Discussion:
Roger of Poitou (the Poitevin)
(too old to reply)
Colin B. Withers
2010-08-07 12:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Taking the info on Roger of Poitou from Wikipediai,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_the_Poitevin
(although I would appreciate any corrections if the information there is suspect),
it would appear that Roger was around 8 years old at the time of the Conquest.

My interest lies in the family of Blanchard (Blancard in Domesday), where we are
told in the Lincolnshire section, that Blancard, Roger of Poitou's man, holds land
of Roger in Laughton, Audleby, and Nettleton. By the time of the Testa de Nevil
these manors and Knights Fees were held by Richard Blanchard.

Would you agree that is is probable that Blancard did NOT come with the Norman
invasion, given that Roger of Poitou would have been only 8 years old at the time,
and that it is more likely that he came subsequent to the invasion, following Roger,
after Roger's acquisition of the estates in Lincolnshire and other counties, which
according to the wiki (no reference given) was around 1074.

Does anyone have any ideas concerning the 1074 reference for Roger acquiring his
English estates, or any information concerning when Roger came to England?

Thanks

Wibs
John Watson
2010-08-08 01:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Taking the info on Roger of Poitou from Wikipediai,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_the_Poitevin
(although I would appreciate any corrections if the information there is suspect),
it would appear that Roger was around 8 years old at the time of the Conquest.
My interest lies in the family of Blanchard (Blancard in Domesday), where we are
told in the Lincolnshire section, that Blancard, Roger of Poitou's man, holds land
of Roger in Laughton, Audleby, and Nettleton. By the time of the Testa de Nevil
these manors and Knights Fees were held by Richard Blanchard.
Would you agree that is is probable that Blancard did NOT come with the Norman
invasion, given that Roger of Poitou would have been only 8 years old at the time,
and that it is more likely that he came subsequent to the invasion, following Roger,
after Roger's acquisition of the estates in Lincolnshire and other counties, which
according to the wiki (no reference given) was around 1074.
Does anyone have any ideas concerning the 1074 reference for Roger acquiring his
English estates, or any information concerning when Roger came to England?
Thanks
Wibs
Hi Colin,

It depends on what you mean by "come with the invasion". Roger le
Potevin's father, Roger de Montgomery is said to have first come to
England in December 1067 [1]. Roger's parents were married between
1051 and 1054 and as Roger le Potevin was the third son, it seems
likely that he was born between 1058 and 1060. Roger can only have
received his estates on coming of age - say around 1079 to 1082, so
the 1074 date appears to be a bit early.

Regards,

John

Sources:
1. Complete Peerage, Vol. 11, pp. 684-7
John Watson
2010-08-08 02:16:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Watson
Taking the info on Roger of Poitou from Wikipediai,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_the_Poitevin
(although I would appreciate any corrections if the information there is suspect),
it would appear that Roger was around 8 years old at the time of the Conquest.
My interest lies in the family of Blanchard (Blancard in Domesday), where we are
told in the Lincolnshire section, that Blancard, Roger of Poitou's man, holds land
of Roger in Laughton, Audleby, and Nettleton. By the time of the Testa de Nevil
these manors and Knights Fees were held by Richard Blanchard.
Would you agree that is is probable that Blancard did NOT come with the Norman
invasion, given that Roger of Poitou would have been only 8 years old at the time,
and that it is more likely that he came subsequent to the invasion, following Roger,
after Roger's acquisition of the estates in Lincolnshire and other counties, which
according to the wiki (no reference given) was around 1074.
Does anyone have any ideas concerning the 1074 reference for Roger acquiring his
English estates, or any information concerning when Roger came to England?
Thanks
Wibs
Hi Colin,
It depends on what you mean by "come with the invasion". Roger le
Potevin's father, Roger de Montgomery is said to have first come to
England in December 1067 [1]. Roger's parents were married between
1051 and 1054 and as Roger le Potevin was the third son, it seems
likely that he was born between 1058 and 1060. Roger can only have
received his estates on coming of age - say around 1079 to 1082, so
the 1074 date appears to be a bit early.
Regards,
John
1. Complete Peerage, Vol. 11, pp. 684-7
Hi Colin,

With regard to my earlier post, I now realise that Roger le Potevin
was actually the fourth son and that he had an elder brother, another
Roger who probably died around 1060-62 (ref. CP, 11, p. 690). Unless
his parents had two sons called Roger alive at the same time, it is
more likely that he was born after his elder brother's death. This
would push forward the dates when he received his English lands to
1082-84, very shortly before the Domesday survey. See also:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Nog9_GJqFZQC&pg=PA70 where it says
that he was in possession of his lands in Lancashire in the early
1080's.

Regards,

John
Colin B. Withers
2010-08-09 13:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Many thanks for the response John.

I now think the writer who first suggested 1074 believed that the large estates that Roger de Poitou came into came about due to the influence of his father, who was made Earl of Shrewsbury in 1074 (although even that date is subject to debate).

http://www.celtic-casimir.com/webtree/3/15312.htm

I do not think the author of the above website came up with the 1074 idea, as I have now seen it on many websites, and in some it has been expunged (remaining only in the Google cached copy).

I think your reasoning that he could not have come into any estates until he was of age is much nearer the mark, as is your assessment of his likely year of birth.

Thanks also for the reference to his Lancashire lands, although it does make me laugh when I read on one website that William the Conqueror gave lands in Lancashire to Roger of Poitou because of his support at the invasion of 1066! He must have been shaking his rattle at those pesky Saxons :)

http://www.manchester2002-uk.com/history/old-families4a.html

Wibs


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com [mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Watson
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 4:17 AM
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Roger of Poitou (the Poitevin)
Post by John Watson
Taking the info on Roger of Poitou from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_the_Poitevin
(although I would appreciate any corrections if the information there is suspect),
it would appear that Roger was around 8 years old at the time of the Conquest.
My interest lies in the family of Blanchard (Blancard in Domesday), where we are
told in the Lincolnshire section, that Blancard, Roger of Poitou's man, holds land
of Roger in Laughton, Audleby, and Nettleton. By the time of the Testa de Nevil
these manors and Knights Fees were held by Richard Blanchard.
Would you agree that is is probable that Blancard did NOT come with the Norman
invasion, given that Roger of Poitou would have been only 8 years old at the time,
and that it is more likely that he came subsequent to the invasion, following Roger,
after Roger's acquisition of the estates in Lincolnshire and other counties, which
according to the wiki (no reference given) was around 1074.
Does anyone have any ideas concerning the 1074 reference for Roger acquiring his
English estates, or any information concerning when Roger came to England?
Thanks
Wibs
Hi Colin,
It depends on what you mean by "come with the invasion". Roger le
Potevin's father, Roger de Montgomery is said to have first come to
England in December 1067 [1]. Roger's parents were married between
1051 and 1054 and as Roger le Potevin was the third son, it seems
likely that he was born between 1058 and 1060. Roger can only have
received his estates on coming of age - say around 1079 to 1082, so
the 1074 date appears to be a bit early.
Regards,
John
1. Complete Peerage, Vol. 11, pp. 684-7
Hi Colin,

With regard to my earlier post, I now realise that Roger le Potevin
was actually the fourth son and that he had an elder brother, another
Roger who probably died around 1060-62 (ref. CP, 11, p. 690). Unless
his parents had two sons called Roger alive at the same time, it is
more likely that he was born after his elder brother's death. This
would push forward the dates when he received his English lands to
1082-84, very shortly before the Domesday survey. See also:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Nog9_GJqFZQC&pg=PA70 where it says
that he was in possession of his lands in Lancashire in the early
1080's.

Regards,

John

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Matt Tompkins
2010-08-09 14:01:38 UTC
Permalink
Taking the info on Roger of Poitou from Wikipediai,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_the_Poitevin
(although I would appreciate any corrections if the information there is suspect),
it would appear that Roger was around 8 years old at the time of the Conquest.
My interest lies in the family of Blanchard (Blancard in Domesday), where we are
told in the Lincolnshire section, that Blancard, Roger of Poitou's man, holds land
of Roger in Laughton, Audleby, and Nettleton. By the time of the Testa de Nevil
these manors and Knights Fees were held by Richard Blanchard.
Would you agree that is is probable that Blancard did NOT come with the Norman
invasion, given that Roger of Poitou would have been only 8 years old at the time,
and that it is more likely that he came subsequent to the invasion, following Roger,
after Roger's acquisition of the estates in Lincolnshire and other counties, which
according to the wiki (no reference given) was around 1074.
Does anyone have any ideas concerning the 1074 reference for Roger acquiring his
English estates, or any information concerning when Roger came to England?
By coincidence I was reading something relevant to this on the bus
this morning. Majorie Chibnall, in 'Anglo-Norman England
1066-1166' (Oxford, 1986), at pp. 51-2, says that the Domesday Book
holdings between Ribble and Mersey, including those of Roger the
Poitevin, were created after the Scottish invasion of 1079, as a means
of strengthening the northern border against the Scots.

She also mentions that as these holdings comprised not only 'compact
fees around their principal castles' but also 'extensive estates in
the more peaceful and productive English shires to support their
military establishments', which would explain Roger the Poitevin's
Lincolnshire holdings where Blanchard was one of his subtenants.

Chibnall's footnote for this passage refers to WE Kapelle, 'The Norman
Conquest of the North' (London, 1979), p120.

A little lower down she continues:

'Recent changes in tenure recorded in Domesday Book suggest that the
grant of some of these northern lordships came relatively late in the
reign [William I's]. Roger the Poitevin, indeed, can scarcely have
been old enough to carry conquest into a disturbed region before about
1080.'

Matt Tompkins
Matt Tompkins
2010-08-09 14:23:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Tompkins
Chibnall's footnote for this passage refers to WE Kapelle, 'The Norman
Conquest of the North' (London, 1979), p120.
Kapelle has a rather amusing passage about Roger the Poitevin's
subtenants at p. 223, where he suggests that the Normans all loathed
Lancashire so much (principally on account of the oaten bread eaten
there, it appears) that he could only find a few, and those he did
find all left pretty quickly.

Matt Tompkins
Colin B. Withers
2010-08-09 14:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Interesting indeed. I have often wondered by what mechanism the Norman Lords tenanted their estates in England before Domesday, given the high number of Norman names listed as sub-tenants. Where these sub-tenants (or their descendents) the remains of the Norman army, or were they more likely the younger brothers of the tenants the Norman Lords had back in Normandy and elsewhere?

Presumeably they would have usurped the previous Saxon sub-tenants, and to what extent were they then resented? What about the language barrier when trying to assimilate into the local community?

All good fun, and I am looking forward to exploring these issues.

Wibs

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com [mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Matt Tompkins
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 4:23 PM
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Roger of Poitou (the Poitevin)
Post by Matt Tompkins
Chibnall's footnote for this passage refers to WE Kapelle, 'The Norman
Conquest of the North' (London, 1979), p120.
Kapelle has a rather amusing passage about Roger the Poitevin's
subtenants at p. 223, where he suggests that the Normans all loathed
Lancashire so much (principally on account of the oaten bread eaten
there, it appears) that he could only find a few, and those he did
find all left pretty quickly.

Matt Tompkins

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Matt Tompkins
2010-08-09 15:14:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Colin B. Withers
Interesting indeed. I have often wondered by what mechanism the Norman Lords tenanted their estates in England before Domesday, given the high number of Norman names listed as sub-tenants. Where these sub-tenants (or their descendents) the remains of the Norman army, or were they more likely the younger brothers of the tenants the Norman Lords had back in Normandy and elsewhere?
Presumeably they would have usurped the previous Saxon sub-tenants, and to what extent were they then resented? What about the language barrier when trying to assimilate into the local community?
I think the under-tenants were probably both knights from the conquest
army and tenants/younger brothers of tenants back in Normandy,
sometimes in the same person. But it has been noticed that the
proportion of native subtenants in Domesday is much higher in
Lancashire and Yorkshire, especially in the hills, than further
south. It has been suggested that this may not have been solely due
to a shortage of Norman or Breton knights, but may also have reflected
a need for a different type of soldier in the hill country.

Ann Williams' 'The English and the Norman Conquest' (Woodbridge, 1995)
is a good starting point for looking into the effect of the conquest
on the English landholding lcass, and subsequent assimilation.

Matt
Colin B. Withers
2010-08-09 14:27:08 UTC
Permalink
Many thanks for that Matt.

In fact the Domesday section that does cover part of what is now Lancashire (Amounderness) states that it is attributed to Earl Tostig, but at the end it is written, 'Roger de Poitou had them',
http://thorntonthroughtime.co.uk/RogerdePoitou.aspx

Another site which deals with Roger of Poitou again uses the 1074 date for his acquisition of his estates (but fortunately also gives some reference works that I can check):

*Victoria Chandler, "The Last of the Montgomerys: Roger the Poitevin and Arnulf", "Historical Research", 62 (1989) 1-14
* C. P. Lewis, "The King and Eye: A Study in Anglo-Norman Politics", "English Historical Review", 104 (1989) 569-87
* Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom by G. E. Cokayne, Page: IV: Appendix I, 762-5

It then goes on to state that Roger got the bulk of his Lancashire estate in 1092

http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/324792

This will take some sorting out, and of course today's writers and researchers have access to so much more material.

Thanks again

Wibs

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com [mailto:gen-medieval-***@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Matt Tompkins
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 4:02 PM
To: gen-***@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Roger of Poitou (the Poitevin)
Taking the info on Roger of Poitou from Wikipediai,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_the_Poitevin
(although I would appreciate any corrections if the information there is suspect),
it would appear that Roger was around 8 years old at the time of the Conquest.
My interest lies in the family of Blanchard (Blancard in Domesday), where we are
told in the Lincolnshire section, that Blancard, Roger of Poitou's man, holds land
of Roger in Laughton, Audleby, and Nettleton. By the time of the Testa de Nevil
these manors and Knights Fees were held by Richard Blanchard.
Would you agree that is is probable that Blancard did NOT come with the Norman
invasion, given that Roger of Poitou would have been only 8 years old at the time,
and that it is more likely that he came subsequent to the invasion, following Roger,
after Roger's acquisition of the estates in Lincolnshire and other counties, which
according to the wiki (no reference given) was around 1074.
Does anyone have any ideas concerning the 1074 reference for Roger acquiring his
English estates, or any information concerning when Roger came to England?
By coincidence I was reading something relevant to this on the bus
this morning. Majorie Chibnall, in 'Anglo-Norman England
1066-1166' (Oxford, 1986), at pp. 51-2, says that the Domesday Book
holdings between Ribble and Mersey, including those of Roger the
Poitevin, were created after the Scottish invasion of 1079, as a means
of strengthening the northern border against the Scots.

She also mentions that as these holdings comprised not only 'compact
fees around their principal castles' but also 'extensive estates in
the more peaceful and productive English shires to support their
military establishments', which would explain Roger the Poitevin's
Lincolnshire holdings where Blanchard was one of his subtenants.

Chibnall's footnote for this passage refers to WE Kapelle, 'The Norman
Conquest of the North' (London, 1979), p120.

A little lower down she continues:

'Recent changes in tenure recorded in Domesday Book suggest that the
grant of some of these northern lordships came relatively late in the
reign [William I's]. Roger the Poitevin, indeed, can scarcely have
been old enough to carry conquest into a disturbed region before about
1080.'

Matt Tompkins

-------------------------------
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Matt Tompkins
2010-08-09 15:04:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Colin B. Withers
Many thanks for that Matt.
In fact the Domesday section that does cover part of what is now Lancashire (Amounderness) states that it is attributed to Earl Tostig, but at the end it is written, 'Roger de Poitou had them',http://thorntonthroughtime.co.uk/RogerdePoitou.aspx
*Victoria Chandler, "The Last of the Montgomerys: Roger the Poitevin and Arnulf", "Historical Research", 62 (1989) 1-14
* C. P. Lewis, "The King and Eye: A Study in Anglo-Norman Politics", "English Historical Review", 104 (1989) 569-87
* Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom by G. E. Cokayne, Page: IV: Appendix I, 762-5
It then goes on to state that Roger got the bulk of his Lancashire estate in 1092
http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/324792
This will take some sorting out, and of course today's writers and researchers have access to so much more material.
I earlier glanced briefly at the Introduction to the Alecto edition of
the Lancashire Domesday, which says it is generally supposed that
Roger the Poitevin was deprived of his Lancashire estates in or just
before 1086, but later had them restored to him. I'm afraid I don't
recall the exact details (except that there is some uncertainty as to
exactly what happened), but that presumably accounts for the statement
that he got most of his Lancashire estate in 1092 (though I think by
1092 might be more accurate).

Matt
B***@hotmail.com
2021-05-15 12:14:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Colin B. Withers
Taking the info on Roger of Poitou from Wikipediai,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_the_Poitevin
(although I would appreciate any corrections if the information there is suspect),
it would appear that Roger was around 8 years old at the time of the Conquest.
My interest lies in the family of Blanchard (Blancard in Domesday), where we are
told in the Lincolnshire section, that Blancard, Roger of Poitou's man, holds land
of Roger in Laughton, Audleby, and Nettleton. By the time of the Testa de Nevil
these manors and Knights Fees were held by Richard Blanchard.
Would you agree that is is probable that Blancard did NOT come with the Norman
invasion, given that Roger of Poitou would have been only 8 years old at the time,
and that it is more likely that he came subsequent to the invasion, following Roger,
after Roger's acquisition of the estates in Lincolnshire and other counties, which
according to the wiki (no reference given) was around 1074.
Does anyone have any ideas concerning the 1074 reference for Roger acquiring his
English estates, or any information concerning when Roger came to England?
Thanks
Wibs
In my own research regarding the Lords of Bowland and Clitheroe castle I have the following information. I visited Lancaster castle and the docet said that Roger Poitou had founded it at age nice. I found that questionable. I believe he was at Hastings and supposedly held the center lines (not very well as the Normans used those to envelope the Saxons). He went north with King William during the Harrying of the north. Those Bowland and Craven lands had be held by Harold's brother Tostig Godwinson. William gave them to Poitou and I cite the following from Whiterker: “As the “Castellatus Rogeri” (Castle of Roger Poitou) is expressly mentioned in Doomsday, and the Castle of Lancaster was not in existence, there can be little doubt that Roger of Poitou was the real founder of the Castle of Clitheroe. Nothing more appears to have been intended by the founder, then to provide a temporary retreat for his dependents from the predatory incursions of the Scots, or a temporary retreat or temporary residence for himself when business called him to this part of his domain-Thomas Whitaker, History of the Honor of Clitheroe.

“Their is no real evidence for the suggestion that Roger of Poitou built it” (ie. the castle). The Lacy Family in England and Normandy 1066-1194, W.E. Wightman-1966.

Roger Poitou had been given control of all the lands lying between the Mersey and the Ribble as well as the Craven district of what is now Yorkshire by William, King of England, Duke of Normandy after the harrying of the north. In all, it is estimated he was in control of three hundred and ninety eight manors and Roger ranked among the so called ‘Capitales Barons’ holding immediately from the crown of William. He built Lancaster Castle as his administrative seat.

However, his participation in a disastrous rebellion against Henry I, led by Robert Curthose, Duke of Normandy, would lead to the end of his lands and power in 1102. He was forced to leave the country and return to Normandy. Henry l st. retrieved his lands and sub feuded the Honor of Clitheroe to Robert de Lacy that same year. Robert immediately in turn did the same for Ralph the Red through associated granted manors in and around Clitheroe.
Peter Stewart
2021-05-15 23:54:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by B***@hotmail.com
Post by Colin B. Withers
Taking the info on Roger of Poitou from Wikipediai,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_the_Poitevin
(although I would appreciate any corrections if the information there is suspect),
it would appear that Roger was around 8 years old at the time of the Conquest.
My interest lies in the family of Blanchard (Blancard in Domesday), where we are
told in the Lincolnshire section, that Blancard, Roger of Poitou's man, holds land
of Roger in Laughton, Audleby, and Nettleton. By the time of the Testa de Nevil
these manors and Knights Fees were held by Richard Blanchard.
Would you agree that is is probable that Blancard did NOT come with the Norman
invasion, given that Roger of Poitou would have been only 8 years old at the time,
and that it is more likely that he came subsequent to the invasion, following Roger,
after Roger's acquisition of the estates in Lincolnshire and other counties, which
according to the wiki (no reference given) was around 1074.
Does anyone have any ideas concerning the 1074 reference for Roger acquiring his
English estates, or any information concerning when Roger came to England?
Thanks
Wibs
In my own research regarding the Lords of Bowland and Clitheroe castle I have the following information. I visited Lancaster castle and the docet said that Roger Poitou had founded it at age nice. I found that questionable. I believe he was at Hastings and supposedly held the center lines (not very well as the Normans used those to envelope the Saxons).
This is not at all likely, unless there was a crèche in the middle of
the battlefield and someone there was looking after the highly
precocious but militarily inexperienced infant Roger for his father, who
was otherwise occupied at home in Normandy.

Roger the Poitevin is presumed to have been born in the 1060s because he
was the fourth son and probably sixth child of his parents and their
eldest, also named Roger, called a little boy in the 1050s, died in the
early 1060s. It is probable that Roger the Poitevin was given the same
name when he was born after this misfortune, not before. He does not
occur in records until the 1080s.

Peter Stewart

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