Discussion:
Audrey Barlow descent from King John
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Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-03-17 01:12:47 UTC
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Audrey Barlow's closest royal descent is from Henry II. I think it's possible to upgrade it to one from King John. She was descended from Elizabeth de Lisle, daughter of Gerard de Lisle. However, it's uncertain whether she was the daughter of his first wife Eleanor FitzAlan or of his second wife Elizabeth LeStrange. However, both of those were descended from daughters of King Llewellyn of Gwynedd. Eleanor was descended from Gwladys. Elizabeth was descended from Margred. Their motherhood is uncertain but it's possible that they were daughters of Joan of Wales, daughter of King John, especially in the case of Gwladys, who inherited lands from Joan. What are your thoughts on this?
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-03-18 00:24:16 UTC
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PJ Evans has previously mentioned that he is descended from Audrey Barlow. What are his thoughts on this?
c***@gmail.com
2020-03-18 03:40:26 UTC
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On Monday, March 16, 2020 at 7:12:49 PM UTC-6, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
< Audrey Barlow's closest royal descent is from Henry II. I think it's
< possible to upgrade it to one from King John. She was descended from
< Elizabeth de Lisle, daughter of Gerard de Lisle. However, it's uncertain
< whether she was the daughter of his first wife Eleanor FitzAlan or of his < second wife Elizabeth LeStrange.

Elizabeth de Lisle, wife of Sir Edmund de Stonor, was almost certainly the daughter of Sir Gerard de Lisle [died 1360], by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Strange, and not by his 1st wife, Eleanor de Arundel. The reasons for this are chronological in nature.

Referring to Sir Gerard de Lisle's first wife as Eleanor Fitz Alan is a misnomer. VCH Surrey 1 (1902): 348, footnote 1 correctly observes that Eleanor's father, Edmund, Earl of Arundel, is “commonly called Fitz Alan but the real designation of the family was then de Arundel.”

A good example of this name change is found the following record in which Eleanor's sister, Alice, is styled Alice Arundel, not Fitz Alan:

Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 4 (1823): 141 (Walden Abbey: “Alicia Arundell [wife of John de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex] sepelitur apud Walden, in medio capellæ beatæ Mariæ”).

The matter of the maternity of Gladys and Margaret, daughters of Llywelyn ap Iorweth, Prince of North Wales, is discussed at length in my book, Royal Ancestry, published in 2013. There is good evidence that Gladys was a legitimate daughter of Prince Llywelyn, by his wife, Joan of England. The maternity of Llywelyn's daughter Margaret is uncertain.

DR
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-04-02 00:34:21 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
< Audrey Barlow's closest royal descent is from Henry II. I think it's
< possible to upgrade it to one from King John. She was descended from
< Elizabeth de Lisle, daughter of Gerard de Lisle. However, it's uncertain
< whether she was the daughter of his first wife Eleanor FitzAlan or of his < second wife Elizabeth LeStrange.
Elizabeth de Lisle, wife of Sir Edmund de Stonor, was almost certainly the daughter of Sir Gerard de Lisle [died 1360], by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Strange, and not by his 1st wife, Eleanor de Arundel. The reasons for this are chronological in nature.
Referring to Sir Gerard de Lisle's first wife as Eleanor Fitz Alan is a misnomer. VCH Surrey 1 (1902): 348, footnote 1 correctly observes that Eleanor's father, Edmund, Earl of Arundel, is “commonly called Fitz Alan but the real designation of the family was then de Arundel.”
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 4 (1823): 141 (Walden Abbey: “Alicia Arundell [wife of John de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex] sepelitur apud Walden, in medio capellæ beatæ Mariæ”).
The matter of the maternity of Gladys and Margaret, daughters of Llywelyn ap Iorweth, Prince of North Wales, is discussed at length in my book, Royal Ancestry, published in 2013. There is good evidence that Gladys was a legitimate daughter of Prince Llywelyn, by his wife, Joan of England. The maternity of Llywelyn's daughter Margaret is uncertain.
DR
What about this alternate descent of Audrey Barlow from Gwladys and, thus, probably Joan? Audrey Barlow's descent from Henry II is through Maud Trussell. Many online genealogies have her husband John Hastings as son of John de Hastang son of Thomas de Hastang son of John de Hastang son of Isabella de Mortimer son of Roger de Mortimer son of Gwladys. Is this correct?
P J Evans
2020-04-02 02:46:43 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by c***@gmail.com
< Audrey Barlow's closest royal descent is from Henry II. I think it's
< possible to upgrade it to one from King John. She was descended from
< Elizabeth de Lisle, daughter of Gerard de Lisle. However, it's uncertain
< whether she was the daughter of his first wife Eleanor FitzAlan or of his < second wife Elizabeth LeStrange.
Elizabeth de Lisle, wife of Sir Edmund de Stonor, was almost certainly the daughter of Sir Gerard de Lisle [died 1360], by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Strange, and not by his 1st wife, Eleanor de Arundel. The reasons for this are chronological in nature.
Referring to Sir Gerard de Lisle's first wife as Eleanor Fitz Alan is a misnomer. VCH Surrey 1 (1902): 348, footnote 1 correctly observes that Eleanor's father, Edmund, Earl of Arundel, is “commonly called Fitz Alan but the real designation of the family was then de Arundel.”
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 4 (1823): 141 (Walden Abbey: “Alicia Arundell [wife of John de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex] sepelitur apud Walden, in medio capellæ beatæ Mariæ”).
The matter of the maternity of Gladys and Margaret, daughters of Llywelyn ap Iorweth, Prince of North Wales, is discussed at length in my book, Royal Ancestry, published in 2013. There is good evidence that Gladys was a legitimate daughter of Prince Llywelyn, by his wife, Joan of England. The maternity of Llywelyn's daughter Margaret is uncertain.
DR
What about this alternate descent of Audrey Barlow from Gwladys and, thus, probably Joan? Audrey Barlow's descent from Henry II is through Maud Trussell. Many online genealogies have her husband John Hastings as son of John de Hastang son of Thomas de Hastang son of John de Hastang son of Isabella de Mortimer son of Roger de Mortimer son of Gwladys. Is this correct?
From back in 2007:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/1GQ59YlTA1Q
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-04-02 11:34:50 UTC
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Post by P J Evans
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by c***@gmail.com
< Audrey Barlow's closest royal descent is from Henry II. I think it's
< possible to upgrade it to one from King John. She was descended from
< Elizabeth de Lisle, daughter of Gerard de Lisle. However, it's uncertain
< whether she was the daughter of his first wife Eleanor FitzAlan or of his < second wife Elizabeth LeStrange.
Elizabeth de Lisle, wife of Sir Edmund de Stonor, was almost certainly the daughter of Sir Gerard de Lisle [died 1360], by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth le Strange, and not by his 1st wife, Eleanor de Arundel. The reasons for this are chronological in nature.
Referring to Sir Gerard de Lisle's first wife as Eleanor Fitz Alan is a misnomer. VCH Surrey 1 (1902): 348, footnote 1 correctly observes that Eleanor's father, Edmund, Earl of Arundel, is “commonly called Fitz Alan but the real designation of the family was then de Arundel.”
Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 4 (1823): 141 (Walden Abbey: “Alicia Arundell [wife of John de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex] sepelitur apud Walden, in medio capellæ beatæ Mariæ”).
The matter of the maternity of Gladys and Margaret, daughters of Llywelyn ap Iorweth, Prince of North Wales, is discussed at length in my book, Royal Ancestry, published in 2013. There is good evidence that Gladys was a legitimate daughter of Prince Llywelyn, by his wife, Joan of England. The maternity of Llywelyn's daughter Margaret is uncertain.
DR
What about this alternate descent of Audrey Barlow from Gwladys and, thus, probably Joan? Audrey Barlow's descent from Henry II is through Maud Trussell. Many online genealogies have her husband John Hastings as son of John de Hastang son of Thomas de Hastang son of John de Hastang son of Isabella de Mortimer son of Roger de Mortimer son of Gwladys. Is this correct?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/1GQ59YlTA1Q
Thanks for the link, but that doesn't say anything about the elder John's origins.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-03-21 21:05:31 UTC
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Does anyone else have any more thoughts?
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