Discussion:
Rev. Gregory Dexter in 900 immigrants of Royal Descent
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a***@gmail.com
2019-01-30 01:45:16 UTC
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Does anyone have details on the line proposed for Reverend Gregory Dexter of Rhode Island in 900 Immigrants of Royal Descent? Is it different from the one proposed on this group earlier?
h***@yahoo.com
2019-01-30 20:58:30 UTC
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Rev Dexter is listed in Volume 1, Appendix VIII, pages clxxix-clxxi with a group of "Immigrants with Caveats, Some Aspect of Whose Royal Descent Merits Further Investigation." His possible descent from Ethelred II "the Unready" appears in Volume 2, pages 861-2 with sources on pages 862-3. The connection in question appears in generations 12 & 13.

12 Lucy de Morteyn=Sir John Giffard
13 Alice Giffard=Sir John Anne
14 Alice Anne=William Raynsford
15 Elizabeth Raynsford=Stephen Agard
16 Katherine Agard=Harold Kinnesman
17 Elizabeth Kinnesman=Thomas Dexter
18 Stephen Dexter=Anne Turland
19 Gregory Dexter=Isabel -----
20 Rev Gregory Dexter of R.I.=Abigail Fuller

The caveat that appears next to Sir John Anne's name indicates that Alice's maternity is uncertain, possibly a daughter of Sir John Giffard's second wife Alice de Montfort. At the end of the list of sources on page 863 Gary Boyd Roberts states that "A monograph on Alice (Gifford) Anne is much needed."

Stephen Agard in Generation 15 descends from Louis IV King of France. That line's covered on pages 874-875

19 Margery Throckmorton=Richard Middlemore
20 Elizabeth Middlemore=George Agard
21 Stephen Agard=Elizabeth Raynsford
a***@gmail.com
2019-01-30 22:48:56 UTC
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Post by h***@yahoo.com
Rev Dexter is listed in Volume 1, Appendix VIII, pages clxxix-clxxi with a group of "Immigrants with Caveats, Some Aspect of Whose Royal Descent Merits Further Investigation." His possible descent from Ethelred II "the Unready" appears in Volume 2, pages 861-2 with sources on pages 862-3. The connection in question appears in generations 12 & 13.
12 Lucy de Morteyn=Sir John Giffard
13 Alice Giffard=Sir John Anne
14 Alice Anne=William Raynsford
15 Elizabeth Raynsford=Stephen Agard
16 Katherine Agard=Harold Kinnesman
17 Elizabeth Kinnesman=Thomas Dexter
18 Stephen Dexter=Anne Turland
19 Gregory Dexter=Isabel -----
20 Rev Gregory Dexter of R.I.=Abigail Fuller
The caveat that appears next to Sir John Anne's name indicates that Alice's maternity is uncertain, possibly a daughter of Sir John Giffard's second wife Alice de Montfort. At the end of the list of sources on page 863 Gary Boyd Roberts states that "A monograph on Alice (Gifford) Anne is much needed."
Stephen Agard in Generation 15 descends from Louis IV King of France. That line's covered on pages 874-875
19 Margery Throckmorton=Richard Middlemore
20 Elizabeth Middlemore=George Agard
21 Stephen Agard=Elizabeth Raynsford
Sir John Giffard's second wife appears in pedigrees as being the illegitimate daughter of Peter de Montfort - the last Baron Montfort and his mistress Lora da Ullenhale daughter of Rchard Astley of Ullenhale Warwick.

Does Alice de Montfort have a royal descent through her father? I thought the Montforts where descended from Hugh de Kevilioc whose illegitimate daughter married into the Mainwarings, thus giving them a descent from King Henry I.

Wouldn't this give Alice Giffard a royal line through either of her potential mothers?
John Higgins
2019-01-31 02:14:39 UTC
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Post by h***@yahoo.com
Rev Dexter is listed in Volume 1, Appendix VIII, pages clxxix-clxxi with a group of "Immigrants with Caveats, Some Aspect of Whose Royal Descent Merits Further Investigation." His possible descent from Ethelred II "the Unready" appears in Volume 2, pages 861-2 with sources on pages 862-3. The connection in question appears in generations 12 & 13.
12 Lucy de Morteyn=Sir John Giffard
13 Alice Giffard=Sir John Anne
14 Alice Anne=William Raynsford
15 Elizabeth Raynsford=Stephen Agard
16 Katherine Agard=Harold Kinnesman
17 Elizabeth Kinnesman=Thomas Dexter
18 Stephen Dexter=Anne Turland
19 Gregory Dexter=Isabel -----
20 Rev Gregory Dexter of R.I.=Abigail Fuller
The caveat that appears next to Sir John Anne's name indicates that Alice's maternity is uncertain, possibly a daughter of Sir John Giffard's second wife Alice de Montfort. At the end of the list of sources on page 863 Gary Boyd Roberts states that "A monograph on Alice (Gifford) Anne is much needed."
Stephen Agard in Generation 15 descends from Louis IV King of France. That line's covered on pages 874-875
19 Margery Throckmorton=Richard Middlemore
20 Elizabeth Middlemore=George Agard
21 Stephen Agard=Elizabeth Raynsford
It should be noted that the Throckmorton line mentioned above, on pages 874-875 of RD900, is also listed in Appendix VIII referred to above ("Immigrants with Caveats"). In the case of this line (and a couple of others), the issue is the old question of Millicent de Rethel and William de Camville. GBR seems to be not yet convinced that there's a problem with descents from Millicent de Rethel, as he includes the lines in the body of his book without noting any issue and just adds a note obscurely placed in the cited Appendix VIII saying that "Douglas Richardson, and perhaps other scholars" doubt the validity of this particular part of the descents. He then cites two sources not mentioned in the previous RD volumes: a reference to the notes of G. A. Moriarty, and an article by Moriarty in vol. 20 of TAG. Apparently GBR has not yet agreed with the conclusion of Douglas Richardson "and perhaps other scholars". ???
c***@gmail.com
2019-01-31 20:31:51 UTC
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On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 1:58:33 PM UTC-7, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
< Rev Dexter is listed in Volume 1, Appendix VIII, pages clxxix-clxxi with a
< group of "Immigrants with Caveats, Some Aspect of Whose Royal Descent Merits < Further Investigation." His possible descent from Ethelred II "the Unready" < appears in Volume 2, pages 861-2 with sources on pages 862-3. The
< connection in question appears in generations 12 & 13.
<
< 12 Lucy de Morteyn=Sir John Giffard
< 13 Alice Giffard=Sir John Anne

< The caveat that appears next to Sir John Anne's name indicates that Alice's < maternity is uncertain, possibly a daughter of Sir John Giffard's second
< wife Alice de Montfort. At the end of the list of sources on page 863 Gary < Boyd Roberts states that "A monograph on Alice (Gifford) Anne is much
< needed."

The claim in print that Alice Giffard, wife of Sir John Anne, is possibly the daughter of her father's second wife, Alice de Montfort, is easily disproven.

I've copied below my file account of Alice de Montfort and her successive marriages. I've cited all of my sources. Sir John Giffard was Alice's fourth of five husbands. She married her first husband, Fulk de Pembridge, before 1330–31, by which marriage she had one daughter, Alice, which child evidently died in childhood. As far as I know, she had no children by her subsequent marriages. Her fourth marriage to Sir John Giffard took place after 1357 and before Hilary term 1363.

Given that there is at least 26 years between her 1st marriage to Fulk de Pembridge and her 4th marriage to Sir John Giffard, one must presume she was past childbearing age when she contracted her marriage to Giffard.

If anyone has further particulars to add to the account below, I would be glad to hear from them.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + +

FULK DE PEMBRIDGE (or PENNEBRUGG), of Aylestone, Leicestershire, son and heir. He married after 29 April 1324 (date of fine) and before 1330–31 (date of lawsuit) ALICE DE MONTFORT, illegitimate daughter of Peter de Montfort, Knt., 3rd Lord Montfort, of Beaudesert, Warwickshire, Rememham, Berkshire, Gunthorpe (in Loudham), Nottinghamshire, Preston, Ridlington, and Uppingham, Rutland, etc., by his mistress, Lora de Ullenhall. They had one daughter, Alice. In 1324 Peter de Montfort settled the manors of Remenham, Berkshire and Ilmington, Warwickshire on himself and the heirs of his body, with remainder to his illegitimate son, John, son of Lora de Ullenhall, and his issue, in default to Alice, sister of John, etc. In 1330–31 John de Dene sued Fulk son of Fulk de Pennebrugg and Alice his wife and others in an assize of novel disseisin in cos. Northampton and Warwick. In Trinity term 1333 Maud widow of Fulk de Penebrugge sued Fulk son of Fulk de Penebrugge in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manor of Aylestone, Leicestershire, which the said Maud claimed for the term of her life. FULK DE PEMBRIDGE died in 1342. His widow, Alice, married (2nd) before 3 Nov. 1344 (date of fine) RICHARD DE NOWERS, of Totternhoe and Wymington, Bedfordshire, Irthlingborough and Podecote, Northamptonshire, Churchill, Oxfordshire, etc. In 1344 Thomas de Compton and another settled the manors of Mune (in Dymock), Gloucestershire and Castle Leigh (in Leigh), Worcestershire on Peter de Montfort for life, with remainder to Alice, wife of Richard le Nouers, for life, and after the decease of Alice, the manors to remain to Robert de Pembrugg and his heirs. In 1345 Richard and Alice his wife sued Robert de Penbrugge and Juliana his wife in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the third part of the manor of Aylestone, Leicestershire, which the said Alice claimed as dower by the dotation of Fulk de Penbrugge her former husband. RICHARD DE NOWERS died before 9 Feb. 1352. His widow, Alice, married (3rd) before Trinity term 1352 THOMAS DE LANGLEY, Knt., of Langley (in Shipton under Wychwood), Oxfordshire. In 1352 Thomas de Langeleye, Knt. and Alice his wife sued Robert de Penebrigge, Knt. in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the third part of the manor of Aylestone, Leicestershire, which Alice claimed of the dotation of Fulk de Penebrigge, her former husband. In 1354 Thomas and Alice his wife conveyed the manor of Churchill, Oxfordshire, which the said Alice held in dower, to John de Nowers, Knt. In 1357 Thomas de Williamscote and Margaret his wife conveyed one messuage, lands, and rent in Milton under Wychwood and Shipton under Wychwood, Oxfordshire to Thomas and Alice his wife and their heirs. His widow, Alice, married (4th) before Hilary term 1363 (date of lawsuit) JOHN GIFFARD, Knt., of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, Helliden and Tansor, Northamptonshire, etc. In 1363 Eleanor, Countess of Ormond, sued him in the Court of Common Pleas in a Buckinghamshire plea regarding a custody matter. The same year he and Alice his wife, executrix of Thomas de Langeleye, Knt., sued William Swalclyve in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £60. The same year he and Alice his wife sued Fulk de Pembridge in the Court of Common Pleas in a plea of dower. In 1365 he and his wife, Alice, executrix of the will of Thomas de Langleye, Knt., sued Andrew de Gildeford, of co. Middlesex, and another in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. In 1366 he and Alice his wife, executrix of the will of Thomas de Langele, Knt., sued John de [?Oftone] in the Court of Common Pleas regarding custody of Isabel, minor daughter and heiress of Eli de Iccombe. In 1377 his widow, Alice, sued William Goddes and Edithe his wife and others in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a trespass in Buckinghamshire. The same year Alice Giffard, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, sued William Gillam, of Buckingham, and another in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a trespass in Buckinghamshire. In 1378 John Peyntour, of Buckingham, owed Alice Giffard, lady of Twyford, Buckinghamshire a debt of £40. His widow, Alice, married (5th) before 8 October 1379 WILLIAM [DE] THYMELBY (or THIMELBY), of Boston, Lincolnshire, Mayor of the Staple of Boston, 1381. In 1383 John Waryn and Richard Monek, executors of the will of Thomas Waryn, of Fordingbridge, Hampshire, sued William and Alice his wife, executrix of the will of Thomas de Langeleye, of co. Oxford, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £20. The same year William and Alice his wife sued John Coket and John Brode, both of Buckingham, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £40. In 1385 he was appointed deputy for John Slegh, chief butler in the port of Boston, Lincolnshire. On 14 Feb. 1390 John Sale, of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, was pardoned for not appear to render £40 to Alice, widow and executrix of William Thymelby, of Boston, Lincolnshire.

References:

Colls. Hist. Staffs. 12 (1891): 109, 116–117. C.P.R. 1381–1385 (1897): 571. C.P.R. 1388–1392 (1902): 69. VCH Northampton 2 (1906): 596. VCH Worcester 4 (1924): 101–111. Trans. Leicestershire Arch. Soc. 17 (1932–33): 205–221. Cal. of Memoranda Rolls (Exchequer). Office: Michaelmas 1326–Michaelmas 1327 (1968): 82. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/295, image 41d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no295/bCP40no295dorses/IMG_0041.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/344, image 850d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no344/bCP40no344dorses/IMG_0850.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/412, image 695d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no412/bCP40no412dorses/IMG_0695.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/412, image 751d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no412/bCP40no412dorses/IMG_0751.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/414, image 322d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no414/bCP40no414dorses/IMG_0322.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/421, image 1660d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no421/bCP40no421dorses/IMG_1660.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/425, image 1393d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no425/bCP40no425dorses/IMG_1393.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/451, image 7f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no451/aCP40no451fronts/IMG_0007.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/490, image 150 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no490/490_0150.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/490, image 173 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no490/490_0173.htm). Exchequer of Pleas, E13no58, image 21 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/E3/E13no58/IMG_0021.htm). Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/1408, image 444f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no1408/aJUST1no1408fronts/IMG_0444.htm). National Archives, C 131/199/17; C 241/170/23; E 156/28/66 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). National Archives, CP 25/1/178/87, #55; CP 25/1/178/87, #56; CP 25/1/185/29, #191; CP 25/1/190/20, #7; CP 25/1/190/21, #25; CP 25/1/190/22, #28; CP 25/1/190/22, #29; CP 25/1/190/22, #30; CP 25/1/287/42, #367 [see abstract of fines at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html].

Child of Fulk de Pembridge, by Alice de Montfort:

a. ALICE DE PEMBRIDGE, daughter and heiress. In Michaelmas term 1350 and Easter term 1351 Alice, daughter of Fulk de Penebrugge, sued Richard de Whatton, Prior of Trentham, and Elizabeth, widow of Robert Corbet, of Hadley, executors of the will of the said Robert, regarding a debt of 40 marks. She evidently died without issue died before Hilary term 1352.

References:

Colls. Hist. Staffs. 12 (1891): 100, 104. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/363, image 993d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E3/CP40no363/bCP40no363dorses/IMG_0993.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/365, image 2657d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E3/CP40no365/bCP40no365dorses/IMG_2657.htm).
Michael Cayley
2019-03-29 21:06:45 UTC
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One addition on Alice de Montfort. In 1385 she was named as executor of the will of her last husband. The will was proved on 19 December 1385.<ref>Church of England. Diocese of Lincoln., Gibbons, A. W. (1888). ''Early Lincoln wills: An abstract of all the wills & administrations recorded in the Episcopal registers of the old diocese of Lincoln, comprising the counties of Lincoln, Rutland, Northampton, Huntington, Bedford, Buckingham, Oxford, Leicester, and Hertford, 1280-1547'', p.81. Lincoln: J. Williamson, printer. p. 81: https://archive.org/details/earlylincolnwil00gibbgoog/page/n93
c***@gmail.com
2019-03-29 23:15:23 UTC
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Here is four new lawsuits involving Alice de Montfort, widow of John Giffard, Knt., of Twyford, Buckinghamshire:

1. In 1381 Thomas Gifford, son of John Giffard, Knt., of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, sued Alice Gifford, widow of John Gifford, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding waste.

Reference:

Court of Common Pleas, CP40/483, image 65 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no483/483_0065.htm).

2. In 1382 William de Themylby and Alice his wife, late wife of John Giffard, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, sued John Done, Citizen of London, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £_.

Reference:
Court of Common Pleas, CP40/485, image 144 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no485/485_0144.htm).

3. In 1382 William de Thymulby and Alice his wife sued John atte Welle, of Panton, Lincolnshire, and Henry Hykkeman, of Charnedon, Buckinghamshire, in the Court of Common Pleas that they render a reasonable account of the time they were their receivers of money.

Reference:

Court of Common Pleas, CP40/485, image 145 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no485/485_0145.htm).

4. In 1382 William de Themylby and Alice his wife sued William Waldecote, of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £12.

Reference:

Court of Common Pleas, CP40/485, image 145 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no485/485_0145.htm).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
c***@gmail.com
2019-03-30 00:56:28 UTC
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Here are four new lawsuits involving Alice de Montfort, widow of John Giffard, Knt., of Twyford, Buckinghamshire:

1. In 1381 Thomas Gifford, son of John Giffard, Knt., of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, sued Alice Gifford, widow of John Gifford, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding waste.

Reference:

Court of Common Pleas, CP40/483, image 65 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no483/483_0065.htm).

2. In 1382 William de Themylby and Alice his wife, late wife of John Giffard, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, sued John Done, Citizen of London, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £_.

Reference:
Court of Common Pleas, CP40/485, image 144 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no485/485_0144.htm).

3. In 1382 William de Thymulby and Alice his wife sued John atte Welle, of Panton, Lincolnshire, and Henry Hykkeman, of Charnedon, Buckinghamshire, in the Court of Common Pleas that they render a reasonable account of the time they were their receivers of money.

Reference:

Court of Common Pleas, CP40/485, image 145 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no485/485_0145.htm).

4. In 1382 William de Themylby and Alice his wife sued William Waldecote, of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £12.

Reference:

Court of Common Pleas, CP40/485, image 145 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no485/485_0145.htm).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
j***@msn.com
2021-03-16 00:36:54 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
1. In 1381 Thomas Gifford, son of John Giffard, Knt., of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, sued Alice Gifford, widow of John Gifford, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding waste.
Court of Common Pleas, CP40/483, image 65 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no483/483_0065.htm).
2. In 1382 William de Themylby and Alice his wife, late wife of John Giffard, of Twyford, Buckinghamshire, sued John Done, Citizen of London, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £_.
Court of Common Pleas, CP40/485, image 144 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no485/485_0144.htm).
3. In 1382 William de Thymulby and Alice his wife sued John atte Welle, of Panton, Lincolnshire, and Henry Hykkeman, of Charnedon, Buckinghamshire, in the Court of Common Pleas that they render a reasonable account of the time they were their receivers of money.
Court of Common Pleas, CP40/485, image 145 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no485/485_0145.htm).
4. In 1382 William de Themylby and Alice his wife sued William Waldecote, of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £12.
Court of Common Pleas, CP40/485, image 145 (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT6/R2/CP40no485/485_0145.htm).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Is there evidence that Catherine Agard is the daughter of Stephen? I understood based on chronology she was more likely the daughter of George Agard and sister of Stephen. She is not mentioned among Stephen's many children in his will.
wjhonson
2021-03-16 16:37:33 UTC
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Stephen Dexter is called "aged 50" in 1608
Stephen Agard is "aged 9" in 1522

This is the meat of the issue
That tight chronology is not easily solvable so it's probably incorrect
ravinma...@yahoo.com
2021-03-17 17:33:09 UTC
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"Various family histories, including The Visitation of Northamptonshire Made in 1564 & 1618-19…, show Katherine Agard, wife of Harold Kinsman of Loddington, as the daughter of Stephen Agard. I think that Katherine was, instead, Stephen’s sister."

https://genealogyfiend.wordpress.com/2014/11/08/stephen-agard-esq-1513-1563-of-broughton-norths-will-dated-5-oct-1562/

It looks like Stephen did however have a daughter married to a different Mr. Kinsman, presumably related to Harold.
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