Discussion:
Carl Sabelskjöld's daughters: Noble and royal gateways for Swedes
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Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-05-20 11:25:06 UTC
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http://www.sabelskjold.com/society/about_us.htm has a good account of this. Carl Sabelskjöld was a Swedish noble, with several royal descents through his paternal grandmother. Some of his lands were expropriated during the Great Partition, putting him and his wife in financial difficulties. With his death in the Livonian War, the situation got even worse. His wife lost their estate and all their 6 daughters had to marry local farmers. 5 of them still have living descendants. Many Swedes are descended from them. As shown in Genealogics, Greta Garbo was descended from one of them.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-05-20 11:29:41 UTC
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Apologies for a mistake. He died in war in Livonia but Livonian War is not the correct term for that war. It was the Great Northern War.
John Higgins
2020-05-20 22:39:15 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
http://www.sabelskjold.com/society/about_us.htm has a good account of this. Carl Sabelskjöld was a Swedish noble, with several royal descents through his paternal grandmother. Some of his lands were expropriated during the Great Partition, putting him and his wife in financial difficulties. With his death in the Livonian War, the situation got even worse. His wife lost their estate and all their 6 daughters had to marry local farmers. 5 of them still have living descendants. Many Swedes are descended from them. As shown in Genealogics, Greta Garbo was descended from one of them.
So...give us a hint. which royalty are these "several royal descents from"?
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-05-20 22:46:41 UTC
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Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
http://www.sabelskjold.com/society/about_us.htm has a good account of this. Carl Sabelskjöld was a Swedish noble, with several royal descents through his paternal grandmother. Some of his lands were expropriated during the Great Partition, putting him and his wife in financial difficulties. With his death in the Livonian War, the situation got even worse. His wife lost their estate and all their 6 daughters had to marry local farmers. 5 of them still have living descendants. Many Swedes are descended from them. As shown in Genealogics, Greta Garbo was descended from one of them.
So...give us a hint. which royalty are these "several royal descents from"?
You can see his grandmother's ancestry in
https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00549379&tree=LEO. One of the kings in her ancestry is Canute IV of Denmark.
m***@gmail.com
2020-07-02 06:06:22 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by John Higgins
which royalty are these "several royal descents
his grandmother's ancestry
This, however, is a relatively narrow descent pattern from royalty. It all comes from a certain Finnish noblewoman of the 1500s, Metta Tynintytär, daughter of a nobleman who got beheaded - and had served, in Finland, as castellan of Viipuri and castellan of Raasepori. It comes from no one else in the Sabelskiöld ancestry.

The most reliable of those medieval roots from royalty, in my assessment, is the one from Agnes Hakonsdottir, the natural child of King Haakon V of Norway. King Haakon's mother, queen Ingeborg, is descended from Roman Emperors of Constantinople and from several other high-medieval and early-medieval lesser monarchs, such as several kings.

Worth to observe: there is no late-medieval royal in this ancestry, nor any post-medieval royals.
This is part of a pattern that 'everyone' has early-medieval royals in ancestry. But no royal of late-medieval centuries, because such era is too recent.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-07-03 00:05:57 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by John Higgins
which royalty are these "several royal descents
his grandmother's ancestry
This, however, is a relatively narrow descent pattern from royalty. It all comes from a certain Finnish noblewoman of the 1500s, Metta Tynintytär, daughter of a nobleman who got beheaded - and had served, in Finland, as castellan of Viipuri and castellan of Raasepori. It comes from no one else in the Sabelskiöld ancestry.
The most reliable of those medieval roots from royalty, in my assessment, is the one from Agnes Hakonsdottir, the natural child of King Haakon V of Norway. King Haakon's mother, queen Ingeborg, is descended from Roman Emperors of Constantinople and from several other high-medieval and early-medieval lesser monarchs, such as several kings.
Worth to observe: there is no late-medieval royal in this ancestry, nor any post-medieval royals.
This is part of a pattern that 'everyone' has early-medieval royals in ancestry. But no royal of late-medieval centuries, because such era is too recent.
Thanks for pointing the Haakon V descent out to me.
I said "several royal descents" because the woman in question does have several ones, albeit distant ones. She has several descents from Canute IV.
m***@gmail.com
2020-07-03 00:19:20 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
several descents from Canute IV.
rhetorical question: Do you happen to know what is the uncertainty common to all her claimed descents from King Knud IV
?
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-07-03 00:29:08 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
several descents from Canute IV.
rhetorical question: Do you happen to know what is the uncertainty common to all her claimed descents from King Knud IV
?
This is a rethorical question, but I must admit I'm not certain what you're refering to. Are you refering to the fact that the Folkunga genealogies have too long chronologies? 2 generations for 100 years and 3 generations for 150 years or more, in some cases
Even then, we can still be certain that all Folkunga somehow descended from Folke and Ingegerd, daughter of Canute IV.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-07-03 00:35:45 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
several descents from Canute IV.
rhetorical question: Do you happen to know what is the uncertainty common to all her claimed descents from King Knud IV
?
You said it was a rhetorical question, but I must admit I'm not certain what you're refering to. Are you refering to the fact that the Folkunga genealogies have too long chronologies? 2 generations for 100 years and 3 generations for 150 years or more, in some cases
Even then, we can still be certain that all Folkunga somehow descended from Folke and Ingegerd, daughter of Canute IV.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-07-03 00:52:32 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
several descents from Canute IV.
rhetorical question: Do you happen to know what is the uncertainty common to all her claimed descents from King Knud IV
?
You said it was a rhetorical question, but I must admit I'm not certain what you're refering to. Are you refering to the fact that the Folkunga genealogies have too long chronologies? 2 generations for 100 years and 3 generations for 150 years or more, in some cases
Even then, we can still be certain that all Folkunga were somehow descended from Folke and Ingegerd, daughter of Canute IV.
P J Evans
2020-07-03 01:16:45 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
several descents from Canute IV.
rhetorical question: Do you happen to know what is the uncertainty common to all her claimed descents from King Knud IV
?
You said it was a rhetorical question, but I must admit I'm not certain what you're refering to. Are you refering to the fact that the Folkunga genealogies have too long chronologies? 2 generations for 100 years and 3 generations for 150 years or more, in some cases
Even then, we can still be certain that all Folkunga were somehow descended from Folke and Ingegerd, daughter of Canute IV.
Way too long for that many generations, and what we know is that they all *claimed* to be descendants of Folke and Ingegerd.
m***@gmail.com
2020-07-03 01:28:16 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
several descents from Canute IV.
rhetorical question: the uncertainty common to all her claimed descents
For medieval genealogists, the pivotal uncertainty is whether Ingegerd is daughter of Edel of Flanders or daughter of a concubine or something like that.

Smaller uncertanties are the truthfulness of the descent of all the branches claiming descent from Ingegerd. After all, 'Folkunga' was, in those days of civil warring etc, in reality a sort of name for a party, political group.
We can be sufficiently convinced that Birger jarl is directly descended from Folke.
Are there any other very convincing descents??
Peter Stewart
2020-07-03 02:24:31 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
several descents from Canute IV.
rhetorical question: the uncertainty common to all her claimed descents
For medieval genealogists, the pivotal uncertainty is whether Ingegerd is daughter of Edel of Flanders or daughter of a concubine or something like that.
Some medieval genealogists apparently pivot on imaginary uncertainties:
how could one of the twin girls left behind in Denmark by Adela (that
is, Ingegerd and Cecilia) have become mother to a contender for the
countship of Flanders if they were daughters of "a concubine or
something like that" and not of Adela herself?

Peter Stewart
m***@gmail.com
2020-07-03 02:41:18 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
several descents from Canute IV.
rhetorical question: the uncertainty common to all her claimed descents
For medieval genealogists, the pivotal uncertainty is whether Ingegerd is daughter of Edel of Flanders or daughter of a concubine or something like that.
how could one of the twin girls left behind in Denmark by Adela (that
is, Ingegerd and Cecilia) have become mother to a contender for the
countship of Flanders if they were daughters of "a concubine or
something like that" and not of Adela herself?
Peter Stewart
Firstly, such a contender could derive a claim as being half-sister's son of Carl Knudsen (Charles), regnant count of Flanders. (He is son of Edel, that's not at issue.)
Secondly, the said contender was not widely accepted in Flanders.
Thirdly, there was at the time also some suspicion about the contender. Being impostor or whatnot.

The contender Arnulf/Ulf/?? is not counted among the counts who reigned Flanders.

Several publications have expressed doubt of the maternity of those two girls. And a real treatise was published about the issue; its author arrived to accept the maternity.
Peter Stewart
2020-07-03 04:28:07 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Stewart
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
several descents from Canute IV.
rhetorical question: the uncertainty common to all her claimed descents
For medieval genealogists, the pivotal uncertainty is whether Ingegerd is daughter of Edel of Flanders or daughter of a concubine or something like that.
how could one of the twin girls left behind in Denmark by Adela (that
is, Ingegerd and Cecilia) have become mother to a contender for the
countship of Flanders if they were daughters of "a concubine or
something like that" and not of Adela herself?
Peter Stewart
Firstly, such a contender could derive a claim as being half-sister's son of Carl Knudsen (Charles), regnant count of Flanders. (He is son of Edel, that's not at issue.)
Secondly, the said contender was not widely accepted in Flanders.
Thirdly, there was at the time also some suspicion about the contender. Being impostor or whatnot.
The contender Arnulf/Ulf/?? is not counted among the counts who reigned Flanders.
Several publications have expressed doubt of the maternity of those two girls. And a real treatise was published about the issue; its author arrived to accept the maternity.
His name was Arnold or Arnulf, and he is explicitly described as son of
Count Charles' elder sister in Flandria generosa ("Arnoldum scilicet,
nepotem Karoli ex sorore eius primogenita"). He is described as nephew
of Charles by Walter of Thérouanne when he presented himself as a
candidate to Loius VI at Arras in March 1127 ("plures, qui sibi
comitatum terre nostre competere assererent, Arnulfus scilicet nepos
domni Karoli, Balduinus Montensis, et prefati Guillelmi, qui iam partem
terre nostre prelibatam violenter tenebat, nuntii frequentes hoc ipsum
expetentes ad regem venissent"). Galbert of Bruges also called him
nephew of Charles when the citizens of Saint-Omer did homage to him in
opposition to William Clito of Normany ("At cives subintroduxerant
Arnoldum, nepotem Karoli consulis, et hominia ei fecerant et
securitates, si forte perduraret comes novus in injusta obsidione, ad
illum Arnoldum se converterent").

These sources and the perfectly cogent narrative behind them, augmented
by Saxo Grammaticus relating that Adela left twin daughters behind in
1092 ("regina patriam cum filio impubere repetit, geminis post se
relictis filiabus" - named as Ingertha and Caecilia) are not to be
turned into nonsense by suggesting that he might have been a concubine's
son and not Adela's, no matter what "several publications" have proposed.

Medieval genealogy does not pivot on make-weight expressions of doubt
where none is warranted.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2020-07-03 04:30:12 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
These sources and the perfectly cogent narrative behind them, augmented
by Saxo Grammaticus relating that Adela left twin daughters behind in
1092 ("regina patriam cum filio impubere repetit, geminis post se
relictis filiabus" - named as Ingertha and Caecilia) are not to be
turned into nonsense by suggesting that he might have been a concubine's
son and not Adela's, no matter what "several publications" have proposed.
Correction: "not to be turned into nonsense by suggesting that he might
have been a concubine's grandson and not Adela's ...".

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2020-07-03 06:53:21 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Peter Stewart
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
several descents from Canute IV.
rhetorical question: the uncertainty common to all her claimed descents
For medieval genealogists, the pivotal uncertainty is whether Ingegerd is daughter of Edel of Flanders or daughter of a concubine or something like that.
how could one of the twin girls left behind in Denmark by Adela (that
is, Ingegerd and Cecilia) have become mother to a contender for the
countship of Flanders if they were daughters of "a concubine or
something like that" and not of Adela herself?
Peter Stewart
Firstly, such a contender could derive a claim as being half-sister's son of Carl Knudsen (Charles), regnant count of Flanders. (He is son of Edel, that's not at issue.)
Where do you find such a claim made by any illegitimate half-blood
relative of a dead count otherwise unconnected to the comital family
from which he had derived his own right of inheritance?
Post by m***@gmail.com
Secondly, the said contender was not widely accepted in Flanders.
Nor were others of unquestioned ancestry.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Thirdly, there was at the time also some suspicion about the contender. Being impostor or whatnot.
Where do you find contemporary suspicion of his identity? There is
evidently none in the sources I have quoted.
Post by m***@gmail.com
The contender Arnulf/Ulf/?? is not counted among the counts who reigned Flanders.
No-one said he was ever the reigning count - after his brief acceptance
at Saint-Omer he was forced by William Clito to leave Flanders and
abandon his claim according to Flandria generosa ("Arnoldum exire coegit
et ius totius Flandrie abiurare", written in the 1160s). Presumably he
had been already there, at the court his maternal uncle Charles, when
the latter was murdered given how soon afterwards he pressed his claim.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Several publications have expressed doubt of the maternity of those two girls. And a real treatise was published about the issue; its author arrived to accept the maternity.
So why doesn't this acceptance of the obvious satisfy you?

Peter Stewart

Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-07-03 00:24:59 UTC
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BTW, I've found out that Greta Garbo has another link to nobility and royalty. Starting in https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Gustafsson-Family-Tree-535 and then https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Fredriksson-Family-Tree-100, you can see her father's male line descent from Maria Catharina Alfort. She was a noblewoman, married a farmhand and was disowned for doing so, as explained in http://familjenalfort.se/kapitel6/18339. Then, follow https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Fahnehielm-Family-Tree-1. Finally, see https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00383618&tree=LEO. Margareta Olofsdotter's pedigree is far more at Genealogics complete there than at Wikitree.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-07-03 00:26:11 UTC
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BTW, I've found out that Greta Garbo has another link to nobility and royalty. Starting in https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Gustafsson-Family-Tree-535 and then https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Fredriksson-Family-Tree-100, you can see her father's male line descent from Maria Catharina Alfort. She was a noblewoman, married a farmhand and was disowned for doing so, as explained in http://familjenalfort.se/kapitel6/18339. Then, follow https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Fahnehielm-Family-Tree-1. Finally, see https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00383618&tree=LEO. Margareta Olofsdotter's pedigree is far more complete at Genealogics than at Wikitree.
m***@gmail.com
2020-07-03 00:30:14 UTC
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On Friday, July 3, 2020 at 3:26:12 AM UTC+3, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00383618&tree=LEO. Margareta Olofsdotter's pedigree is far more complete at Genealogics


The pedigree is that highly complete because I have provided most of those completions there.
m***@gmail.com
2020-07-03 01:30:47 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Margareta Olofsdotter's pedigree
rhetorical question: wide or narrow descent from Folke?
uncertain point in the royal descent?
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