Discussion:
OT: Genealogics Addition: Edward III Descent for the 1st Earl Bathurst (1684-1775)
(too old to reply)
Brad Verity
2013-03-19 22:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Leo has Allen Bathurst, 1st Earl Bathurst in his database, here:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00004618&tree=LEO

The 1st Earl Bathurst is possibly an ancestor of Capt. Mark Phillips,
first husband of Princess Anne, depending on whether or not Richard
Cripps of London (1786-1867) was an illegitimate son of the 3rd Earl
Bathurst. He was never acknowledged as such by the 3rd Earl.

The 1st Earl Bathurst descends in 12 generations from Edward III, as
follows.

Edward III had
1) John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399) m. 3) Katherine
Roet (c.1350-1403), and had
2) Joan Beaufort (c.1377-1440) m. 2) Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of
Westmorland (1364-1425), and had
3) Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury (c.1398-1460) m. Alice Montagu
(1406-1462, descended from Edward I), and had
4) Alice Neville (c.1434-aft.1503) m. Henry Fitzhugh, 6th Lord
Fitzhugh (1429-1472), and had
5) Elizabeth Fitzhugh (1462-bef.1407) m. 1) Sir William Parr of Kendal
(1434-1483), and had
6) William Parr, Baron Parr of Horton (c.1480-1546) m. Mary Salisbury
(1484-1555), and had
7) Maud Parr (c.1507-1559) m. Sir Ralph Lane of Orlingbury
(1509-1540), and had
8) Frances Lane m. Sir George Turpin of Knaptoft (1529-1583), and had
9) Sibella Turpin (d. 1624)* m. 1) Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall
(d. 1600), and had
10) Elizabeth Villiers (c.1595-1650) m. George Bathurst of Hothorpe
Hall (c.1586-1656), and had
11) Sir Benjamin Bathurst of Paulerspury (1638-1704) m. Frances Apsley
(1653-1727, descended from Edward I), and had
12) Allen, 1st Earl Bathurst (1684-1775)

*Per the Villiers pedigree in the 1619 Visitation of Leicesteshire,
the wife of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall was "Sibell Da. of ---
Turpin sister to Sr George Turpin Kt":
http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationcount09britgoog#page/n49/mode/2up

Per John Harwood Hill's 1875 book 'The History of Market Harborough',
"In 1600 Edward Villiers died possessed of this manor [Hothorpe]. He
married Sibella, daughter of William Turpin, of Knaptoft, Esq...Mr.
Villiers left three daughters and co-heirs. Mary, aged 16 (who, in the
Inquisition, is called the wife of Calcott Chambre); Jane, aged 8,
afterwards the wife of John Deynham; and Elizabeth, aged 7, who, in
1610, was married to George Bathurst, Esq., Alderman of London, and
the re-builder of Franks, in the parish of Horton Kirby, Kent. The
widow of Mr. Villiers was re-married to Ralph Kettell, D.D., President
of Trinity College, Oxford" [pp. 284-285]:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=7PxGAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=Hothorpe&f=false

There is no pedigree of Turpin in the published 1619 Visitation of
Leicestershire. In 'The History & Antiquities of the County of
Leicester' Volume 4 (1), Nichols has a pedigree of Gobion and Turpin
of Knaptoft, which he says is "continued from the Visitation of 1619".
In his pedigree, Nichols makes "Sibilla = Edward Villiers, of
Hothorpe, co. Northampton", a daughter of John Turpin of Knaptoft (d.
1530) & Rose Ruthall [p. 262 - p. 225 in book]:
http://cdm16445.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15407coll6/id/3401

It is chronologically impossible for Sibella Turpin to be the daughter
of a man who died in 1530, and in turn be the mother of girls who were
returned as ages 16, 8 & 7 in their father's IPM taken in 2 James II
[1604-05]. Instead, it would seem that Sibella should be the married,
unnamed daughter that Nichols assigns in his pedigree to George Turpin
& Frances Lane. Per the bio of Sir George Turpin in HOP, he was born
posthumous in 1529, and died in 1583:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/turpin-george-1529-83

The HOP bio of Sir George's son Sir William Turpin of Knaptoft has him
born about 1558, and dead in 1617:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/turpin-william-1558-1617

Since Sibella Turpin bore her eldest daughter Mary Villiers in about
1589, she was likely born in the latter half of the 1560s, making her
chronologically a daughter of Sir George Turpin (b. 1529), rather than
of Sir William Turpin (b. c.1558).

Per his ODNB bio, Ralph Kettell (1563-1643), President of Trinity
College Oxford, had an "infant daughter buried two days after her
baptism" in 1606, and a (unnamed in the bio) wife "perhaps his second"
buried at St Mary Church, Garsington, Oxfordshire on 19 February 1624.
Per the 1889 book 'History of the Apsley & Bathurst Families' by Julia
Alexander Hankey, "George Bathurst met his wife [Elizabeth Villiers]
while pursuing his studies at Oxford, where she lived with her mother
and her step-father Dr. Kettel, the President of Trinity College. She
was only 14 years old when she married":
http://archive.org/stream/historyofapsleyb00hank#page/42/mode/2up

Given the above facts, it seems natural that it was Sibella Turpin who
bore Ralph Kettell the daughter in 1606, and who died in 1624.

Cheers, ------Brad
Brian Hessick
2014-01-15 04:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Also worth mentioning that in the will of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe, Northamptonshire proven 5 May 1602 (PROB 11/99/324) he mentions Mary, his wife, is the mother of his younger daughters, Jane and Elizabeth. Either Mary was d/o ... Turpin or Edward married twice. We can also be sure that the same Mary Villiers, widow, married Ralph Kettell aforesaid.

To add to this complexity, Ralph Kettell's father, John Kettell of Kings Langley, Herts., married twice, (1) Katherine d/o John Mynne Auditor of the Exchequer, and (2) Barbara Villiers, widow (her maiden name is not certain to me but may have been natural sister to Katherine). From her first marriage, Barbara had a son John Villiers, and from the language of his will, probated 5 June 16116 (PROB 11/127/665) his deceased father was of Hothorpe, Nothants. This makes the first mentioned Edward Villiers uncle to John Villiers.
Brad Verity
2014-01-15 16:27:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Hessick
Also worth mentioning that in the will of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe, Northamptonshire proven 5 May 1602 (PROB 11/99/324) he mentions Mary, his wife, is the mother of his younger daughters, Jane and Elizabeth. Either Mary was d/o ... Turpin or Edward married twice. We can also be sure that the same Mary Villiers, widow, married Ralph Kettell aforesaid.
Dear Brian,

Many thanks for sharing the information from Edward Villiers' will. The will seems to make it clear that Edward had two wives, and that his daughters Jane & Elizabeth were from his second wife Mary. That helps to explain the age gap between Edward's eldest daughter Mary (16), and the other daughters Jane (8) and Elizabeth (7), as returned in his IPM.

Nichols had the first name of Edward Villiers' Turpin wife as 'Sibella'. If accurate, this would necessarily make her Edward's first wife, as we know the first name of his second wife (and widow) was 'Mary'.

This removes the Edward III descent for the 1st Earl Bathurst, though the earl retains an Edward I descent, through his mother Frances Apsley. Perhaps further research will help to further identify Edward's second wife Mary, the ancestress of the 1st Earl Bathurst.

Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad
j***@yahoo.com
2014-01-15 23:54:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Verity
Post by Brian Hessick
Also worth mentioning that in the will of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe, Northamptonshire proven 5 May 1602 (PROB 11/99/324) he mentions Mary, his wife, is the mother of his younger daughters, Jane and Elizabeth. Either Mary was d/o ... Turpin or Edward married twice. We can also be sure that the same Mary Villiers, widow, married Ralph Kettell aforesaid.
Dear Brian,
Many thanks for sharing the information from Edward Villiers' will. The will seems to make it clear that Edward had two wives, and that his daughters Jane & Elizabeth were from his second wife Mary. That helps to explain the age gap between Edward's eldest daughter Mary (16), and the other daughters Jane (8) and Elizabeth (7), as returned in his IPM.
Nichols had the first name of Edward Villiers' Turpin wife as 'Sibella'. If accurate, this would necessarily make her Edward's first wife, as we know the first name of his second wife (and widow) was 'Mary'.
This removes the Edward III descent for the 1st Earl Bathurst, though the earl retains an Edward I descent, through his mother Frances Apsley. Perhaps further research will help to further identify Edward's second wife Mary, the ancestress of the 1st Earl Bathurst.
Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad
FWIW (not necessarily very much) various online pedigrees say that the surname of Edward Villiers' wife Mary was Fisher (although none indicate her parentage). This is almost certainly from the LDS Ancestral File, as I have a note in my files dating back to 2002 with an extract from the AF indicating that Mary Fisher was the second wife of Edward Villiers - and the mother of all three of his daughters. But the surname may be a lead for further research.

Brad, what is the evidence supporting the statement that Nary Villiers, wife of Calcott Chambre, was the daughter of Sibella Turpin rather than the 2nd wife Mary [possibly Fisher]? Although only the two younger daughters are apparently mentioned in Edward's will, his IPM notes that the elder daughter Mary was already married and thus would not necessarily be mentioned in the will. I suppose we'd have to read the will itself to see how specifically the maternity of the three daughters is addressed (if at all). I don't think the gap in birth dates among the daughters is necessarily decisive.
Brad Verity
2014-01-16 03:13:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Brad, what is the evidence supporting the statement that Nary Villiers, wife of Calcott Chambre, was the daughter of Sibella Turpin rather than the 2nd wife Mary [possibly Fisher]?
I was just going by Brian's statement that Edward Villiers in his will mentioned that his wife Mary was the mother of his younger daughters Jane and Elizabeth. I assumed that meant that the eldest daughter was from an earlier wife, presumably the Turpin one.
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Although only the two younger daughters are apparently mentioned in Edward's will, his IPM notes that the elder daughter Mary was already married and thus would not necessarily be mentioned in the will. I suppose we'd have to read the will itself to see how specifically the maternity of the three daughters is addressed (if at all).
I wonder if Edward's will is in Ancestry.com's new P.C.C. database.

Cheers, ----Brad
corbyguy
2014-01-16 17:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Yes the will is on Ancestry.com's P.C.C. database. It is indexed under
Edward Villars, probate date 5 May 1602, residence as Hothorpe
Northamptonshire England.

If you have paid membership you can download a copy to your computer using
the "save" option.

Jamie
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Brad, what is the evidence supporting the statement that Nary Villiers,
wife of Calcott Chambre, was the daughter of Sibella Turpin rather than
the 2nd wife Mary [possibly Fisher]?
I was just going by Brian's statement that Edward Villiers in his will
mentioned that his wife Mary was the mother of his younger daughters Jane
and Elizabeth. I assumed that meant that the eldest daughter was from an
earlier wife, presumably the Turpin one.
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Although only the two younger daughters are apparently mentioned in
Edward's will, his IPM notes that the elder daughter Mary was already
married and thus would not necessarily be mentioned in the will. I
suppose we'd have to read the will itself to see how specifically the
maternity of the three daughters is addressed (if at all).
I wonder if Edward's will is in Ancestry.com's new P.C.C. database.

Cheers, ----Brad
g***@googlemail.com
2015-04-11 22:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Post by Brad Verity
Post by Brian Hessick
Also worth mentioning that in the will of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe, Northamptonshire proven 5 May 1602 (PROB 11/99/324) he mentions Mary, his wife, is the mother of his younger daughters, Jane and Elizabeth. Either Mary was d/o ... Turpin or Edward married twice. We can also be sure that the same Mary Villiers, widow, married Ralph Kettell aforesaid.
Dear Brian,
Many thanks for sharing the information from Edward Villiers' will. The will seems to make it clear that Edward had two wives, and that his daughters Jane & Elizabeth were from his second wife Mary. That helps to explain the age gap between Edward's eldest daughter Mary (16), and the other daughters Jane (8) and Elizabeth (7), as returned in his IPM.
Nichols had the first name of Edward Villiers' Turpin wife as 'Sibella'. If accurate, this would necessarily make her Edward's first wife, as we know the first name of his second wife (and widow) was 'Mary'.
This removes the Edward III descent for the 1st Earl Bathurst, though the earl retains an Edward I descent, through his mother Frances Apsley. Perhaps further research will help to further identify Edward's second wife Mary, the ancestress of the 1st Earl Bathurst.
Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad
FWIW (not necessarily very much) various online pedigrees say that the surname of Edward Villiers' wife Mary was Fisher (although none indicate her parentage). This is almost certainly from the LDS Ancestral File, as I have a note in my files dating back to 2002 with an extract from the AF indicating that Mary Fisher was the second wife of Edward Villiers - and the mother of all three of his daughters. But the surname may be a lead for further research.
Brad, what is the evidence supporting the statement that Nary Villiers, wife of Calcott Chambre, was the daughter of Sibella Turpin rather than the 2nd wife Mary [possibly Fisher]? Although only the two younger daughters are apparently mentioned in Edward's will, his IPM notes that the elder daughter Mary was already married and thus would not necessarily be mentioned in the will. I suppose we'd have to read the will itself to see how specifically the maternity of the three daughters is addressed (if at all). I don't think the gap in birth dates among the daughters is necessarily decisive.
Mary, the second wife of Edward Villiers, was the daughter of 'Leonarde Coxe, widow, of Garsington' (PCC 1611). 'Leonard' is a rather unusual name for a woman, but that was certainly her name!

The family name 'Fisher' comes from:
Index to Acts of Administration in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury 1609 - 1619 (Acts of Administration)
1612
Cox, Leonard, Garsington, Oxon. To Mary Kettle als. Fisher, da. pend. suit. of Ralph K., prof. theology, exor. v. Mgt. Beardmore als. Peacock, Atlanta Bott, Jane Dineham and Eliz. Buckherst 1611 , p. 19 (W/Sentence 1612 , 19 Fenner).

However, in the Will of Leonard Coxe and associated documents (in Latin, so I may have missed it), I can see no mention of the name 'Fisher':
Margaret Beardmore als Peacocke wife of Thomas Beardmore... daughter of deceased
Altanta Bott wife of John Bott daughter of said Margaret and relative of the aforementioned deceased
Jane Dinham wife of John Dinham and Elizabeth Bathurst wife of George Bathurst relatives of said deceased

The inheritance dispute is detailed in:
Beardmore v. Kettell 1613
National Archives reference C8/18/12
Inheritance Disputes Index, 1574-1714
Leonard Cox widow

Some extracts:
28th October 1613
Humbly sheweth to yor Lordshipp yor Orators Thomas Beardmore of Bagotts Bromley in the County of Stafford gent, and Margaret his wife, that whereas Leonard Coxe widdow deceased mother to Margaret yor Oratrix was in her life tyme lawfully possessed of a personal estate of Goods and Chattles to the value of six hundred pounds and above, and died thereof possessed about two yeres and a halfe since having only yssue Margaret yor Oratrix and Mary Kettle now wife of Raphe Kettle Doctor in Divinity, by force whereof yor Orators aught in all law and conscience to have taken the benefit of the moity of the said Leonard's estate together with the aforesaid Mary Kettle nd to have taken Joint administration with the said Mary of the goods and chattles of the said Leonard. But the saide Doctor Kettle and Mary his wife and one George Bathurst gent entending and endeavouring to defeate yor Orators of all and every part of the saide goods of the saide Leonard did presently after the death of the saide Leonard publish and sett on foote a last will and testamt. supposed to be the last will of the saide Leonard, by which will there is onely three legacies of ffifty and foure pounds or thereabouts bequeathed whereof the some of ffifty pounds is bequeathed to the saide George Bathurst, and the saide Doctor Kettle is made thereof sole executor...
...But the saide Doctor Kettle still endeavouring to deceive yor Orators of a greate pt of that which was and is due unto them of the said Leonard's estate did give an accompt to yor said Orators, that the said Leonard did at the tyme of her death owe to the said Mary Kettle for money borrowed of her the some of ffourescore pounds, And likewise that upon a promise made by the saide Leonard in her life tyme to make up the porcons of Jane the now wife of one John Denham and Elizabeth now the wife of the saide George Bathurst and daughters of the saide Mary Kettle for soe much as should be wanting of theire saide porcons given them by Edward Villars their ffather former husband of the saide Mary, and of so much as the saide Doctor Kettle had at the tyme of his marriage with the saide Mary assumed to paye them the some of three hundred pounds a piece, all which togeather with the funerall expences amounted to the some of ffoure hundred and ffourescore pounds or neare thereabouts...

Mary's sister Margaret is given as 'als Peacocke', but I have not been able to identify where the name 'Peacocke' comes from...
There is an entry in the Warwickshire archives (Reference: ER 3/2546): Settlement between Thomas Beardmore of Bagotts Bromley, co. Staffs., gent. and Margaret his wife, and William George of London, plumber (son and heir apparent of the said Margaret) 19 Oct 1614
Thomas Beardmor married 4 November 1601 at Nether Whitacre, Warwick, Margaret George
William George christened 4 March 1590 Kingsbury, Warwickshire father: William George
(Attalanta was a names used in the George family (eg Attalanta, daughter of Roberti and Elyzabethae Gorge, christened at Grendon, Warwickshire, 10 Nov 1586))
William George of the Plumber's Livery Company was taking apprentices between 1609 and 1638.

So, Mary Villers/Kettell was the daughter of Leonard Coxe. As we don't have the maiden name of either Mary or her sister Margaret, we cannot be sure their father was a Coxe.

Regards
Ted Garway-Heath
m***@gmail.com
2018-04-27 13:46:50 UTC
Permalink
To me it seems possible that the Turpin pedigree is correct and that Sibilla Turpin married Edward Villiers, the grandfather of the Edward who's daughter Mary married Calcot Chambre.
Her sister Elizabeth and she would then have been the heirs of Edward Villiers - but of their great grandfather.
Jamie Vans.
Post by Brad Verity
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00004618&tree=LEO
The 1st Earl Bathurst is possibly an ancestor of Capt. Mark Phillips,
first husband of Princess Anne, depending on whether or not Richard
Cripps of London (1786-1867) was an illegitimate son of the 3rd Earl
Bathurst. He was never acknowledged as such by the 3rd Earl.
The 1st Earl Bathurst descends in 12 generations from Edward III, as
follows.
Edward III had
1) John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399) m. 3) Katherine
Roet (c.1350-1403), and had
2) Joan Beaufort (c.1377-1440) m. 2) Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of
Westmorland (1364-1425), and had
3) Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury (c.1398-1460) m. Alice Montagu
(1406-1462, descended from Edward I), and had
4) Alice Neville (c.1434-aft.1503) m. Henry Fitzhugh, 6th Lord
Fitzhugh (1429-1472), and had
5) Elizabeth Fitzhugh (1462-bef.1407) m. 1) Sir William Parr of Kendal
(1434-1483), and had
6) William Parr, Baron Parr of Horton (c.1480-1546) m. Mary Salisbury
(1484-1555), and had
7) Maud Parr (c.1507-1559) m. Sir Ralph Lane of Orlingbury
(1509-1540), and had
8) Frances Lane m. Sir George Turpin of Knaptoft (1529-1583), and had
9) Sibella Turpin (d. 1624)* m. 1) Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall
(d. 1600), and had
10) Elizabeth Villiers (c.1595-1650) m. George Bathurst of Hothorpe
Hall (c.1586-1656), and had
11) Sir Benjamin Bathurst of Paulerspury (1638-1704) m. Frances Apsley
(1653-1727, descended from Edward I), and had
12) Allen, 1st Earl Bathurst (1684-1775)
*Per the Villiers pedigree in the 1619 Visitation of Leicesteshire,
the wife of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall was "Sibell Da. of ---
http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationcount09britgoog#page/n49/mode/2up
Per John Harwood Hill's 1875 book 'The History of Market Harborough',
"In 1600 Edward Villiers died possessed of this manor [Hothorpe]. He
married Sibella, daughter of William Turpin, of Knaptoft, Esq...Mr.
Villiers left three daughters and co-heirs. Mary, aged 16 (who, in the
Inquisition, is called the wife of Calcott Chambre); Jane, aged 8,
afterwards the wife of John Deynham; and Elizabeth, aged 7, who, in
1610, was married to George Bathurst, Esq., Alderman of London, and
the re-builder of Franks, in the parish of Horton Kirby, Kent. The
widow of Mr. Villiers was re-married to Ralph Kettell, D.D., President
http://books.google.ca/books?id=7PxGAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=Hothorpe&f=false
There is no pedigree of Turpin in the published 1619 Visitation of
Leicestershire. In 'The History & Antiquities of the County of
Leicester' Volume 4 (1), Nichols has a pedigree of Gobion and Turpin
of Knaptoft, which he says is "continued from the Visitation of 1619".
In his pedigree, Nichols makes "Sibilla = Edward Villiers, of
Hothorpe, co. Northampton", a daughter of John Turpin of Knaptoft (d.
http://cdm16445.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15407coll6/id/3401
It is chronologically impossible for Sibella Turpin to be the daughter
of a man who died in 1530, and in turn be the mother of girls who were
returned as ages 16, 8 & 7 in their father's IPM taken in 2 James II
[1604-05]. Instead, it would seem that Sibella should be the married,
unnamed daughter that Nichols assigns in his pedigree to George Turpin
& Frances Lane. Per the bio of Sir George Turpin in HOP, he was born
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/turpin-george-1529-83
The HOP bio of Sir George's son Sir William Turpin of Knaptoft has him
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/turpin-william-1558-1617
Since Sibella Turpin bore her eldest daughter Mary Villiers in about
1589, she was likely born in the latter half of the 1560s, making her
chronologically a daughter of Sir George Turpin (b. 1529), rather than
of Sir William Turpin (b. c.1558).
Per his ODNB bio, Ralph Kettell (1563-1643), President of Trinity
College Oxford, had an "infant daughter buried two days after her
baptism" in 1606, and a (unnamed in the bio) wife "perhaps his second"
buried at St Mary Church, Garsington, Oxfordshire on 19 February 1624.
Per the 1889 book 'History of the Apsley & Bathurst Families' by Julia
Alexander Hankey, "George Bathurst met his wife [Elizabeth Villiers]
while pursuing his studies at Oxford, where she lived with her mother
and her step-father Dr. Kettel, the President of Trinity College. She
http://archive.org/stream/historyofapsleyb00hank#page/42/mode/2up
Given the above facts, it seems natural that it was Sibella Turpin who
bore Ralph Kettell the daughter in 1606, and who died in 1624.
Cheers, ------Brad
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2018-04-27 16:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Verity
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00004618&tree=LEO
The 1st Earl Bathurst is possibly an ancestor of Capt. Mark Phillips,
first husband of Princess Anne, depending on whether or not Richard
Cripps of London (1786-1867) was an illegitimate son of the 3rd Earl
Bathurst. He was never acknowledged as such by the 3rd Earl.
The 1st Earl Bathurst descends in 12 generations from Edward III, as
follows.
Edward III had
1) John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399) m. 3) Katherine
Roet (c.1350-1403), and had
2) Joan Beaufort (c.1377-1440) m. 2) Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of
Westmorland (1364-1425), and had
3) Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury (c.1398-1460) m. Alice Montagu
(1406-1462, descended from Edward I), and had
4) Alice Neville (c.1434-aft.1503) m. Henry Fitzhugh, 6th Lord
Fitzhugh (1429-1472), and had
5) Elizabeth Fitzhugh (1462-bef.1407) m. 1) Sir William Parr of Kendal
(1434-1483), and had
6) William Parr, Baron Parr of Horton (c.1480-1546) m. Mary Salisbury
(1484-1555), and had
7) Maud Parr (c.1507-1559) m. Sir Ralph Lane of Orlingbury
(1509-1540), and had
8) Frances Lane m. Sir George Turpin of Knaptoft (1529-1583), and had
9) Sibella Turpin (d. 1624)* m. 1) Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall
(d. 1600), and had
10) Elizabeth Villiers (c.1595-1650) m. George Bathurst of Hothorpe
Hall (c.1586-1656), and had
11) Sir Benjamin Bathurst of Paulerspury (1638-1704) m. Frances Apsley
(1653-1727, descended from Edward I), and had
12) Allen, 1st Earl Bathurst (1684-1775)
*Per the Villiers pedigree in the 1619 Visitation of Leicesteshire,
the wife of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall was "Sibell Da. of ---
http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationcount09britgoog#page/n49/mode/2up
Per John Harwood Hill's 1875 book 'The History of Market Harborough',
"In 1600 Edward Villiers died possessed of this manor [Hothorpe]. He
married Sibella, daughter of William Turpin, of Knaptoft, Esq...Mr.
Villiers left three daughters and co-heirs. Mary, aged 16 (who, in the
Inquisition, is called the wife of Calcott Chambre); Jane, aged 8,
afterwards the wife of John Deynham; and Elizabeth, aged 7, who, in
1610, was married to George Bathurst, Esq., Alderman of London, and
the re-builder of Franks, in the parish of Horton Kirby, Kent. The
widow of Mr. Villiers was re-married to Ralph Kettell, D.D., President
http://books.google.ca/books?id=7PxGAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=Hothorpe&f=false
There is no pedigree of Turpin in the published 1619 Visitation of
Leicestershire. In 'The History & Antiquities of the County of
Leicester' Volume 4 (1), Nichols has a pedigree of Gobion and Turpin
of Knaptoft, which he says is "continued from the Visitation of 1619".
In his pedigree, Nichols makes "Sibilla = Edward Villiers, of
Hothorpe, co. Northampton", a daughter of John Turpin of Knaptoft (d.
http://cdm16445.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15407coll6/id/3401
It is chronologically impossible for Sibella Turpin to be the daughter
of a man who died in 1530, and in turn be the mother of girls who were
returned as ages 16, 8 & 7 in their father's IPM taken in 2 James II
[1604-05]. Instead, it would seem that Sibella should be the married,
unnamed daughter that Nichols assigns in his pedigree to George Turpin
& Frances Lane. Per the bio of Sir George Turpin in HOP, he was born
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/turpin-george-1529-83
The HOP bio of Sir George's son Sir William Turpin of Knaptoft has him
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/turpin-william-1558-1617
Since Sibella Turpin bore her eldest daughter Mary Villiers in about
1589, she was likely born in the latter half of the 1560s, making her
chronologically a daughter of Sir George Turpin (b. 1529), rather than
of Sir William Turpin (b. c.1558).
Per his ODNB bio, Ralph Kettell (1563-1643), President of Trinity
College Oxford, had an "infant daughter buried two days after her
baptism" in 1606, and a (unnamed in the bio) wife "perhaps his second"
buried at St Mary Church, Garsington, Oxfordshire on 19 February 1624.
Per the 1889 book 'History of the Apsley & Bathurst Families' by Julia
Alexander Hankey, "George Bathurst met his wife [Elizabeth Villiers]
while pursuing his studies at Oxford, where she lived with her mother
and her step-father Dr. Kettel, the President of Trinity College. She
http://archive.org/stream/historyofapsleyb00hank#page/42/mode/2up
Given the above facts, it seems natural that it was Sibella Turpin who
bore Ralph Kettell the daughter in 1606, and who died in 1624.
Cheers, ------Brad
Richard Cripps of London (1786-1867) was certainly an illegitimate son of the 3rd Earl Bathurst. According to http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00004597&tree=LEO, the Bathurst family once offered him about 20,000 Pounds Stirling to set himself up in business, that he refused saying that if the then Earl Bathurst was not man enough to recognise his own son he would not take their money.
wjhonson
2018-04-28 17:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Brad stated back here a few years ago, that
Allen Bathurst, 1st Earl /Bathurst/ 1712-1772, GW

had lost his Edward III descent

But I still show such a descent through the St John family of Lydiard Tregoze

Frances /Apsley/

Allen /Apsley/ treasurer of the household to James, Duke of York; Knt, W

Lucy /St John/

John /St John/ of Lydiard Tregoz, co Wilt; Knt

Nicholas /St John/ of Lydiard Tregoze, co Wilt

John /St John/

Jane (Joan) /Iwardby/

John /Iwardby/ of Quainton and Farley-Chamberlayne)

Katherine /Neville/

Edward Neville , Baron /Abergavenny/ j.u.

Joan (Jane) Beaufort, Baroness Neville, Countess of /Westmoreland/

John of Gaunt, Earl of Richmond 1342-72; 1st Duke of Aquitaine 1389- and Duke of /Lancaster/

Edward III, King of /England/ 1327-77


Where is the failure in this line?
John Higgins
2018-04-28 23:27:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by wjhonson
Brad stated back here a few years ago, that
Allen Bathurst, 1st Earl /Bathurst/ 1712-1772, GW
had lost his Edward III descent
But I still show such a descent through the St John family of Lydiard Tregoze
Frances /Apsley/
Allen /Apsley/ treasurer of the household to James, Duke of York; Knt, W
Lucy /St John/
John /St John/ of Lydiard Tregoz, co Wilt; Knt
Nicholas /St John/ of Lydiard Tregoze, co Wilt
John /St John/
Jane (Joan) /Iwardby/
John /Iwardby/ of Quainton and Farley-Chamberlayne)
Katherine /Neville/
Edward Neville , Baron /Abergavenny/ j.u.
Joan (Jane) Beaufort, Baroness Neville, Countess of /Westmoreland/
John of Gaunt, Earl of Richmond 1342-72; 1st Duke of Aquitaine 1389- and Duke of /Lancaster/
Edward III, King of /England/ 1327-77
Where is the failure in this line?
I think the question with this descent is which John Iwardby was the father of Jane/Janet Iwardby (and by which wife, if he had multiple wives), and also which
John Iwardby (if any) married Katherine Neville - through whom this Edward III descent comes.

Checks the archives - I believe there was considerable discussion on the Iwardbys many years. Also I believe there's an article in vol. 26 (1968) of the Surrey Record Society which has a good account of this family. I'll have to dig through my files to find it.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2018-04-29 00:33:03 UTC
Permalink
You can't imagine the big coincidence that happened to me. I saw Will's post but didn't bother with it and later I was searching about the Machell of London and found a database with profiles on them, I searched through the database and saw a St. John, I searched for his ancestry in the web and saw this Neville-Idwardby-St. John connection with different sources giving different versions of it. I only realized the connection between what I saw here and what I saw elsewehere in the web after seeing John's post.
John Higgins
2018-04-29 03:35:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Higgins
Post by wjhonson
Brad stated back here a few years ago, that
Allen Bathurst, 1st Earl /Bathurst/ 1712-1772, GW
had lost his Edward III descent
But I still show such a descent through the St John family of Lydiard Tregoze
Frances /Apsley/
Allen /Apsley/ treasurer of the household to James, Duke of York; Knt, W
Lucy /St John/
John /St John/ of Lydiard Tregoz, co Wilt; Knt
Nicholas /St John/ of Lydiard Tregoze, co Wilt
John /St John/
Jane (Joan) /Iwardby/
John /Iwardby/ of Quainton and Farley-Chamberlayne)
Katherine /Neville/
Edward Neville , Baron /Abergavenny/ j.u.
Joan (Jane) Beaufort, Baroness Neville, Countess of /Westmoreland/
John of Gaunt, Earl of Richmond 1342-72; 1st Duke of Aquitaine 1389- and Duke of /Lancaster/
Edward III, King of /England/ 1327-77
Where is the failure in this line?
I think the question with this descent is which John Iwardby was the father of Jane/Janet Iwardby (and by which wife, if he had multiple wives), and also which
John Iwardby (if any) married Katherine Neville - through whom this Edward III descent comes.
Checks the archives - I believe there was considerable discussion on the Iwardbys many years ago. Also I believe there's an article in vol. 26 (1968) of the Surrey Record Society which has a good account of this family. I'll have to dig through my files to find it.
To answer your specific question, Katherine Neville did marry Sir John Iwardby, KB (d. 1525), as his first of three wives. The couple did have a son John, but he died young and unmarried, probably as an infant. Jane Iwardby was a daughter of Sir John Iwardby by his 2nd wife (of 3). Thus she - and her descendant the 1st Earl Bathurst - do not have the Edward III descent that Katherine Neville brought to the family.
wjhonson
2018-04-30 19:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Thanks.
I've updated my database with that information.
Thomas Bonnett
2018-07-02 17:45:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Verity
*Per the Villiers pedigree in the 1619 Visitation of Leicesteshire,
the wife of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall was "Sibell Da. of ---
http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationcount09britgoog#page/n49/mode/2up
Per John Harwood Hill's 1875 book 'The History of Market Harborough',
"In 1600 Edward Villiers died possessed of this manor [Hothorpe]. He
married Sibella, daughter of William Turpin, of Knaptoft, Esq...Mr.
Villiers left three daughters and co-heirs. Mary, aged 16 (who, in the
Inquisition, is called the wife of Calcott Chambre); Jane, aged 8,
afterwards the wife of John Deynham; and Elizabeth, aged 7, who, in
1610, was married to George Bathurst, Esq., Alderman of London, and
the re-builder of Franks, in the parish of Horton Kirby, Kent. The
widow of Mr. Villiers was re-married to Ralph Kettell, D.D., President
http://books.google.ca/books?id=7PxGAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=Hothorpe&f=false
There is no pedigree of Turpin in the published 1619 Visitation of
Leicestershire. In 'The History & Antiquities of the County of
Leicester' Volume 4 (1), Nichols has a pedigree of Gobion and Turpin
of Knaptoft, which he says is "continued from the Visitation of 1619".
In his pedigree, Nichols makes "Sibilla = Edward Villiers, of
Hothorpe, co. Northampton", a daughter of John Turpin of Knaptoft (d.
http://cdm16445.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15407coll6/id/3401
It is chronologically impossible for Sibella Turpin to be the daughter
of a man who died in 1530, and in turn be the mother of girls who were
returned as ages 16, 8 & 7 in their father's IPM taken in 2 James II
[1604-05]. Instead, it would seem that Sibella should be the married,
unnamed daughter that Nichols assigns in his pedigree to George Turpin
& Frances Lane. Per the bio of Sir George Turpin in HOP, he was born
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/turpin-george-1529-83
The HOP bio of Sir George's son Sir William Turpin of Knaptoft has him
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/turpin-william-1558-1617
Since Sibella Turpin bore her eldest daughter Mary Villiers in about
1589, she was likely born in the latter half of the 1560s, making her
chronologically a daughter of Sir George Turpin (b. 1529), rather than
of Sir William Turpin (b. c.1558).
Per his ODNB bio, Ralph Kettell (1563-1643), President of Trinity
College Oxford, had an "infant daughter buried two days after her
baptism" in 1606, and a (unnamed in the bio) wife "perhaps his second"
buried at St Mary Church, Garsington, Oxfordshire on 19 February 1624.
Per the 1889 book 'History of the Apsley & Bathurst Families' by Julia
Alexander Hankey, "George Bathurst met his wife [Elizabeth Villiers]
while pursuing his studies at Oxford, where she lived with her mother
and her step-father Dr. Kettel, the President of Trinity College. She
http://archive.org/stream/historyofapsleyb00hank#page/42/mode/2up
Given the above facts, it seems natural that it was Sibella Turpin who
bore Ralph Kettell the daughter in 1606, and who died in 1624.
Cheers, ------Brad
Just to Interject, I've looked at the Pedigree's but they seem to miss a daughter of Sir George Turpin who I'm researching on my line.

An Elizabeth Turpin married Andrew Halford Esq of Wistow/Kilby (1st son of Sir Richard Halford,1st Baronet of Wistow Hall and the same Andrew who hung Rebel Parliamentarians and was condemned to death by Cromwell but bribed his life for £30,000)


According to 'The Baronetage of England' by Thomas Wotton.
Andrew Halford Esq's first wife was Elizabeth Turpin daughter of Sir George Turpin of Knaptoft. It was this Elizabeth who bore Andrew his Heir who would succeed his grandfather Sir Richard as Sir Thomas Halford, 2nd Baronet of Wistow Hall.

Andrew was born abt 1603 as he was 54 years old when he predeceased his father in 1657.

Wouldn't Elizabeth be the unnamed Daughter on Nicholls pedigree?

I cant find much on The Turpins but my understanding is that there was only one Sir George Turpin in this time period? Although Elizabeth would have been a considerable few years older that Andrew, So I'm not sure how this Elizabeth links in.
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