have a note indicating that her parentage may be stated in an act of
Louis IX dated December 1268, but I can't track this further at present.
Apologies, I should have read my note more thoroughly - the original act
https://archives.cotedor.fr/v2/site/AD21/Apprendre/Atelier_du_chancelier_Rolin/Paleographie/Groupe_debutants/Documents_etudies_en_2015-2016/Document_1_-_Mariage_de_Jeanne_fille_de_Philippe_de_Montfort_et_Guyon_fils_de_Renaud_de_Forez
I just noticed for the first time that the header (? is that the word)
in my posts contains this odd descriptor:

"Organization A noiseless patient Spider"

Maybe this is put on every Usenet posting through Eternal September, but
if not it's a mystery to me as no-one could be less like a spider in
either noiselessness or patience than I am.

Anyway, having collected my thoughts after some muddled e-mails to
Carl-Henry off-list, I should explain that Jeanne's father Philippe is
fully identifed in Louis IX's 1268 charter as belonging to the
Montfort-l'Amaury family, as son of his namesake who was called lord of
Tyre ("seigneur de Sur") in the text.

Philippe senior, Jeanne's paternal grandfather, was seigneur of Toron by
right of his second wife, Marie of Antioch. In 1246 he was given charge
of Tyre (called Sur from its name in Arabic) and was known as its
seigneur from that time although not officially given this title until
1269, the year before he was murdered. His elder son by Marie, Jean de
Montfort (died childless on 27 November 1283), was confirmed as heir to
Tyre on condition that he should marry his second cousin twice removed,
Marguerite of Antioch, who survived him as lady of Tyre in her own right
until dying as a nun in January 1308. However, after Jean's death his
younger full-brother Humphrey (died 2 February 1284) was called lord of
Tyre, because he had not been compensated for money spent on fortifying
it, and his descendants continued to use the title after Marguerite's death.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2021-03-27 08:27:18 UTC
Permalink
On 27-Mar-21 4:11 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

<snip>
Post by Peter Stewart
Philippe senior, Jeanne's paternal grandfather, was seigneur of Toron by
right of his second wife, Marie of Antioch. In 1246 he was given charge
of Tyre (called Sur from its name in Arabic) and was known as its
seigneur from that time although not officially given this title until
1269, the year before he was murdered. His elder son by Marie, Jean de
Montfort (died childless on 27 November 1283), was confirmed as heir to
Tyre on condition that he should marry his second cousin twice removed,
Marguerite of Antioch, who survived him as lady of Tyre in her own right
until dying as a nun in January 1308.
Ah, still muddle-headed after all - make that "on condition that he
should marry his second cousin once removed ...": Marguerite was the
agnatic second cousin of Jean's mother Marie.

Peter Stewart
J. Sardina
2021-04-02 00:11:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
<snip>
Post by Peter Stewart
Philippe senior, Jeanne's paternal grandfather, was seigneur of Toron by
right of his second wife, Marie of Antioch. In 1246 he was given charge
of Tyre (called Sur from its name in Arabic) and was known as its
seigneur from that time although not officially given this title until
1269, the year before he was murdered. His elder son by Marie, Jean de
Montfort (died childless on 27 November 1283), was confirmed as heir to
Tyre on condition that he should marry his second cousin twice removed,
Marguerite of Antioch, who survived him as lady of Tyre in her own right
until dying as a nun in January 1308.
Ah, still muddle-headed after all - make that "on condition that he
should marry his second cousin once removed ...": Marguerite was the
agnatic second cousin of Jean's mother Marie.
Peter Stewart
Hello,

I was replying to the message a few minutes ago, but this new version of Google provides some rather annoying features, one of which makes the page disappear in the middle of typing.

I am wondering if there is documentation regarding all the known daughters of that line. I have been trying to prove or disprove that the wife of a vicomte d'Orthe was one Amicia de Montfort, said to be a daughter of Philippe (not sure if the first or the second one).

The claim is mentioned in a genealogy of the vicomtes listed at:

LANDES EN VRAC
SOUVENIRS ET TÉMOIGNAGES DU PASSÉ ET PETIT PATRIMOINE LANDAIS.
http://landesenvrac.blogspot.com/2010/01/dorthe-corheta.html

The same genealogy gives other wives as Adelaide d'Anjou, Aumus de Cognac, Marie de Lusignan, and Guiscarde d'Arraux.

J. Sardina
Peter Stewart
2021-04-02 05:39:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
<snip>
Post by Peter Stewart
Philippe senior, Jeanne's paternal grandfather, was seigneur of Toron by
right of his second wife, Marie of Antioch. In 1246 he was given charge
of Tyre (called Sur from its name in Arabic) and was known as its
seigneur from that time although not officially given this title until
1269, the year before he was murdered. His elder son by Marie, Jean de
Montfort (died childless on 27 November 1283), was confirmed as heir to
Tyre on condition that he should marry his second cousin twice removed,
Marguerite of Antioch, who survived him as lady of Tyre in her own right
until dying as a nun in January 1308.
Ah, still muddle-headed after all - make that "on condition that he
should marry his second cousin once removed ...": Marguerite was the
agnatic second cousin of Jean's mother Marie.
Peter Stewart
Hello,
I was replying to the message a few minutes ago, but this new version of Google provides some rather annoying features, one of which makes the page disappear in the middle of typing.
I am wondering if there is documentation regarding all the known daughters of that line. I have been trying to prove or disprove that the wife of a vicomte d'Orthe was one Amicia de Montfort, said to be a daughter of Philippe (not sure if the first or the second one).
LANDES EN VRAC
SOUVENIRS ET TÉMOIGNAGES DU PASSÉ ET PETIT PATRIMOINE LANDAIS.
http://landesenvrac.blogspot.com/2010/01/dorthe-corheta.html
The same genealogy gives other wives as Adelaide d'Anjou, Aumus de Cognac, Marie de Lusignan, and Guiscarde d'Arraux.
As with so many websites, this one would be better ignored or at least
treated with great caution - the wives given for viscounts of Orthe
appear to be a mix of fact and fiction.

I don't have time to look into this further at the moment, but off the
top of my head the two wives given for Loup Garcie II (1146-1212) are
both highly suspect: "Melissende de Moncade" and then ca 1175 "Adélaïde,
fille du comte Guillaume de Penthievre comte d’Anjou, cousine germaine
de Richard comte de Poitiers, et nièce du roi Henri II Plantagenêt". In
an undated charter for Cagnotte written ca 1180 Loup Garcie II named his
wife as Dalas. Henry II's brother Guillaume was not count of Penthievre
or of Anjou, and he died unmarried not long after Thomas Becket had
forbidden a projected union with Isabel de Warenne (who subsequently
married his illegitimate half-brother Hamelin) on the grounds of
consanguinity through his mother Matilda.

Loup Garcie II's grandson Loup Raymond is said to have married a
granddaughter of Richard I (misnumbered II), "Almodis de Cognac", who
would have been his second cousin according to the scheme presented, as
well as being the granddaughter of his father's godfather - two
impediments that would each have required dispensation.

I don't recall ever having come across the "Marie de Lusignan" or
"Amicia, fille de Philippe 1er de Montfort-l'Amaury" named there.

Peter Stewart
J. Sardina
2021-04-02 23:59:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
<snip>
Post by Peter Stewart
Philippe senior, Jeanne's paternal grandfather, was seigneur of Toron by
right of his second wife, Marie of Antioch. In 1246 he was given charge
of Tyre (called Sur from its name in Arabic) and was known as its
seigneur from that time although not officially given this title until
1269, the year before he was murdered. His elder son by Marie, Jean de
Montfort (died childless on 27 November 1283), was confirmed as heir to
Tyre on condition that he should marry his second cousin twice removed,
Marguerite of Antioch, who survived him as lady of Tyre in her own right
until dying as a nun in January 1308.
Ah, still muddle-headed after all - make that "on condition that he
should marry his second cousin once removed ...": Marguerite was the
agnatic second cousin of Jean's mother Marie.
Peter Stewart
Hello,
I was replying to the message a few minutes ago, but this new version of Google provides some rather annoying features, one of which makes the page disappear in the middle of typing.
I am wondering if there is documentation regarding all the known daughters of that line. I have been trying to prove or disprove that the wife of a vicomte d'Orthe was one Amicia de Montfort, said to be a daughter of Philippe (not sure if the first or the second one).
LANDES EN VRAC
SOUVENIRS ET TÉMOIGNAGES DU PASSÉ ET PETIT PATRIMOINE LANDAIS.
http://landesenvrac.blogspot.com/2010/01/dorthe-corheta.html
The same genealogy gives other wives as Adelaide d'Anjou, Aumus de Cognac, Marie de Lusignan, and Guiscarde d'Arraux.
As with so many websites, this one would be better ignored or at least
treated with great caution - the wives given for viscounts of Orthe
appear to be a mix of fact and fiction.
I don't have time to look into this further at the moment, but off the
top of my head the two wives given for Loup Garcie II (1146-1212) are
both highly suspect: "Melissende de Moncade" and then ca 1175 "Adélaïde,
fille du comte Guillaume de Penthievre comte d’Anjou, cousine germaine
de Richard comte de Poitiers, et nièce du roi Henri II Plantagenêt". In
an undated charter for Cagnotte written ca 1180 Loup Garcie II named his
wife as Dalas. Henry II's brother Guillaume was not count of Penthievre
or of Anjou, and he died unmarried not long after Thomas Becket had
forbidden a projected union with Isabel de Warenne (who subsequently
married his illegitimate half-brother Hamelin) on the grounds of
consanguinity through his mother Matilda.
Loup Garcie II's grandson Loup Raymond is said to have married a
granddaughter of Richard I (misnumbered II), "Almodis de Cognac", who
would have been his second cousin according to the scheme presented, as
well as being the granddaughter of his father's godfather - two
impediments that would each have required dispensation.
I don't recall ever having come across the "Marie de Lusignan" or
"Amicia, fille de Philippe 1er de Montfort-l'Amaury" named there.
Peter Stewart
Yes. It is a very strange mixture. Part of the information seems to come from the cartulary of Note Dame de Corheta, but apparently some of the information on the tombs of the viscounts, with names and dates is from a manuscript of 1653.

I am trying find out if an article published in 1977 about archeological work at the abbey brings any information.

The article was included in the Bulletin de la société DE BORDA - N° 366 - Cent-deuxième année - Deuxième trimestre - 1977:

ISBD : Sépultures vicomtales d’Orthe en l’abbatiale Notre-Dame de Corheta/ Richard Bavoillot. - Dax : Société de Borda, 1977. - p. 159-194. (Bulletin de la Société de Borda ; 2. - ISSN 0337-0267).

Juan
Peter Stewart
2021-04-05 01:06:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
<snip>
Post by Peter Stewart
Philippe senior, Jeanne's paternal grandfather, was seigneur of Toron by
right of his second wife, Marie of Antioch. In 1246 he was given charge
of Tyre (called Sur from its name in Arabic) and was known as its
seigneur from that time although not officially given this title until
1269, the year before he was murdered. His elder son by Marie, Jean de
Montfort (died childless on 27 November 1283), was confirmed as heir to
Tyre on condition that he should marry his second cousin twice removed,
Marguerite of Antioch, who survived him as lady of Tyre in her own right
until dying as a nun in January 1308.
Ah, still muddle-headed after all - make that "on condition that he
should marry his second cousin once removed ...": Marguerite was the
agnatic second cousin of Jean's mother Marie.
Peter Stewart
Hello,
I was replying to the message a few minutes ago, but this new version of Google provides some rather annoying features, one of which makes the page disappear in the middle of typing.
I am wondering if there is documentation regarding all the known daughters of that line. I have been trying to prove or disprove that the wife of a vicomte d'Orthe was one Amicia de Montfort, said to be a daughter of Philippe (not sure if the first or the second one).
LANDES EN VRAC
SOUVENIRS ET TÉMOIGNAGES DU PASSÉ ET PETIT PATRIMOINE LANDAIS.
http://landesenvrac.blogspot.com/2010/01/dorthe-corheta.html
The same genealogy gives other wives as Adelaide d'Anjou, Aumus de Cognac, Marie de Lusignan, and Guiscarde d'Arraux.
As with so many websites, this one would be better ignored or at least
treated with great caution - the wives given for viscounts of Orthe
appear to be a mix of fact and fiction.
I don't have time to look into this further at the moment, but off the
top of my head the two wives given for Loup Garcie II (1146-1212) are
both highly suspect: "Melissende de Moncade" and then ca 1175 "Adélaïde,
fille du comte Guillaume de Penthievre comte d’Anjou, cousine germaine
de Richard comte de Poitiers, et nièce du roi Henri II Plantagenêt". In
an undated charter for Cagnotte written ca 1180 Loup Garcie II named his
wife as Dalas. Henry II's brother Guillaume was not count of Penthievre
or of Anjou, and he died unmarried not long after Thomas Becket had
forbidden a projected union with Isabel de Warenne (who subsequently
married his illegitimate half-brother Hamelin) on the grounds of
consanguinity through his mother Matilda.
Loup Garcie II's grandson Loup Raymond is said to have married a
granddaughter of Richard I (misnumbered II), "Almodis de Cognac", who
would have been his second cousin according to the scheme presented, as
well as being the granddaughter of his father's godfather - two
impediments that would each have required dispensation.
I don't recall ever having come across the "Marie de Lusignan" or
"Amicia, fille de Philippe 1er de Montfort-l'Amaury" named there.
Peter Stewart
Yes. It is a very strange mixture. Part of the information seems to come from the cartulary of Note Dame de Corheta, but apparently some of the information on the tombs of the viscounts, with names and dates is from a manuscript of 1653.
I am trying find out if an article published in 1977 about archeological work at the abbey brings any information.
ISBD : Sépultures vicomtales d’Orthe en l’abbatiale Notre-Dame de Corheta/ Richard Bavoillot. - Dax : Société de Borda, 1977. - p. 159-194. (Bulletin de la Société de Borda ; 2. - ISSN 0337-0267).
The manuscript of 1653 is evidently unpublished in full and belongs to
Richard Bavoillot. I assume this is his source for making the wife of
Loup Garsie II into a niece of Henry II named Adelaide, but I have not
seen his 1977 article so this is just a guess - I can't find any other
authority for such an implausible connection.

The only extract I have seen from Bavoillot's document is in vol. 6 of
*Corpus des inscriptions de la France médiévale* (1981) p. 88, an
epitaph supposedly placed on his tomb by "Loup-Garsie, comte d'Orthe,
seigneur de toute la province" and the abbot of Cagnotte in December
1189 for the (vis)count's paternal grandfather who had died in 1146. It
is a brazen puff for the deceased, maybe fitting a pattern for the
entire family: "Seule gît ici la dépouille du glorieux seigneur
Raimond-Sanche d'Orthe, qui trépassa le 2 des ides de décembre, en l'an
1146, après l'incarnation de Notre-Seigneur. Par ses multiples qualités,
il fut grand dans la vie terrestre, il soulagea les faibles, réaffermit
ceux qui étaient sans courage, abaissa les fourbes et les iniques, fut
un pilier du Temple de l'Eternel, protecteur et aimé de l'Eglise
universelle. Son âme est en la Jérusalem céleste. Ainsi soit-il un
exemple." Modest, not.

The only extant source for Loup Garsie's charter naming his wife as
Dalas is a 17th-century transcription here (no. 4):

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8453972z/f18.item.r=12680

This follows a charter dated 1180 in which Loup Garsie mentions his
mother but not a wife. 'Dalas' perhaps may be a scribal oddity for the
name Adelais, but any link to the Angevin family must be drawn from
somewhere else. As I wrote before, Henry II's brother Guillaume had no
legitimate offspring and as far as I'm aware no illegitimate daughter.
Their half-brother Hamelin had several daughters, but all of them were
married to Anglo-Norman husbands. Loup Garsie joined a rebellion against
Richard I and supposedly in submitting after defeat asked him to become
god-father to his second son - this episode does not strike me as wholly
consistent with either prior or subsequent marriage to a first cousin of
Richard.

The series of wives from the Angevin, Montfort and Lusignan families are
all highly questionable, since such minor feudatories as the viscounts
of Orthe are hardly likely to have scored celebrated in-laws repeatedly,
if ever.

Peter Stewart
J. Sardina
2021-04-05 22:14:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by J. Sardina
Hello,
I was replying to the message a few minutes ago, but this new version of Google provides some rather annoying features, one of which makes the page disappear in the middle of typing.
I am wondering if there is documentation regarding all the known daughters of that line. I have been trying to prove or disprove that the wife of a vicomte d'Orthe was one Amicia de Montfort, said to be a daughter of Philippe (not sure if the first or the second one).
LANDES EN VRAC
SOUVENIRS ET TÉMOIGNAGES DU PASSÉ ET PETIT PATRIMOINE LANDAIS.
http://landesenvrac.blogspot.com/2010/01/dorthe-corheta.html
The same genealogy gives other wives as Adelaide d'Anjou, Aumus de Cognac, Marie de Lusignan, and Guiscarde d'Arraux.
As with so many websites, this one would be better ignored or at least
treated with great caution - the wives given for viscounts of Orthe
appear to be a mix of fact and fiction.
I don't have time to look into this further at the moment, but off the
top of my head the two wives given for Loup Garcie II (1146-1212) are
both highly suspect: "Melissende de Moncade" and then ca 1175 "Adélaïde,
fille du comte Guillaume de Penthievre comte d’Anjou, cousine germaine
de Richard comte de Poitiers, et nièce du roi Henri II Plantagenêt". In
an undated charter for Cagnotte written ca 1180 Loup Garcie II named his
wife as Dalas. Henry II's brother Guillaume was not count of Penthievre
or of Anjou, and he died unmarried not long after Thomas Becket had
forbidden a projected union with Isabel de Warenne (who subsequently
married his illegitimate half-brother Hamelin) on the grounds of
consanguinity through his mother Matilda.
Loup Garcie II's grandson Loup Raymond is said to have married a
granddaughter of Richard I (misnumbered II), "Almodis de Cognac", who
would have been his second cousin according to the scheme presented, as
well as being the granddaughter of his father's godfather - two
impediments that would each have required dispensation.
I don't recall ever having come across the "Marie de Lusignan" or
"Amicia, fille de Philippe 1er de Montfort-l'Amaury" named there.
Peter Stewart
Yes. It is a very strange mixture. Part of the information seems to come from the cartulary of Note Dame de Corheta, but apparently some of the information on the tombs of the viscounts, with names and dates is from a manuscript of 1653.
I am trying find out if an article published in 1977 about archeological work at the abbey brings any information.
ISBD : Sépultures vicomtales d’Orthe en l’abbatiale Notre-Dame de Corheta/ Richard Bavoillot. - Dax : Société de Borda, 1977. - p. 159-194. (Bulletin de la Société de Borda ; 2. - ISSN 0337-0267).
The manuscript of 1653 is evidently unpublished in full and belongs to
Richard Bavoillot. I assume this is his source for making the wife of
Loup Garsie II into a niece of Henry II named Adelaide, but I have not
seen his 1977 article so this is just a guess - I can't find any other
authority for such an implausible connection.
The only extract I have seen from Bavoillot's document is in vol. 6 of
*Corpus des inscriptions de la France médiévale* (1981) p. 88, an
epitaph supposedly placed on his tomb by "Loup-Garsie, comte d'Orthe,
seigneur de toute la province" and the abbot of Cagnotte in December
1189 for the (vis)count's paternal grandfather who had died in 1146. It
is a brazen puff for the deceased, maybe fitting a pattern for the
entire family: "Seule gît ici la dépouille du glorieux seigneur
Raimond-Sanche d'Orthe, qui trépassa le 2 des ides de décembre, en l'an
1146, après l'incarnation de Notre-Seigneur. Par ses multiples qualités,
il fut grand dans la vie terrestre, il soulagea les faibles, réaffermit
ceux qui étaient sans courage, abaissa les fourbes et les iniques, fut
un pilier du Temple de l'Eternel, protecteur et aimé de l'Eglise
universelle. Son âme est en la Jérusalem céleste. Ainsi soit-il un
exemple." Modest, not.
The only extant source for Loup Garsie's charter naming his wife as
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8453972z/f18.item.r=12680
This follows a charter dated 1180 in which Loup Garsie mentions his
mother but not a wife. 'Dalas' perhaps may be a scribal oddity for the
name Adelais, but any link to the Angevin family must be drawn from
somewhere else. As I wrote before, Henry II's brother Guillaume had no
legitimate offspring and as far as I'm aware no illegitimate daughter.
Their half-brother Hamelin had several daughters, but all of them were
married to Anglo-Norman husbands. Loup Garsie joined a rebellion against
Richard I and supposedly in submitting after defeat asked him to become
god-father to his second son - this episode does not strike me as wholly
consistent with either prior or subsequent marriage to a first cousin of
Richard.
The series of wives from the Angevin, Montfort and Lusignan families are
all highly questionable, since such minor feudatories as the viscounts
of Orthe are hardly likely to have scored celebrated in-laws repeatedly,
if ever.
Peter Stewart
Hello,

Thanks for taking the time to look up the references. I have been chasing one that saw in Geneanet of all places.
It is apparently from a simposium on English influence on western France, but it seems to be coming from a quote taken from a transcription of some grants made to the abbey by non other than queen Eleanor of Aquitaine. Apparently the grant involved income from Bordeaux and was given by the queen and mentioned Adelaide specifically, though apparently it does not specify if and how they were related.
it is not clear if any of charts have survived or if we just have their summaries.

As far as I can tell, there is a lengthy process in the 17the century between the viscounts, the abbey and the town, and considerable evidence was presented, possibly including descriptions of the burials located at the abbey and charts. Part of this documentation may have been published by the historical society mentioned above, but finding the exact articles is a chore in its own. Apparently, that documentation includes a drawing of Adelaide's alleged gisant.

The reference given at the Geneanet entry is as follow:


Source: L''Aquitaine au temps du Prince Noir: Actes du Colloque de Dax (2010)

This is apparently based on a donation made by:

Aliénor d'Aquitaine "pour être agréable à sa chère Adélaïde", fait don à l'abbaye de ses rentes dans le comté de Bordeaux,
itself included in a chart of the Cartulaire de Cagnotte

I have not been able to find out at what point the alleged family connections of those wives were proposed or if there was any specific documentation that would suggest that any one of them was a niece, daughter or cousin of the representatives of the corresponding families.

Aumus de Cognac, assuming that was her name and family, is almost certainly not a grand-daughter of Richard I. It seems that his alleged illegitimate son did marry a lady from that family but didn't have surviving children.

How the supposed Amicie de Montfort came about is a mystery, but it might just be that a chart mentions one Amicia as the wife or mother of a viscount, and some genealogist though the most likely explanation was a member of the Montfort family.

juan
Peter Stewart
2021-04-05 23:39:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by J. Sardina
Hello,
I was replying to the message a few minutes ago, but this new version of Google provides some rather annoying features, one of which makes the page disappear in the middle of typing.
I am wondering if there is documentation regarding all the known daughters of that line. I have been trying to prove or disprove that the wife of a vicomte d'Orthe was one Amicia de Montfort, said to be a daughter of Philippe (not sure if the first or the second one).
LANDES EN VRAC
SOUVENIRS ET TÉMOIGNAGES DU PASSÉ ET PETIT PATRIMOINE LANDAIS.
http://landesenvrac.blogspot.com/2010/01/dorthe-corheta.html
The same genealogy gives other wives as Adelaide d'Anjou, Aumus de Cognac, Marie de Lusignan, and Guiscarde d'Arraux.
As with so many websites, this one would be better ignored or at least
treated with great caution - the wives given for viscounts of Orthe
appear to be a mix of fact and fiction.
I don't have time to look into this further at the moment, but off the
top of my head the two wives given for Loup Garcie II (1146-1212) are
both highly suspect: "Melissende de Moncade" and then ca 1175 "Adélaïde,
fille du comte Guillaume de Penthievre comte d’Anjou, cousine germaine
de Richard comte de Poitiers, et nièce du roi Henri II Plantagenêt". In
an undated charter for Cagnotte written ca 1180 Loup Garcie II named his
wife as Dalas. Henry II's brother Guillaume was not count of Penthievre
or of Anjou, and he died unmarried not long after Thomas Becket had
forbidden a projected union with Isabel de Warenne (who subsequently
married his illegitimate half-brother Hamelin) on the grounds of
consanguinity through his mother Matilda.
Loup Garcie II's grandson Loup Raymond is said to have married a
granddaughter of Richard I (misnumbered II), "Almodis de Cognac", who
would have been his second cousin according to the scheme presented, as
well as being the granddaughter of his father's godfather - two
impediments that would each have required dispensation.
I don't recall ever having come across the "Marie de Lusignan" or
"Amicia, fille de Philippe 1er de Montfort-l'Amaury" named there.
Peter Stewart
Yes. It is a very strange mixture. Part of the information seems to come from the cartulary of Note Dame de Corheta, but apparently some of the information on the tombs of the viscounts, with names and dates is from a manuscript of 1653.
I am trying find out if an article published in 1977 about archeological work at the abbey brings any information.
ISBD : Sépultures vicomtales d’Orthe en l’abbatiale Notre-Dame de Corheta/ Richard Bavoillot. - Dax : Société de Borda, 1977. - p. 159-194. (Bulletin de la Société de Borda ; 2. - ISSN 0337-0267).
The manuscript of 1653 is evidently unpublished in full and belongs to
Richard Bavoillot. I assume this is his source for making the wife of
Loup Garsie II into a niece of Henry II named Adelaide, but I have not
seen his 1977 article so this is just a guess - I can't find any other
authority for such an implausible connection.
The only extract I have seen from Bavoillot's document is in vol. 6 of
*Corpus des inscriptions de la France médiévale* (1981) p. 88, an
epitaph supposedly placed on his tomb by "Loup-Garsie, comte d'Orthe,
seigneur de toute la province" and the abbot of Cagnotte in December
1189 for the (vis)count's paternal grandfather who had died in 1146. It
is a brazen puff for the deceased, maybe fitting a pattern for the
entire family: "Seule gît ici la dépouille du glorieux seigneur
Raimond-Sanche d'Orthe, qui trépassa le 2 des ides de décembre, en l'an
1146, après l'incarnation de Notre-Seigneur. Par ses multiples qualités,
il fut grand dans la vie terrestre, il soulagea les faibles, réaffermit
ceux qui étaient sans courage, abaissa les fourbes et les iniques, fut
un pilier du Temple de l'Eternel, protecteur et aimé de l'Eglise
universelle. Son âme est en la Jérusalem céleste. Ainsi soit-il un
exemple." Modest, not.
The only extant source for Loup Garsie's charter naming his wife as
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8453972z/f18.item.r=12680
This follows a charter dated 1180 in which Loup Garsie mentions his
mother but not a wife. 'Dalas' perhaps may be a scribal oddity for the
name Adelais, but any link to the Angevin family must be drawn from
somewhere else. As I wrote before, Henry II's brother Guillaume had no
legitimate offspring and as far as I'm aware no illegitimate daughter.
Their half-brother Hamelin had several daughters, but all of them were
married to Anglo-Norman husbands. Loup Garsie joined a rebellion against
Richard I and supposedly in submitting after defeat asked him to become
god-father to his second son - this episode does not strike me as wholly
consistent with either prior or subsequent marriage to a first cousin of
Richard.
The series of wives from the Angevin, Montfort and Lusignan families are
all highly questionable, since such minor feudatories as the viscounts
of Orthe are hardly likely to have scored celebrated in-laws repeatedly,
if ever.
Peter Stewart
Hello,
Thanks for taking the time to look up the references. I have been chasing one that saw in Geneanet of all places.
It is apparently from a simposium on English influence on western France, but it seems to be coming from a quote taken from a transcription of some grants made to the abbey by non other than queen Eleanor of Aquitaine. Apparently the grant involved income from Bordeaux and was given by the queen and mentioned Adelaide specifically, though apparently it does not specify if and how they were related.
it is not clear if any of charts have survived or if we just have their summaries.
As far as I can tell, there is a lengthy process in the 17the century between the viscounts, the abbey and the town, and considerable evidence was presented, possibly including descriptions of the burials located at the abbey and charts. Part of this documentation may have been published by the historical society mentioned above, but finding the exact articles is a chore in its own. Apparently, that documentation includes a drawing of Adelaide's alleged gisant.
Source: L''Aquitaine au temps du Prince Noir: Actes du Colloque de Dax (2010)
Aliénor d'Aquitaine "pour être agréable à sa chère Adélaïde", fait don à l'abbaye de ses rentes dans le comté de Bordeaux,
itself included in a chart of the Cartulaire de Cagnotte
This is very interesting, but not to me convincing evidence without
actually seeing the purported cartulary of Cagnotte. It is not certain
that a cartulary of Notre-Dame de Cagnotte abbey ever existed according
to Henri Stein, repeated (here
http://www.cn-telma.fr/cartulR/entite2088/) well after Richard Bavoillot
had started publishing quotations apparently taken from at least two
separate versions of such as alleged source.

The only extant Cagnotte charters listed by Stein are in the
17th-century transcriptions that I linked to upthread, in vol. 23 of the
Bibliothèque nationale's 'Monasticon benedictinum' collection, published
by Antoine Degert in 'Fragment du cartulaire de Cagnotte', *Bulletin de
la Société de Borda* 31 (1906) pp 49-58.

An informant off-list tells me that Bavoillot cited an alleged testament
dated 21 May 1200 of Loup-Garcie II's wife Adelaide (aka Dalas, died 2
August 1215) naming her father as "Guillaume d'Anjou" and her mother as
"dame Constance". The citation given for this is said to be unverifiable
by a person living in France who would normally have little trouble over
similar references, and I can't make head or tail of the details as
copied directly from Bavoillot's article ("charte LXV, B, 2e cartulaire,
cahier B doss. Vergès et transcription"). The 1653 report was said by
the editors of "Corpus des inscriptions" to be in the possession of
Bavoillot personally when they quoted his translation from it in 1981.
Curious.
Post by J. Sardina
I have not been able to find out at what point the alleged family connections of those wives were proposed or if there was any specific documentation that would suggest that any one of them was a niece, daughter or cousin of the representatives of the corresponding families.
Aumus de Cognac, assuming that was her name and family, is almost certainly not a grand-daughter of Richard I. It seems that his alleged illegitimate son did marry a lady from that family but didn't have surviving children.
How the supposed Amicie de Montfort came about is a mystery, but it might just be that a chart mentions one Amicia as the wife or mother of a viscount, and some genealogist though the most likely explanation was a member of the Montfort family.
Very rum indeed, along with the Lusignan and Anjou connections - if
anything like this had happened in the 18th or 19th century it might
have been closely examined as a possible fraud, but in the late-20th
century no-one would suspect such a thing. Perhaps Bavoillot lived up to
his obligation by making his sources available to other scholars since
1977, but if so it's odd that others have not used these more widely
before now.

Peter Stewart
J. Sardina
2021-04-07 23:22:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by J. Sardina
Hello,
I was replying to the message a few minutes ago, but this new version of Google provides some rather annoying features, one of which makes the page disappear in the middle of typing.
I am wondering if there is documentation regarding all the known daughters of that line. I have been trying to prove or disprove that the wife of a vicomte d'Orthe was one Amicia de Montfort, said to be a daughter of Philippe (not sure if the first or the second one).
LANDES EN VRAC
SOUVENIRS ET TÉMOIGNAGES DU PASSÉ ET PETIT PATRIMOINE LANDAIS.
http://landesenvrac.blogspot.com/2010/01/dorthe-corheta.html
The same genealogy gives other wives as Adelaide d'Anjou, Aumus de Cognac, Marie de Lusignan, and Guiscarde d'Arraux.
As with so many websites, this one would be better ignored or at least
treated with great caution - the wives given for viscounts of Orthe
appear to be a mix of fact and fiction.
I don't have time to look into this further at the moment, but off the
top of my head the two wives given for Loup Garcie II (1146-1212) are
both highly suspect: "Melissende de Moncade" and then ca 1175 "Adélaïde,
fille du comte Guillaume de Penthievre comte d’Anjou, cousine germaine
de Richard comte de Poitiers, et nièce du roi Henri II Plantagenêt". In
an undated charter for Cagnotte written ca 1180 Loup Garcie II named his
wife as Dalas. Henry II's brother Guillaume was not count of Penthievre
or of Anjou, and he died unmarried not long after Thomas Becket had
forbidden a projected union with Isabel de Warenne (who subsequently
married his illegitimate half-brother Hamelin) on the grounds of
consanguinity through his mother Matilda.
Loup Garcie II's grandson Loup Raymond is said to have married a
granddaughter of Richard I (misnumbered II), "Almodis de Cognac", who
would have been his second cousin according to the scheme presented, as
well as being the granddaughter of his father's godfather - two
impediments that would each have required dispensation.
I don't recall ever having come across the "Marie de Lusignan" or
"Amicia, fille de Philippe 1er de Montfort-l'Amaury" named there.
Peter Stewart
Yes. It is a very strange mixture. Part of the information seems to come from the cartulary of Note Dame de Corheta, but apparently some of the information on the tombs of the viscounts, with names and dates is from a manuscript of 1653.
I am trying find out if an article published in 1977 about archeological work at the abbey brings any information.
ISBD : Sépultures vicomtales d’Orthe en l’abbatiale Notre-Dame de Corheta/ Richard Bavoillot. - Dax : Société de Borda, 1977. - p. 159-194. (Bulletin de la Société de Borda ; 2. - ISSN 0337-0267).
The manuscript of 1653 is evidently unpublished in full and belongs to
Richard Bavoillot. I assume this is his source for making the wife of
Loup Garsie II into a niece of Henry II named Adelaide, but I have not
seen his 1977 article so this is just a guess - I can't find any other
authority for such an implausible connection.
The only extract I have seen from Bavoillot's document is in vol. 6 of
*Corpus des inscriptions de la France médiévale* (1981) p. 88, an
epitaph supposedly placed on his tomb by "Loup-Garsie, comte d'Orthe,
seigneur de toute la province" and the abbot of Cagnotte in December
1189 for the (vis)count's paternal grandfather who had died in 1146. It
is a brazen puff for the deceased, maybe fitting a pattern for the
entire family: "Seule gît ici la dépouille du glorieux seigneur
Raimond-Sanche d'Orthe, qui trépassa le 2 des ides de décembre, en l'an
1146, après l'incarnation de Notre-Seigneur. Par ses multiples qualités,
il fut grand dans la vie terrestre, il soulagea les faibles, réaffermit
ceux qui étaient sans courage, abaissa les fourbes et les iniques, fut
un pilier du Temple de l'Eternel, protecteur et aimé de l'Eglise
universelle. Son âme est en la Jérusalem céleste. Ainsi soit-il un
exemple." Modest, not.
The only extant source for Loup Garsie's charter naming his wife as
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8453972z/f18.item.r=12680
This follows a charter dated 1180 in which Loup Garsie mentions his
mother but not a wife. 'Dalas' perhaps may be a scribal oddity for the
name Adelais, but any link to the Angevin family must be drawn from
somewhere else. As I wrote before, Henry II's brother Guillaume had no
legitimate offspring and as far as I'm aware no illegitimate daughter.
Their half-brother Hamelin had several daughters, but all of them were
married to Anglo-Norman husbands. Loup Garsie joined a rebellion against
Richard I and supposedly in submitting after defeat asked him to become
god-father to his second son - this episode does not strike me as wholly
consistent with either prior or subsequent marriage to a first cousin of
Richard.
The series of wives from the Angevin, Montfort and Lusignan families are
all highly questionable, since such minor feudatories as the viscounts
of Orthe are hardly likely to have scored celebrated in-laws repeatedly,
if ever.
Peter Stewart
Hello,
Thanks for taking the time to look up the references. I have been chasing one that saw in Geneanet of all places.
It is apparently from a simposium on English influence on western France, but it seems to be coming from a quote taken from a transcription of some grants made to the abbey by non other than queen Eleanor of Aquitaine. Apparently the grant involved income from Bordeaux and was given by the queen and mentioned Adelaide specifically, though apparently it does not specify if and how they were related.
it is not clear if any of charts have survived or if we just have their summaries.
As far as I can tell, there is a lengthy process in the 17the century between the viscounts, the abbey and the town, and considerable evidence was presented, possibly including descriptions of the burials located at the abbey and charts. Part of this documentation may have been published by the historical society mentioned above, but finding the exact articles is a chore in its own. Apparently, that documentation includes a drawing of Adelaide's alleged gisant.
Source: L''Aquitaine au temps du Prince Noir: Actes du Colloque de Dax (2010)
Aliénor d'Aquitaine "pour être agréable à sa chère Adélaïde", fait don à l'abbaye de ses rentes dans le comté de Bordeaux,
itself included in a chart of the Cartulaire de Cagnotte
This is very interesting, but not to me convincing evidence without
actually seeing the purported cartulary of Cagnotte. It is not certain
that a cartulary of Notre-Dame de Cagnotte abbey ever existed according
to Henri Stein, repeated (here
http://www.cn-telma.fr/cartulR/entite2088/) well after Richard Bavoillot
had started publishing quotations apparently taken from at least two
separate versions of such as alleged source.
The only extant Cagnotte charters listed by Stein are in the
17th-century transcriptions that I linked to upthread, in vol. 23 of the
Bibliothèque nationale's 'Monasticon benedictinum' collection, published
by Antoine Degert in 'Fragment du cartulaire de Cagnotte', *Bulletin de
la Société de Borda* 31 (1906) pp 49-58.
An informant off-list tells me that Bavoillot cited an alleged testament
dated 21 May 1200 of Loup-Garcie II's wife Adelaide (aka Dalas, died 2
August 1215) naming her father as "Guillaume d'Anjou" and her mother as
"dame Constance". The citation given for this is said to be unverifiable
by a person living in France who would normally have little trouble over
similar references, and I can't make head or tail of the details as
copied directly from Bavoillot's article ("charte LXV, B, 2e cartulaire,
cahier B doss. Vergès et transcription"). The 1653 report was said by
the editors of "Corpus des inscriptions" to be in the possession of
Bavoillot personally when they quoted his translation from it in 1981.
Curious.
Post by J. Sardina
I have not been able to find out at what point the alleged family connections of those wives were proposed or if there was any specific documentation that would suggest that any one of them was a niece, daughter or cousin of the representatives of the corresponding families.
Aumus de Cognac, assuming that was her name and family, is almost certainly not a grand-daughter of Richard I. It seems that his alleged illegitimate son did marry a lady from that family but didn't have surviving children.
How the supposed Amicie de Montfort came about is a mystery, but it might just be that a chart mentions one Amicia as the wife or mother of a viscount, and some genealogist though the most likely explanation was a member of the Montfort family.
Very rum indeed, along with the Lusignan and Anjou connections - if
anything like this had happened in the 18th or 19th century it might
have been closely examined as a possible fraud, but in the late-20th
century no-one would suspect such a thing. Perhaps Bavoillot lived up to
his obligation by making his sources available to other scholars since
1977, but if so it's odd that others have not used these more widely
before now.
Peter Stewart
Hello,

I am afraid this research may take quite a long time. I will keep checking for articles published by the historical society of Borda for clues.

The 1906 article mentioned above ( 'Fragment du cartulaire de Cagnotte', *Bulletin de
la Société de Borda* 31 (1906) pp 49-58.) can be read online, but it doesn't throw light on the question of the various wives.

I would think that their names must be coming from alleged charts, but perhaps not all of them from Cagnotte, from which very few seem to be known.

Apparently some genealogists must have gotten hold of information, possibly based on Bavoillot's work, but not always documenting the exact source.

I am hoping that his article "Sépultures vicomtales d'Orthe en l'abbatiale Notre Dame de Corheta " published in Bulletin de la Société de Borda / Société de Borda. 102. (1977), pages 159-194 ties archeological findings to information from the 1653 investigation and/or quoted charts. The publication doesnt seem to available through WorldCat, but at least a couple of copies are available through various sellers. I am in the process of trying to secure one.

Juan
Peter Stewart
2021-04-08 00:38:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Sardina
I am afraid this research may take quite a long time. I will keep checking for articles published by the historical society of Borda for clues.
The 1906 article mentioned above ( 'Fragment du cartulaire de Cagnotte', *Bulletin de
la Société de Borda* 31 (1906) pp 49-58.) can be read online, but it doesn't throw light on the question of the various wives.
I would think that their names must be coming from alleged charts, but perhaps not all of them from Cagnotte, from which very few seem to be known.
Apparently some genealogists must have gotten hold of information, possibly based on Bavoillot's work, but not always documenting the exact source.
I am hoping that his article "Sépultures vicomtales d'Orthe en l'abbatiale Notre Dame de Corheta " published in Bulletin de la Société de Borda / Société de Borda. 102. (1977), pages 159-194 ties archeological findings to information from the 1653 investigation and/or quoted charts. The publication doesnt seem to available through WorldCat, but at least a couple of copies are available through various sellers. I am in the process of trying to secure one.
This article was reprinted in *Les Landes dans l'histoire: centenaire de
la Société de Borda 1876-1975*, Actes du XXVIIIe Congrès d'études
régionales tenu à Mont-de-Marsan et Dax les 24 et 25 avril 1976,
Fédération historique du Sud-Ouest (Bordeaux, 1978) pp 143-178.

The mystery of why other scholars would not have referenced the
previously-unknown sources quoted by Bavoillot for discoveries he
presented more than 40 years ago regarding wives of viscounts of Orthe
will not be resolved just by reading his article. If he kept manuscripts
in his own possession entirely to himself then perhaps he had
extraordinary reasons for such extraordinary conduct, or if he made
these available to other medievalists as he should have done then they
have been inexplicably neglectful of them over 4+ decades since.

Cagnotte abbey was the burial place of the family, and if he was quoting
from Adelaide's purported 1200 testament unusually naming her parents
from some other monastery's second cartulary he should have made that
clearer in citation than he did. "Guillaume d'Anjou" and "dame
Constance" demand further study that they have evidently not received,
quite apart from otherwise-unrecorded Lusignan and Montfort women.

I assume that the author is the same as Richard Bavoillot-Laussade, who
has published as recently as 2018, but he does not seems to have
returned to this subject in print since 1978.

Peter Stewart
J. Sardina
2021-04-10 17:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
I am afraid this research may take quite a long time. I will keep checking for articles published by the historical society of Borda for clues.
The 1906 article mentioned above ( 'Fragment du cartulaire de Cagnotte', *Bulletin de
la Société de Borda* 31 (1906) pp 49-58.) can be read online, but it doesn't throw light on the question of the various wives.
I would think that their names must be coming from alleged charts, but perhaps not all of them from Cagnotte, from which very few seem to be known.
Apparently some genealogists must have gotten hold of information, possibly based on Bavoillot's work, but not always documenting the exact source.
I am hoping that his article "Sépultures vicomtales d'Orthe en l'abbatiale Notre Dame de Corheta " published in Bulletin de la Société de Borda / Société de Borda. 102. (1977), pages 159-194 ties archeological findings to information from the 1653 investigation and/or quoted charts. The publication doesnt seem to available through WorldCat, but at least a couple of copies are available through various sellers. I am in the process of trying to secure one.
This article was reprinted in *Les Landes dans l'histoire: centenaire de
la Société de Borda 1876-1975*, Actes du XXVIIIe Congrès d'études
régionales tenu à Mont-de-Marsan et Dax les 24 et 25 avril 1976,
Fédération historique du Sud-Ouest (Bordeaux, 1978) pp 143-178.
The mystery of why other scholars would not have referenced the
previously-unknown sources quoted by Bavoillot for discoveries he
presented more than 40 years ago regarding wives of viscounts of Orthe
will not be resolved just by reading his article. If he kept manuscripts
in his own possession entirely to himself then perhaps he had
extraordinary reasons for such extraordinary conduct, or if he made
these available to other medievalists as he should have done then they
have been inexplicably neglectful of them over 4+ decades since.
Cagnotte abbey was the burial place of the family, and if he was quoting
from Adelaide's purported 1200 testament unusually naming her parents
from some other monastery's second cartulary he should have made that
clearer in citation than he did. "Guillaume d'Anjou" and "dame
Constance" demand further study that they have evidently not received,
quite apart from otherwise-unrecorded Lusignan and Montfort women.
I assume that the author is the same as Richard Bavoillot-Laussade, who
has published as recently as 2018, but he does not seems to have
returned to this subject in print since 1978.
Peter Stewart
Hello,

It seems impossible to accept this genealogy without seeing the possible evidence that may have been found on some charts, though they might exist only on transcriptions in manuscripts. And all of this trouble just trying to verify Adelaide's identity, assuming that is her name. Since Geneanet shows her with a supposed parents Guillaume and Constance, but refer back to publications, the latest being from a symposium at Dax, I would not be surprised if the source is Bavoillot again. I am not sure there are two Bavoillots, father and son, or if it is just one author writing over a long span.

Regarding Guillaume and Constance, they may refer to one Guillaume de Tournemine and Constance de Penthievre.
They seem to be a genealogical legend. These legends are mentioned in the following publication

Anatole de Barthélemy, Généalogies historiques. IV. Maison de Tournemine, dans Revue nobiliaire, héraldique et biographique, publiée par M. Bonneterre de St-Denis, 1872, Paris, pp. 1-10.

The reference is found in the wikipedia page about Guillaume d'Anjou.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_d%27Anjou, which says:

<<Toutefois, selon certaines généalogies françaises, Guillaume aurait épousé Constance de Penthièvre, une sœur du duc de Bretagne Conan IV. Surnommé Tournemine, il aurait fondé la Maison de Tournemine et serait le père d'Olivier Ier et Geoffroy de Tournemine. Toutefois, il n’existe aucune preuve de cette union, ni d’ailleurs de l’identité exacte de Guillaume Tournemine >>

Apparently, the author of the article listed in the symposium L'Aquitaine au temps du Prince Noir, at Dax in 2010 found some charts, possibly now lost, from Cagnotte, perhaps just in manuscript transcriptions, in which Aliénor d'Aquitaine "pour être agréable à sa chère Adélaïde", fait don à l'abbaye de ses rentes dans le comté de Bordeaux. Of course, this quote alone doesn't explain who Adelaide was, and why she was known to the queen, but this seems to be a rather important donation, if it can be proven that it was made.

Juan
Peter Stewart
2021-04-10 23:05:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
I am afraid this research may take quite a long time. I will keep checking for articles published by the historical society of Borda for clues.
The 1906 article mentioned above ( 'Fragment du cartulaire de Cagnotte', *Bulletin de
la Société de Borda* 31 (1906) pp 49-58.) can be read online, but it doesn't throw light on the question of the various wives.
I would think that their names must be coming from alleged charts, but perhaps not all of them from Cagnotte, from which very few seem to be known.
Apparently some genealogists must have gotten hold of information, possibly based on Bavoillot's work, but not always documenting the exact source.
I am hoping that his article "Sépultures vicomtales d'Orthe en l'abbatiale Notre Dame de Corheta " published in Bulletin de la Société de Borda / Société de Borda. 102. (1977), pages 159-194 ties archeological findings to information from the 1653 investigation and/or quoted charts. The publication doesnt seem to available through WorldCat, but at least a couple of copies are available through various sellers. I am in the process of trying to secure one.
This article was reprinted in *Les Landes dans l'histoire: centenaire de
la Société de Borda 1876-1975*, Actes du XXVIIIe Congrès d'études
régionales tenu à Mont-de-Marsan et Dax les 24 et 25 avril 1976,
Fédération historique du Sud-Ouest (Bordeaux, 1978) pp 143-178.
The mystery of why other scholars would not have referenced the
previously-unknown sources quoted by Bavoillot for discoveries he
presented more than 40 years ago regarding wives of viscounts of Orthe
will not be resolved just by reading his article. If he kept manuscripts
in his own possession entirely to himself then perhaps he had
extraordinary reasons for such extraordinary conduct, or if he made
these available to other medievalists as he should have done then they
have been inexplicably neglectful of them over 4+ decades since.
Cagnotte abbey was the burial place of the family, and if he was quoting
from Adelaide's purported 1200 testament unusually naming her parents
from some other monastery's second cartulary he should have made that
clearer in citation than he did. "Guillaume d'Anjou" and "dame
Constance" demand further study that they have evidently not received,
quite apart from otherwise-unrecorded Lusignan and Montfort women.
I assume that the author is the same as Richard Bavoillot-Laussade, who
has published as recently as 2018, but he does not seems to have
returned to this subject in print since 1978.
Peter Stewart
Hello,
It seems impossible to accept this genealogy without seeing the possible evidence that may have been found on some charts, though they might exist only on transcriptions in manuscripts. And all of this trouble just trying to verify Adelaide's identity, assuming that is her name. Since Geneanet shows her with a supposed parents Guillaume and Constance, but refer back to publications, the latest being from a symposium at Dax, I would not be surprised if the source is Bavoillot again. I am not sure there are two Bavoillots, father and son, or if it is just one author writing over a long span.
Regarding Guillaume and Constance, they may refer to one Guillaume de Tournemine and Constance de Penthievre.
They seem to be a genealogical legend. These legends are mentioned in the following publication
Anatole de Barthélemy, Généalogies historiques. IV. Maison de Tournemine, dans Revue nobiliaire, héraldique et biographique, publiée par M. Bonneterre de St-Denis, 1872, Paris, pp. 1-10.
The reference is found in the wikipedia page about Guillaume d'Anjou.
<<Toutefois, selon certaines généalogies françaises, Guillaume aurait épousé Constance de Penthièvre, une sœur du duc de Bretagne Conan IV. Surnommé Tournemine, il aurait fondé la Maison de Tournemine et serait le père d'Olivier Ier et Geoffroy de Tournemine. Toutefois, il n’existe aucune preuve de cette union, ni d’ailleurs de l’identité exacte de Guillaume Tournemine >>
Apparently, the author of the article listed in the symposium L'Aquitaine au temps du Prince Noir, at Dax in 2010 found some charts, possibly now lost, from Cagnotte, perhaps just in manuscript transcriptions, in which Aliénor d'Aquitaine "pour être agréable à sa chère Adélaïde", fait don à l'abbaye de ses rentes dans le comté de Bordeaux. Of course, this quote alone doesn't explain who Adelaide was, and why she was known to the queen, but this seems to be a rather important donation, if it can be proven that it was made.
According to Bavoillot, Adelaide herself named her parents as "Guillaume
d'Anjou" and "dame Constance" in her testament dated at Pentecost 1200,
which he cited as charter no. 65 of a second cartulary - this suggests a
considerable cache of documents, not just a few transcriptions.

It is more than troubling - quite bizarre indeed - that the compilers of
"Répertoire des cartulaires médiévaux et modernes" (here
http://www.cn-telma.fr/cartulR/index/) evidently know nothing of
Cagnotte charters discovered in the late-20th century. The study of
diplomatics in France is more intense than just about anywhere else, and
scholars don't simply fail to register new finds over 40+ years.

There were plenty of forgers busily at work in the 17th century (perhaps
most notoriously for the Bouillon claims to Auvergne), and the sentiment
behind "pour être agréable à sa chère Adélaïde" seems more early-modern
than medieval to me.

Anyway, if Bavoillot did not make his material available to specialists
then his exclusive use of such sources and conclusions drawn from them
must be treated with caution. If he did share his finds, then the
relative silence of other scholars since 1977 is an embarrassment to
them and their field of study.

Peter Stewart



It troubles me that the editors
J. Sardina
2021-04-10 17:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
I am afraid this research may take quite a long time. I will keep checking for articles published by the historical society of Borda for clues.
The 1906 article mentioned above ( 'Fragment du cartulaire de Cagnotte', *Bulletin de
la Société de Borda* 31 (1906) pp 49-58.) can be read online, but it doesn't throw light on the question of the various wives.
I would think that their names must be coming from alleged charts, but perhaps not all of them from Cagnotte, from which very few seem to be known.
Apparently some genealogists must have gotten hold of information, possibly based on Bavoillot's work, but not always documenting the exact source.
I am hoping that his article "Sépultures vicomtales d'Orthe en l'abbatiale Notre Dame de Corheta " published in Bulletin de la Société de Borda / Société de Borda. 102. (1977), pages 159-194 ties archeological findings to information from the 1653 investigation and/or quoted charts. The publication doesnt seem to available through WorldCat, but at least a couple of copies are available through various sellers. I am in the process of trying to secure one.
This article was reprinted in *Les Landes dans l'histoire: centenaire de
la Société de Borda 1876-1975*, Actes du XXVIIIe Congrès d'études
régionales tenu à Mont-de-Marsan et Dax les 24 et 25 avril 1976,
Fédération historique du Sud-Ouest (Bordeaux, 1978) pp 143-178.
The mystery of why other scholars would not have referenced the
previously-unknown sources quoted by Bavoillot for discoveries he
presented more than 40 years ago regarding wives of viscounts of Orthe
will not be resolved just by reading his article. If he kept manuscripts
in his own possession entirely to himself then perhaps he had
extraordinary reasons for such extraordinary conduct, or if he made
these available to other medievalists as he should have done then they
have been inexplicably neglectful of them over 4+ decades since.
Cagnotte abbey was the burial place of the family, and if he was quoting
from Adelaide's purported 1200 testament unusually naming her parents
from some other monastery's second cartulary he should have made that
clearer in citation than he did. "Guillaume d'Anjou" and "dame
Constance" demand further study that they have evidently not received,
quite apart from otherwise-unrecorded Lusignan and Montfort women.
I assume that the author is the same as Richard Bavoillot-Laussade, who
has published as recently as 2018, but he does not seems to have
returned to this subject in print since 1978.
Peter Stewart
Hello,

And coming back to the Montforts, finding the identity of the "Amicie" wife of another of the vicomtes, seems to be an even more difficult task than finding Adelaide's, but while on that topic, there seems to be some mention of two Montfort daughters from Outremer marrying two unnamed French knights, and if I remember correctly that came from an edition of Lignages d'Outremer.

I was checking today where that came from, and apparently there is quote from a 19th century publication about one of them. The note comes from the current version of a wikipedia article about Phillip de Montfort, the lord of Tyre, who died in 1270.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_of_Montfort,_Lord_of_Tyre.

We know how unreliable Wikipedia can be, but i am trying to trace the source.

Note 8 is about Philippa, who is said to have married Guillaume d'Esneval, a Norman knight,

Hoefer, Nouvelle biographe universelle depuis les temps les plus recules... Volume 36. 1861. p. 262

I have been looking at that series at Gallica, but can't find it.

Juan
Peter Stewart
2021-04-10 23:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
I am afraid this research may take quite a long time. I will keep checking for articles published by the historical society of Borda for clues.
The 1906 article mentioned above ( 'Fragment du cartulaire de Cagnotte', *Bulletin de
la Société de Borda* 31 (1906) pp 49-58.) can be read online, but it doesn't throw light on the question of the various wives.
I would think that their names must be coming from alleged charts, but perhaps not all of them from Cagnotte, from which very few seem to be known.
Apparently some genealogists must have gotten hold of information, possibly based on Bavoillot's work, but not always documenting the exact source.
I am hoping that his article "Sépultures vicomtales d'Orthe en l'abbatiale Notre Dame de Corheta " published in Bulletin de la Société de Borda / Société de Borda. 102. (1977), pages 159-194 ties archeological findings to information from the 1653 investigation and/or quoted charts. The publication doesnt seem to available through WorldCat, but at least a couple of copies are available through various sellers. I am in the process of trying to secure one.
This article was reprinted in *Les Landes dans l'histoire: centenaire de
la Société de Borda 1876-1975*, Actes du XXVIIIe Congrès d'études
régionales tenu à Mont-de-Marsan et Dax les 24 et 25 avril 1976,
Fédération historique du Sud-Ouest (Bordeaux, 1978) pp 143-178.
The mystery of why other scholars would not have referenced the
previously-unknown sources quoted by Bavoillot for discoveries he
presented more than 40 years ago regarding wives of viscounts of Orthe
will not be resolved just by reading his article. If he kept manuscripts
in his own possession entirely to himself then perhaps he had
extraordinary reasons for such extraordinary conduct, or if he made
these available to other medievalists as he should have done then they
have been inexplicably neglectful of them over 4+ decades since.
Cagnotte abbey was the burial place of the family, and if he was quoting
from Adelaide's purported 1200 testament unusually naming her parents
from some other monastery's second cartulary he should have made that
clearer in citation than he did. "Guillaume d'Anjou" and "dame
Constance" demand further study that they have evidently not received,
quite apart from otherwise-unrecorded Lusignan and Montfort women.
I assume that the author is the same as Richard Bavoillot-Laussade, who
has published as recently as 2018, but he does not seems to have
returned to this subject in print since 1978.
Peter Stewart
Hello,
And coming back to the Montforts, finding the identity of the "Amicie" wife of another of the vicomtes, seems to be an even more difficult task than finding Adelaide's, but while on that topic, there seems to be some mention of two Montfort daughters from Outremer marrying two unnamed French knights, and if I remember correctly that came from an edition of Lignages d'Outremer.
I was checking today where that came from, and apparently there is quote from a 19th century publication about one of them. The note comes from the current version of a wikipedia article about Phillip de Montfort, the lord of Tyre, who died in 1270.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_of_Montfort,_Lord_of_Tyre.
We know how unreliable Wikipedia can be, but i am trying to trace the source.
Note 8 is about Philippa, who is said to have married Guillaume d'Esneval, a Norman knight,
Hoefer, Nouvelle biographe universelle depuis les temps les plus recules... Volume 36. 1861. p. 262
I have been looking at that series at Gallica, but can't find it.
Apart from Philippa who married Guillaume d'Esneval, Philippe I de
Montfort reportedly had two other daughters, named Alix and Helvis, both
living in 1282. I don't know of any contemporary source showing that
these two were married.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2021-04-10 23:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
I am afraid this research may take quite a long time. I will keep checking for articles published by the historical society of Borda for clues.
The 1906 article mentioned above ( 'Fragment du cartulaire de Cagnotte', *Bulletin de
la Société de Borda* 31 (1906) pp 49-58.) can be read online, but it doesn't throw light on the question of the various wives.
I would think that their names must be coming from alleged charts, but perhaps not all of them from Cagnotte, from which very few seem to be known.
Apparently some genealogists must have gotten hold of information, possibly based on Bavoillot's work, but not always documenting the exact source.
I am hoping that his article "Sépultures vicomtales d'Orthe en l'abbatiale Notre Dame de Corheta " published in Bulletin de la Société de Borda / Société de Borda. 102. (1977), pages 159-194 ties archeological findings to information from the 1653 investigation and/or quoted charts. The publication doesnt seem to available through WorldCat, but at least a couple of copies are available through various sellers. I am in the process of trying to secure one.
This article was reprinted in *Les Landes dans l'histoire: centenaire de
la Société de Borda 1876-1975*, Actes du XXVIIIe Congrès d'études
régionales tenu à Mont-de-Marsan et Dax les 24 et 25 avril 1976,
Fédération historique du Sud-Ouest (Bordeaux, 1978) pp 143-178.
The mystery of why other scholars would not have referenced the
previously-unknown sources quoted by Bavoillot for discoveries he
presented more than 40 years ago regarding wives of viscounts of Orthe
will not be resolved just by reading his article. If he kept manuscripts
in his own possession entirely to himself then perhaps he had
extraordinary reasons for such extraordinary conduct, or if he made
these available to other medievalists as he should have done then they
have been inexplicably neglectful of them over 4+ decades since.
Cagnotte abbey was the burial place of the family, and if he was quoting
from Adelaide's purported 1200 testament unusually naming her parents
from some other monastery's second cartulary he should have made that
clearer in citation than he did. "Guillaume d'Anjou" and "dame
Constance" demand further study that they have evidently not received,
quite apart from otherwise-unrecorded Lusignan and Montfort women.
I assume that the author is the same as Richard Bavoillot-Laussade, who
has published as recently as 2018, but he does not seems to have
returned to this subject in print since 1978.
Peter Stewart
Hello,
And coming back to the Montforts, finding the identity of the "Amicie" wife of another of the vicomtes, seems to be an even more difficult task than finding Adelaide's, but while on that topic, there seems to be some mention of two Montfort daughters from Outremer marrying two unnamed French knights, and if I remember correctly that came from an edition of Lignages d'Outremer.
Lignage d'Outremer is not the source for two daughters marrying unnamed
French knights- it says (Nielen edition, p. 107): "Phelippe espousa la
fille au conte d'Ausseure, et orent .II. fis et .II. filles ... L'une
fille [du] dessusdit Phelippe euspousa (sic) le seignor d'Aneval, et
orent Robert, le seignor d'Aneval". The second daughter is not specified
at all.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2021-04-11 00:46:33 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Peter Stewart
And coming back to the Montforts,  finding the identity of the
"Amicie"  wife of another of the vicomtes, seems to be an even more
difficult task than finding Adelaide's, but while on that topic, there
seems to be some mention of two Montfort daughters from Outremer
marrying two unnamed French knights, and if I remember correctly that
came from an edition of Lignages d'Outremer.
Lignage d'Outremer is not the source for two daughters marrying unnamed
French knights- it says (Nielen edition, p. 107): "Phelippe espousa la
fille au conte d'Ausseure, et orent .II. fis et .II. filles ... L'une
fille [du] dessusdit Phelippe euspousa (sic) le seignor d'Aneval, et
orent Robert, le seignor d'Aneval". The second daughter is not specified
at all.
It appears that Philippe I de Montfort had four daughters apart from
Philippa - in a charter dated 1 April 1268 he named Alienor and Jeanne
as daughters from his first marriage, and in December 1268 Louis IX
named Alix ("Alrchia") and Helvis ("Heloidis") who were presumably
daughters from Philippe's second marriage.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2021-04-11 06:07:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
<snip>
Post by Peter Stewart
Philippe senior, Jeanne's paternal grandfather, was seigneur of Toron by
right of his second wife, Marie of Antioch. In 1246 he was given charge
of Tyre (called Sur from its name in Arabic) and was known as its
seigneur from that time although not officially given this title until
1269, the year before he was murdered. His elder son by Marie, Jean de
Montfort (died childless on 27 November 1283), was confirmed as heir to
Tyre on condition that he should marry his second cousin twice removed,
Marguerite of Antioch, who survived him as lady of Tyre in her own right
until dying as a nun in January 1308.
Ah, still muddle-headed after all - make that "on condition that he
should marry his second cousin once removed ...": Marguerite was the
agnatic second cousin of Jean's mother Marie.
Peter Stewart
Hello,
I was replying to the message a few minutes ago, but this new version of Google provides some rather annoying features, one of which makes the page disappear in the middle of typing.
I am wondering if there is documentation regarding all the known daughters of that line. I have been trying to prove or disprove that the wife of a vicomte d'Orthe was one Amicia de Montfort, said to be a daughter of Philippe (not sure if the first or the second one).
LANDES EN VRAC
SOUVENIRS ET TÉMOIGNAGES DU PASSÉ ET PETIT PATRIMOINE LANDAIS.
http://landesenvrac.blogspot.com/2010/01/dorthe-corheta.html
On taking another look at this I think it can be considered implausible
enough to disregard about "Amicia de Montfort" - it says:

"De 1254 à 1295 - Raymond Loup III (vers 1231-1295) fils aîné de Loup
Raymond
Epousa Marie de Lusignan fille du comte de la Marche, sans postérité

De 1295 à 1300 - Arnaud Loup, (1235-1300) fils cadet de Loup Raymond.
Epousa Amicia, fille de Philippe 1er de Montfort-l'Amaury. Mort et
inhumé à Cagnotte en 1300
Son fils aîné Loup Arnaud né en 1261 ..."

This requires believing that Philippe I de Montfort of Tyre, a man of
high status in France and Palestine whose wives were daughters
respectively of a Latin emperor of Constantinople and of a prince of
Antioch, would have married one of his daughters to the younger son of a
viscount of Orthe, who only succeeded his elder brother in that
comparatively insignificant title at the age of 60 more than three
decades after his purported marriage to Amicia. I wouldn't buy that
without compelling evidence from unimpeachable sources.

Peter Stewart
J. Sardina
2021-04-11 13:03:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
<snip>
Post by Peter Stewart
Philippe senior, Jeanne's paternal grandfather, was seigneur of Toron by
right of his second wife, Marie of Antioch. In 1246 he was given charge
of Tyre (called Sur from its name in Arabic) and was known as its
seigneur from that time although not officially given this title until
1269, the year before he was murdered. His elder son by Marie, Jean de
Montfort (died childless on 27 November 1283), was confirmed as heir to
Tyre on condition that he should marry his second cousin twice removed,
Marguerite of Antioch, who survived him as lady of Tyre in her own right
until dying as a nun in January 1308.
Ah, still muddle-headed after all - make that "on condition that he
should marry his second cousin once removed ...": Marguerite was the
agnatic second cousin of Jean's mother Marie.
Peter Stewart
Hello,
I was replying to the message a few minutes ago, but this new version of Google provides some rather annoying features, one of which makes the page disappear in the middle of typing.
I am wondering if there is documentation regarding all the known daughters of that line. I have been trying to prove or disprove that the wife of a vicomte d'Orthe was one Amicia de Montfort, said to be a daughter of Philippe (not sure if the first or the second one).
LANDES EN VRAC
SOUVENIRS ET TÉMOIGNAGES DU PASSÉ ET PETIT PATRIMOINE LANDAIS.
http://landesenvrac.blogspot.com/2010/01/dorthe-corheta.html
On taking another look at this I think it can be considered implausible
"De 1254 à 1295 - Raymond Loup III (vers 1231-1295) fils aîné de Loup
Raymond
Epousa Marie de Lusignan fille du comte de la Marche, sans postérité
De 1295 à 1300 - Arnaud Loup, (1235-1300) fils cadet de Loup Raymond.
Epousa Amicia, fille de Philippe 1er de Montfort-l'Amaury. Mort et
inhumé à Cagnotte en 1300
Son fils aîné Loup Arnaud né en 1261 ..."
This requires believing that Philippe I de Montfort of Tyre, a man of
high status in France and Palestine whose wives were daughters
respectively of a Latin emperor of Constantinople and of a prince of
Antioch, would have married one of his daughters to the younger son of a
viscount of Orthe, who only succeeded his elder brother in that
comparatively insignificant title at the age of 60 more than three
decades after his purported marriage to Amicia. I wouldn't buy that
without compelling evidence from unimpeachable sources.
Peter Stewart
Great. I think it is almost certainly a claim that can be disregarded unless very good evidence is found otherwise, as you said.
Of course, it may be that if there is any mention of family origin in a chart, or a transcription of it, it might not have been Montfort, but a similar name, or that her name was not Amicia after all.

The marriage does not make sense.

Also the genealogy given for the viscounts doesn't seem to very solid. There seem to be at least two versions of it for that period. Apparently a nephew or grand nephew was succeeded by an uncle or grand-uncle, who apparently survived very few years, to be succeeded by his own son who also didn't last long.

It is. not clear what Arnaud Loup would have been doing up to the time he inherited Orthe. One wouldn't think he had that expectation when his married. I have not seen evidence that he would have been in a crusade either.

Thanks,
J. Sardina
Peter Stewart
2021-04-12 00:00:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
<snip>
Post by Peter Stewart
Philippe senior, Jeanne's paternal grandfather, was seigneur of Toron by
right of his second wife, Marie of Antioch. In 1246 he was given charge
of Tyre (called Sur from its name in Arabic) and was known as its
seigneur from that time although not officially given this title until
1269, the year before he was murdered. His elder son by Marie, Jean de
Montfort (died childless on 27 November 1283), was confirmed as heir to
Tyre on condition that he should marry his second cousin twice removed,
Marguerite of Antioch, who survived him as lady of Tyre in her own right
until dying as a nun in January 1308.
Ah, still muddle-headed after all - make that "on condition that he
should marry his second cousin once removed ...": Marguerite was the
agnatic second cousin of Jean's mother Marie.
Peter Stewart
Hello,
I was replying to the message a few minutes ago, but this new version of Google provides some rather annoying features, one of which makes the page disappear in the middle of typing.
I am wondering if there is documentation regarding all the known daughters of that line. I have been trying to prove or disprove that the wife of a vicomte d'Orthe was one Amicia de Montfort, said to be a daughter of Philippe (not sure if the first or the second one).
LANDES EN VRAC
SOUVENIRS ET TÉMOIGNAGES DU PASSÉ ET PETIT PATRIMOINE LANDAIS.
http://landesenvrac.blogspot.com/2010/01/dorthe-corheta.html
On taking another look at this I think it can be considered implausible
"De 1254 à 1295 - Raymond Loup III (vers 1231-1295) fils aîné de Loup
Raymond
Epousa Marie de Lusignan fille du comte de la Marche, sans postérité
De 1295 à 1300 - Arnaud Loup, (1235-1300) fils cadet de Loup Raymond.
Epousa Amicia, fille de Philippe 1er de Montfort-l'Amaury. Mort et
inhumé à Cagnotte en 1300
Son fils aîné Loup Arnaud né en 1261 ..."
This requires believing that Philippe I de Montfort of Tyre, a man of
high status in France and Palestine whose wives were daughters
respectively of a Latin emperor of Constantinople and of a prince of
Antioch, would have married one of his daughters to the younger son of a
viscount of Orthe, who only succeeded his elder brother in that
comparatively insignificant title at the age of 60 more than three
decades after his purported marriage to Amicia. I wouldn't buy that
without compelling evidence from unimpeachable sources.
Peter Stewart
Great. I think it is almost certainly a claim that can be disregarded unless very good evidence is found otherwise, as you said.
Of course, it may be that if there is any mention of family origin in a chart, or a transcription of it, it might not have been Montfort, but a similar name, or that her name was not Amicia after all.
The marriage does not make sense.
Another of the claimed marriages does not make adequate sense to me -
the web page says:

"Raymond Loup III (vers 1231-1295) fils aîné de Loup Raymond
Epousa Marie de Lusignan fille du comte de la Marche, sans postérité".

This alleged Lusignan wife named Marie cannot have been daughter of
Hugues XI and his wife Yolande, countess of Penthièvre, as their
daughter Marie married Robert de Ferrers, earl of Derby.

She cannot have belonged to the next generation, as daughter of Hugues
XII and his wife Jeanne, dame of Fougères, as their daughter Marie
married Étienne II of Sancerre.

This by default leaves as her potential parents only Hugues X, count of
La Marche, and his wife Isabelle, countess of Angoulême, the widow of
King John. They had no recorded daughter named Marie, though if there
had been one it would be strange for a contemporary source not to
specify such an imposing connection of a viscount of Orthe. Also, since
Isabelle was born ca 1188 she would have been probably in her mid-40s
when giving birth to a daughter who married a man born ca 1231, while
the husbands of Isabelle's recorded daughters were all of considerably
higher status than a viscount of Orthe.

I suspect that this genealogy may trace directly or indirectly to some
forgery of the 17th or 18th century intended to aggrandise the Aspremont
family then using the title viscount of Orthe. One of them was
responsible for a massacre of Huguenots, acting against orders from the
king, and he was succeeded by a legitimated bastard son whose last
agnatic descendant died in 1772.

Peter Stewart
J. Sardina
2021-04-12 00:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
<snip>
Post by Peter Stewart
Philippe senior, Jeanne's paternal grandfather, was seigneur of Toron by
right of his second wife, Marie of Antioch. In 1246 he was given charge
of Tyre (called Sur from its name in Arabic) and was known as its
seigneur from that time although not officially given this title until
1269, the year before he was murdered. His elder son by Marie, Jean de
Montfort (died childless on 27 November 1283), was confirmed as heir to
Tyre on condition that he should marry his second cousin twice removed,
Marguerite of Antioch, who survived him as lady of Tyre in her own right
until dying as a nun in January 1308.
Ah, still muddle-headed after all - make that "on condition that he
should marry his second cousin once removed ...": Marguerite was the
agnatic second cousin of Jean's mother Marie.
Peter Stewart
Hello,
I was replying to the message a few minutes ago, but this new version of Google provides some rather annoying features, one of which makes the page disappear in the middle of typing.
I am wondering if there is documentation regarding all the known daughters of that line. I have been trying to prove or disprove that the wife of a vicomte d'Orthe was one Amicia de Montfort, said to be a daughter of Philippe (not sure if the first or the second one).
LANDES EN VRAC
SOUVENIRS ET TÉMOIGNAGES DU PASSÉ ET PETIT PATRIMOINE LANDAIS.
http://landesenvrac.blogspot.com/2010/01/dorthe-corheta.html
On taking another look at this I think it can be considered implausible
"De 1254 à 1295 - Raymond Loup III (vers 1231-1295) fils aîné de Loup
Raymond
Epousa Marie de Lusignan fille du comte de la Marche, sans postérité
De 1295 à 1300 - Arnaud Loup, (1235-1300) fils cadet de Loup Raymond.
Epousa Amicia, fille de Philippe 1er de Montfort-l'Amaury. Mort et
inhumé à Cagnotte en 1300
Son fils aîné Loup Arnaud né en 1261 ..."
This requires believing that Philippe I de Montfort of Tyre, a man of
high status in France and Palestine whose wives were daughters
respectively of a Latin emperor of Constantinople and of a prince of
Antioch, would have married one of his daughters to the younger son of a
viscount of Orthe, who only succeeded his elder brother in that
comparatively insignificant title at the age of 60 more than three
decades after his purported marriage to Amicia. I wouldn't buy that
without compelling evidence from unimpeachable sources.
Peter Stewart
Great. I think it is almost certainly a claim that can be disregarded unless very good evidence is found otherwise, as you said.
Of course, it may be that if there is any mention of family origin in a chart, or a transcription of it, it might not have been Montfort, but a similar name, or that her name was not Amicia after all.
The marriage does not make sense.
Another of the claimed marriages does not make adequate sense to me -
"Raymond Loup III (vers 1231-1295) fils aîné de Loup Raymond
Epousa Marie de Lusignan fille du comte de la Marche, sans postérité".
This alleged Lusignan wife named Marie cannot have been daughter of
Hugues XI and his wife Yolande, countess of Penthièvre, as their
daughter Marie married Robert de Ferrers, earl of Derby.
She cannot have belonged to the next generation, as daughter of Hugues
XII and his wife Jeanne, dame of Fougères, as their daughter Marie
married Étienne II of Sancerre.
This by default leaves as her potential parents only Hugues X, count of
La Marche, and his wife Isabelle, countess of Angoulême, the widow of
King John. They had no recorded daughter named Marie, though if there
had been one it would be strange for a contemporary source not to
specify such an imposing connection of a viscount of Orthe. Also, since
Isabelle was born ca 1188 she would have been probably in her mid-40s
when giving birth to a daughter who married a man born ca 1231, while
the husbands of Isabelle's recorded daughters were all of considerably
higher status than a viscount of Orthe.
I suspect that this genealogy may trace directly or indirectly to some
forgery of the 17th or 18th century intended to aggrandise the Aspremont
family then using the title viscount of Orthe. One of them was
responsible for a massacre of Huguenots, acting against orders from the
king, and he was succeeded by a legitimated bastard son whose last
agnatic descendant died in 1772.
Peter Stewart
Hello,

There seems to be such a late work about the Aspremont family:

Le « Livre des gloires et illustremens de la très magnificime dynastie d’Aspremont » mentionne à Montgaillard un « anticque palais romain » qui aurait précédé la forteresse Aspremont à Peyrechorade. Castrum fortifié disparut après le XIIIème siècle.

That quote comes from another blog, http://users.skynet.be/am035431/pages/5%20Les%20Premiers%20Seigneurs%20dApremont/Apremont.html. which, incidentally, repeats part of the claims on the wives of the viscounts of the 13th century. It brings a somewhat different genealogy, but it doesn't give the source for it, and there seems to be a gap in it.Not that it would matter since it is likely to be very unreliable.

There seems to have been a lengthy process in the 17th century and I wouldn't be surprised if certain transcriptions or translations of old charts were brought up, along with possibly forged documents. I am trying to see if the bulletin of Borda published the manuscript version of this process. Perhaps that is the source of the supposed charts of Cagnotte.

Juan
Peter Stewart
2021-04-12 03:26:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by J. Sardina
Post by Peter Stewart
On Saturday, March 27, 2021 at 4:27:23 AM UTC-4,
Post by Peter Stewart
<snip>
Post by Peter Stewart
Philippe senior, Jeanne's paternal grandfather, was seigneur of Toron by
right of his second wife, Marie of Antioch. In 1246 he was given charge
of Tyre (called Sur from its name in Arabic) and was known as its
seigneur from that time although not officially given this title until
1269, the year before he was murdered. His elder son by Marie, Jean de
Montfort (died childless on 27 November 1283), was confirmed as heir to
Tyre on condition that he should marry his second cousin twice removed,
Marguerite of Antioch, who survived him as lady of Tyre in her own right
until dying as a nun in January 1308.
Ah, still muddle-headed after all - make that "on condition that he
should marry his second cousin once removed ...": Marguerite was the
agnatic second cousin of Jean's mother Marie.
Peter Stewart
Hello,
I was replying to the message a few minutes ago, but this new
version of Google provides some rather annoying features, one of
which makes the page disappear in the middle of typing.
I am wondering if there is documentation regarding all the known
daughters of that line. I have been trying to prove or disprove that
the wife of a vicomte d'Orthe was one Amicia de Montfort, said to be
a daughter of Philippe (not sure if the first or the second one).
LANDES EN VRAC
SOUVENIRS ET TÉMOIGNAGES DU PASSÉ ET PETIT PATRIMOINE LANDAIS.
http://landesenvrac.blogspot.com/2010/01/dorthe-corheta.html
On taking another look at this I think it can be considered implausible
"De 1254 à 1295 - Raymond Loup III (vers 1231-1295) fils aîné de Loup
Raymond
Epousa Marie de Lusignan fille du comte de la Marche, sans postérité
De 1295 à 1300 - Arnaud Loup, (1235-1300) fils cadet de Loup Raymond.
Epousa Amicia, fille de Philippe 1er de Montfort-l'Amaury. Mort et
inhumé à Cagnotte en 1300
Son fils aîné Loup Arnaud né en 1261 ..."
This requires believing that Philippe I de Montfort of Tyre, a man of
high status in France and Palestine whose wives were daughters
respectively of a Latin emperor of Constantinople and of a prince of
Antioch, would have married one of his daughters to the younger son of a
viscount of Orthe, who only succeeded his elder brother in that
comparatively insignificant title at the age of 60 more than three
decades after his purported marriage to Amicia. I wouldn't buy that
without compelling evidence from unimpeachable sources.
Peter Stewart
Great. I think it is almost certainly a claim that can be disregarded
unless very good evidence is found otherwise, as you said.
Of course, it may be that if there is any mention of family origin in
a chart, or a transcription of it, it might not have been Montfort,
but a similar name, or that her name was not Amicia after all.
The marriage does not make sense.
Another of the claimed marriages does not make adequate sense to me -
"Raymond Loup III (vers 1231-1295) fils aîné de Loup Raymond
Epousa Marie de Lusignan fille du comte de la Marche, sans postérité".
This alleged Lusignan wife named Marie cannot have been daughter of
Hugues XI and his wife Yolande, countess of Penthièvre, as their
daughter Marie married Robert de Ferrers, earl of Derby.
She cannot have belonged to the next generation, as daughter of Hugues
XII and his wife Jeanne, dame of Fougères, as their daughter Marie
married Étienne II of Sancerre.
This by default leaves as her potential parents only Hugues X, count of
La Marche, and his wife Isabelle, countess of Angoulême, the widow of
King John. They had no recorded daughter named Marie, though if there
had been one it would be strange for a contemporary source not to
specify such an imposing connection of a viscount of Orthe. Also, since
Isabelle was born ca 1188 she would have been probably in her mid-40s
when giving birth to a daughter who married a man born ca 1231, while
the husbands of Isabelle's recorded daughters were all of considerably
higher status than a viscount of Orthe.
I suspect that this genealogy may trace directly or indirectly to some
forgery of the 17th or 18th century intended to aggrandise the Aspremont
family then using the title viscount of Orthe. One of them was
responsible for a massacre of Huguenots, acting against orders from the
king, and he was succeeded by a legitimated bastard son whose last
agnatic descendant died in 1772.
A third marriage stated on the web page appears to be fictitious - it
claims:

"Loup Raymond (vers 1197-1244) ... épousa Almodis de Cognac,
petite-fille du roi Richard Cœur de Lion, puisque fille de Philippe de
Falcombridge, son fils bâtard, marié à l'héritière Amélie de la maison
de Cognac."

However, the wife of Richard I's bastard son Philip died childless
according to the registers of Louis IX's brother Alphonse of Poitou, and
after her death Richard gave Cognac to his seneschal ("dedit rex
Richardus comes Pictavensis dominam Amellyam unicam heredem Coygnyaci
... in uxorem cuidam filio suo notho, scilicet Philippo de Coygnyaco;
qua defuncta sine liberis, tenuit dictus comes Richardus dictum castrum
et eum tradidit Roberto de Torniant, senescallo suo Pictavensi").

Philip outlived his wife Amelia, but any daughter of his cannot have
been also a daughter of the heiress of Cognac. I don't know of any
contemporary source giving him a second wife, or an illegitimate daughter.

Peter Stewart

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