Discussion:
Hawise wife of Laurence de Sanford
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l***@gmail.com
2020-06-30 19:17:44 UTC
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Dear Group:Laurence de Sanford son of John de Sanford and Alice Basset had a wife named Hawise.. There seems to be some confusion as to her identity. She is listed as a Corbett and or a Basset. If a Basset was she a daughter of Philip Bassett Justicier of England? If she was a Corbett is she a daughter of William Corbett?

Regards:
Loren
taf
2020-06-30 20:11:25 UTC
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Post by l***@gmail.com
Dear Group:Laurence de Sanford son of John de Sanford and Alice Basset had a wife named Hawise.. There seems to be some confusion as to her identity. She is listed as a Corbett and or a Basset. If a Basset was she a daughter of Philip Bassett Justicier of England? If she was a Corbett is she a daughter of William Corbett?
This was discussed here back in 2005. There a quote from NEHGR 142:239-241, was posted:

"Also in Glamorgan was the vill of St. Nicholas, where William Corbet gave land in free marriage with Hawise his daughter to Laurence de Saundeforde, according to a charter shown to the Barons of the Treasury in 1254. This William Corbet of Chaddesley was a younger son of Robert Corbet, the fourth baron of Caus (A.E.C., _The Family of Corbet_ [London, 1917], 2:168). For this charter A.E.C. cites Dods. MMS. Communia Roll 7, which seems to be from item 29 in the Dodsworth manuscript in the Bodleian Library listed by Joseph Hunter, _Three Catalogues_ (London 1838), p. 111."

The suggestion that Hawise was a Bassett probably derives from confusion with his mother.

taf
w***@gmail.com
2020-07-02 11:55:46 UTC
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Post by taf
Post by l***@gmail.com
Dear Group:Laurence de Sanford son of John de Sanford and Alice Basset had a wife named Hawise.. There seems to be some confusion as to her identity. She is listed as a Corbett and or a Basset. If a Basset was she a daughter of Philip Bassett Justicier of England? If she was a Corbett is she a daughter of William Corbett?
"Also in Glamorgan was the vill of St. Nicholas, where William Corbet gave land in free marriage with Hawise his daughter to Laurence de Saundeforde, according to a charter shown to the Barons of the Treasury in 1254. This William Corbet of Chaddesley was a younger son of Robert Corbet, the fourth baron of Caus (A.E.C., _The Family of Corbet_ [London, 1917], 2:168). For this charter A.E.C. cites Dods. MMS. Communia Roll 7, which seems to be from item 29 in the Dodsworth manuscript in the Bodleian Library listed by Joseph Hunter, _Three Catalogues_ (London 1838), p. 111."
The suggestion that Hawise was a Bassett probably derives from confusion with his mother.
taf
A.E.C.'s 'The Family of Corbet' is not very reliable. A.E.C. identifies William Corbet of Chaddesley as the nephew of Roger Corbet of Chaddesley, who married Hawise Foliot:

https://archive.org/details/familyofcorbetit02corb/page/n23/mode/2up

William was in fact their son.[1]

Roger Corbet of Chaddesley also held land in Glamorgan and was apparently the son of a Robert Corbet, whose relationship to the lords of Caus is unclear to me:

“There is no reference to any castle at St Nicholas, and discussion of the early tenure and subinfeudation of the lordship has been contradictory and confusing. The suggestion that the lordship was one of the three-and-a-half de Somery fees of Dinas Powys is erroneous. A Robert Corbet was certainly active in the service of Earl Robert, witnessing his charter to St Peter’s, Gloucester, and his treaty with the earl of Hereford, both in the period 1140-1147. Though not proof of a Corbet lordship of St Nicholas, this early presence in Glamorgan is important, for no Corbet is listed in the 1166 returns in the Liber Niger and Liber Rubeus, yet in 1262 William Corbet answers for the three fees of St Nicholas, which were by then all held of him. It seems probable that St Nicholas was in wardship in 1166, and so excluded from the lord of Glamorgan’s returns, for in the Pipe Roll of 1202 Roger Corbet payed 8 marks for an un-named fee to King John, then lord of Glamorgan. As to the subinfeudation of the whole of St Nicholas by 1262, two presumed sub-fees have been treated above. The third was surely centred on St Nicholas Gaer, the presumed Corbet caput of the lordship. William Corbet was not slow to assert his rights after this subinfeudation, for in 1280 he sued Earl Gilbert concerning the wardship and marriage of Adam le Someri, his tenant, presumably the heir to the old Mitdehorguill holding around Coed-y-cwm.”[2]

[1] https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QGspAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22Rogerus+Corbet+attachiatus+fuit+ad+respondendum+Emme%22&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22Rogerus+ponit+loco+suo+Willelmum+Corbet+filium+suum+etc.%22

[2] An Inventory of the Ancient Monuments in Glamorgan, Vol 3. p. 130 (1991)


Will Acton
taf
2020-07-02 16:21:15 UTC
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Post by taf
"Also in Glamorgan was the vill of St. Nicholas, where William Corbet gave land in free marriage with Hawise his daughter to Laurence de Saundeforde, according to a charter shown to the Barons of the Treasury in 1254. This William Corbet of Chaddesley was a younger son of Robert Corbet, the fourth baron of Caus (A.E.C., _The Family of Corbet_ [London, 1917], 2:168). For this charter A.E.C. cites Dods. MMS. Communia Roll 7, which seems to be from item 29 in the Dodsworth manuscript in the Bodleian Library listed by Joseph Hunter, _Three Catalogues_ (London 1838), p. 111."
No, I wouldn't expect it to be reliable, but when interpreting a source like this one has to separate out the individual claims. For William son of the Baron of Caus, all we have is the unsupported statement this is the case, but for the Corbet daughter marrying Sanford, the information is explicitly stated to come from a cited primary document. It could still be in error, but by nature of this citation, it is imbued with a higher level of trust. Of course, better yet would be to trace down the source itself.

taf

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