Discussion:
Parentage of Ada (living 1305-6), wife of Sir Guy Botetourt, of Little Ellingham, Norfolk
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Douglas Richardson
2016-05-28 19:59:26 UTC
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Dear Newsgroup ~

Back in 2008, I proposed a speculative theory that Ada (living 1305-6), wife of Sir Guy Botetourt, and mother of Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, might possibly be the same person as Ada de Hastings, widow of Sir Hubert Hovel (died c.1254). In the intervening time, I've found no evidence to support this idea. While this theory remains a possibility, I now believe Ada Botetourt belongs to another family, namely the Tibetot family.

Combing through the Patent Rolls, I recently determined that in 1254 Guy Botetourt (husband of Ada) was granted free warren in all his demesne lands in Norfolk in 1254, "at the request of Robert de Ibetot." [Reference: Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1247–1258 (1908): 327]. Robert de Ibetot named in this record is surely the same person as Sir Robert de Tibetot, Knt. (born c.1229, died 1298), of Nettlestead, Suffolk, Burwell and Harston, Cambridgeshire, etc. Sir Robert de Tibetot was a close personal friend of Prince Edward, son of King Henry III, which Edward was afterwards King Edward I.

Besides the 1254 record, I find that there were numerous subsequent common appearances in contemporary records of the Botetourt and Tibetot families. In 1290, for example, Sir Guy Botetourt and his son, Sir John Botetourt, witnessed an indenture between Sir Roger de Leukenore and Sir Robert de Tybotot regarding the manor of Menchesham [Mendlesham, Suffolk], excepting the dower of Margery, widow of Hugh Fitz Otes, Knt. [Reference: Cal. of Close Rolls, 1288–1296 (1904): 131].

Research indicates that Sir Robert de Tibetot (died 1298) was the son and heir of Henry de Tibetot (or Tybetot, Typetot), of Shopland, Essex (died before 26 Dec. 1241), by his wife, Alda (or Ada). I might also note that Sir Robert de Tibetot and his wife, Eve de Chaworth, named one of their daughters, Ada.

Given that Sir Robert de Tibetot's mother and daughter were named Alda or Ada, and given the numerous subsequent appearances of the Botetourt and Tibetot families in contemporary records, it seems quite possible to me that Ada, wife of Sir Guy Botetourt, was the sister of Sir Robert de Tibetot, and thus the daughter of Henry de Tibetot and his wife, Alda (or Ada). Such a Botetourt-Tibetot connection would readily explain the rise of Sir Guy and Ada Botetourt's son, Sir John Botetourt, in the reign of King Edward I.

Having said that, more evidence needs to be located before Ada Botetourt can be assigned as a daughter of Henry de Tibetot, and his wife, Alda (or Ada). While I believe that Ada Botetourt was a Tibetot, this is still a speculative theory and should be treated as such.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Dear Newgroup ~
In my post this past week regarding Ada of Huntingdon, wife of Sir
Henry de Hastings, I stated that Ada de Huntingdon did not marry (2nd)
either Ralph de Brereton or William de Handsacre. Rather, I gave
evidence which proved that Ada of Huntingdon predeceased her husband c.
1242. I raised the possibility, however, that Ada of Huntingdon's
daughter, Ada de Hastings, might have married Sir Ralph de Brereton,
even though there is no real evidence to support the marriage.
In the intervening time, I've given the matter further thought. What
ADA DE HASTINGS. In 1252, being then a ward of the king, she was
abducted by HUBERT HOVEL, Knt., and married to him without the king’s
license. He was a younger son of Robert Hovel, Knt., of Wyverstone,
Suffolk. In Feb. 1252 the king ordered Hubert’s arrest for having
“committed many trespasses in the realm against the king’s crown and
peace.” He was subsequently arrested by the Sheriff of Bedfordshire.
The following year, 1253, the king pardoned Hubert, and commanded the
Sheriff of Bedfordshire to permit him to go free. SIR HUBERT HOVEL
died before Hilary term 1258, when his widow, Ada, claimed dower in
the third part of the manor of Harpol, Suffolk. She released her
claim to brother-in-law, Robert Hovel, senior, in return for an
annuity of two marks of silver, plus a one-time payment of ten marls
of silver. Ada was living in 1260–1261, put she put in her claim to
property in Wickham, Suffolk in a fine recorded that year. She is
possibly the Ada Hovel who occurs on the 1301 lay subsidy at Cundale,
Yorkshire. References: Arch. Journal 26 (1869): 236–256. Brown,
Yorkshire Lay Subsidy (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser. 21) (1898): 1–
8. Rye, Cal. of Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 61, 63. Copinger,
Manors of Suffolk 1 (1905): 397–399. C.P.R. 1247–1258 (1908): 130,
191. Muskett, Suffolk Manorial Fams. 2 (1908): 59–60, 74 (Hovel
pedigree). C.P. 10 (1945): 336, footnote a (sub Pecche).
As we can see, Ada de Hastings was widowed c.1258, and was free to
remarry at that point. My guess is that she married not Sir Ralph de
Brereton, but rather I suspect she is the Ada who married Sir Guy
Botetourt, Knt., of Little Ellingham, Norfolk (died c.1316), and was
the mother of Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt (died
1324). If so, this would help explain Sir John Botetourt's subsequent
meteoric career and his elevation to a peer.
The evidence for this connection is the manor of Great Bradley,
Suffolk, which John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt held about
1316, for which see Feudal Aids, 5 (1908): 45. That record may be
http://books.google.com/books?id=moBnAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Feudal+Aids+Little+Bradley&source=gbs_book_other_versions_r&cad=2_1#PPA45,M1
There is a fine dated 1309–1310, whereby William Fitz Walter conveyed
to John and his wife, Maud, the manor of Great Bradley, Suffolk. This
may not have been a purchase, however, but rather a settlement of the
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=h7DrCiAe9ucC&dq=Rye+Suffolk+Fines&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=o9NGyNepIi&sig=u2u1xiNuE-JgIfs6UznVWyIPqW4&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA119,M1
Ada de Hastings' paternal grandmother, Margaret le Bigod, is alleged
by Dugdale to have had the manor of Little Bradley, Suffolk in
marriage, which might well be true. However, I don't find any of the
later male members of the Hastings family dealing with this manor, so
the manor was probably passed in marriage to one of the later Hastings
women in this time period. If it was given to Ada de Hastings, it
would have passed to her descendants. The land holdings of Little
and Great Bradley appear to have been mixed. So it is possible that
Ada de Hastings' grandmother, Margaret le Bigod, was given property in
both parishes as her maritagium.
The Bigod family certainly had an interest in Great Bradley, Suffolk,
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=h7DrCiAe9ucC&dq=Rye+Suffolk+Fines&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=o9NGyNepIi&sig=u2u1xiNuE-JgIfs6UznVWyIPqW4&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA69,M1
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=h7DrCiAe9ucC&dq=Rye+Suffolk+Fines&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=o9NGyNepIi&sig=u2u1xiNuE-JgIfs6UznVWyIPqW4&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA69,M1
Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt, however, had the
advowson in this place before 1316, when he presented his brother,
Master Roger Botetourt, as rector of Great Bradley, Suffolk. The
advowson thereafter descended in the Botetourt family. See the
http://www.great-bradley.suffolk.gov.uk/Great%20Bradley%20church_files/rectors.htm
I show that Ada, mother of Sir John Botetourt, Knt., was living in
1305–1306, when a settlement was made of the manor of Cranworth,
Norfolk, and property in Wood Rising, Norfolk [see Rye, Short Cal. of
Feet of Fines for Norfolk 2 (1886): 230]. I don't find Ada in records
after this date. If Great Bradley had been her property, she
presumably would have died before 1311, when the manor was settled on
Sir John Botetourt and his wife, Maud.
This is a speculative theory. Please treat it as such.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
c***@gmail.com
2018-11-19 20:22:41 UTC
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Permalink
Dear Newsgroup ~

Back in 2016, I proposed a speculative theory that Ada, wife of Sir Guy Botetourt, of Little Ellingham, Norfolk, and mother of Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, was a member of the Tibetot family.

My working theory was based on continuous associations between the families of Sir Guy Botetourt (died c.1317) and Sir Robert de Tibetot [died 1298), as well as the use of the given names of Ada and Robert in both families.

Since that time, I've found further evidence of continued contact between the two families as indicated below:

1. In 1269–70 Peter de Nevile sued Guy Buteturt and others in the Court of King’s Bench in a Rutland plea regarding land. In the same term, the same Peter de Nevile likewise sued Robert de Typetot and John Tipetot in other lawsuits. Reference: Court of the King’s Bench, KB26/192, image 852d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H3/KB26no192/bKB26no192dorses/IMG_0852.htm).

2. In 1276 Guy Boteturt, Thomas son of Nicholas de Eston, Baldwin de Maneriis [Manners], and William Talemach acknowledged that they owed Robert de Tybetot [Tibetot] a debt of £43 6s. 8d. Reference: Cal. of Close Rolls, 1272–1279 (1900): 338.

3. Sir Robert de Tibetot died testate at Nettlestead, Suffolk 22 May 1298. On 20 July 1298 commissioners were appointed to enquire regarding certain persons who broke the park of Adam son of Robert de Everingham at Lexington, Nottinghamshire, hunted therein, and carried away the deer; the said Adam was then in the custody of the executors of Robert de Tibetot, among them being his widow, Eve, Henry de Lacy, Earl of Lincoln, John Botetourt, and Baldwin de Maneriis. Reference: Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1292–1301 (1895): 381; see also Yorkshire Inqs. 4 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 37) (1906): 1.

4. In 1301 Adam de Everingham acknowledged that he owed Henry de Lacy, Earl of Lincoln, John Boteturte, Baldwin de Maners, and John le Moygne, executors of the will of Robert Tybetot a debt of 600 marks. Reference: Cal. Close Rolls 1296–1302 (1906): 477.

+ + + + + + +

Elsewhere, I find that Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of London, 2nd Series 4 (1869): 200–203 includes a discussion of the seal of Master Roger Botetourt which seal is dated 1323. Master Roger Botetourt is known to have been a younger son of Sir Guy Botetourt (died c.1317) and his wife, Ada [see Richardson, Royal Ancestry 1 (2013)].

The Antiquaries article indicates that Roger Botetourt's seal bears not one, but two coats of arms on a shield, namely, party per pale; dexter, ermine, a saltire engrailed [BOTETOURT]; sinister, a saltire engrailed. The legend reads: S. Rogeri Boteturte.

The author notes that the dexter arms match those of Master Roger Botetourt's father, Sir Guy Botetourt. Inasmuch as Master Roger Botetourt is known to have been a churchman, the second set of arms on the seal would not constitute an impalement representing Roger's marriage to a woman.

As such, the author makes the following intriguing suggestion:

"May not the sinister coat be the arms of some ancestor or distinguished relative of whom Master Roger was proud? ... dimidiation was still in use; quartering had not become a practice." END OF QUOTE.

The above mentioned article may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000060076120;view=1up;seq=200

The author was obviously not aware of the numerous associations between the Botetourt and Tibetot families. If he had been aware, I assume he would have made the logical assumption that the second set of arms, a saltire cross engrailed, belonged to the Tibetot family.

The following is a description of heraldic seals of various male members of the Tibetot family which indicates this family bore a saltire cross engrailed as their arms:

1. Birch, Cat. Seals in the British Museum 3 (1894): 590 (seal of Robert de Tibotot alias Roberd Tybetot dated 1270 — A shield of arms: a saltire lozengy (for a saltire engrailed), TIBETOT. Legend: + S’ ROBERT DE TIBOTOT. Beaded border.).

2. Genealogist n.s. 11 (1895): 110 (Parl. Roll of Arms dated c.1300 — arms of Sire Payn Thippetot: de argent a vn sautour engrele de goules).

3. Ellis, Cat. Seals in the P.R.O. 1 (1978): 65 (seal of Robert Tibetot [Tipetot], knight dated 1366 — In a traceried panel, hanging from an oak tree, a shield of arms: a saltire engrailed, and a label of three points [TIBETOT]. Legend: SIGILLUM. ROBERTI. TIBBETOT).

4. Birch, Cat. Seals in the British Museum 3 (1894): 591 (seal of John Tiptoft, Earl of Worcester dated 1451 — A shield of arms: quarterly, 1,4, a saltire engrailed [TIPTOFT]; 2, 3, a lion rampant [CHERLETON of Powys]. Cabled border.).

In summary, as noted above and in my earlier post dated 2016, the families of Sir Guy Botetourt and Sir Robert de Tibetot are found in close association in numerous records over a long period of time. The given names of Ada and Robert are found in both families. The seal of Master Roger Botetourt is found to have borne two arms, Botetourt and evidently Tibetot. As such, I conclude that Ada, wife of Sir Guy Botetourt, was in fact a sister of Sir Robert de Tibetot, she being a daughter of Henry de Tibetot (died 1241), of Edmondthorpe and Wymondham, Leicestershire, Shopland, Essex, etc., by his wife, Alda (or Ada) [see Complete Peerage 12(2) (1959): 89–89 (sub Tybotot)].

Insofar as the extended Tibetot family tree is concerned, Henry de Tibetot (died 1241) was presumably the son of an earlier Robert de Tybetot who held a knight’s fee of the Earl of Derby in Wymondham and Thorpe [i.e., Edmondthorpe], Leicestershire. In 1209 Robert received a two mark donum as a knight of the king’s household in the army that went to Scotland. By September 1216 he was in service of the earl, he then being described as one of the earl’s knights [Reference: Church, Household Knights of King John (1999): 30]. The manor of Thorpe Edmund [i.e., Edmondthorpe], Leicestershire was subsequently held by Sir Robert de Tibetot (died 1298) and his descendants [see Nichols, Hist. & Antiqs. of Leicester 2(1) (1795): 175, 400; Cal. IPM 3 (1912): 288–321; Complete Peerage 12(2) (1959): 89–89 (sub Tybotot)].

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + +

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 1:59:28 PM UTC-6, Douglas Richardson wrote:
< Dear Newsgroup ~
<
< Back in 2008, I proposed a speculative theory that Ada (living 1305-6), wife < of Sir Guy Botetourt, and mother of Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, < might possibly be the same person as Ada de Hastings, widow of Sir Hubert
< Hovel (died c.1254). In the intervening time, I've found no evidence to
< support this idea. While this theory remains a possibility, I now believe
< Ada Botetourt belongs to another family, namely the Tibetot family.
<
< Combing through the Patent Rolls, I recently determined that in 1254 Guy
< Botetourt (husband of Ada) was granted free warren in all his demesne lands < in Norfolk in 1254, "at the request of Robert de Ibetot." [Reference: Cal.
< of Patent Rolls, 1247–1258 (1908): 327]. Robert de Ibetot named in this
< record is surely the same person as Sir Robert de Tibetot, Knt. (born
< c.1229, died 1298), of Nettlestead, Suffolk, Burwell and Harston,
< Cambridgeshire, etc. Sir Robert de Tibetot was a close personal friend of
< Prince Edward, son of King Henry III, which Edward was afterwards King
< Edward I.
<
< Besides the 1254 record, I find that there were numerous subsequent common
< appearances in contemporary records of the Botetourt and Tibetot families. < In 1290, for example, Sir Guy Botetourt and his son, Sir John Botetourt,
< witnessed an indenture between Sir Roger de Leukenore and Sir Robert de
< Tybotot regarding the manor of Menchesham [Mendlesham, Suffolk], excepting
< the dower of Margery, widow of Hugh Fitz Otes, Knt. [Reference: Cal. of
< Close Rolls, 1288–1296 (1904): 131].
<
< Research indicates that Sir Robert de Tibetot (died 1298) was the son and
< heir of Henry de Tibetot (or Tybetot, Typetot), of Shopland, Essex (died
< before 26 Dec. 1241), by his wife, Alda (or Ada). I might also note that
< Sir Robert de Tibetot and his wife, Eve de Chaworth, named one of their
< daughters, Ada.
<
< Given that Sir Robert de Tibetot's mother and daughter were named Alda or
< Ada, and given the numerous subsequent appearances of the Botetourt and
< Tibetot families in contemporary records, it seems quite possible to me that < Ada, wife of Sir Guy Botetourt, was the sister of Sir Robert de Tibetot, and < thus the daughter of Henry de Tibetot and his wife, Alda (or Ada). Such a
< Botetourt-Tibetot connection would readily explain the rise of Sir Guy and
< Ada Botetourt's son, Sir John Botetourt, in the reign of King Edward I.
<
< Having said that, more evidence needs to be located before Ada Botetourt can < be assigned as a daughter of Henry de Tibetot, and his wife, Alda (or Ada). < While I believe that Ada Botetourt was a Tibetot, this is still a
< speculative theory and should be treated as such.
<
< Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Dear Newgroup ~
In my post this past week regarding Ada of Huntingdon, wife of Sir
Henry de Hastings, I stated that Ada de Huntingdon did not marry (2nd)
either Ralph de Brereton or William de Handsacre. Rather, I gave
evidence which proved that Ada of Huntingdon predeceased her husband c.
1242. I raised the possibility, however, that Ada of Huntingdon's
daughter, Ada de Hastings, might have married Sir Ralph de Brereton,
even though there is no real evidence to support the marriage.
In the intervening time, I've given the matter further thought. What
ADA DE HASTINGS. In 1252, being then a ward of the king, she was
abducted by HUBERT HOVEL, Knt., and married to him without the king’s
license. He was a younger son of Robert Hovel, Knt., of Wyverstone,
Suffolk. In Feb. 1252 the king ordered Hubert’s arrest for having
“committed many trespasses in the realm against the king’s crown and
peace.” He was subsequently arrested by the Sheriff of Bedfordshire.
The following year, 1253, the king pardoned Hubert, and commanded the
Sheriff of Bedfordshire to permit him to go free. SIR HUBERT HOVEL
died before Hilary term 1258, when his widow, Ada, claimed dower in
the third part of the manor of Harpol, Suffolk. She released her
claim to brother-in-law, Robert Hovel, senior, in return for an
annuity of two marks of silver, plus a one-time payment of ten marls
of silver. Ada was living in 1260–1261, put she put in her claim to
property in Wickham, Suffolk in a fine recorded that year. She is
possibly the Ada Hovel who occurs on the 1301 lay subsidy at Cundale,
Yorkshire. References: Arch. Journal 26 (1869): 236–256. Brown,
Yorkshire Lay Subsidy (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser. 21) (1898): 1–
8. Rye, Cal. of Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 61, 63. Copinger,
Manors of Suffolk 1 (1905): 397–399. C.P.R. 1247–1258 (1908): 130,
191. Muskett, Suffolk Manorial Fams. 2 (1908): 59–60, 74 (Hovel
pedigree). C.P. 10 (1945): 336, footnote a (sub Pecche).
As we can see, Ada de Hastings was widowed c.1258, and was free to
remarry at that point. My guess is that she married not Sir Ralph de
Brereton, but rather I suspect she is the Ada who married Sir Guy
Botetourt, Knt., of Little Ellingham, Norfolk (died c.1316), and was
the mother of Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt (died
1324). If so, this would help explain Sir John Botetourt's subsequent
meteoric career and his elevation to a peer.
The evidence for this connection is the manor of Great Bradley,
Suffolk, which John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt held about
1316, for which see Feudal Aids, 5 (1908): 45. That record may be
http://books.google.com/books?id=moBnAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Feudal+Aids+Little+Bradley&source=gbs_book_other_versions_r&cad=2_1#PPA45,M1
There is a fine dated 1309–1310, whereby William Fitz Walter conveyed
to John and his wife, Maud, the manor of Great Bradley, Suffolk. This
may not have been a purchase, however, but rather a settlement of the
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=h7DrCiAe9ucC&dq=Rye+Suffolk+Fines&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=o9NGyNepIi&sig=u2u1xiNuE-JgIfs6UznVWyIPqW4&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA119,M1
Ada de Hastings' paternal grandmother, Margaret le Bigod, is alleged
by Dugdale to have had the manor of Little Bradley, Suffolk in
marriage, which might well be true. However, I don't find any of the
later male members of the Hastings family dealing with this manor, so
the manor was probably passed in marriage to one of the later Hastings
women in this time period. If it was given to Ada de Hastings, it
would have passed to her descendants. The land holdings of Little
and Great Bradley appear to have been mixed. So it is possible that
Ada de Hastings' grandmother, Margaret le Bigod, was given property in
both parishes as her maritagium.
The Bigod family certainly had an interest in Great Bradley, Suffolk,
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=h7DrCiAe9ucC&dq=Rye+Suffolk+Fines&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=o9NGyNepIi&sig=u2u1xiNuE-JgIfs6UznVWyIPqW4&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA69,M1
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=h7DrCiAe9ucC&dq=Rye+Suffolk+Fines&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=o9NGyNepIi&sig=u2u1xiNuE-JgIfs6UznVWyIPqW4&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA69,M1
Sir John Botetourt, Knt., 1st Lord Botetourt, however, had the
advowson in this place before 1316, when he presented his brother,
Master Roger Botetourt, as rector of Great Bradley, Suffolk. The
advowson thereafter descended in the Botetourt family. See the
http://www.great-bradley.suffolk.gov.uk/Great%20Bradley%20church_files/rectors.htm
I show that Ada, mother of Sir John Botetourt, Knt., was living in
1305–1306, when a settlement was made of the manor of Cranworth,
Norfolk, and property in Wood Rising, Norfolk [see Rye, Short Cal. of
Feet of Fines for Norfolk 2 (1886): 230]. I don't find Ada in records
after this date. If Great Bradley had been her property, she
presumably would have died before 1311, when the manor was settled on
Sir John Botetourt and his wife, Maud.
This is a speculative theory. Please treat it as such.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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