Discussion:
Sir Lewis Clifford/Eleanor de Mowbray Question
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Nicole Forsgren
2017-05-16 23:12:06 UTC
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I have a couple of questions about the Clifford line pertaining to:

Sir Lewis de Clifford (d. 1404) and his wife Eleanor de Mowbray (d. 1387)

1st question:
I’ve been using Plantagenet Ancestry for research. It states on p. 401 that Lewis and Eleanor had one son: Lewis Clifford. Is this the same Lewis Clifford that married Anne Moleyns (dau. Of William de Moleyns and Margery)? If not, do you have any information about that particular Lewis Clifford?
I’ve also seen that the Lewis, who was married to Anne Moleyn, father’s name was William de Clifford (whose parents were Lewis de Clifford and Eleanor de Mowbray). According to Plantagenet Ancestry, Lewis and Eleanor had 1 son: Lewis. So unless the book is wrong, that is obviously not right.
I’m not sure about the dates I have for any of these, so thought I’d turn to you for some help.

2nd Question:
I’ve been researching Sir Lewis de Clifford (d. 1404), in the hopes of finding an answer to my first question. I have been finding contradicting information regarding the identity of his parents. A couple sources list Robert de Clifford/Isabel de Berkeley as his parents with Roger de Clifford as a brother. A couple other sources list Roger de Clifford (5th Lord Clifford)/Maud de Beauchamp. Can anyone clarify which, if any, is correct?

I’m beginning to think there might be more than 2 Lewis Clifford’s getting mixed up in this family line…
Thank you for your help in advance.
Paulo Canedo
2017-05-17 13:21:51 UTC
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Dugdale said that Lewis was son of Roger however Sir H.Nicholas analysed and said he was probably his brother not his son.
Nicole Forsgren
2017-05-18 18:42:45 UTC
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Yes, that's what I've discovered. Everything I've found online and through the archive are just like that. One will say Roger is Lewis' father and the next will say they are brothers. I've even found sources that list the incorrect wife, not Eleanor de Mowbray. It's frustrating, everyone copying everyone else instead of finding some documentation to prove one way or the other.
Andrew Lancaster
2017-05-24 07:44:57 UTC
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A Devon visitation makes him a son of Thomas Clifford:

http://hdl.handle.net/2027/yale.39002002213917?urlappend=%3Bseq=209

And another work which discusses his genealogy in some detail puts him a further generation back, son of Robert, and brother to the above mentioned Roger:

https://archive.org/stream/decontroversiai01scrogoog#page/n451/mode/1up

Complete Peerage, (Vol III, page 292) says "Sir Lewis Clifford, K.G., whose curious will (1404) is given by Dugdale, and who is the reputed ancestor of the Barons Clifford of Chudleigh, was probably a br., but certainly not a son, of this Lord". The Lord being referred to is Roger de Clifford b. 10 July 1333, d. 12 July 1389, aged 56.

Lewis did have a son Lewis. Nothing is known of what happened to him. Old pedigrees also often suggest he and his wife Eleanor had a son named William. For example see the Devonshire pedigree and Dugdale's Baronage. There are strong doubts about whether William is a son of Sir Lewis.

The History of Parliament article for the MP Robert Clifford claims Lewis was even from a Devonshire branch of the Cliffords, and it and many other sources seem to accept it as likely (but not proven) that he was closely related to William Clifford who married Arnold Savage's daughter in Kent. There were similarities in the arms they bore, and also the Kent family used the name Lewis a lot.

However, they do not seem to have ever been considered as potential heirs to Lewis's known daughter however.
Mike Clifford
2018-03-23 11:57:22 UTC
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I have been researching the history of the Cliffords, particularly those of Northumberland and Kent. I have sought primary records in si far as it is possible to do so electronically, and tended not to accept unequivocally family histories and visitations that cannot be supported by such sources.
There is a Robert de Clifford identified in the will of his brother Richard de Clifford who I understand have the arms of the Ellingham Cliffords (The Journal of the Northumberland & Durham Family History Society Vol. 8 No. 3 July, 1983). Some sources however have then descending from the Westmorland Cliffords, possibly a son of Sir Lewis de Clifford, knight. (Frederick Peter Mackie The Clerical Population of the Province of York University of York 1998) and more generally others suggest a descent from Lewis de Clifford’s brother Thomas, but they bore different arms

My observations are summarised below. The sources can be accessed electronically at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sources/olmed.shtml or http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ unless otherwise indicated.

I would welcome any definitive information that either supports or otherwise disposes of these suggested relationships.
Thanks
Mike Clifford
Richard de Clifford, the elder, clerk,
1383 appointed Warton (Morecombe bay) (CPR)
1387 holding property in Yorkshire.
1390-1398 Keeper of the Great Wardrobe
1397 Dean of York
1397-1401 Lord Privy Seal
1398 Archdeacon Canterbury
1401 Bishop of Worcester (DNB)
1407 Bishop of London
1421 died
Will names brother Robert but no children

Robert de Clifford, brother of the above
Married widow Joan before 1403.
1382 M.P. for Northumberland 1382 (CCR)
1399 appointed Kent (CPR, CFR, CP40), 1403 (CPR) 1405 (CPR) 1406 (CPR) 1407 (CPR) 1408 (CPR), 1410, (CPR) 1411 (CPR) 1415 described late Sheriff of Kent and pardoned (CPR)
William de Clifford, possibly a relative, appointed Sheriff, presumably the individual who married Eleanor / Elizabeth Savage the sister of Arnold Savage
1418 Robert again Sheriff (CPR) and made his will (22/07/1418) which names his wife Joan and a legatee and feoffee John Clyfford, clerk, living St Mildred's parish, Canterbury and property in Kent and Northumberland (CCA-DCc-ChAnt/W/212) http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/a27d0d2d-4c6c-4909-a106-f71b9bd4ff2a
1421 Named in brother's will
1427 (CPR)

Robert de Clifford who married Jacoba / Jane
I wonder if this Robert, brother of Richard, above, is the Robert de Clifford who post-1376 married as her third husband widow Jane de Strivelyn [Jacoba d'Emeldon] and who in 1386 held land at various locations in Northumberland Manors of Harnham (Bolam) and Blackhedley (Shotley),also near Hartburn and Corbridge http://archive.org/stream/archaeologiaaeli06sociuoft#page/64/mode/2up/search/clifford and CP 25/1/181/14, number 14. http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_181_14.shtml
1381 CP40 http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40no483/CP40no483.htm
1382 enfeoffed a Richard de Clifford with Bolam https://archive.org/stream/archaeologiaael08unkngoog#page/n137/mode/2up/search/clifford
1391 Jacoba died 1391

William de Clifford who married Eleanor Elizabeth Savage the sister of Arnold Savage
I can find no unequivocal record of William’s ancestry or place of birth
Andrew Lancaster
2018-03-23 14:46:25 UTC
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Thanks for posting that Mike. Maybe no new conclusions yet, but one day hopefully someone will connect the pieces of the puzzle.
d***@aol.com
2019-08-04 12:52:03 UTC
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Robert Clifford the MP and his undoubted “brother” Bishop Richard Clifford had entirely different arms (Robert: three eagles displayed, and the bishop: the usual checky Clifford arms within a border and with a mitre on the fess). Which all seems completely mysterious if they were brothers. However, I believe the explanation is that they were half brothers. A sketch in the Bodleian Library by Roger Dodsworth (d. 1654) of the now vanished brass on Robert’s tomb in Canterbury Cathedral shows him in armour surrounded by eight shields (four on each side) which must have been connected with Robert in some way and I believe provide the answer. The shields are clockwise from top left:

1. Three eagles displayed.
2. A lion rampant quartering three luces,
3. Same as 1 but impaling a cross engrailed,
4. Checky, a plain fess all within a border,
5. A lion rampant,
6. Same as 4 but with a cross patty on the fess,
7. Same as 4 but with a mitre on the fess,
8. Same as 1.

8 and 3 are linked by foliage so must have been for Robert and his wife/widow Joan. 1 must be Robert’s father and 2 his mother (so she must have been a Percy). My theory is that the Percy lady married a Clifford of Ellingham, Northumberland (shield 1) and they were Robert’s parents. She was widowed and then married (as I believe) Sir Lewis Clifford (shield 4) who, with his second wife Eleanor Mowbray (shield 5) became Robert’s step-parents, thereby warranting a place on his tomb. Bishop Richard was the son of Sir Lewis by his first wife, the Percy lady, and thus Robert’s half-brother. Shield 6 (with its suitably ecclesiastical Maltese cross) is Richard’s before he became a bishop and 7 is for Richard after he became a bishop. The inscription on the tomb (copied by Dodwsorth) clearly states he was the brother (frater) of Richard the bishop.

As to Sir Lewis, I think (like others) that he must have been a younger son of the 3rd Lord Clifford (despite not being mentioned in his Inquisition Post Mortem which mentions only three sons - but is that very unusual, I wonder?). He certainly couldn’t have been a son of the 5th lord because the dates are all wrong.

All very intriguing.

Hew Stevenson
wjhonson
2019-08-05 17:53:58 UTC
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Collin's Peerage states that the name of that Lewis Clifford who d 1404 was Eleanor daughter of John Lord Delaware.

https://books.google.com/books?id=zvQ6AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA121#v=onepage&q&f=false
John Higgins
2019-08-05 19:25:08 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
Collin's Peerage states that the name of that Lewis Clifford who d 1404 was Eleanor daughter of John Lord Delaware.
https://books.google.com/books?id=zvQ6AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA121#v=onepage&q&f=false
Collins (actually Brydges, the compiler of this edition of Collins' Peerage) was wrong, and this error has been discussed before in this group. See posts in Dec. 2002 and Feb. 2003. Also see CP 4:146/7.

Eleanor was the daughter of John, Lord Mowbray and the widow of Roger, Lord La Warre or Delawar. Brydges and/or Collins somehow combined the two into "John, Lord Delawar".
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