Discussion:
macDowell vs macSomhairle
(too old to reply)
M.Sjostrom
2009-01-12 19:16:24 UTC
Permalink
Once upon a time
(actually, quite recently)
I read of Clan Donald dna project elaborations, that the senior line of macSomhairle (= descendants of kinglet Dubghgall of south Hebrides) is not easily identified from Dougall/Dowell y-dna test results, which *mostly* (but not apparently as to all Dougalls) differ from the y dna of Clan Donald chieftain branches.

Dubhgall, son of Somhairle, presumably was his legitimate son and born of his wife Raghnailt inghen Amhlaibh, that's because the Mann population in c1155 invited the boy Dubhgall to be their king in place of the embattled Orry IV (who was thusly Dubhgall's maternal half-uncle). That choice of the Manx population also speaks for Dubhgall being eldest of queen Raghnailt's sons. [If the son Raghnaill, forefather of the Clan Donald, were also queen Raghnailt's son -as is also very presuumable- then Ragnaill would have been a younger son... and this seniority is also supported by the generational chronology of the two lineages, Dubhgall's lineage appearing senior.
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_thread/thread/5d214f56648f489a/17bf74523b7a1a84?#17bf74523b7a1a84
]


What sort of Dougalls/Dowells have been tested ?

Since there clearly exists two different stem clans of the name Dowell/Dougall,

[namely (1) the clans which claim the heritage of kinglet Fearchar/Fergus, lord of Gallobha/Galloway, and (2) those Dougall clans which continue the somhairle tradition of Somhairle's eldest legitimate son Dubhgal]

would the necessary explanation be that so many of those non-matches actually would belong to the other, Gallobha, lineage ???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacDowall
presents info on tradition of kinglet Fearchar of Gallobha descent clan(s), who were basically Lowlands.
If their paper-trailed agnatic descendants show a different y dna than Donalds of somhairle lineage, then we would know -with some good likelihood- that Fearchar was not an agnate of Somhairle.

Somhairle lived in mid-1100s, and married Raghnailt inghean Amhlaibh, daughter of king Amhlaibh of Mann seemingly by his (first) wife, Ingeborg of Orkney.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled of Argyle

Fearchar lived in first half of 1100s, and gave (in my estimate, in 1130s) his daughter Afraig to marriage (in my view, later marriage, after Ingeborg deceased) to the selfsame king Amhlaibh of Mann.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergus_of_Galloway
Although some -in my understanding, much later- concoctions would make Fearchar of Gallobha as cousin of Somhairle, that's almost certainly totally unwarranted: Fearchar's roots seem not to be known - he appeared as sorta soldier of fortune.... Besides, the ancient notion of him being of low birth (at least from from father's side), somewhat speaks against him being born to the semi-royal lineage of Argyle (Somhairle roots).
Fearchar (who died in c1161) had known, mormaer-level male-line descendants until 1250s, i.e some four male generations - during that long lineage in medieval circumstances, some illegitimate offshoot agnatic branches could very well be started. Whether Dowells of that southern clan in some part are male-line descendants, is not ascertainable I think.

These marriages have nothing to do with having agnatic descent. They simply show that known early chieftains of these two lineages were in same culture, social class and circles, as well as lived at fairly same years. They were -afaik- not mentioned then to be very close relatives, except these marriages which made them sorta in-laws with each other.

----

What do the Dowell/Dougall y dna tests actually show ?? Which sort of ethnic background, for either of these two lineages ?

are there Dougalls whose y dna actually matches with the y dna of Clan Donald chieftain lines ?

Frome some correspondent, I got to understand that something like two samples (i.e, with Dougall surname) are almost perfect matches (= agnates) with Donald chieftains y dna.
That result would presumably mean that a somewhat smallish number of male lines still survive in descent from kinglet Dubhgall. That these are not Gallobha Dowells, but are Argyle-Lorn Dougalls.
Likeliest is that they come from some illegitimate or minor branch, as it is known that the male-line seniormost branch (Lorne) of kinglet Dubhgall went extinct already in 1300s or so (lands were inherited by a Stewart branch, then known as S of Lorn).
Does anyone kow more specifically about this result ? paper trails of those *two* ?? does their known regional background and such things match well enough?
And, does anyone happen to know whether these two cases show the Somhairle (= non-Donald) result in marker 16 ???
(the marker where descendants of Eoin/Iain mac Aenghus 'MacDonald' the good, lord of The Isles, differ from macAlisters and such other somhairle descendants)

------

from my some correspondent(s), I got to understand that there is no Dowell/Dougall y dna project.... at least known. Does anyone happen to know whether one exists, or is embedded (at least in part) in some region project or something ?

Anyway, I find it very recommendable that various Dougalls and Dowells were to give y dna samples to ClanDonald project - then those of Dougalls who actually are of same patriline, would be better sorted in the already-achieved critical mass, and besides, other sorts of Dowells would also benefit from the general Scots distribution of y Dna sorts already tested and listed in Donald project.
o***@gmail.com
2020-02-07 19:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.Sjostrom
Once upon a time
(actually, quite recently)
I read of Clan Donald dna project elaborations, that the senior line of macSomhairle (= descendants of kinglet Dubghgall of south Hebrides) is not easily identified from Dougall/Dowell y-dna test results, which *mostly* (but not apparently as to all Dougalls) differ from the y dna of Clan Donald chieftain branches.
Dubhgall, son of Somhairle, presumably was his legitimate son and born of his wife Raghnailt inghen Amhlaibh, that's because the Mann population in c1155 invited the boy Dubhgall to be their king in place of the embattled Orry IV (who was thusly Dubhgall's maternal half-uncle). That choice of the Manx population also speaks for Dubhgall being eldest of queen Raghnailt's sons. [If the son Raghnaill, forefather of the Clan Donald, were also queen Raghnailt's son -as is also very presuumable- then Ragnaill would have been a younger son... and this seniority is also supported by the generational chronology of the two lineages, Dubhgall's lineage appearing senior.
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_thread/thread/5d214f56648f489a/17bf74523b7a1a84?#17bf74523b7a1a84
]
What sort of Dougalls/Dowells have been tested ?
Since there clearly exists two different stem clans of the name Dowell/Dougall,
[namely (1) the clans which claim the heritage of kinglet Fearchar/Fergus, lord of Gallobha/Galloway, and (2) those Dougall clans which continue the somhairle tradition of Somhairle's eldest legitimate son Dubhgal]
would the necessary explanation be that so many of those non-matches actually would belong to the other, Gallobha, lineage ???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacDowall
presents info on tradition of kinglet Fearchar of Gallobha descent clan(s), who were basically Lowlands.
If their paper-trailed agnatic descendants show a different y dna than Donalds of somhairle lineage, then we would know -with some good likelihood- that Fearchar was not an agnate of Somhairle.
Somhairle lived in mid-1100s, and married Raghnailt inghean Amhlaibh, daughter of king Amhlaibh of Mann seemingly by his (first) wife, Ingeborg of Orkney.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled of Argyle
Fearchar lived in first half of 1100s, and gave (in my estimate, in 1130s) his daughter Afraig to marriage (in my view, later marriage, after Ingeborg deceased) to the selfsame king Amhlaibh of Mann.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergus_of_Galloway
Although some -in my understanding, much later- concoctions would make Fearchar of Gallobha as cousin of Somhairle, that's almost certainly totally unwarranted: Fearchar's roots seem not to be known - he appeared as sorta soldier of fortune.... Besides, the ancient notion of him being of low birth (at least from from father's side), somewhat speaks against him being born to the semi-royal lineage of Argyle (Somhairle roots).
Fearchar (who died in c1161) had known, mormaer-level male-line descendants until 1250s, i.e some four male generations - during that long lineage in medieval circumstances, some illegitimate offshoot agnatic branches could very well be started. Whether Dowells of that southern clan in some part are male-line descendants, is not ascertainable I think.
These marriages have nothing to do with having agnatic descent. They simply show that known early chieftains of these two lineages were in same culture, social class and circles, as well as lived at fairly same years. They were -afaik- not mentioned then to be very close relatives, except these marriages which made them sorta in-laws with each other.
----
What do the Dowell/Dougall y dna tests actually show ?? Which sort of ethnic background, for either of these two lineages ?
are there Dougalls whose y dna actually matches with the y dna of Clan Donald chieftain lines ?
Frome some correspondent, I got to understand that something like two samples (i.e, with Dougall surname) are almost perfect matches (= agnates) with Donald chieftains y dna.
That result would presumably mean that a somewhat smallish number of male lines still survive in descent from kinglet Dubhgall. That these are not Gallobha Dowells, but are Argyle-Lorn Dougalls.
Likeliest is that they come from some illegitimate or minor branch, as it is known that the male-line seniormost branch (Lorne) of kinglet Dubhgall went extinct already in 1300s or so (lands were inherited by a Stewart branch, then known as S of Lorn).
Does anyone kow more specifically about this result ? paper trails of those *two* ?? does their known regional background and such things match well enough?
And, does anyone happen to know whether these two cases show the Somhairle (= non-Donald) result in marker 16 ???
(the marker where descendants of Eoin/Iain mac Aenghus 'MacDonald' the good, lord of The Isles, differ from macAlisters and such other somhairle descendants)
------
from my some correspondent(s), I got to understand that there is no Dowell/Dougall y dna project.... at least known. Does anyone happen to know whether one exists, or is embedded (at least in part) in some region project or something ?
Anyway, I find it very recommendable that various Dougalls and Dowells were to give y dna samples to ClanDonald project - then those of Dougalls who actually are of same patriline, would be better sorted in the already-achieved critical mass, and besides, other sorts of Dowells would also benefit from the general Scots distribution of y Dna sorts already tested and listed in Donald project.
Mann is my last name, Lee Ann Mann, ***@gmail.com (Capital letter O and not #0 or I won't get it.)
S
2020-05-30 19:03:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.Sjostrom
Once upon a time
(actually, quite recently)
I read of Clan Donald dna project elaborations, that the senior line of macSomhairle (= descendants of kinglet Dubghgall of south Hebrides) is not easily identified from Dougall/Dowell y-dna test results, which *mostly* (but not apparently as to all Dougalls) differ from the y dna of Clan Donald chieftain branches.
Dubhgall, son of Somhairle, presumably was his legitimate son and born of his wife Raghnailt inghen Amhlaibh, that's because the Mann population in c1155 invited the boy Dubhgall to be their king in place of the embattled Orry IV (who was thusly Dubhgall's maternal half-uncle). That choice of the Manx population also speaks for Dubhgall being eldest of queen Raghnailt's sons. [If the son Raghnaill, forefather of the Clan Donald, were also queen Raghnailt's son -as is also very presuumable- then Ragnaill would have been a younger son... and this seniority is also supported by the generational chronology of the two lineages, Dubhgall's lineage appearing senior.
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_thread/thread/5d214f56648f489a/17bf74523b7a1a84?#17bf74523b7a1a84
]
What sort of Dougalls/Dowells have been tested ?
Since there clearly exists two different stem clans of the name Dowell/Dougall,
[namely (1) the clans which claim the heritage of kinglet Fearchar/Fergus, lord of Gallobha/Galloway, and (2) those Dougall clans which continue the somhairle tradition of Somhairle's eldest legitimate son Dubhgal]
would the necessary explanation be that so many of those non-matches actually would belong to the other, Gallobha, lineage ???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacDowall
presents info on tradition of kinglet Fearchar of Gallobha descent clan(s), who were basically Lowlands.
If their paper-trailed agnatic descendants show a different y dna than Donalds of somhairle lineage, then we would know -with some good likelihood- that Fearchar was not an agnate of Somhairle.
Somhairle lived in mid-1100s, and married Raghnailt inghean Amhlaibh, daughter of king Amhlaibh of Mann seemingly by his (first) wife, Ingeborg of Orkney.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled of Argyle
Fearchar lived in first half of 1100s, and gave (in my estimate, in 1130s) his daughter Afraig to marriage (in my view, later marriage, after Ingeborg deceased) to the selfsame king Amhlaibh of Mann.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergus_of_Galloway
Although some -in my understanding, much later- concoctions would make Fearchar of Gallobha as cousin of Somhairle, that's almost certainly totally unwarranted: Fearchar's roots seem not to be known - he appeared as sorta soldier of fortune.... Besides, the ancient notion of him being of low birth (at least from from father's side), somewhat speaks against him being born to the semi-royal lineage of Argyle (Somhairle roots).
Fearchar (who died in c1161) had known, mormaer-level male-line descendants until 1250s, i.e some four male generations - during that long lineage in medieval circumstances, some illegitimate offshoot agnatic branches could very well be started. Whether Dowells of that southern clan in some part are male-line descendants, is not ascertainable I think.
These marriages have nothing to do with having agnatic descent. They simply show that known early chieftains of these two lineages were in same culture, social class and circles, as well as lived at fairly same years. They were -afaik- not mentioned then to be very close relatives, except these marriages which made them sorta in-laws with each other.
----
What do the Dowell/Dougall y dna tests actually show ?? Which sort of ethnic background, for either of these two lineages ?
are there Dougalls whose y dna actually matches with the y dna of Clan Donald chieftain lines ?
Frome some correspondent, I got to understand that something like two samples (i.e, with Dougall surname) are almost perfect matches (= agnates) with Donald chieftains y dna.
That result would presumably mean that a somewhat smallish number of male lines still survive in descent from kinglet Dubhgall. That these are not Gallobha Dowells, but are Argyle-Lorn Dougalls.
Likeliest is that they come from some illegitimate or minor branch, as it is known that the male-line seniormost branch (Lorne) of kinglet Dubhgall went extinct already in 1300s or so (lands were inherited by a Stewart branch, then known as S of Lorn).
Does anyone kow more specifically about this result ? paper trails of those *two* ?? does their known regional background and such things match well enough?
And, does anyone happen to know whether these two cases show the Somhairle (= non-Donald) result in marker 16 ???
(the marker where descendants of Eoin/Iain mac Aenghus 'MacDonald' the good, lord of The Isles, differ from macAlisters and such other somhairle descendants)
------
from my some correspondent(s), I got to understand that there is no Dowell/Dougall y dna project.... at least known. Does anyone happen to know whether one exists, or is embedded (at least in part) in some region project or something ?
Anyway, I find it very recommendable that various Dougalls and Dowells were to give y dna samples to ClanDonald project - then those of Dougalls who actually are of same patriline, would be better sorted in the already-achieved critical mass, and besides, other sorts of Dowells would also benefit from the general Scots distribution of y Dna sorts already tested and listed in Donald project.
See this page for the Donald Y DNA project and results:
https://clandonaldusa.org/index.php/dna-project

Until we wen to 111 marker matching, I was considered to possibly be a
descendant of one or another the Clan Donald chieftains, all of who have
had their Y DNA tested.

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