Discussion:
Thirteenth Century Plea Records - A Question on Form
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Mark Byington
2019-12-21 04:14:41 UTC
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Dear All,

This may be a long shot, but I wonder if any members can shed some light on the meaning of part of a mid-thirteenth-century Yorkshire plea that takes the following form:

“Willelmus quem Walterus vocavit ad warrantum versus Ricardum et Agnetem uxorem ejus de placito terre per Johannem filium Alani.”

(Please excuse any grammar errors – I am relatively new to Latin and Latin manuscript transcription. I’ve simplified the names in the text to make this hopefully more clear.)

In a series of plea records, Walter counters claims made by Agnes regarding land inherited from her brother, and to this end Walter called his brother William to warrant, which brings us to the present record. My question is: what role is John playing here, as he (and his father) have not previously appeared in this series of records. This is a case of my knowing what the text says but not seeing what it means in legal and formal context (what does the “per” indicate here?). Is John appearing in William’s place? Is William making statement on behalf of John? I have yet to locate any subsequent records to indicate the result of this plea, but I am still searching.

Any help would be appreciated. This relates to a problem I have been working on for a while, and the solution may hinge on John’s role here.

Thanks,

Mark Byington
Vance Mead
2019-12-21 11:55:12 UTC
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It's called vouch to warranty, but not sure I can explain it. There's an explanation below, but it doesn't shed much light on the issue.



https://books.google.fi/books?id=GWZZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PP624&lpg=PP624&dq=%22vouch+to+warranty%22+tenant&source=bl&ots=_Auk6NwQS7&sig=ACfU3U0VYBTCRXmVosP3lfzatM47R-OQag&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjU7IXT1sbmAhXa4KYKHaVcBNYQ6AEwAHoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22vouch%20to%20warranty%22%20tenant&f=false
Mark Byington
2019-12-22 21:21:21 UTC
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Thanks for the link, which is helpful. I am mostly curious as to why John is mentioned here, as it seems that the person called to warrant provided the warranty via John rather than on his own, but I am not certain. Also, I would be interested in the actual process of providing such warranty in cases where rights are called into question. I have seen cases in which descendants are called upon to warrant deeds that their ancestors issued, and the inclusion of text stating that "I and my descendants will forever warrant" terms of a deed is certainly very common, though I think it is relatively rare that descendants are actually placed in a position to warrant terms (I may be wrong on that, as I am basing this on my limited experience with deeds and plea records). I would appreciate it if those who have a better understanding of such things would shed some light on this.

Best,

Mark
Vance Mead
2019-12-23 05:46:01 UTC
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Warranty of Charter continued to be used at least into the 16th century. This might explain it a bit better.

https://books.google.fi/books?id=PNQgVoT2_aQC&pg=PA331&lpg=PA331&dq=%22warranty+of+charter%22&source=bl&ots=A6rnSX1ygU&sig=ACfU3U3-ENWaN1ZI468nauIi2aN7Quk8wA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjFrvDlh8vmAhWb7aYKHeW-CboQ6AEwAHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22warranty%20of%20charter%22&f=false
Post by Mark Byington
Thanks for the link, which is helpful. I am mostly curious as to why John is mentioned here, as it seems that the person called to warrant provided the warranty via John rather than on his own, but I am not certain. Also, I would be interested in the actual process of providing such warranty in cases where rights are called into question. I have seen cases in which descendants are called upon to warrant deeds that their ancestors issued, and the inclusion of text stating that "I and my descendants will forever warrant" terms of a deed is certainly very common, though I think it is relatively rare that descendants are actually placed in a position to warrant terms (I may be wrong on that, as I am basing this on my limited experience with deeds and plea records). I would appreciate it if those who have a better understanding of such things would shed some light on this.
Best,
Mark
Matt Tompkins
2019-12-30 15:45:59 UTC
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Post by Mark Byington
Dear All,
“Willelmus quem Walterus vocavit ad warrantum versus Ricardum et Agnetem uxorem ejus de placito terre per Johannem filium Alani.”
(Please excuse any grammar errors – I am relatively new to Latin and Latin manuscript transcription. I’ve simplified the names in the text to make this hopefully more clear.)
In a series of plea records, Walter counters claims made by Agnes regarding land inherited from her brother, and to this end Walter called his brother William to warrant, which brings us to the present record. My question is: what role is John playing here, as he (and his father) have not previously appeared in this series of records. This is a case of my knowing what the text says but not seeing what it means in legal and formal context (what does the “per” indicate here?). Is John appearing in William’s place? Is William making statement on behalf of John? I have yet to locate any subsequent records to indicate the result of this plea, but I am still searching.
Does that passage come from the Surtees Society's edition of 'Three Early Asize Rolls from the County of Northumberland'? if so, could you supply the page number where it appears?
Post by Mark Byington
Thanks,
Mark Byington
Mark Byington
2020-01-04 19:15:25 UTC
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The passage is only an example I made to show the form of a number of records I have found of that sort from the reign of Henry III. They are from photos I have of original manuscripts from Yorkshire Eyres. I have since noticed that some of them at least come from a collection of essoins, so I now suspect that the "per" statement just indicates the person who notified the court that the person actually called to warrant was not able to appear, though this is just a guess. I'm still trying to get a feel for what the fine detail in such records actually means.
Thanks, Mark.

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