Discussion:
Apparent sister Grizell (Goldesborough) Willoughby and Lucy (Goldesborough) Bellingham of New England
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Johnny Brananas
2021-08-04 16:29:58 UTC
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_Memorials of the Goldesborough Family_ abstracts a 1668 legal proceeding in England in which linen-draper "Capill Goldesbrough, Gent.," the defendant, spoke of his sister "Mrs. Grizzell Goldesbrough." Also, he mentioned that "[T]he said Grizell was since married and had gone to New England."

https://archive.org/details/memorialsofgolde00gold/page/156/mode/2up?q=capill

Surely this Grizzell Goldsborough who went to New England must be the wife of Mass. Deputy Governor Francis Willoughby's son Rev. Jonathan Willoughby (b. ca. 1635), who is said to have married 1661 in England to "Grizzle Goldesborough, .... daughter of John and Anne Goldesborough of Godmanchester, Huntingdonshire," and returned briefly to New England.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Noyes_Gilman_Ancestry/YYNLAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=mrs+grizzel+wethersfield&pg=PA146&printsec=frontcover

A pedigree chart in the Goldesborough Memorials (p. 147 -149) shows Capell and his sister Grizell to be children of John Goldesborough of Godmanchester, Hunts., who died March 1639/40, by his wife "Anne, natural dau. of Sir Robert Payne, Kt."

Their father John Goldsborough is this Member of Parliament:

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/goldsborough-john-1597-1640

The pedigree chart shows Capell and Grizzle with an older sister Lucy Goldesborough. I suggest she is the Lucy Goldsborough said to have married Samuel Bellingham, son of Mass. Deputy Governor Richard Bellingham. This match is shown in A. L. Maddison's _Lincolnshire Pedigrees_ and repeated in the _Great Migration_ sketch of Bellingham:

https://books.google.com/books?id=we8xAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=%22samuel+bellingham%22+pedigrees+lucia+118&source=bl&ots=9sDYFxYLSM&sig=ACfU3U2mwbu5evoDr_w24yLaexjkoHSjyA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs077l45fyAhVQa80KHZPyCMQQ6AF6BAgCEAM#v=onepage&q=%22samuel%20bellingham%22%20pedigrees%20lucia%20118&f=false

I'm unsure about any descendants of these women. After a brief period spent preaching in Connecticut, the Rev. Jonathan Willoughby returned to England by about 1670, going to a position at Reepham, Lincolnshire, per Oxford University records (he was "incorporated" at Oxford based on attendance at Harvard College). This is also confirmed by Jonathan and Grizzell Willoughby having a few children at Reepham in the 1670s per IGI, including one called Goldisborough Willoughby.
Johnny Brananas
2021-08-04 17:49:37 UTC
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These apparent sisters had several lines to Edward III, assuming the "natural daughter" of Sir Robert Payne was by his wife Elizabeth Rotheram. One such is ...

Edward III
John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = Blanche of Lancaster
Elizabeth = John de Holand, Earl of Huntingdon and Duke of Exeter
Constance de Holand = Sir John Grey, K.G.
Edmund Grey, Earl of Kent = Katherine Percy
Anne Grey = John, 8th Lord Grey of Wilton
Katherine Grey = Sir Thomas Rotheram
Sir Thomas Rotheram = Elizabeth St. John
Thomas Rotheram = Alice Wellsford
George Rotheram = Jane Smyth
Elizabeth Rotheram = Sir Robert Payne
Anne Payne = John Goldesborough
Grizell, Lucy
Will Johnson
2021-08-04 21:52:20 UTC
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There are baptisms at Godmanchester, co Hunt (Batch C13541-1 wj)
for Capell 19 May 1634 and his sister Grizzell 12 Aug 1635
Will Johnson
2021-08-04 22:00:25 UTC
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By the way, from this lawsuit and further, we can know that Lucy was 21 and more in 1646
In that year, the eldest child of John, named Anthony, stated that there were yet only four half-siblings under 21
Will Johnson
2021-08-04 22:12:53 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
By the way, from this lawsuit and further, we can know that Lucy was 21 and more in 1646
In that year, the eldest child of John, named Anthony, stated that there were yet only four half-siblings under 21
The Vis Hunt doesn't claim that Anne was illegitimate, it just has her among his children (1613)

https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun00charrich/page/63/mode/1up?q=payne
Will Johnson
2021-08-04 22:28:30 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
Post by Will Johnson
By the way, from this lawsuit and further, we can know that Lucy was 21 and more in 1646
In that year, the eldest child of John, named Anthony, stated that there were yet only four half-siblings under 21
The Vis Hunt doesn't claim that Anne was illegitimate, it just has her among his children (1613)
https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun00charrich/page/63/mode/1up?q=payne
This Vis Hunt gives us the names and apparent order of seven children living in 1613
The parish register of Southoe has them all starting with Mary 13 Aug 1598 and ending with George 4 Sep 1611

I suggest that "Anne" is that one called Agnes, since in this time period Anneys, Agnes, Anne, were all the same name. 1 Dec 1600 Southoe
JBrand
2021-08-04 22:39:04 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
Post by Will Johnson
Post by Will Johnson
By the way, from this lawsuit and further, we can know that Lucy was 21 and more in 1646
In that year, the eldest child of John, named Anthony, stated that there were yet only four half-siblings under 21
The Vis Hunt doesn't claim that Anne was illegitimate, it just has her among his children (1613)
https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun00charrich/page/63/mode/1up?q=payne
This Vis Hunt gives us the names and apparent order of seven children living in 1613
The parish register of Southoe has them all starting with Mary 13 Aug 1598 and ending with George 4 Sep 1611
I suggest that "Anne" is that one called Agnes, since in this time period Anneys, Agnes, Anne, were all the same name. 1 Dec 1600 Southoe
As far as Southoe, note that the HOP sketch of Sir Robert claims his brother was the vicar of Southoe (John Payne):

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/payne-sir-robert-1573-1631

However, checking the wills of Sir Robert's parents, Robert and Marie (? Waterton) Payne, doesn't seem to actually verify that statement. Marie's will mentions the vicar of Southoe without calling him "my son," and Robert's will just mentions his "Cozen" John Payne, who may or may not be the minister. Although someone migth want to verify my readings of the wills.

Marie Payne's will does mention her son Robert's daughter Anne.
Will Johnson
2021-08-04 22:46:36 UTC
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Post by JBrand
Post by Will Johnson
Post by Will Johnson
Post by Will Johnson
By the way, from this lawsuit and further, we can know that Lucy was 21 and more in 1646
In that year, the eldest child of John, named Anthony, stated that there were yet only four half-siblings under 21
The Vis Hunt doesn't claim that Anne was illegitimate, it just has her among his children (1613)
https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun00charrich/page/63/mode/1up?q=payne
This Vis Hunt gives us the names and apparent order of seven children living in 1613
The parish register of Southoe has them all starting with Mary 13 Aug 1598 and ending with George 4 Sep 1611
I suggest that "Anne" is that one called Agnes, since in this time period Anneys, Agnes, Anne, were all the same name. 1 Dec 1600 Southoe
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/payne-sir-robert-1573-1631
However, checking the wills of Sir Robert's parents, Robert and Marie (? Waterton) Payne, doesn't seem to actually verify that statement. Marie's will mentions the vicar of Southoe without calling him "my son," and Robert's will just mentions his "Cozen" John Payne, who may or may not be the minister. Although someone migth want to verify my readings of the wills.
Marie Payne's will does mention her son Robert's daughter Anne.
What is the date that Marie wrote her will?
JBrand
2021-08-04 22:53:01 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
Post by JBrand
Post by Will Johnson
Post by Will Johnson
Post by Will Johnson
By the way, from this lawsuit and further, we can know that Lucy was 21 and more in 1646
In that year, the eldest child of John, named Anthony, stated that there were yet only four half-siblings under 21
The Vis Hunt doesn't claim that Anne was illegitimate, it just has her among his children (1613)
https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun00charrich/page/63/mode/1up?q=payne
This Vis Hunt gives us the names and apparent order of seven children living in 1613
The parish register of Southoe has them all starting with Mary 13 Aug 1598 and ending with George 4 Sep 1611
I suggest that "Anne" is that one called Agnes, since in this time period Anneys, Agnes, Anne, were all the same name. 1 Dec 1600 Southoe
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/payne-sir-robert-1573-1631
However, checking the wills of Sir Robert's parents, Robert and Marie (? Waterton) Payne, doesn't seem to actually verify that statement. Marie's will mentions the vicar of Southoe without calling him "my son," and Robert's will just mentions his "Cozen" John Payne, who may or may not be the minister. Although someone migth want to verify my readings of the wills.
Marie Payne's will does mention her son Robert's daughter Anne.
What is the date that Marie wrote her will?
October 29, 1st James I.
Will Johnson
2021-08-04 22:58:51 UTC
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This HOP article also identifies the wife of Sir James Evington, whom I've known was called Jana, for about twenty years now... as Jana Payne, the elder sister of this Anne mother of Capell and Grizzell
Will Johnson
2021-08-04 23:05:57 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
This HOP article also identifies the wife of Sir James Evington, whom I've known was called Jana, for about twenty years now... as Jana Payne, the elder sister of this Anne mother of Capell and Grizzell
Now that we have the baptism of Jana 5 Dec 1599 Southoe, co Hunt
I am more confident about identifying her husband James Evington as that one baptised
10 Sep 1592 St Augustine, London (Batch C02241-2 wj)
JBrand
2021-08-04 23:12:46 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
Post by Will Johnson
This HOP article also identifies the wife of Sir James Evington, whom I've known was called Jana, for about twenty years now... as Jana Payne, the elder sister of this Anne mother of Capell and Grizzell
Now that we have the baptism of Jana 5 Dec 1599 Southoe, co Hunt
I am more confident about identifying her husband James Evington as that one baptised
10 Sep 1592 St Augustine, London (Batch C02241-2 wj)
Yes, Evington was called sometime "of Southoe, Hunts."

https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Register_of_the_Scholars_Admitted_Into/djVAAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22james+evington%22&pg=PA49&printsec=frontcover
Will Johnson
2021-08-04 23:32:49 UTC
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And we can now address in the affirmative that Grizzell was the wife of
Jonathan /Willoughby/ of St Andrew Undershaft 1661; Gent 1661
as there is a license to marry dated 3 Dec 1661
"he abt 25, she abt 25"
"with consent of her mother ANNE"
Johnny Brananas
2021-08-05 13:50:02 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
And we can now address in the affirmative that Grizzell was the wife of
Jonathan /Willoughby/ of St Andrew Undershaft 1661; Gent 1661
as there is a license to marry dated 3 Dec 1661
"he abt 25, she abt 25"
"with consent of her mother ANNE"
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Allegations_for_Marriage_Licences_Issued/jKwKAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=jonathan+willoughby+25&pg=PA288&printsec=frontcover

Right, this item was known to Charles Phelps Noyes, the writer of _Noyes-Gilman Ancestry_. However, the Noyes-Gilman book appeared in 1907, long before the publication of _Memorials of the Goldesborough Family_ (1930).

The two wills I mentioned are:

Reference: PROB 11/101/363
Description: Will of Robert Payne, Grocer of London
Date: 23 May 1603

Reference: PROB 11/104/274
Description: Will of Marie Payne or Paine, Widow of Christchurch, City of London
Date: 03 July 1604
Johnny Brananas
2021-08-05 21:22:18 UTC
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Samuel Bellingham's involvement in a suit, 16 Charles II, about the remainders on some property of the Backhouses (his mother's family):

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=osu.32437121667667&view=1up&seq=52&skin=2021&q1=%22sam%20bellingham%22
Johnny Brananas
2021-08-06 14:25:11 UTC
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I wonder about the identity of Marie Waterton shown as wife of Robert Payne (the grocer) in the Vis. Hunts. Note that the Waterton Payne shown in the next generation of the pedigree is not actually a descendant of Marie. This makes me wonder about the pedigree.

The HOP biography of Sir Richard Gargrave (son of Anne Waterton) states Sir Richard and his brother John Gargrave "borrowed from Sir Robert Payne in November 1606, and as late as 1617 Gargrave still owed his brother £700."

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/gargrave-sir-richard-15756-1638
Johnny Brananas
2021-08-06 19:09:51 UTC
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I wonder about the identity of Marie Waterton shown as wife of Robert Payne (the grocer) in the Vis. Hunts. Note that the Waterton Payne shown in the next generation of the pedigree is not actually a descendant of Marie. This makes me wonder about the pedigree.
The HOP biography of Sir Richard Gargrave (son of Anne Waterton) states Sir Richard and his brother John Gargrave "borrowed from Sir Robert Payne in November 1606, and as late as 1617 Gargrave still owed his brother £700."
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/gargrave-sir-richard-15756-1638
[#]1418 1 Sept. 1580. Licence for Coton Gargrave to alienate the manors of Nostell, Wintersett and Santingley, Crofton, West Hardwick, Wrenthorpe, Hemsworth and Kingsley, Yorkshire, (lands described there), and the advowson of Hemsworth, to Henry Hickford and his heirs and Robert Payne, grocer ... (Cal. Patent Rolls).

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Calendar_of_the_Patent_Rolls_Preserved_i/begLAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22robert+payne%22+gargrave&dq=%22robert+payne%22+gargrave&printsec=frontcover
Will Johnson
2021-08-07 12:40:44 UTC
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[#]1418 1 Sept. 1580. Licence for Coton Gargrave to alienate the manors of Nostell, Wintersett and Santingley, Crofton, West Hardwick, Wrenthorpe, Hemsworth and Kingsley, Yorkshire, (lands described there), and the advowson of Hemsworth, to Henry Hickford and his heirs and Robert Payne, grocer ... (Cal. Patent Rolls).
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Calendar_of_the_Patent_Rolls_Preserved_i/begLAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22robert+payne%22+gargrave&dq=%22robert+payne%22+gargrave&printsec=frontcover
The families must have remained pretty tight as Anne (Payne) Goldesborough, named one of her sons Cotton bap 30 May 1637 Godmanchester, co Hunt (Batch C13541-1 wj)
Will Johnson
2021-08-07 13:25:58 UTC
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I had not previously noticed until this thread that Thomas Gargrave, son and heir of Cotton, had married that Catherine Wentworth who is an E3#9 (nine descending from Edward III) and a Cecil8. They had three daughters only, but the two eldest died as infants leaving only Prudence who married one Richard Berry, a physician to Cromwell and apparently vanished into obscurity sometime after 1630

This Thomas Gargrave was hanged for murder 16 Jun 1594 and the entail of the estates meant they went to his half-brother Richard Gargrave who died penniless and forgotten 1638 being buried at St Bartholomew the Great. So a great family goes to ruin :)
JBrand
2021-08-07 13:30:33 UTC
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I had not previously noticed until this thread that Thomas Gargrave, son and heir of Cotton, had married that Catherine Wentworth who is an E3#9 (nine descending from Edward III) and a Cecil8. They had three daughters only, but the two eldest died as infants leaving only Prudence who married one Richard Berry, a physician to Cromwell and apparently vanished into obscurity sometime after 1630
This Thomas Gargrave was hanged for murder 16 Jun 1594 and the entail of the estates meant they went to his half-brother Richard Gargrave who died penniless and forgotten 1638 being buried at St Bartholomew the Great. So a great family goes to ruin :)
The Payne family themselves seem to have been ruined into obscurity by debt around the same time.
John Higgins
2021-08-07 20:32:25 UTC
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I had not previously noticed until this thread that Thomas Gargrave, son and heir of Cotton, had married that Catherine Wentworth who is an E3#9 (nine descending from Edward III) and a Cecil8. They had three daughters only, but the two eldest died as infants leaving only Prudence who married one Richard Berry, a physician to Cromwell and apparently vanished into obscurity sometime after 1630
This Thomas Gargrave was hanged for murder 16 Jun 1594 and the entail of the estates meant they went to his half-brother Richard Gargrave who died penniless and forgotten 1638 being buried at St Bartholomew the Great. So a great family goes to ruin :)
I show Catherine Wentworth, wife of Thomas Gargrave, as having 4 descents from Edward III. That is the same number of such descents that the Genealogics database shows for her. All four of the descents are via her mother Margaret Gascoigne. How did you arrive at 9 Edward descents for Catherine Wentworth?
JBrand
2021-08-07 21:29:35 UTC
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I had not previously noticed until this thread that Thomas Gargrave, son and heir of Cotton, had married that Catherine Wentworth who is an E3#9 (nine descending from Edward III) and a Cecil8. They had three daughters only, but the two eldest died as infants leaving only Prudence who married one Richard Berry, a physician to Cromwell and apparently vanished into obscurity sometime after 1630
This Thomas Gargrave was hanged for murder 16 Jun 1594 and the entail of the estates meant they went to his half-brother Richard Gargrave who died penniless and forgotten 1638 being buried at St Bartholomew the Great. So a great family goes to ruin :)
I show Catherine Wentworth, wife of Thomas Gargrave, as having 4 descents from Edward III. That is the same number of such descents that the Genealogics database shows for her. All four of the descents are via her mother Margaret Gascoigne. How did you arrive at 9 Edward descents for Catherine Wentworth?
I assume 9 means the number of generations in one of those descents (presumably the one with the fewest steps).
John Higgins
2021-08-08 04:01:57 UTC
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Post by JBrand
I had not previously noticed until this thread that Thomas Gargrave, son and heir of Cotton, had married that Catherine Wentworth who is an E3#9 (nine descending from Edward III) and a Cecil8. They had three daughters only, but the two eldest died as infants leaving only Prudence who married one Richard Berry, a physician to Cromwell and apparently vanished into obscurity sometime after 1630
This Thomas Gargrave was hanged for murder 16 Jun 1594 and the entail of the estates meant they went to his half-brother Richard Gargrave who died penniless and forgotten 1638 being buried at St Bartholomew the Great. So a great family goes to ruin :)
I show Catherine Wentworth, wife of Thomas Gargrave, as having 4 descents from Edward III. That is the same number of such descents that the Genealogics database shows for her. All four of the descents are via her mother Margaret Gascoigne. How did you arrive at 9 Edward descents for Catherine Wentworth?
I assume 9 means the number of generations in one of those descents (presumably the one with the fewest steps).
Good point. I think you're right, as that's the way Will measures his Cecil connections (a la "Six Degrees of Separation").

Personally I'm interested in counting the number of descent, rather than measuring the length of any descent. "Each toh is own"....
Will Johnson
2021-08-08 20:17:38 UTC
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Yes nine generations in the shortest descent.

I find that many people will ask "who is my closest royal", in terms of generations
So that's my goal for that part of my database.
JBrand
2021-08-07 13:28:57 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
[#]1418 1 Sept. 1580. Licence for Coton Gargrave to alienate the manors of Nostell, Wintersett and Santingley, Crofton, West Hardwick, Wrenthorpe, Hemsworth and Kingsley, Yorkshire, (lands described there), and the advowson of Hemsworth, to Henry Hickford and his heirs and Robert Payne, grocer ... (Cal. Patent Rolls).
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Calendar_of_the_Patent_Rolls_Preserved_i/begLAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22robert+payne%22+gargrave&dq=%22robert+payne%22+gargrave&printsec=frontcover
The families must have remained pretty tight as Anne (Payne) Goldesborough, named one of her sons Cotton bap 30 May 1637 Godmanchester, co Hunt (Batch C13541-1 wj)
Interesting. I had not noticed the existence of this Cotton Goldesborough.
Johnny Brananas
2021-08-10 14:20:51 UTC
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Post by Johnny Brananas
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=osu.32437121667667&view=1up&seq=52&skin=2021&q1=%22sam%20bellingham%22
Lady Russell's book on _Swallowfield and Its Owners_ mentions Sam Bellingham's mother as the daughter of Samuel Backhouse: "3. Elizabeth, married Bellingham of Bromley, co. Lincoln." Bromley should be "Bromby," I think.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=dul1.ark:/13960/t6m10nh7b&view=1up&seq=168&skin=2021&q1=bromley

Sam Bellingham was the Commissioner for Berkshire around 1655, during the Interregnum, possibly because of the Backhouse ties to Berkshire.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015061336072&view=1up&seq=175&skin=2021&q1=bellingham

He is mentioned as "of Reading" [Berkshire] in early 1654/55:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026552&view=1up&seq=755&skin=2021&q1=%22bellingham%20of%20reading%22
Johnny Brananas
2021-08-11 14:39:05 UTC
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Post by Johnny Brananas
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=osu.32437121667667&view=1up&seq=52&skin=2021&q1=%22sam%20bellingham%22
Lady Russell's book on _Swallowfield and Its Owners_ mentions Sam Bellingham's mother as the daughter of Samuel Backhouse: "3. Elizabeth, married Bellingham of Bromley, co. Lincoln." Bromley should be "Bromby," I think.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=dul1.ark:/13960/t6m10nh7b&view=1up&seq=168&skin=2021&q1=bromley
Sam Bellingham was the Commissioner for Berkshire around 1655, during the Interregnum, possibly because of the Backhouse ties to Berkshire.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015061336072&view=1up&seq=175&skin=2021&q1=bellingham
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026552&view=1up&seq=755&skin=2021&q1=%22bellingham%20of%20reading%22
In June 1657, Jonathan Willoughby was incorporated at Oxford University "... per 3 annos in Academia Cant. in Nova Anglia studuit."

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044012480802&view=1up&seq=333&skin=2021&q1=jonathan%20willoughby
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