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Count Giselbert of count Friedrich, that is the question!
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Hans Vogels
2015-08-03 21:47:19 UTC
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When we look at the father of Otgive (Otgiva) + 1030, wife of count Baldwin IV of Flanders, we arrive at a doubtful paternity. Which of the two brothers was her father? If you want more background on the pros and cons you should first visit the concerning page on the website of Stewart Balwin:
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/otgiv000.htm

The problem deciding the paternity lies also on the field of chronology. We don't know when Balwin IV and Otgive married. Stewart suggests a date of birth for their son Baldwin V around 1012 or earlier.

Heinz Renn, "Das erste Luxemburger Grafenhaus (963-1136)", in: Rheinisches Archiv 39 (1941), page 116, writes the following: "Wir können die Ehe der Otviga mit dem Grafen von Flandern vielmehr um 1005 ansetzen. Ihr Gemahl, Balduin II, steht damals im Mannesalter, da er seit 986 dem Tode seines Vaters, wenn anfangs auch noch in unmündigen Alter, als regierender Graf von Flandern erscheint. Als Balduin von Flandern 1006 die Übergriffe ins Reich unternimmt, ist er sicherlich schon der Verschwägerte König Heinrichs II.".

I admit, it is just an opinion of Renn but it set me thinking.

Baldwin IV was born 980x5,
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/baldw004.htm .
He was the only son of Arnulf II (born ca.960, married ca.980, died ca.988), the only son of Baldwin II (born ca.936, married ca.960, died 962) so he must have grown up with the fact that the line of counts of Flanders twice almost extinguished by an early death of his father and grandfather. At the turn of the milennium he was 15/20 years of age nearing the age when his father married. In 1006 he started a war by invading the neighbouring counties of Valencijn and Ename. A counterattack by the emperor Henry II and the French king Robert II was brushed off. In 1007 emperor Henry II came back and conquered the castle of Ghent resulting in a peace treaty and Baldwin IV retreated from the conquered Valencijn and Ename.

Being unmarried Baldwin took a gambling chance with his warfare. He must have been confident before he started. His future wife Otgive was a niece of the emperor. If he was married before he went to war he might have gambled that the emperor might not act. On the other hand a marriage with a kinswoman of the emperor might have been a result of the peace he made. One or the other, I guess that Baldwin IV might indeed have been married around 1005 or else in 1007. His son Baldwin V was born in or before 1012. He might have had on elder son named after his father Arnulf II, whose successor he was. He might even have had daugthers so a marriage 1005x10 is certainly likely and 1005x07 plausable.

Gisela, sister of Otgive, married the nobleman Ralph, lord of Alost (1031/34-1052), advocate of St. Peter's Abbey in Ghent. In their family we find a son with name Gi(sel)lbert (1056-1075), lord of Folkingham and an grandson Gilbert (1088-before 1106/21), knight who went on the crusade 1096. As father of Otgive and Gisela there are two possibilities, both sons of Sigefroid "of Luxemburg": Giselbert, + 1004, count of Wallerfangen; Friedrich, + 1019, count of the Moselgau, lord of Gleiberg.
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/gisel102.htm
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/frede000.htm

The other suggested brothers and sisters of Otgive and Gisela are: Imiza (Irmintrud)(mentioned 1055), Heinrich (1024-1047), Friedrich (1033-1065), Adalbero (1047-1072), Giselbert (1030-1056/59), Dietrich (1036-1056/59), Hermann (1045-1056), Uda.

Imiza married Welf II, count of Altdorf, + 1030, in an unknown year. Her daughter Kunigunde must have married in the end of the '30 with the Italian count of Este. They had a son Welf III who was at least 15 years of age in 1055 as he was known to have been married (widowed or divorced). This points to a mother that must have been born ultimately in the early '20. Because of this uncertainty, the age of Welf II (ca.965-1030) and his son in law Alberto Azzo of Este (996-1097) and the assumption that her elder sisters were Otgive and Gisela, the marriage of Imiza has usually been placed around 1015 or sooner and the marriage of Otgive around 1010.

Brother Heinrich is probably mentioned for the first time in 1024 as a count. That points to an minimal age of 15 years. That kind of age is usually used as marker to be able to execute a function like count etc. It probably ties in with being of age according Ripuarian Law. This gives Heinrich a birth year of 1009 or earlier. Adalbero was consecrated as bishop of Metz in 1047. Usually, there are known exceptions, that means that he must minimally must have been 30 years of age. That fixes him on 1017 or earlier. Brother Giselbert is first seen in 1030 so that gives him an estimate of 1015 or earlier. Although Friedrich is first mentioned in 1033 he and not his brother Giselbert got appointed as duke of Lower Lorraine. In 1036 he is mentioned with his younger brothers Giselbert and Dietrich. That puts him in the timeline between Heinrich and Giselbert. So probably does their sister Uda, abbess in Lúneville. The late appearance of the brothers Dietrich and Hermann points to their being the youngest sons of count Friedrich. As their father died on 6 October 1019 the youngest child must have been born in 1019 or the first half of 1020 latest. As daughter Imiza has a daughter in the early '20 she can easily have married around 1020. As girls reach their puberty around 15 years, (average estimate, there are known exceptions) she could have been born around 1005.

Most researchers have been eager to push the birth years of the children of count Friedrich in de period of the first decennium of the 11th century. Even Renn (p.115) writes: "Graf Friedrich muss seine Gattin um 985-990 heimgeführt haben", but he was under the assumption that Otgive was the eldest daughter and born after 985. Count Friedrich is first mentioned in 996 as count and in 1004 as advocate of Stavelot-Malmedy. Friedrich was a younger son of count Siegfried/Sigefroid, + ca.998. He had 5 brothers of whom two became clergy and later bishop so there was no urgent need for Friedrich to get married. But in 1004 that changed as his elder brother Giselbert was killed in Italy. The eldest brother Heinrich, first mentioned in 964, was at the time still unmarried and had no inclination to get married, and another brother Siegfried was probably already dead in 998.

According to my view his brother Giselbert died in 1004 leaving only two daughters and that left Friedrich the task to continue the bloodline by marrying and start a family with preferably lots of sons. The years of the sons first appearances suggest a much younger birth year then usually is accepted, but if one researches the offspring of the brothers one comes to the conclusion that it explains their late marriage estimates, and late first appearance of (Friedrich's) grandchildren. When brother Giselbert died his daughters probably were raised for some time in the family of uncle Friedrich from where they married and that may possibly explain the uncertainty in the tradition on the paternity of Otgive.

So no new evidence in the matter but a new look at the known facts. Too much in the past has been explained away in the direction of one big family with 10 children that one failed to look at the primary facts. In Gisela's family we find a son with the name Gi(si)lbert and a grandson with that name. No Friedrich, Heinrich, Albero, Dietrich and Hermann can be found but names as Baldwin (after uncle Baldwin of Flanders), Ralph (after the paternal grandfather and father), Gilbert (after the maternal grandfather) and Ragenfrid (named after ?). Sister Otgive could already have been married as soon as 1005 or else in 1007. The children of Friedrich + 1019, appear from (ca.1020) 1024 onwards until 1045. Before the first son of Friedrich started thinking of marriage, Baldwin V of Flanders, son of Otgive, was already married in 1028. It kind of suggests that Baldwin V and the sons of Friedrich were of the same age generation as both their parents married around the same time.

No new evidence thus but a better probability now that count Giselbert was the father of the sisters Otgive and Gisela of Wallerfangen ("Luxemburg").

Hans Vogels
Hans Vogels
2015-08-04 13:22:46 UTC
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One could add that the positioning of Otgive as daughter of count Giselbert opens a new research direction.

As far as is possibly known this name Otgive (Otgiva/Odgiva) can not be found in the ancestry of the wife of count Friedrich. The name of Friedrich's now eldest daughter Imiza (Irmintrud) points to a naming of her maternal grandmother Ermentrude/Imiza wife of Heribert, count in Kinziggau. A search for an explanation of the name Otgive in the family of Friedrich's inlaws prooved futile.

Now that we assign Otgive as the eldest daughter of count Giselbert we have much more opportunity for result. Not that it yet has given a concrete direction, but the name Otgive (Otgiva/Odgiva) sounds like an echo from the past.

King Eadweard 'the Elder' had a daughter Ælfgifu or Ealdgyth (Adiva) that was sent in 929 (or earlier) with her sister Eadgyth to king Heinrich I of Germany with the purpose that one of them should marry his son Otto. In 930 Otto married one of them. The other (Adiva) is said to have married a prince near the Alps. http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/edwar001.htm

Perhaps Otgive of Wallerfangen ("Luxemburg") was through her unknown mother a descendant of the lost daughter of king Eadweard the Elder? Has anyone seen the name Ælfgifu/Ealdgyth/ Adiva / Otgive/Otgiva/Odgiva come by in the period 930-990? If Otgive (born ca.990) was a descendant, there must have been a couple (say 3) of generations in between with the likelyhood of one or more carrying that name.

Hans Vogels
Post by Hans Vogels
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/otgiv000.htm
The problem deciding the paternity lies also on the field of chronology. We don't know when Balwin IV and Otgive married. Stewart suggests a date of birth for their son Baldwin V around 1012 or earlier.
Heinz Renn, "Das erste Luxemburger Grafenhaus (963-1136)", in: Rheinisches Archiv 39 (1941), page 116, writes the following: "Wir können die Ehe der Otviga mit dem Grafen von Flandern vielmehr um 1005 ansetzen. Ihr Gemahl, Balduin II, steht damals im Mannesalter, da er seit 986 dem Tode seines Vaters, wenn anfangs auch noch in unmündigen Alter, als regierender Graf von Flandern erscheint. Als Balduin von Flandern 1006 die Übergriffe ins Reich unternimmt, ist er sicherlich schon der Verschwägerte König Heinrichs II.".
I admit, it is just an opinion of Renn but it set me thinking.
Baldwin IV was born 980x5,
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/baldw004.htm .
He was the only son of Arnulf II (born ca.960, married ca.980, died ca.988), the only son of Baldwin II (born ca.936, married ca.960, died 962) so he must have grown up with the fact that the line of counts of Flanders twice almost extinguished by an early death of his father and grandfather. At the turn of the milennium he was 15/20 years of age nearing the age when his father married. In 1006 he started a war by invading the neighbouring counties of Valencijn and Ename. A counterattack by the emperor Henry II and the French king Robert II was brushed off. In 1007 emperor Henry II came back and conquered the castle of Ghent resulting in a peace treaty and Baldwin IV retreated from the conquered Valencijn and Ename.
Being unmarried Baldwin took a gambling chance with his warfare. He must have been confident before he started. His future wife Otgive was a niece of the emperor. If he was married before he went to war he might have gambled that the emperor might not act. On the other hand a marriage with a kinswoman of the emperor might have been a result of the peace he made. One or the other, I guess that Baldwin IV might indeed have been married around 1005 or else in 1007. His son Baldwin V was born in or before 1012. He might have had on elder son named after his father Arnulf II, whose successor he was. He might even have had daugthers so a marriage 1005x10 is certainly likely and 1005x07 plausable.
Gisela, sister of Otgive, married the nobleman Ralph, lord of Alost (1031/34-1052), advocate of St. Peter's Abbey in Ghent. In their family we find a son with name Gi(sel)lbert (1056-1075), lord of Folkingham and an grandson Gilbert (1088-before 1106/21), knight who went on the crusade 1096. As father of Otgive and Gisela there are two possibilities, both sons of Sigefroid "of Luxemburg": Giselbert, + 1004, count of Wallerfangen; Friedrich, + 1019, count of the Moselgau, lord of Gleiberg.
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/gisel102.htm
http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/frede000.htm
The other suggested brothers and sisters of Otgive and Gisela are: Imiza (Irmintrud)(mentioned 1055), Heinrich (1024-1047), Friedrich (1033-1065), Adalbero (1047-1072), Giselbert (1030-1056/59), Dietrich (1036-1056/59), Hermann (1045-1056), Uda.
Imiza married Welf II, count of Altdorf, + 1030, in an unknown year. Her daughter Kunigunde must have married in the end of the '30 with the Italian count of Este. They had a son Welf III who was at least 15 years of age in 1055 as he was known to have been married (widowed or divorced). This points to a mother that must have been born ultimately in the early '20. Because of this uncertainty, the age of Welf II (ca.965-1030) and his son in law Alberto Azzo of Este (996-1097) and the assumption that her elder sisters were Otgive and Gisela, the marriage of Imiza has usually been placed around 1015 or sooner and the marriage of Otgive around 1010.
Brother Heinrich is probably mentioned for the first time in 1024 as a count. That points to an minimal age of 15 years. That kind of age is usually used as marker to be able to execute a function like count etc. It probably ties in with being of age according Ripuarian Law. This gives Heinrich a birth year of 1009 or earlier. Adalbero was consecrated as bishop of Metz in 1047. Usually, there are known exceptions, that means that he must minimally must have been 30 years of age. That fixes him on 1017 or earlier. Brother Giselbert is first seen in 1030 so that gives him an estimate of 1015 or earlier. Although Friedrich is first mentioned in 1033 he and not his brother Giselbert got appointed as duke of Lower Lorraine. In 1036 he is mentioned with his younger brothers Giselbert and Dietrich. That puts him in the timeline between Heinrich and Giselbert. So probably does their sister Uda, abbess in Lúneville. The late appearance of the brothers Dietrich and Hermann points to their being the youngest sons of count Friedrich. As their father died on 6 October 1019 the youngest child must have been born in 1019 or the first half of 1020 latest. As daughter Imiza has a daughter in the early '20 she can easily have married around 1020. As girls reach their puberty around 15 years, (average estimate, there are known exceptions) she could have been born around 1005.
Most researchers have been eager to push the birth years of the children of count Friedrich in de period of the first decennium of the 11th century. Even Renn (p.115) writes: "Graf Friedrich muss seine Gattin um 985-990 heimgeführt haben", but he was under the assumption that Otgive was the eldest daughter and born after 985. Count Friedrich is first mentioned in 996 as count and in 1004 as advocate of Stavelot-Malmedy. Friedrich was a younger son of count Siegfried/Sigefroid, + ca.998. He had 5 brothers of whom two became clergy and later bishop so there was no urgent need for Friedrich to get married. But in 1004 that changed as his elder brother Giselbert was killed in Italy. The eldest brother Heinrich, first mentioned in 964, was at the time still unmarried and had no inclination to get married, and another brother Siegfried was probably already dead in 998.
According to my view his brother Giselbert died in 1004 leaving only two daughters and that left Friedrich the task to continue the bloodline by marrying and start a family with preferably lots of sons. The years of the sons first appearances suggest a much younger birth year then usually is accepted, but if one researches the offspring of the brothers one comes to the conclusion that it explains their late marriage estimates, and late first appearance of (Friedrich's) grandchildren. When brother Giselbert died his daughters probably were raised for some time in the family of uncle Friedrich from where they married and that may possibly explain the uncertainty in the tradition on the paternity of Otgive.
So no new evidence in the matter but a new look at the known facts. Too much in the past has been explained away in the direction of one big family with 10 children that one failed to look at the primary facts. In Gisela's family we find a son with the name Gi(si)lbert and a grandson with that name. No Friedrich, Heinrich, Albero, Dietrich and Hermann can be found but names as Baldwin (after uncle Baldwin of Flanders), Ralph (after the paternal grandfather and father), Gilbert (after the maternal grandfather) and Ragenfrid (named after ?). Sister Otgive could already have been married as soon as 1005 or else in 1007. The children of Friedrich + 1019, appear from (ca.1020) 1024 onwards until 1045. Before the first son of Friedrich started thinking of marriage, Baldwin V of Flanders, son of Otgive, was already married in 1028. It kind of suggests that Baldwin V and the sons of Friedrich were of the same age generation as both their parents married around the same time.
No new evidence thus but a better probability now that count Giselbert was the father of the sisters Otgive and Gisela of Wallerfangen ("Luxemburg").
Hans Vogels
Stewart Baldwin via
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
One could add that the positioning of Otgive as daughter of count Giselbert opens a new research direction.
As far as is possibly known this name Otgive (Otgiva/Odgiva) can not be found in the ancestry of the wife of count Friedrich. The name of Friedrich's now eldest daughter Imiza (Irmintrud) points to a naming of her maternal grandmother Ermentrude/Imiza wife of Heribert, count in Kinziggau. A search for an explanation of the name Otgive in the family of Friedrich's inlaws prooved futile.
Now that we assign Otgive as the eldest daughter of count Giselbert we have much more opportunity for result. Not that it yet has given a concrete direction, but the name Otgive (Otgiva/Odgiva) sounds like an echo from the past.
King Eadweard 'the Elder' had a daughter Ælfgifu or Ealdgyth (Adiva) that was sent in 929 (or earlier) with her sister Eadgyth to king Heinrich I of Germany with the purpose that one of them should marry his son Otto. In 930 Otto married one of them. The other (Adiva) is said to have married a prince near the Alps. http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/edwar001.htm
Perhaps Otgive of Wallerfangen ("Luxemburg") was through her unknown mother a descendant of the lost daughter of king Eadweard the Elder? Has anyone seen the name Ælfgifu/Ealdgyth/ Adiva / Otgive/Otgiva/Odgiva come by in the period 930-990? If Otgive (born ca.990) was a descendant, there must have been a couple (say 3) of generations in between with the likelyhood of one or more carrying that name.
On 25 September 2006, I posted a message to this group suggesting the possibility (still just a conjecture) that if Giselbert was Otgive's father, then her mother might have been Mathilde, daughter of Conrad, king of Burgundy. See the following message in the archives for details:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1159203735

Mathilde was a daughter of Conrad of Burgundy by his wife Mathilde, daughter of Louis IV, king of France, whose mother was Eadgifu of Wessex, daughter of Edward the Elder. "Otgive" looks very much like a continental variation of Eadgifu.

The advantage of this conjecture is that it fits well with a number of pieces of circumstantial evidence (mentioned in the above posting).

The obvious disadvantage is that there is no clear direct evidence supporting the suggested relationship.

Stewart Baldwin
Hans Vogels
2018-10-27 11:14:42 UTC
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I tried to read again the following reference by Stewart Baldwin to a posting in 2006 on Rootsweb.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1159203735

However, it now results in a 404 error.

Is it still possible to read the posting?
And if so, what's the easiest way to there?

Hans Vogels
Post by Stewart Baldwin via
Post by Hans Vogels
One could add that the positioning of Otgive as daughter of count Giselbert opens a new research direction.
As far as is possibly known this name Otgive (Otgiva/Odgiva) can not be found in the ancestry of the wife of count Friedrich. The name of Friedrich's now eldest daughter Imiza (Irmintrud) points to a naming of her maternal grandmother Ermentrude/Imiza wife of Heribert, count in Kinziggau. A search for an explanation of the name Otgive in the family of Friedrich's inlaws prooved futile.
Now that we assign Otgive as the eldest daughter of count Giselbert we have much more opportunity for result. Not that it yet has given a concrete direction, but the name Otgive (Otgiva/Odgiva) sounds like an echo from the past.
King Eadweard 'the Elder' had a daughter Ælfgifu or Ealdgyth (Adiva) that was sent in 929 (or earlier) with her sister Eadgyth to king Heinrich I of Germany with the purpose that one of them should marry his son Otto. In 930 Otto married one of them. The other (Adiva) is said to have married a prince near the Alps. http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/edwar001.htm
Perhaps Otgive of Wallerfangen ("Luxemburg") was through her unknown mother a descendant of the lost daughter of king Eadweard the Elder? Has anyone seen the name Ælfgifu/Ealdgyth/ Adiva / Otgive/Otgiva/Odgiva come by in the period 930-990? If Otgive (born ca.990) was a descendant, there must have been a couple (say 3) of generations in between with the likelyhood of one or more carrying that name.
Mathilde was a daughter of Conrad of Burgundy by his wife Mathilde, daughter of Louis IV, king of France, whose mother was Eadgifu of Wessex, daughter of Edward the Elder. "Otgive" looks very much like a continental variation of Eadgifu.
The advantage of this conjecture is that it fits well with a number of pieces of circumstantial evidence (mentioned in the above posting).
The obvious disadvantage is that there is no clear direct evidence supporting the suggested relationship.
Stewart Baldwin
taf
2018-10-27 13:27:23 UTC
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Post by Hans Vogels
I tried to read again the following reference by Stewart Baldwin to a posting in 2006 on Rootsweb.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1159203735
However, it now results in a 404 error.
Is it still possible to read the posting?
And if so, what's the easiest way to there?
The bad news us that when Rootsweb reconfigured their computers at the beginning of the year, they killed the mailing list archives. At the time they promised to slowly rebuild them, but even when they do, it will result in a different URL.

The good news: the post is available on the Google Groups archive. Just go to soc.gen.med in Google Groups and search using the terms 'Giselbert Conrad Burgundy'. The first thread you see will be this one, the second thread, entitled 'Otgiva of Luxemburg' begins with the post in question.

taf
Hans Vogels
2018-10-28 14:50:27 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by Hans Vogels
I tried to read again the following reference by Stewart Baldwin to a posting in 2006 on Rootsweb.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1159203735
However, it now results in a 404 error.
Is it still possible to read the posting?
And if so, what's the easiest way to there?
The bad news us that when Rootsweb reconfigured their computers at the beginning of the year, they killed the mailing list archives. At the time they promised to slowly rebuild them, but even when they do, it will result in a different URL.
The good news: the post is available on the Google Groups archive. Just go to soc.gen.med in Google Groups and search using the terms 'Giselbert Conrad Burgundy'. The first thread you see will be this one, the second thread, entitled 'Otgiva of Luxemburg' begins with the post in question.
taf
Thanks Taf,

With regards,
Hans vogels

Peter Stewart via
2015-08-05 22:52:12 UTC
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Post by Stewart Baldwin via
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-09/1159203735
Mathilde was a daughter of Conrad of Burgundy by his wife Mathilde, daughter of Louis IV, king of France, whose mother was Eadgifu of Wessex, daughter of Edward the Elder. "Otgive" looks very much like a continental variation of Eadgifu.
The forms "Otgiva" and "Ogiva" were used for Louis IV's mother in
several sources, the former by Witger in his genealogy (MGH Scriptores
volume ix, p 303), the second in a brief history of the Frankish kings
(Paris, BnF, ms latin 16819 fol 101v).

Peter Stewart
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