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Possible descent from Charlemagne - want to verify
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Thomas Raskin
2021-09-11 18:14:24 UTC
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I recently discovered that my great grandfather, born in Mazowieckie province, Poland, had German ancestry through his mother. Her family first settled in Łódź province from Germany in the early 19th century. I found several trees on Ancestry.com and Geneanet which trace my great great grandmother's line (her maiden name was Dyngiel) through the Kleinholtz, Bast, Dhom, Rheim, von der Heyden, von Gymnich, and other families to Henry II of Nassau, who seems to be a descendant of Charlemagne. These trees have dates and places, but I have not seen, so far, any primary sources for them. Some time ago, there was a post in this group which mentioned a number of sites which could potentially be used to verify some medieval lines, for example Genealogics.org. Thanks!
joseph cook
2021-09-11 19:32:41 UTC
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I recently discovered that my great grandfather, born in Mazowieckie province, Poland, had German ancestry through his mother. Her family first settled in Łódź province from Germany in the early 19th century. I found several trees on Ancestry.com and Geneanet which trace my great great grandmother's line (her maiden name was Dyngiel) through the Kleinholtz, Bast, Dhom, Rheim, von der Heyden, von Gymnich, and other families to Henry II of Nassau, who seems to be a descendant of Charlemagne. These trees have dates and places, but I have not seen, so far, any primary sources for them. Some time ago, there was a post in this group which mentioned a number of sites which could potentially be used to verify some medieval lines, for example Genealogics.org. Thanks!
Poland and the areas of eastern Germany were a very class static society; still living under feudalism and serfdom into the 1800s. I would expect if his line can be traced through and before the thirty year war that he must have been especially prominent. Even titled folks of the lower nobility typically were of little note with few records through the 16th and 17th century wars and displacements, and few reliable records tying them back to earlier generations.

If the line was especially notable, you may find records of them in ES or genealogics.org or the roglo database. Although research in german langugage records is more likely. If ancestry.com has these trees but without very detailed sources and biographies, they are unfortunately, most likely junk. But I wish you best of luck finding out whatever information on your ancestors you can, notable or not.

--Joe C
TJR
2021-09-11 20:09:04 UTC
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I recently discovered that my great grandfather, born in Mazowieckie province, Poland, had German ancestry through his mother. Her family first settled in Łódź province from Germany in the early 19th century. I found several trees on Ancestry.com and Geneanet which trace my great great grandmother's line (her maiden name was Dyngiel) through the Kleinholtz, Bast, Dhom, Rheim, von der Heyden, von Gymnich, and other families to Henry II of Nassau, who seems to be a descendant of Charlemagne. These trees have dates and places, but I have not seen, so far, any primary sources for them. Some time ago, there was a post in this group which mentioned a number of sites which could potentially be used to verify some medieval lines, for example Genealogics.org. Thanks!
Poland and the areas of eastern Germany were a very class static society; still living under feudalism and serfdom into the 1800s. I would expect if his line can be traced through and before the thirty year war that he must have been especially prominent. Even titled folks of the lower nobility typically were of little note with few records through the 16th and 17th century wars and displacements, and few reliable records tying them back to earlier generations.
If the line was especially notable, you may find records of them in ES or genealogics.org or the roglo database. Although research in german langugage records is more likely. If ancestry.com has these trees but without very detailed sources and biographies, they are unfortunately, most likely junk. But I wish you best of luck finding out whatever information on your ancestors you can, notable or not.
--Joe C
Hi Joe, thank you! I found a link to the roglo database, but am not familiar with "ES". Thanks, Tom
joseph cook
2021-09-11 21:11:52 UTC
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Hi Joe, thank you! I found a link to the roglo database, but am not familiar with "ES". Thanks, Tom
More info here. Not available online as far as I know:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europ%C3%A4ische_Stammtafeln
TJR
2021-09-11 22:29:09 UTC
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Post by joseph cook
Hi Joe, thank you! I found a link to the roglo database, but am not familiar with "ES". Thanks, Tom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europ%C3%A4ische_Stammtafeln
Joe, thanks again! John P. DuLong (cited in the Wikipedia article) provided a link to an online index of the main subjects of Europäische Stammtafeln compiled by the publisher: http%3A//www.klostermann.de/stamm/schw_reg.htm
TJR
2021-09-11 22:30:30 UTC
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Post by joseph cook
Hi Joe, thank you! I found a link to the roglo database, but am not familiar with "ES". Thanks, Tom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europ%C3%A4ische_Stammtafeln
Joe, thanks again! John P. DuLong (cited in the Wikipedia article) provided a link to an online index of the main subjects of Europäische Stammtafeln compiled by the publisher: http://www.klostermann.de/stamm/schw_reg.htm
John Higgins
2021-09-11 23:25:41 UTC
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Post by joseph cook
Hi Joe, thank you! I found a link to the roglo database, but am not familiar with "ES". Thanks, Tom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europ%C3%A4ische_Stammtafeln
Of the surnames that are mentioned in the original post, only Nassau and Gymnich are covered in Europäische Stammtafeln. If you can provide specifics, I can check out the Gymnich tables in ESNF.
Peter Stewart
2021-09-15 23:23:29 UTC
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Post by Thomas Raskin
I recently discovered that my great grandfather, born in Mazowieckie province, Poland, had German ancestry through his mother. Her family first settled in Łódź province from Germany in the early 19th century. I found several trees on Ancestry.com and Geneanet which trace my great great grandmother's line (her maiden name was Dyngiel) through the Kleinholtz, Bast, Dhom, Rheim, von der Heyden, von Gymnich, and other families to Henry II of Nassau, who seems to be a descendant of Charlemagne. These trees have dates and places, but I have not seen, so far, any primary sources for them. Some time ago, there was a post in this group which mentioned a number of sites which could potentially be used to verify some medieval lines, for example Genealogics.org. Thanks!
I'm not sure what is meant by "Henry II of Nassau ... seems to be a
descendant of Charlemagne", but assuming that "seems to be" is a way of
saying "may be" then it is correct.

The early generations of the Nassau lineage are the subject of perpetual
guesswork. As this was the male line of the royal family of the
Netherlands, much ink flowed over it in the 19th and century and later.
Henry II's father Walram I is actually the first member of the line from
whom descent can be fully proved from reliable sources. Leo van de Pas
in Genealogics followed a reconstruction by Isenburg as reprinted in the
1975 revision of the first /Europäische Stammtafeln/ series - this may
have been among Leo's earliest work, and he evidently did not get round
to checking it against the more recent version by Schwennicke in /neue
Folge/ vol. I.1 (1998) where the conjectural parentage of Walram I is
indicated by a broken line.

A documented descent from Charlemagne to Henry II depends on whether or
not Walram I's paternal grandmother was actually Beatrix of Limburg, and
however probable this seems it remains uncertain.

Peter Stewart

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