Discussion:
Sir Lewis de Clifford K.G. from Devon, son of Peter?
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Andrew Lancaster
2019-10-01 10:26:37 UTC
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Sir Lewis Clifford is a subject who comes up every now and then here. Over time I have to realize there are two bits of information which seem to have been spotted long ago but not well followed-up. Perhaps I am missing something here but it looks like we can state the following. Feedback requested:

1. Lewis was UNCLE to William Clifford the sheriff of Kent. The connection between the two is a subject of speculation with William even being called a son of Lewis. William's father, the brother of Lewis, was named Hugh.

This confirmed in various records involving none other than John Fastolf, and some legal problems he had in Norfolk. See:
*Common Pleas suit in 1410, De Banco, Mich. 25 Hen. VI, m. 557, reported by Wrotteseley in The Genealogist, N.S., vol. xviii, p.234 https://archive.org/details/genealogist1819selb/page/234
*Smith, Anthony Robert. "Aspects of the Career of Sir John Fastolf (1380-1459)." Trinity Term 1982. https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:82b30e31-1412-495b-bc5d-426dd6aac852/
*Bellewes, G.O. Ed. Harwood, H. W. Forsyth. "Savage of Bobbing Court, Kent." The Genealogist: New Series. Vol. XXIX. Pg. 207. https://archive.org/stream/genealogist2919selb#page/n435/mode/2up

The case is also mentioned in Paston letters.

2. As suggested by CP there are leads connecting Lewis to Devon. But I've come to realize how clear these leads are. In a 1917 article about Lewis's son Lewis, who probably died young, he makes an aside:
"In John of Gaunt's Register, March 21, 1373, we read "que les villes de Houxham, Colyn Johan et Stokes, sont a une honuree dame q'est taunte a nostre bien ame chivaler monsire Lowys de Clifford"

*Kittredge, G. L. “Lewis Chaucer or Lewis Clifford?” Modern Philology, vol. 14, no. 9, 1917, pp. 513–518. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/433151.

The first two manors are clearly Huxham, Columbjohn. There are many places called Stoke in the general area. Possibly many others have worked this out but I suddenly realized that we know enough to be able to identify a widow who was reputedly a Clifford, who might have been holding these exact manors in 1373: Joane, the widow of the younger Roger de Priaux, said to be a daughter of Peter Clifford.

I also now notice that Sir Lewis and the Devon Cliffords do not only appear together in the Register of John of Gaunt, but also in the Register of the Black Prince, who Lewis and the Devon Cliffords served earlier. (Both registers are online.) Peter Clifford is mentioned for example.

So possibly Lewis is the son of Peter Clifford?

I understand that this Devon family do descend from the original Herefordshire Cliffords, making them related to the more famous line.
Andrew Lancaster
2019-10-01 11:23:58 UTC
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What I have not found yet is any complete explanation of the Devon family, and the related Prideaux family in Devon. I do not for example have a copy of "House of Clifford" and I am not sure if it contains any missing links. What I have seen so far:
*Vivian's edition of Dover pedigrees, based on visitations and also other sources like Burkes. The Clifford pedigree unfortunately relies on Burkes and simply connects everything back to the Westmorland family. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=yale.39002002213917&view=1up&seq=209 The Prideaux shows Joane the daughter of Peter Clifford https://hdl.handle.net/2027/yale.39002002213917?urlappend=%3Bseq=630
*William Pole's Description of Devon contains sections about many relevant places, including this one about Columb John https://books.google.be/books?id=WF4OAAAAQAAJ&vq=clifford&pg=PA170
*Maclean's The parochial and family history of the deanery of Trigg Minor, in the county of Cornwall. See under Orcheton https://archive.org/details/cu31924081264826/page/n223 Pedigree here https://archive.org/details/cu31924081264826/page/n245
*A Prideaux blog page with no sourcing information https://www.aaprideaux.com/general/sir-roger-de-pridias-1294-1347/

Can anyone help find more of the puzzle?
c***@gmail.com
2019-10-01 17:22:29 UTC
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Dear Andrew ~

The original Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1446 involving Sir John Fastolf which you've cited in your post can be viewed at the following weblink:

Court of Common Pleas, CP40/743, image 1129f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no743/aCP40no743fronts/IMG_1129.htm).

As indicated by Wrottesley's published abstract of this case, the lawsuit specifically identifies Alexander Clifford as kinsman and heir of Sir Lewis Clifford, he being the son of Lewis, son of Lewis, son of William, son of Hugh, brother of the said Sir Lewis.

The 1446 lawsuit refers to an earlier grant made in 1384 by King Richard II to Sir Lewis Clifford of 24 marks yearly rent from a third of the manor of Hickling, Norfolk.

The original Hickling grant can be found at Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1381–1385 (1897): 477-478, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015009337612&view=1up&seq=489

As to your suggestion that Sir Lewis Clifford's unidentified aunt in 1373 was Joan (allegedly Clifford), widow of Roger Prideaux, this seems to be incorrect. Maclean, History of Trigg Minor 2 (1876): 200 shows that in 1322 Sir John de Clifford and Clarice his wife settled the manor of Combe-in-Teignhead, Devon on Roger Prideaux and Elizabeth their daughter and the heirs of their bodies. This manor subsequently descended in the Prideaux family.

Elizabeth de Clifford was almost certainly the heiress of her father as claimed by Maclean. My research indicates that the manors of Columbjohn, Eveleigh (in Broadclyst), Combe-in-Teignhead, Godford (in Awliscombe), and Stoke [Stoke Canon intended?], Devonshire were all earlier land holdings of the senior Clifford family of Devon. See my book Royal Ancestry, Volume One published in 2013 for further particulars. Columbjohn, Combe-in-Teignhead, and Godford were later held by the Prideaux family, presumably as the lineal heirs of the Clifford family.

Although Elizabeth de Clifford would be rather old in 1373, it's entirely possible that she was still living in that year. If so, it would appear that she was the aunt [taunte] of Sir Lewis Clifford living in 1373. However, the unnnamed aunt cannot in any case be Joan, the alleged 2nd wife of Roger Prideaux, as Joan would have had no rights to either Columbjohn or Stoke, they being Clifford lands. On Elizabeth de Clifford's death, all rights to her family lands would have been vested in her surviving husband or their sons, but not to her husband's 2nd wife, Joan.

Having said that, if Elizabeth de Clifford was the aunt of Sir Lewis Clifford living in 1373, it is difficult to explain, however, how she and not Sir Lewis was the heir of the Clifford family, unless Sir Lewis Clifford and his known brother, Hugh Clifford, were somehow heirs of the half-blood, or of illegitimate descent. A settlement could also divert an inheritance in this time period but, if the latter case is the explanation, a record would survive to document the flow of lands to the Prideaux family away from the male heirs of the Clifford family.

Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist
Andrew Lancaster
2019-10-01 21:21:08 UTC
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Thanks Douglas

Your response shows the importance of trying to get the Devon evidence together. What I understand so far (and please have a look at the links in my second post) however is that Joane the second wife claimed a dower and that the 3 manors named by John of Gaunt do not sound like any kind of inheritance as such. The Prideaux and Clifford families both had much more. So I am thinking this was a widow's residency "for life". I guess Stoke might be the one which is right next to the other two, forming a compact unit with them.

The heir of Roger and Elizabeth was clearly not Joane or Hugh, but Sir John de Prideaux, knight of the shire. (See his HOP bio.)

Does that make any sense to you and others?

Best Regards
Andrew
c***@gmail.com
2019-10-06 18:09:08 UTC
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Dear Andrew ~

With regard to the aunt of Sir Lewis Clifford living in 1373, my guess is that she was a Prideaux widow just as you think. However, the Prideaux widow who was seemingly living in 1373 was seemingly named Joan, not Elizabeth.

While it is tempting to think that Sir Lewis Clifford is the nephew of Elizabeth de Clifford who married the younger Roger Prideaux circa 1322, it's entirely possible that Sir Lewis had a double relationship to the Prideaux family. Sir Lewis could be related to the Prideaux family once through Elizabeth de Clifford, wife of Roger Prideaux, and related in a second manner through Joan de Bigbury, wife of the next Roger Prideaux. If so, then Sir Lewis Clifford actually might be the nephew of Joan de Bigbury, and not of Elizabeth de Clifford. This would suggest that Sir Lewis Clifford's mother could possibly be the sister of Joan de Bigbury, wife of Roger Prideaux the younger.

Insofar as the Prideaux-Bigbury connection is concerned, below is a Common Pleas lawsuit I came across today involving these very families. William, the minor son and heir of William de Bigbury, mentioned here was surely the son and heir of William de Bigbury who married in 1320 Maud, daughter of Giles de Brewes, Knt., of Buckingham, Buckinghamshire, and Woodlands (in Horton) and Knowlton, Dorset. Sir Thomas de Monthermer, one of the defendants, was, of course, the grandson of King Edward I. Sir Thomas' wife was a Brewes, which would explain his interest in young William de Bigbury.

Below is an abstract of the 1332 lawsuit:

In Easter term 1332 John de Chevereston sued Thomas de Monthermer, Knt., and Roger Prideaux, Knt., in the Court of Common Pleas in a Devon plea regarding custody of William son and heir of William de Bikebury, whose custody he claimed belonged to him.

Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/290, image 72d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no290/bCP40no290dorses/IMG_0072.htm).

Joan de Bigbury, wife of Roger Prideaux, is presumably the daughter of the William de Bigbury who was the minor named in 1332 lawsuit above.

With regard to other Clifford related items involving Devon in this time period, I note that in 1327 and 1328 John de Berkedon the younger sued Peter de Clifford in the Court of Common Pleas in a Devon plea regarding a debt. Reference: Index of Placita de Banco 1327–1328 1 (PRO Lists and Indexes 32) (1910): 93.

I presume that Peter de Clifford is closely related to Sir John de Clifford, living 1322, father of Elizabeth de Clifford, wife of Roger Prideaux. This Peter de Clifford might well be the father of Sir Lewis Clifford and his brother, Hugh.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Post by Andrew Lancaster
Thanks Douglas
Your response shows the importance of trying to get the Devon evidence together. What I understand so far (and please have a look at the links in my second post) however is that Joane the second wife claimed a dower and that the 3 manors named by John of Gaunt do not sound like any kind of inheritance as such. The Prideaux and Clifford families both had much more. So I am thinking this was a widow's residency "for life". I guess Stoke might be the one which is right next to the other two, forming a compact unit with them.
The heir of Roger and Elizabeth was clearly not Joane or Hugh, but Sir John de Prideaux, knight of the shire. (See his HOP bio.)
Does that make any sense to you and others?
Best Regards
Andrew
Andrew Lancaster
2019-10-07 21:40:03 UTC
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< Joan de Bigbury, wife of Roger Prideaux, is presumably the daughter of the < William de Bigbury who was the minor named in 1332 lawsuit above.
In my post just now, I suggested that Joan de Bigbury, wife of Roger Prideaux, was the daughter of William de Bigbury, which individual was a minor in 1332. Actually I think the chronology suggests that Joan de Bigbury was the sister of William de Bigbury, who was the minor in 1332. If so, it would mean that Joan and her brother William were both children of William de Bigbury who married Maud de Brewes in 1320.
If Joan de Bigbury was Sir Lewis Clifford's maternal aunt, it would in turn mean that Sir Lewis' maternal grandparents would be William de Bigbury and Maud de Brewes.
All hypothetical, of course.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Yes it is indeed by no means proven. However if we could trust the Vivian pedigree of Prideaux, it would look very likely. Obviously the Maclean one disagrees.

From some of the old secondary sources I have the impression that both the Bigburys and Trevardyns might have married both the Prideauxs and the Cliffords.

At least we can say that some of these secondary sources look encouraging, as if there might be more medieval evidence out there.
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