Discussion:
Seeking info about 1795 heraldy compilation (esp. Hicks, Hickes, Hix, Hyx)
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j***@gmail.com
2018-06-21 12:09:32 UTC
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In pursuit of the history of the legends associated with the ancestry of 17th New England immigrants Robert Hicks and Thomas Hicks, a group of us over at WikiTree have apparently found (so far, anyway) the earliest mention of the claim that there was a 14th century knight banneret named Sir Elias (elsewhere/later Ellis) Hicks, who was the ancestor of later London-based Hickses (and therefore supposedly ancestor of the immigrants-- their ancestry is another topic that I'm not seeking to discuss in this thread). The book is:

Susanna (Dawson) Dobson, Historical anecdotes of heraldry and chivalry: tending to shew the origin of many English and foreign coats of arms, circumstances and customs, Worcester (England):Holl and Brandish, (1795) [p 240 for Elias Hicks:
https://books.google.com/books?id=8SZPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA240 ]

My expertise lies on the New England side of the Atlantic, and I know little about sources such as the above. So I'm turning to you all for your expertise and guidance.

What do you know about this book, its author or its contents? We're trying to work this legend back, just like a genealogy, to find its origins, and this is the earliest found work so far that names the legend.

Its preface leaves much to be desired as to how the author collected these "sprigs" of heraldic information from her garden. She does make reference to a just-published work by Dallaway-- anyone know what that is?

(Sidebar: This same group of volunteers at WikiTree discovered that there actually was a Sir Ellis/Elias Hicks but he was from the 17th century, son of a London scrivener, and leaving no progeny per his found will.)

Thank you for any guidance you can offer us.

Jillaine Smith
co-leader, WikiTree Puritan Great Migration Project
Vance Mead
2018-06-21 12:48:02 UTC
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There was a James Dallaway of Bristol, an 18th century antiquary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dallaway
Post by j***@gmail.com
Its preface leaves much to be desired as to how the author collected these "sprigs" of heraldic information from her garden. She does make reference to a just-published work by Dallaway-- anyone know what that is?
j***@gmail.com
2018-06-21 12:57:49 UTC
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Post by Vance Mead
There was a James Dallaway of Bristol, an 18th century antiquary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dallaway
Thanks, Vance. This is helpful. A read of this entry suggests that the text referenced by Dobson was probably:

Inquiries into the Origin and Progress of the Science of Heraldry in England, with Explanatory Observations on Armorial Ensigns

which was published in 1793 (two years prior) and may be read online here:
https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=A-JBAQAAMAAJ&rdid=book-A-JBAQAAMAAJ&rdot=1
Vance Mead
2018-06-21 13:34:13 UTC
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There's a herald's visitation with the ancestry of Sir Baptist Hicks, going back to John Hicks, of Tetworth, Gloucestershire, who died in 1486.

Page 80
https://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun21macl#page/n95/mode/2up
j***@gmail.com
2018-06-21 14:12:13 UTC
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Post by Vance Mead
There's a herald's visitation with the ancestry of Sir Baptist Hicks, going back to John Hicks, of Tetworth, Gloucestershire, who died in 1486.
Page 80
https://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun21macl#page/n95/mode/2up
Thanks, Vance; I'm familiar with that document. There's actually a dotted line between Robert Hicks (father of Sir Baptist) and Thomas Hicks above him, suggesting either multiple generations in between or a questionable ancestry. The footnote attached to Robert indicates the "official pedigree" starts with Robert. (Whatever that means.)
Peter Howarth
2018-06-21 14:04:32 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
https://books.google.com/books?id=8SZPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA240 ]
My expertise lies on the New England side of the Atlantic, and I know little about sources such as the above. So I'm turning to you all for your expertise and guidance.
What do you know about this book, its author or its contents? We're trying to work this legend back, just like a genealogy, to find its origins, and this is the earliest found work so far that names the legend.
Its preface leaves much to be desired as to how the author collected these "sprigs" of heraldic information from her garden. She does make reference to a just-published work by Dallaway-- anyone know what that is?
(Sidebar: This same group of volunteers at WikiTree discovered that there actually was a Sir Ellis/Elias Hicks but he was from the 17th century, son of a London scrivener, and leaving no progeny per his found will.)
Thank you for any guidance you can offer us.
Jillaine Smith
co-leader, WikiTree Puritan Great Migration Project
Mrs Dobson repeatedly refers in the body of her book to St. Palaye.

There is in the British Library a book entitled
Memoirs of ancient chivalry. To which are added, the anecdotes of the times, from the romance writers and historians of those ages. Translated from the French of Monsieur de St. Palaye, by the translator of the life of Petrarch.
Sainte-Palaye,, M. de La Curne de (Jean-Baptiste de La Curne), 1697-1781.
London, 1784. London : printed for J. Dodsley, Pall-Mall, M.DCC.LXXXIV. [1784] Great Britain England London.

According to the BL catalogue, the translator of the life of Petrarch = Mrs S Dobson.

On pages 14-15 she refers to the story of how Sir James Audley, after the battle of Poitiers, rewarded his esquires not only with the money he received from the king but also with augmentations to their arms based on his arms. The original story comes from Froissart, which she may perhaps have consulted.

She also refers to Camden's Britannia (1577-1607), Treadway Nash's Collections for the history of Worcestershire (2nd edn 1799), and Dugdale's Baronage of England (1675). So she was quite widely read.

With regard to Sir Elias Hicks temp. Edw III, I am unable to confirm her story about his arms. I cannot find any arms for Hicks or its variants at this period. Nor are any arms in the Dictionary of British Arms at all like those described. This is of course not enough to disprove her story, but it makes me 'hae me doots'.

Peter Howarth
j***@gmail.com
2018-06-21 14:17:14 UTC
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Peter,

Thanks, I'll look into these; you all are so much faster at getting "under" a given source. I'm grateful.

The group of us at WikiTree DID find evidence that Ellis/Elias Hicks was knighted, but not by Edward III and not in the 1500s but in 1635...

I'm currently compiling the "genealogy" of the sources, but the "raw data" of our efforts is here for those who are interested (it's a long and windy thread...approach with caution):

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/617264/did-sir-ellis-hicks-exist
Post by Peter Howarth
Mrs Dobson repeatedly refers in the body of her book to St. Palaye.
There is in the British Library a book entitled
Memoirs of ancient chivalry. To which are added, the anecdotes of the times, from the romance writers and historians of those ages. Translated from the French of Monsieur de St. Palaye, by the translator of the life of Petrarch.
Sainte-Palaye,, M. de La Curne de (Jean-Baptiste de La Curne), 1697-1781.
London, 1784. London : printed for J. Dodsley, Pall-Mall, M.DCC.LXXXIV. [1784] Great Britain England London.
According to the BL catalogue, the translator of the life of Petrarch = Mrs S Dobson.
On pages 14-15 she refers to the story of how Sir James Audley, after the battle of Poitiers, rewarded his esquires not only with the money he received from the king but also with augmentations to their arms based on his arms. The original story comes from Froissart, which she may perhaps have consulted.
She also refers to Camden's Britannia (1577-1607), Treadway Nash's Collections for the history of Worcestershire (2nd edn 1799), and Dugdale's Baronage of England (1675). So she was quite widely read.
With regard to Sir Elias Hicks temp. Edw III, I am unable to confirm her story about his arms. I cannot find any arms for Hicks or its variants at this period. Nor are any arms in the Dictionary of British Arms at all like those described. This is of course not enough to disprove her story, but it makes me 'hae me doots'.
Peter Howarth
j***@gmail.com
2018-06-21 14:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Typo: I meant to write 1300s (specifically 1356) not 1500s...
Post by j***@gmail.com
Peter,
Thanks, I'll look into these; you all are so much faster at getting "under" a given source. I'm grateful.
The group of us at WikiTree DID find evidence that Ellis/Elias Hicks was knighted, but not by Edward III and not in the 1500s but in 1635...
https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/617264/did-sir-ellis-hicks-exist
Post by Peter Howarth
Mrs Dobson repeatedly refers in the body of her book to St. Palaye.
There is in the British Library a book entitled
Memoirs of ancient chivalry. To which are added, the anecdotes of the times, from the romance writers and historians of those ages. Translated from the French of Monsieur de St. Palaye, by the translator of the life of Petrarch.
Sainte-Palaye,, M. de La Curne de (Jean-Baptiste de La Curne), 1697-1781.
London, 1784. London : printed for J. Dodsley, Pall-Mall, M.DCC.LXXXIV. [1784] Great Britain England London.
According to the BL catalogue, the translator of the life of Petrarch = Mrs S Dobson.
On pages 14-15 she refers to the story of how Sir James Audley, after the battle of Poitiers, rewarded his esquires not only with the money he received from the king but also with augmentations to their arms based on his arms. The original story comes from Froissart, which she may perhaps have consulted.
She also refers to Camden's Britannia (1577-1607), Treadway Nash's Collections for the history of Worcestershire (2nd edn 1799), and Dugdale's Baronage of England (1675). So she was quite widely read.
With regard to Sir Elias Hicks temp. Edw III, I am unable to confirm her story about his arms. I cannot find any arms for Hicks or its variants at this period. Nor are any arms in the Dictionary of British Arms at all like those described. This is of course not enough to disprove her story, but it makes me 'hae me doots'.
Peter Howarth
j***@gmail.com
2018-06-21 15:14:40 UTC
Permalink
Actually, a better place to see the summary of our results and a list of sources is here:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Hicks-443
Post by j***@gmail.com
Peter,
Thanks, I'll look into these; you all are so much faster at getting "under" a given source. I'm grateful.
The group of us at WikiTree DID find evidence that Ellis/Elias Hicks was knighted, but not by Edward III and not in the 1500s but in 1635...
https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/617264/did-sir-ellis-hicks-exist
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