Post by J. Sardina Post by Peter Stewart Post by J. Sardina Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Philippe senior, Jeanne's paternal grandfather, was seigneur of Toron by
right of his second wife, Marie of Antioch. In 1246 he was given charge
of Tyre (called Sur from its name in Arabic) and was known as its
seigneur from that time although not officially given this title until
1269, the year before he was murdered. His elder son by Marie, Jean de
Montfort (died childless on 27 November 1283), was confirmed as heir to
Tyre on condition that he should marry his second cousin twice removed,
Marguerite of Antioch, who survived him as lady of Tyre in her own right
until dying as a nun in January 1308.
Ah, still muddle-headed after all - make that "on condition that he
should marry his second cousin once removed ...": Marguerite was the
agnatic second cousin of Jean's mother Marie.
I was replying to the message a few minutes ago, but this new version of Google provides some rather annoying features, one of which makes the page disappear in the middle of typing.
I am wondering if there is documentation regarding all the known daughters of that line. I have been trying to prove or disprove that the wife of a vicomte d'Orthe was one Amicia de Montfort, said to be a daughter of Philippe (not sure if the first or the second one).
LANDES EN VRAC
SOUVENIRS ET TÉMOIGNAGES DU PASSÉ ET PETIT PATRIMOINE LANDAIS.
The same genealogy gives other wives as Adelaide d'Anjou, Aumus de Cognac, Marie de Lusignan, and Guiscarde d'Arraux.
As with so many websites, this one would be better ignored or at least
treated with great caution - the wives given for viscounts of Orthe
appear to be a mix of fact and fiction.
I don't have time to look into this further at the moment, but off the
top of my head the two wives given for Loup Garcie II (1146-1212) are
both highly suspect: "Melissende de Moncade" and then ca 1175 "Adélaïde,
fille du comte Guillaume de Penthievre comte d’Anjou, cousine germaine
de Richard comte de Poitiers, et nièce du roi Henri II Plantagenêt". In
an undated charter for Cagnotte written ca 1180 Loup Garcie II named his
wife as Dalas. Henry II's brother Guillaume was not count of Penthievre
or of Anjou, and he died unmarried not long after Thomas Becket had
forbidden a projected union with Isabel de Warenne (who subsequently
married his illegitimate half-brother Hamelin) on the grounds of
consanguinity through his mother Matilda.
Loup Garcie II's grandson Loup Raymond is said to have married a
granddaughter of Richard I (misnumbered II), "Almodis de Cognac", who
would have been his second cousin according to the scheme presented, as
well as being the granddaughter of his father's godfather - two
impediments that would each have required dispensation.
I don't recall ever having come across the "Marie de Lusignan" or
"Amicia, fille de Philippe 1er de Montfort-l'Amaury" named there.
Yes. It is a very strange mixture. Part of the information seems to come from the cartulary of Note Dame de Corheta, but apparently some of the information on the tombs of the viscounts, with names and dates is from a manuscript of 1653.
I am trying find out if an article published in 1977 about archeological work at the abbey brings any information.
ISBD : Sépultures vicomtales d’Orthe en l’abbatiale Notre-Dame de Corheta/ Richard Bavoillot. - Dax : Société de Borda, 1977. - p. 159-194. (Bulletin de la Société de Borda ; 2. - ISSN 0337-0267).
The manuscript of 1653 is evidently unpublished in full and belongs to
Richard Bavoillot. I assume this is his source for making the wife of
Loup Garsie II into a niece of Henry II named Adelaide, but I have not
seen his 1977 article so this is just a guess - I can't find any other
authority for such an implausible connection.
The only extract I have seen from Bavoillot's document is in vol. 6 of
*Corpus des inscriptions de la France médiévale* (1981) p. 88, an
epitaph supposedly placed on his tomb by "Loup-Garsie, comte d'Orthe,
seigneur de toute la province" and the abbot of Cagnotte in December
1189 for the (vis)count's paternal grandfather who had died in 1146. It
is a brazen puff for the deceased, maybe fitting a pattern for the
entire family: "Seule gît ici la dépouille du glorieux seigneur
Raimond-Sanche d'Orthe, qui trépassa le 2 des ides de décembre, en l'an
1146, après l'incarnation de Notre-Seigneur. Par ses multiples qualités,
il fut grand dans la vie terrestre, il soulagea les faibles, réaffermit
ceux qui étaient sans courage, abaissa les fourbes et les iniques, fut
un pilier du Temple de l'Eternel, protecteur et aimé de l'Eglise
universelle. Son âme est en la Jérusalem céleste. Ainsi soit-il un
exemple." Modest, not.
The only extant source for Loup Garsie's charter naming his wife as
Dalas is a 17th-century transcription here (no. 4):
This follows a charter dated 1180 in which Loup Garsie mentions his
mother but not a wife. 'Dalas' perhaps may be a scribal oddity for the
name Adelais, but any link to the Angevin family must be drawn from
somewhere else. As I wrote before, Henry II's brother Guillaume had no
legitimate offspring and as far as I'm aware no illegitimate daughter.
Their half-brother Hamelin had several daughters, but all of them were
married to Anglo-Norman husbands. Loup Garsie joined a rebellion against
Richard I and supposedly in submitting after defeat asked him to become
god-father to his second son - this episode does not strike me as wholly
consistent with either prior or subsequent marriage to a first cousin of
The series of wives from the Angevin, Montfort and Lusignan families are
all highly questionable, since such minor feudatories as the viscounts
of Orthe are hardly likely to have scored celebrated in-laws repeatedly,