Discussion:
Some Descendants of Alice Talbot, Dame Barre
(too old to reply)
Brad Verity
2005-07-24 17:48:43 UTC
Permalink
Alice Talbot, the third daughter of Richard, 4th Lord Talbot, and
Ankaret, Lady Strange of Blakemere, is a key gateway for the
Herefordshire gentry to a descent from Edward I. For the eleven
families descended from her by 1500 listed below, she is the only link
to such a descent for all but one.

She was born 1389/93, and was a younger sister of John Talbot, the 1st
Earl of Shrewsbury. In 1412, her widowed mother arranged her marriage
to Sir Thomas Barre, 'Junior', the son and heir of Sir Thomas Barre,
'Senior', of Rotherwas (in Dinedor) and Clehonger, Herefordshire, by
his wife Elizabeth Croyser.

By Sir Thomas Barre, Alice had a son and three daughters, before her
husband died, probably fighting in France, in the late summer or autumn
of 1420. He predeceased his father, Sir Thomas Barre 'Senior', who
died in December 1420.

Alice married secondly, Richard de la Mere, sheriff of Herefordshire
1422-3, whose parentage I've not been able to determine. He was not
the Richard de la Mere, MP, whose bio is in Roskell's HOP. Instead, he
was likely of the family of Sir Peter de la Mere, Speaker of the House
of Commons under Richard II, as they were based in Herefordshire. By
him she had another son and two more daughters (who apparently died
unmarried), and died in 1436.

Issue of Alice Talbot and Sir Thomas Barre 'Junior':

1) Sir JOHN BARRE, born late 1412 (he was found to be age "9 and more"
in the September 1421 Herefordshire IPM of his grandfather). He was
knighted 1441/2, MP Herefordshire 1445-6, 1447, Gloucestershire 1450-1,
Herefordshire 1459., sheriff of Herefordshire and the West Marches,
1454-5. He married 1st, Idoine, daughter and heiress of Sir John
Hotoft (d. 1443), of Knebworth House, Hertfordshire, Treasurer of the
Household of Henry VI. He married 2nd, Joan (d. 10 Aug. 1484), widow
of Sir Robert Greyndore (d. 1443) of Clearwell Court, Gloucestershire,
and daughter and heiress of Thomas Rugge, of Charlecombe, Somerset. He
died 14 Jan. 1483, and was buried at All Saints' Church, Clehonger,
where he had founded a chantry for his family in 1474. He had (by his
first wife), one child and heiress:

1A) ISABEL BARRE, COUNTESS OF DEVON. She married 1st, after 1450, Sir
Humphrey Stafford (1439-17 Aug. 1469), of Hook, co. Dorset, cr. Baron
Stafford of Southwick 1464, Earl of Devon 1469, by whom she had no
surviving issue. She married 2nd, about 1472, Sir Thomas Bourchier (d.
26 Oct. 1491), younger son of Henry, Earl of Essex, and died 1 March
1489. Her remains were removed to her husband Bourchier's tomb in
Ware, Hertfordshire, after his death. By Bourchier, she had had issue:

1A1) ISABEL BOURCHIER, born 24 April 1474; died young before her
mother.
1A2) JOAN BOURCHIER, born 18 March 1475; died in infancy.

2) ELIZABETH BARRE, eldest daughter, born about 1414. She was married
to Edmund Cornewall, knight, eldest son and heir of Richard Cornewall
(d. January 1443), esquire, 'baron' of Burford, Salop, by his wife
Alice Merbury (d. 1417). From HOP: "The Cornewalls of Burford were
the younger branch of an ancient family which traced its descent from
an illegitimate son of Richard, Earl of Cornwall, brother of Henry III.
It was possibly their sense of this distinguished ancestry which
caused them to style themselves Barons of Burford, although none of
their line had ever been summoned to Parliament. They owned extensive
property in Devon, Herefordshire, Shropshire and the midlands."
Edmund, who was born about 1382, died before his father in Cologne in
1435, and was buried in St. Mary church, Burford. Over thirty years
younger than her husband, Elizabeth had only one son and one daughter
before his death. She died in 1468. Issue:

2A) THOMAS CORNEWALL, esquire, of Burford, born 1430/5, became the heir
of his grandfather, who arranged his marriage to Elizabeth (d. 1489),
daughter of Sir Rowland Lenthall (d. Nov. 1450), by his second wife
Lucy Grey. Revenue from the Cornewalls' Stapleton Castle in
Herefordshire, was part of the marriage settlement, and after the 1443
death of Richard Cornewall, Lenthall claimed he'd been defrauded.
Thomas Cornewall came of age in the 1450s and was a firm Lancastrian.
He was attainted in 1461 in Edward IV's first Parliament, and all of
his properties forfeited. He died shortly after 1472, when his son and
heir successfully petitioned the crown to be restored to the family
lands after his father's death. I haven't yet found a full list of
the children of Thomas Cornewall and Elizabeth Lenthall, but they had
at least one son:

2A1) Sir EDMUND CORNEWALL, of Burford, born 1455/9 (said to be age 30
and more in Oct. 1489), who had all the family lands restored shortly
after 1472/3. He married Margaret (d. 1498), daughter and coheiress of
Thomas Horde of Bridgnorth, Shropshire, MP. In October 1489, he was
found to be a coheir to Isabel Barre, countess of Devon, but died
shortly afterwards, on 8 Dec. 1489. From Sir Edmund descends the vast
Cornewall family of Burford.

2B) ELEANOR CORNEWALL, born 1430/5, married 1st, Sir Hugh Mortimer, of
Kyre Wyard and Martley, Worcestershire, and Tedstone Wafer,
Herefordshire, heir of the Tedstone Wafer Mortimers. He was killed at
Wakefield in December 1460, and was buried in the Church of St. Peter,
Martley. By him she had a son and a daughter. She married 2nd, Sir
Richard Croft (d. 29 July 1509), of Croft Castle, Herefordshire,
sheriff of Herefordshire 1471-72, 1477, 1486, MP Herefordshire 1477,
and had three more sons and five more daughters. The Crofts had
occupied Croft Castle since before the Conquest. Eleanor was the
governess of Edward IV's sons at Ludlow Castle. She died 23 Dec.
1519, at an advanced age, and was buried with her second husband in the
chapel of Croft Castle (tomb now in St. Michael church, Croft). Issue:

2B1) Sir JOHN MORTIMER, of Kyre Wyard, etc., born 1450/5, sheriff of
Herefordshire 1477-8, 1481-2, steward of Abberley, Worcestershire
during Warwick's minority 15 Aug. 1480, Squire of the Body 1481-5,
knighted 1485, Knight of the Body 1485-1504, sheriff of Worcestershire
1485-6, banneret at Stoke 16 June 1487, sheriff of Herefordshire
1493-4, 1501-2, MP Worcestershire 1495. He married, after 1485,
Margaret Nevill (c.1466-31 Jan. 1528), third daughter and co-heiress of
John Nevill, Marquess of Montagu (d. 1471) by his wife Isabel
Ingaldesthorpe. They had no issue, and Margaret went on to marry
Charles Brandon, have it annulled the same year (1507), and then marry
in 1522, one Robert Downes, in addition to having had an illegitimate
daughter. Sir John Mortimer died without issue in October 1504 (writ
of d.c.e. 1 Nov. 1504).

2B2) ELIZABETH MORTIMER, LADY DE LA WARR, born 1455/60, married about
1480, Sir Thomas West, 8th Lord De La Warr (c.1457- 11 Oct. 1525), and
died 29 June 1502, having had issue at least one son and four
daughters.

2B3) Sir EDWARD CROFT, of Croft Castle, born about 1465, sheriff of
Herefordshire 1505, married Joyce Scull, said to be daughter of Sir
Walter Scull, of Holt Castle, Worcestershire (d. about 1472; buried at
Holt Castle church), by his first wife Margaret Beauchamp of Holt (d.
1456; buried at Holt Castle church), but this seems unlikely due to
chronology, and she was probably his daughter by his second wife
Frances Mulle (d. 1483). Sir Edward died 23 March 1541, having had
four sons and seven daughters, and was ancestor of the Crofts of Croft
Castle, descendants of whom still occupy the castle today.

2B4) JOHN CROFT, of Holt, Worcestershire, born 1465/70, married
Elizabeth Seymour, daughter of John Seymour of Wolf Hall, Wiltshire (d.
1491), by his wife Elizabeth Darrell, and was ancestor of the Crofts of
Holt.

2B5) ROBERT CROFT, of Kyre Wyard, Worcestershire, married and had a
sole daughter and heiress.

2B6) ANN CROFT, married Sir Thomas Blount (1455- 4 June 1524), of
Kinlet, Shropshire, and died 27 Sep. 1549, having had at least five
sons and six daughters.

2B7) ELIZABETH CROFT, married John Whittingham, of Pauntley,
Gloucestershire.

2B8) JOYCE CROFT, married Thomas Mill, of Avenbury, Herefordshire.

2B9) JANE CROFT, married Sir Edward Darrell (1465/6- 9 Mar. 1530), of
Littlecote, Witshire, and died by 1492, having had issue, two sons and
two daughters.

2B10) SYBIL CROFT, married Sir George Herbert (c.1463/5- died after
1504), of St Julians, Monmouthshire, third son of William Herbert, Earl
of Pembroke. He was knighted in 1487 at the battle of Stoke. Dame
Sybil had two sons and one daughter.

3) JOAN BARRE, born 1415/20, married Sir Kynard de la Bere (d. by
1465), of Kinnersley Castle, Herefordshire, escheator of Herefordshire
and the West Marches 1438-9, son and heir of Sir Richard de la Bere, of
Kinnersley, MP Herefordshire, by his first wife Sybil Chabbonare.
Kynard and Joan were granted the manor of "Dorsington" (Dorston in
Herefordshire?), by Richard, duke of York. She died before 1474,
having had one son and three daughters. Her husband predeceased her.
Issue:

3A) Sir RICHARD DELABERE, of Kinnersley, born about 1448, knighted 17
Jan. 1478, sheriff of Herefordshire 1478-9, 1482-3, 1492-3, 1510-11, MP
Herefordshire 1495, adhered to Buckingham in his 1483 rebellion, and
pardoned by Richard III 5 Nov. 1484; made banneret at Stoke 1487, found
co-heir to Isabel Barre, countess of Devon, in September 1489. He
married 1st, Anne Audley, daughter of John, Lord Audley, by his second
wife Eleanor Holland, and had one son and four daughters. He married
2ndly, Elizabeth (married 2ndly, Thomas Baskerville, esquire), daughter
of William Mores, Sergeant to the Hall of Henry VII, and had a further
ten sons and six daughters. Sir Richard died 15 July 1514, and was
buried in Hereford Cathedral. By his second wife he was ancestor of
the Delaberes of Herefordshire and Gloucestershire. By his first wife,
he had one surviving son and daughter:

3A1) THOMAS DELABERE, of Kinnersley, etc., died without issue 1518/19.
3A2) ANNE DELABERE, married John Pye (1444-1550; buried St Davids
church, Much Dewchurch), of Mynd Park, Much Dewchurch, Herefordshire.
They had many children.

3B) ANNE DELABERE
3C) ELIZABETH DELABERE
3D) JANE DELABERE, all alive and unmarried in 1465/70, when they sued
their brother Richard for their marriage portions.

4) ANKARET BARRE, born 1415/20, married John Hanmer, esquire, and died
after 1474, leaving a son and heir, William Hanmer, who was found to be
a co-heir to Isabel Barre, countess of Devon, in September 1489. I'm
in the process of researching the Hanmers.

Cheers, -----Brad
John Higgins
2005-07-25 05:40:08 UTC
Permalink
How refreshing to see some real genealogy in this group - something that's
been lacking for most of the past month. Thanks for this most useful
contribution.

Some comments are inserted below.....

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <***@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:48 AM
Subject: Some Descendants of Alice Talbot, Dame Barre

[snip]
By Sir Thomas Barre, Alice [Talbot] had a son and three daughters, before
her
husband died, probably fighting in France, in the late summer or autumn
of 1420. He predeceased his father, Sir Thomas Barre 'Senior', who
died in December 1420.
Roskell's HOP seems to say that Sir Thomas "senior" died 18 Dec 1419, not
1420 - before his son, not after. The IPM for Sir Thomas "senior" was 24
Sept 1420 and established that his son Sir Thomas "junior" had died between
July and September of that year.

[snip]
2A) THOMAS CORNEWALL, esquire, of Burford, born 1430/5, became the heir
of his grandfather, who arranged his marriage to Elizabeth (d. 1489),
daughter of Sir Rowland Lenthall (d. Nov. 1450), by his second wife
Lucy Grey. Revenue from the Cornewalls' Stapleton Castle in
Herefordshire, was part of the marriage settlement, and after the 1443
death of Richard Cornewall, Lenthall claimed he'd been defrauded.
Thomas Cornewall came of age in the 1450s and was a firm Lancastrian.
He was attainted in 1461 in Edward IV's first Parliament, and all of
his properties forfeited. He died shortly after 1472, when his son and
heir successfully petitioned the crown to be restored to the family
lands after his father's death. I haven't yet found a full list of
the children of Thomas Cornewall and Elizabeth Lenthall, but they had
From a not very reliable source, I've seen statements that Thomas Cornewall
and Elizabeth Lenthall had at least two other sons who died in infancy, plus
possibly another son Roland, who may have had issue. This needs further
research.

[snip]
3) JOAN BARRE, born 1415/20, married Sir Kynard de la Bere (d. by
1465), of Kinnersley Castle, Herefordshire, escheator of Herefordshire
and the West Marches 1438-9, son and heir of Sir Richard de la Bere, of
Kinnersley, MP Herefordshire, by his first wife Sybil Chabbonare.
Kynard and Joan were granted the manor of "Dorsington" (Dorston in
Herefordshire?), by Richard, duke of York. She died before 1474,
having had one son and three daughters. Her husband predeceased her.
Roskell's HOP has a bio of a Kynard de la Bere who is said to son of Sir
Richard and possibly his wife Sibyl Chabbenor [sic], but the HOP Kynard d.
1402 leaving a son Richard. I wonder if the sequence of Delaberes here
should be:
Richard, m. Katherine Abrahall and Sibyl Chabennor [order unclear]
Kymard (d. 1402), m. Katherine NN (widow of Sir John Pecche)
Sir Richard, m. ??
Sir Kynard, m. John Barre

There is also a reference in CP 3:149 to another child John of Sir Richard
and Sibyl Chabennor. This John is said to have a dau. married in 1363 - far
too early for him to be a brother of the Kynard who married Joan Barre, but
OK for a brother of the HOP Kynard.

As a further complication, I've seen references that a Richard Delabere
married Joan, dau. of Thomas, 1st Lord West. I wonder if this could be the
Richard who was father of the later Sir Kynard above.

Is there any decent pedigree of the Delabere family in this time period?
3A) Sir RICHARD DELABERE, of Kinnersley, born about 1448, knighted 17
Jan. 1478, sheriff of Herefordshire 1478-9, 1482-3, 1492-3, 1510-11, MP
Herefordshire 1495, adhered to Buckingham in his 1483 rebellion, and
pardoned by Richard III 5 Nov. 1484; made banneret at Stoke 1487, found
co-heir to Isabel Barre, countess of Devon, in September 1489. He
married 1st, Anne Audley, daughter of John, Lord Audley, by his second
wife Eleanor Holland, and had one son and four daughters.
I believe Anne Audley [or Tuchet] was the daughter of James [not John], Lord
Audley and Eleanor Holland.

[snip]
3A1) THOMAS DELABERE, of Kinnersley, etc., died without issue 1518/19.
3A2) ANNE DELABERE, married John Pye (1444-1550; buried St Davids
church, Much Dewchurch), of Mynd Park, Much Dewchurch, Herefordshire.
They had many children.
One source says that John Pye had 43 children by his three wives...I guess
that qualifies as "many"! :-)
Brad Verity
2005-07-25 17:00:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Higgins
How refreshing to see some real genealogy in this group - something that's
been lacking for most of the past month. Thanks for this most useful
contribution.
Thanks, John. I've tried to answer your comments below.
Post by John Higgins
Roskell's HOP seems to say that Sir Thomas "senior" died 18 Dec 1419, not
1420 - before his son, not after. The IPM for Sir Thomas "senior" was 24
Sept 1420 and established that his son Sir Thomas "junior" had died between
July and September of that year.
I haven't seen Roskell's HOP article on Thomas Barre 'Senior', but I do
have a copy of his IPM from the published CIPM series. The writ of
diem clausit extremum was issued on 20 Jan. 1421, and the Herefordshire
IPM was taken at Hereford on 23 Sept. 1421, returning Thomas as dying
"on 12 Dec. 1420." The Hertfordshire IPM was taken 17 July 1421 at
Hertford, and returned John as dying "on 22 Dec. 1420."

Both IPMs return John Barre as heir. Hereford: "John Barr, son of
Thomas Barr, knight, junior, is his next heir, aged 9 years and more."
Hertford: "John Barre, aged 11 years and more, is the kinsman and heir
of Thomas and Elizabeth, i.e. son of their son Thomas Barre."
Post by John Higgins
From a not very reliable source, I've seen statements that Thomas Cornewall
and Elizabeth Lenthall had at least two other sons who died in infancy, plus
possibly another son Roland, who may have had issue. This needs further
research.
It seems quite likely that Thomas Cornewall and Elizabeth Lenthall
would have had a son, Rowland Cornewall, named for his maternal
grandfather, Sir Rowland Lenthall.
Post by John Higgins
Roskell's HOP has a bio of a Kynard de la Bere who is said to son of Sir
Richard and possibly his wife Sibyl Chabbenor [sic], but the HOP Kynard d.
1402 leaving a son Richard. I wonder if the sequence of Delaberes here
Richard, m. Katherine Abrahall and Sibyl Chabennor [order unclear]
Kymard (d. 1402), m. Katherine NN (widow of Sir John Pecche)
Sir Richard, m. ??
Sir Kynard, m. John Barre
The above sequence looks right to me, chronologically.
Post by John Higgins
As a further complication, I've seen references that a Richard Delabere
married Joan, dau. of Thomas, 1st Lord West. I wonder if this could be the
Richard who was father of the later Sir Kynard above.
It seems likely. What are the birth and death dates for Thomas, 1st
Lord West?
Post by John Higgins
Is there any decent pedigree of the Delabere family in this time period?
None that I could find. I chiefly used Wedgwood's HOP article on Sir
Richard Delabere (d. 1514) and the National Archives Catalogue database
to piece together biographical details.

There is a rather well-presented website on the Delaberes, but all the
info needs to be verified. This is where I took the (apparently)
incorrect mother of Kynard de la Bere, husband of Joan Barre.

http://www.mayfamilyhistory.co.uk/abear/delabere/index.html
Post by John Higgins
I believe Anne Audley [or Tuchet] was the daughter of James [not John], Lord
Audley and Eleanor Holland.
Very right.
Post by John Higgins
One source says that John Pye had 43 children by his three wives...I guess
that qualifies as "many"! :-)
Yes, he was very busy, it seems, and still found time to make a
pilgrimage to Jerusalem!

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7849/HISTORY.HTML

The above link is to an interesting website on the Pyes, but some of
the info doesn't seem to pan out. For instance, it states: "He first
married Ann, the daughter of Sir Richard de La Bere, by whom be had
first John Pye of Lanreath (Lansreath), (sometimes erroneously written
Nansarth), in Cornwall near St. Austell. He was born about 1463 at
Mynde Hall, and died in 1519. He lived part of his life at Bodinneck in
St. Stephen's in Brannel, Cornwall. He went to Cornwall to inherit his
mother's family land from the de La Beses in Devon and in Cornwall, an
estate larger than that owned by the Pyes in Herefordshire. John Pye of
Lanreath (Lansreath) (Lanrethou) married Elizabeth, daughter of Hugh
Courtenay of Boconnoc. The Pyes inherited Bodinneck from the
Courtenays. Elizabeth's brother, Edward was Earl of Devon. Her mother
was Margaret, daughter of Thomas Carminow and his wife Joanna
Trevarthian, daughter of Otho Trevarthian."

There is no way chronologically for Anne Delabere, daughter of Sir
Richard Delabere (b. about 1448) and Anne Audley, to have had a son
born about 1463, when she may not have even been born yet herself. The
Cornish details on the Courtenays of Boconnoc, though, seem fairly
accurate. Sir Hugh Courtenay of Boconnoc did have a daughter named
Elizabeth, but she is said in the Courtenay genealogies to have married
a John Trethreff, not a John Pye. So it's curious.

Cheers, --------Brad
Robert O'Connor
2005-07-25 08:48:37 UTC
Permalink
Excellent stuff Brad.

I am interested in these families as my wife descends from Alice Talbot
through Sir Edmund Cornwall (d 1489).

I note that you have not attempted to show any of his descendants.

I show at least 2 children of him & his wife Margaret Hoord as follows:

1.Thomas (Sir), Kt., M.P., J.P., of Burford, Co. Salop., Born 1474. He was
recorded as "son & heir" & as "aged 16" at his father's I.P.M., 18 Sept.
1491. In 1497 he took part in the defeat of the insurgent Cornishmen at
Blackheath & after the battle was knighted by King Henry VII at London
Bridge, 17 June 1497. He and Sir Richard Corbet were accused in the Star
Chamber of assembling between 2,000 and 3,000 men to ambush and kill Sir
Richard Croft as he returned home from the campaign. The outcome of the
case is not recorded, but his local prestige does not seem to have been
harmed. In 1502 he attended the funeral of Prince Arthur at Worcester
Cathedral. In 1512 he went with the 2nd Marquess of Dorset on the
disastrous expedition to Fuentarrabia & in the following year he served
under Shrewsbury in the more successful campaign in northern France. In
1520 he attended the Field of Cloth of Gold. During the later years of his
life he was engaged in a struggle to secure his share of the inheritance of
the last Lord Grey of Codnor, from one of whose aunts he was descended.
After acrimonious lawsuits and some violence he seemed to have triumphed
when on 5 Oct. 1527 he and another of the heirs, Thomas Newport, sold their
rights to the Grey inheritance. M.P. for Co. Salop, 1529. M by 1499 Anne,
d. of Sir Richard Corbet, Kt., of Moreton Corbet, Co. Salop & his wife
Elizabeth, d. of Walter Devereux, 1st Baron Ferrers, of Chartley. Died 19
Aug. 1537 at Acton, Middlesex.

Refs:
HoP 1509-58, I, pp 706-7
HSP Salop, p 147
RD500, p 277
CP II, p 421 & IV, pp 327-8
CIPM Henry VII, I CIPM Henry VII, I, pp 545, 549, 562, 649, 667 & 679
BN I, p 416

2.Anne Cornwall, M Peter Blount, Esq., of Sodington, Co. Worc. (Died 1527).
She had issue:

Ref: HSP Worc, pp 18 & 22

My wife's line is from the Blounts and thus I can provide more descendants
of this line should you wish.

Regards

Robert O'Connor
Brad Verity
2005-07-25 17:23:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert O'Connor
Excellent stuff Brad.
Thanks, Robert. I've added in comments.
Post by Robert O'Connor
I am interested in these families as my wife descends from Alice Talbot
through Sir Edmund Cornwall (d 1489).
I note that you have not attempted to show any of his descendants.
Only because I could not find a full list of the children of Sir Edmund
Cornewall and Margaret Horde, other than their son and heir, Sir
Thomas.

[snip]
Post by Robert O'Connor
M by 1499 Anne,
d. of Sir Richard Corbet, Kt., of Moreton Corbet, Co. Salop & his wife
Elizabeth, d. of Walter Devereux, 1st Baron Ferrers, of Chartley. Died 19
Aug. 1537 at Acton, Middlesex.
Thank you for compiling this bio of Sir Thomas Cornewall. His wife
Anne Corbet was descended from Edward I through her mother, so the
descendants of this couple have a double line back to that monarch. It
is likely in the Tudor era that these
Herefordshire/Warwickshire/Shropshire gentry lines link up more and
more.
Post by Robert O'Connor
2.Anne Cornwall, M Peter Blount, Esq., of Sodington, Co. Worc. (Died 1527).
It's great to have this Cornewall daughter Anne added to the line of
Alice Talbot. It would appear Peter Blount does not have a descent
from Edward I, so here is another family (Blounts of Sodington), whose
sole link to a descent from that king is through Alice Talbot.
Post by Robert O'Connor
My wife's line is from the Blounts and thus I can provide more descendants
of this line should you wish.
I'm trying for now to use 1500 as a cut-off date as I track the
descendants of Edward I thru the 14th and 15th centuries. I may ask
you in a year or so for the details on the Blount descendants, but I'm
not ready yet to dive into the Tudor era!

However, others on the newsgroup may be interested in this family.

Thanks again and Cheers, ------Brad
Tim Powys-Lybbe
2005-07-25 13:05:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Verity
Alice Talbot, the third daughter of Richard, 4th Lord Talbot, and
Ankaret, Lady Strange of Blakemere, is a key gateway for the
Herefordshire gentry to a descent from Edward I. For the eleven
families descended from her by 1500 listed below, she is the only link
to such a descent for all but one.
She was born 1389/93, and was a younger sister of John Talbot, the 1st
Earl of Shrewsbury. In 1412, her widowed mother arranged her marriage
to Sir Thomas Barre, 'Junior', the son and heir of Sir Thomas Barre,
'Senior', of Rotherwas (in Dinedor) and Clehonger, Herefordshire, by
his wife Elizabeth Croyser.
By Sir Thomas Barre, Alice had a son and three daughters, before her
husband died, probably fighting in France, in the late summer or autumn
of 1420. He predeceased his father, Sir Thomas Barre 'Senior', who
died in December 1420.
Alice married secondly, Richard de la Mere, sheriff of Herefordshire
1422-3, whose parentage I've not been able to determine. He was not
the Richard de la Mere, MP, whose bio is in Roskell's HOP. Instead, he
was likely of the family of Sir Peter de la Mere, Speaker of the House
of Commons under Richard II, as they were based in Herefordshire. By
him she had another son and two more daughters (who apparently died
unmarried), and died in 1436.
1) Sir JOHN BARRE, born late 1412 (he was found to be age "9 and more"
in the September 1421 Herefordshire IPM of his grandfather). He was
knighted 1441/2, MP Herefordshire 1445-6, 1447, Gloucestershire 1450-1,
Herefordshire 1459., sheriff of Herefordshire and the West Marches,
1454-5. He married 1st, Idoine, daughter and heiress of Sir John
Hotoft (d. 1443), of Knebworth House, Hertfordshire, Treasurer of the
Household of Henry VI. He married 2nd, Joan (d. 10 Aug. 1484), widow
of Sir Robert Greyndore (d. 1443) of Clearwell Court, Gloucestershire,
and daughter and heiress of Thomas Rugge, of Charlecombe, Somerset. He
died 14 Jan. 1483, and was buried at All Saints' Church, Clehonger,
where he had founded a chantry for his family in 1474. He had (by his
1A) ISABEL BARRE, COUNTESS OF DEVON. She married 1st, after 1450, Sir
Humphrey Stafford (1439-17 Aug. 1469), of Hook, co. Dorset, cr. Baron
Stafford of Southwick 1464, Earl of Devon 1469, by whom she had no
surviving issue. She married 2nd, about 1472, Sir Thomas Bourchier (d.
26 Oct. 1491), younger son of Henry, Earl of Essex, and died 1 March
1489. Her remains were removed to her husband Bourchier's tomb in
1A1) ISABEL BOURCHIER, born 24 April 1474; died young before her
mother.
1A2) JOAN BOURCHIER, born 18 March 1475; died in infancy.
2) ELIZABETH BARRE, eldest daughter, born about 1414. She was married
to Edmund Cornewall, knight, eldest son and heir of Richard Cornewall
(d. January 1443), esquire, 'baron' of Burford, Salop, by his wife
Alice Merbury (d. 1417). From HOP: "The Cornewalls of Burford were
the younger branch of an ancient family which traced its descent from
an illegitimate son of Richard, Earl of Cornwall, brother of Henry III.
It was possibly their sense of this distinguished ancestry which
caused them to style themselves Barons of Burford, although none of
their line had ever been summoned to Parliament. They owned extensive
property in Devon, Herefordshire, Shropshire and the midlands."
Edmund, who was born about 1382, died before his father in Cologne in
1435, and was buried in St. Mary church, Burford. Over thirty years
younger than her husband, Elizabeth had only one son and one daughter
2A) THOMAS CORNEWALL, esquire, of Burford, born 1430/5, became the heir
of his grandfather, who arranged his marriage to Elizabeth (d. 1489),
daughter of Sir Rowland Lenthall (d. Nov. 1450), by his second wife
Lucy Grey. Revenue from the Cornewalls' Stapleton Castle in
Herefordshire, was part of the marriage settlement, and after the 1443
death of Richard Cornewall, Lenthall claimed he'd been defrauded.
Thomas Cornewall came of age in the 1450s and was a firm Lancastrian.
He was attainted in 1461 in Edward IV's first Parliament, and all of
his properties forfeited. He died shortly after 1472, when his son and
heir successfully petitioned the crown to be restored to the family
lands after his father's death. I haven't yet found a full list of
the children of Thomas Cornewall and Elizabeth Lenthall, but they had
2A1) Sir EDMUND CORNEWALL, of Burford, born 1455/9 (said to be age 30
and more in Oct. 1489), who had all the family lands restored shortly
after 1472/3. He married Margaret (d. 1498), daughter and coheiress of
Thomas Horde of Bridgnorth, Shropshire, MP. In October 1489, he was
found to be a coheir to Isabel Barre, countess of Devon, but died
shortly afterwards, on 8 Dec. 1489. From Sir Edmund descends the vast
Cornewall family of Burford.
2B) ELEANOR CORNEWALL, born 1430/5, married 1st, Sir Hugh Mortimer, of
Kyre Wyard and Martley, Worcestershire, and Tedstone Wafer,
Herefordshire, heir of the Tedstone Wafer Mortimers. He was killed at
Wakefield in December 1460, and was buried in the Church of St. Peter,
Martley. By him she had a son and a daughter. She married 2nd, Sir
Richard Croft (d. 29 July 1509), of Croft Castle, Herefordshire,
sheriff of Herefordshire 1471-72, 1477, 1486, MP Herefordshire 1477,
and had three more sons and five more daughters. The Crofts had
occupied Croft Castle since before the Conquest. Eleanor was the
governess of Edward IV's sons at Ludlow Castle. She died 23 Dec.
1519, at an advanced age, and was buried with her second husband in the
2B1) Sir JOHN MORTIMER, of Kyre Wyard, etc., born 1450/5, sheriff of
Herefordshire 1477-8, 1481-2, steward of Abberley, Worcestershire
during Warwick's minority 15 Aug. 1480, Squire of the Body 1481-5,
knighted 1485, Knight of the Body 1485-1504, sheriff of Worcestershire
1485-6, banneret at Stoke 16 June 1487, sheriff of Herefordshire
1493-4, 1501-2, MP Worcestershire 1495. He married, after 1485,
Margaret Nevill (c.1466-31 Jan. 1528), third daughter and co-heiress of
John Nevill, Marquess of Montagu (d. 1471) by his wife Isabel
Ingaldesthorpe. They had no issue, and Margaret went on to marry
Charles Brandon, have it annulled the same year (1507), and then marry
in 1522, one Robert Downes, in addition to having had an illegitimate
daughter. Sir John Mortimer died without issue in October 1504 (writ
of d.c.e. 1 Nov. 1504).
2B2) ELIZABETH MORTIMER, LADY DE LA WARR, born 1455/60, married about
1480, Sir Thomas West, 8th Lord De La Warr (c.1457- 11 Oct. 1525), and
died 29 June 1502, having had issue at least one son and four
daughters.
The above gives that Edmund Cornwall and Elizabeth Barre were the
parents of Thomas and Eleanor. Eleanor married Hugh Mortimer and they
were the parents of John and Elizabeth. Elizabeth married Thomas
West, 8th baron DeLaWarr.

On the other hand CP in Volume IV, p. 156 has that the father of Eleanor
Cornwall was John Cornwall, not Edmund. CP Volume XIV does not change
this, nor does Chris Phillips' site of corrections to CP.

Any views on what evidence points to what parentage for Eleanor
Cornwall?

There is also an apparent discrepancy between the Mortimers Hall that CP
says Hugh Mortimer came from and the above Kyre Wyard and Martley,
Worcestershire, and Tedstone Wafer, Herefordshire.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          ***@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Brad Verity
2005-07-25 17:43:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
The above gives that Edmund Cornwall and Elizabeth Barre were the
parents of Thomas and Eleanor. Eleanor married Hugh Mortimer and they
were the parents of John and Elizabeth. Elizabeth married Thomas
West, 8th baron DeLaWarr.
On the other hand CP in Volume IV, p. 156 has that the father of Eleanor
Cornwall was John Cornwall, not Edmund. CP Volume XIV does not change
this, nor does Chris Phillips' site of corrections to CP.
And Wedgwood's HOP article on Sir John Mortimer (d. 1504) states, "Only
s. of Sir Hugh Mortimer of Mortimer Hall, Hants (d.c.1455), by Eleanor
da. of Sir John Cornwall, baron of Burford..."

There was no John Cornewall, baron of Burford, in the 15th century.

Whether Wedgwood followed CP, or CP Wedgwood, I'm not sure.
Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
Any views on what evidence points to what parentage for Eleanor
Cornwall?
The following memorial plaque at the tomb of Sir Richard Croft and
Eleanor Cornewall, clears up the discrepancy:

Loading Image...

"Also of ELEANOR his wife daughter of Edmund Cornewall Baron of Burford
Salop widow of Sir Hugh Mortimer of Kyre"
Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
There is also an apparent discrepancy between the Mortimers Hall that CP
says Hugh Mortimer came from and the above Kyre Wyard and Martley,
Worcestershire, and Tedstone Wafer, Herefordshire.
I know Chris Phillips has tried to find the ever-elusive "Mortimers
Hall" that has been ascribed not only to these Herefordshire Mortimers,
but to the Essex Mortimers (David and his son Robert, who married
Isabel, eldest daughter of John Howard, 1st Duke of Norfolk) as well.
I can't recall where he left it, but I know as per the Essex Mortimers,
there definitely was no "Mortimer's Hall".

Cheers, -------Brad
Tim Powys-Lybbe
2005-07-25 18:39:14 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Brad Verity
Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
Any views on what evidence points to what parentage for Eleanor
Cornwall?
The following memorial plaque at the tomb of Sir Richard Croft and
http://www.richardiiiworcs.co.uk/images/croft/1003959.jpg
"Also of ELEANOR his wife daughter of Edmund Cornewall Baron of Burford
Salop widow of Sir Hugh Mortimer of Kyre"
The plaque looks very modern to me. I would have guessed that it was
Victorian from the font and the fact that is looks machine stamped.
Plaques made in the 15th century had far more cursive styles. (I've
just done about two months work cleaning up some images of 15th century
brass coats of arms and the lettering is all rather ornate and with
abbreviations and mixtures of English, Latin and French.)
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          ***@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Brad Verity
2005-07-25 19:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Powys-Lybbe
The plaque looks very modern to me. I would have guessed that it was
Victorian from the font and the fact that is looks machine stamped.
Plaques made in the 15th century had far more cursive styles. (I've
just done about two months work cleaning up some images of 15th century
brass coats of arms and the lettering is all rather ornate and with
abbreviations and mixtures of English, Latin and French.)
Yes, it's modern. But it gives us the placement of Eleanor in the
Cornewall family, as there was no John Cornewall of Burford. Perhaps
some information on the plaque was taken from the tomb itself, or from
muniments in the castle? There are more pictures at the link below:

http://www.richardiiiworcs.co.uk/croftthumbnails.html

If it's Victorian, then it predates CP/Wedgwood HOP. I can only assume
that one of those works made an error, and the other followed. Perhaps
they got confused, making the first name of Eleanor's father the same
as the first name of her firstborn son?

I know that there were IPMs taken after Eleanor's 1519 death, but they
probably wouldn't include the name of her father. If she left a will,
that could be of more help.

Cheers, ----Brad
Brad Verity
2005-07-25 19:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Thank you - I've interspersed comments below.
This Elizabeth's husband was in fact the wife of John Whittington (not
Whittingham) of Pauntley (and Hope Solers, Hds, Upton Haselor, Warks, and Notgrove,
Glos.) JW was the son of William Whittington (d. 1470) and Elizabeth Arundel
of Lanhearne, Cornwall.
This additional information is great - many thanks. Wonderful to have
John Whittington's parents. Is there a source you have for these
Whittingtons of Pauntley? I see the family had property in
Herefordshire - "Hope Solers" has to be the manor of Sollers Hope (or,
Sollershope). It helps explain the marriage of Elizabeth Croft, of a
Herfordshire-based family, to a family seated in Gloucestershire.

By any chance, do you have further information (dates of death, etc.)
for John Whittingham and his son Thomas below?
Their son Thomas had six daughters by his wife Margery
Nedham or Needham, namely:-
2B7ia) Elizabeth, married Sir Giles Poole of Saperton: issue included Sir
Henry Poole (1546-1616)
2B7ib) Anne, married Brice Berkeley and had issue
2B7ic) Jane, married Roger Bodenham of Rotherwas: issue
2B7id) Margaret, married Sir Thomas Throgmorton of Tortworth and
Coughton:issue
2B7ie) Alice, married John Nanfan of Birts Morton, Worcs: issue; and
2B7if ) Blanch, married John St Aubyn of Cornwall:?issue
And the line of Alice Talbot spreads out ever-wider. As these
Whittingham daughters fall into the mid-16th century, I'm going to hold
off on exploring them further.
Alexander Whittington, of Notgrove and Holme Lacy (Hds), 3rd son of John
Whittington, was not the son of Elizabeth Croft, but of his father's second wife
Elizabeth, one of the quiverful of daughters of Simon Milborne of Tillington.
Simon's great grandmother Isabel -the wife of Sir John Eylesford who d. 1396-
was herself the daughter of Sir Thomas de la Barre "senior" (if I may adopt
Brad's identifier).
I actually took it from the way Thomas was described in his IPM:
"Thomas Barre, Knight, Senior". So that's probably how he was known in
his lifetime.
Furthermore I have it that Simon Milborne's mother was Elizabeth Devereux,
daughter of Walter Devereux, and granddaughter of of Sir Walter Devereux.
Chronologically, would this make her the sister of the Sir Walter
Devereux who married Anne Ferrers of Chartley?
Could
Brad kindly confirm whether there was an Ann Barre, daughter of Sir John, who
married one of the Devereux, and may therefore have been an ancestress of
Simon Milborne?
Alice Talbot had only three daughters by her first husband Sir Thomas
Barre 'Junior'. We know this because the descendants of those
daughters became co-heirs to the Barre inheritance in 1489, after the
death of Isabel Barre, countess of Devon.

By her second husband Richard de la Mere, Alice Talbot had two further
daughters, Margaret Delamere and Anne Delamere. But they appear to
have died unmarried before 1474, as their half-brother John Barre made
no mention of husbands for them when founding the family chantry.

There was no Barre/Devereux marriage in the 15th century, unless Sir
Thomas Barre 'Senior' had a daughter who married a Devereux in the
first two decades (1400-20). But then they would not be descended from
Alice Talbot.

As far as I can determine, the Herefordshire Devereuxs do not link into
a descent from Edward I until Anne Ferrers of Chartley married Sir
Walter Devereux of Weobley in 1446.
If so, we can add the very prolific Herefordshire Whittingtons and
their descendants the Pateshalls of Pudlestone and Allensmore to Brad's
impressive list of Alice Talbot's descendants
MM
Sorry that the Herefordshire Whittingtons and the other families can't
be added.
Earlier in his post Brad
This is as far as the post appears. Was there more of it that was cut
off?

Thanks again for the Whittington info!

Cheers, -----Brad
W***@aol.com
2005-07-25 21:33:47 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 7/24/05 12:29:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
***@hotmail.com writes:

<< Alice Talbot, the third daughter of Richard, 4th Lord Talbot, and
Ankaret, Lady Strange of Blakemere, is a key gateway for the
Herefordshire gentry to a descent from Edward I. For the eleven
families descended from her by 1500 listed below, she is the only link
to such a descent for all but one.

She was born 1389/93, >>

Could you provide a source/sources for this narrow birth range?
Thanks
Will Johnson
Leo van de Pas
2005-07-25 22:14:25 UTC
Permalink
Dear Will,

My contribution here is perhaps useless guessing. I have Alice's parents as
marrying about 1377. Theyt had five sons and four daughters.
I have (don't forget it is guessing)

Elizabeth born circa 1380
Mary born circa 1382
Gilbert born in 1383
ALICE
Richard Archbishop of Dublin, :Lord Chancellor etc of Ireland
John born in 1390 he is John 1st Earl of Shrewsbury
Anne who had a son born on 3 May 1414

This has all four daughters accounted for, but only three sons. My guess is
that Alice was born after Gilbert (just has to) and before Richard and as
Richard was born (guess) 1388. I would say Alice is born after 1383 and
before 1388. I know this is not good guessing, but I hope someone can
provide some proper facts (and the names of the missing sons).

-----Yuck and then I see that I have Richard and John in the wrong order.
John is the second son, which brings Alice to have been born after 1383 and
before 1390.
As they had so many children, could there have been a gap with no children
between 1383 and 1390?

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: Some Descendants of Alice Talbot, Dame Barre
Post by W***@aol.com
In a message dated 7/24/05 12:29:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<< Alice Talbot, the third daughter of Richard, 4th Lord Talbot, and
Ankaret, Lady Strange of Blakemere, is a key gateway for the
Herefordshire gentry to a descent from Edward I. For the eleven
families descended from her by 1500 listed below, she is the only link
to such a descent for all but one.
She was born 1389/93, >>
Could you provide a source/sources for this narrow birth range?
Thanks
Will Johnson
Brad Verity
2005-07-25 23:26:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by W***@aol.com
Post by W***@aol.com
She was born 1389/93, >>
Could you provide a source/sources for this narrow birth range?
Dear Will,

Barbara Ross, in 'Accounts of the Stewards of the Talbot Household at
Blakemere 1392-1425', states that Alice Talbot was betrothed to Thomas
Barre in the year 1411-12 [1 August 1411-30 September 1412]: "This year
saw the betrothal of two of her daughters from her first marriage: Anne
Talbot to Sir Hugh de Courtenay, later Earl of Devon, and Alice Talbot
to Sir Thomas Barre. Wax used in candles and tapers at their betrothal
["desponsacionem"] is accounted for here, and in the same year Alice is
referred to as married when fodder is provided for the horses of Thomas
Barre and Alice his wife." Later, Ross says of Alice: "Sir Thos. Barre
of Rotherwas, near Hereford, and Alice his wife ... Their son was born
in 1415. Alice's brother John Talbot was his godfather. Barre died in
1421 and Alice married Ric. de la Mere. They were granted the manor of
Credenhill [Herefordshire] by John Talbot and lived there, both dying
in 1436."

Sadly Ross provides no source for the 1415 birth of John Barre. It
seems natural for John Talbot to have been his godfather, but the 1421
IPMs of his grandfather Thomas Barre 'Senior' returned John as age "11
years and more" [July, Hertford], and "9 years and more" [Sept.,
Hereford], both of which are far off from a 1415 birth. Age 11 in 1421
is impossible, given that his parents weren't married until after
August 1411. So that leaves the Hereford IPM age of 9 and more in
September 1421, which puts his birth in 1412, fitting in with the dates
of his parents' marriage. The Hereford IPM would be more accurate
because the Barres were seated there (they held only one manor in
Hertfordshire).

Alice Talbot must then be old enough to give birth in 1412, quickly
after marriage. We cannot be sure of the birth order of the five
younger children of Richard, 4th Lord Talbot - Richard, William,
Thomas, Alice and Anne - except that Thomas was the youngest son. John
Talbot was born in about 1387, so the three younger sons were
definitely born after that year. If Alice was older than John (born
between Gilbert and John), it would make her age 25 or 26 at her
marriage, which seems a little old. On the other end, a birth in 1395
or 1396 (4th Lord Talbot died in Sept. 1396) would make her age 16 or
17 at marriage and her son's birth, which seems a little young (plus
her siblings Anne and Thomas were likely younger than her).

A range of 1389/93 seems the best guess chronologically. Sorry for the
long answer to a straightforward question, but chronology is never easy
to work out.

Still on my To Do List is to check the Patent, Close and Fine Rolls
from 1430-40 to determine when John Barre was given livery of the Barre
lands, and whether he had to prove his age, as that could determine
with certainty which year he was born.

Cheers, -----Brad
fowler...@gmail.com
2020-08-24 10:52:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leo van de Pas
Post by W***@aol.com
She was born 1389/93, >>
Could you provide a source/sources for this narrow birth range?
Dear Will,
Barbara Ross, in 'Accounts of the Stewards of the Talbot Household at
Blakemere 1392-1425', states that Alice Talbot was betrothed to Thomas
Barre in the year 1411-12 [1 August 1411-30 September 1412]: "This year
saw the betrothal of two of her daughters from her first marriage: Anne
Talbot to Sir Hugh de Courtenay, later Earl of Devon, and Alice Talbot
to Sir Thomas Barre. Wax used in candles and tapers at their betrothal
["desponsacionem"] is accounted for here, and in the same year Alice is
referred to as married when fodder is provided for the horses of Thomas
Barre and Alice his wife." Later, Ross says of Alice: "Sir Thos. Barre
of Rotherwas, near Hereford, and Alice his wife ... Their son was born
in 1415. Alice's brother John Talbot was his godfather. Barre died in
1421 and Alice married Ric. de la Mere. They were granted the manor of
Credenhill [Herefordshire] by John Talbot and lived there, both dying
in 1436."
Sadly Ross provides no source for the 1415 birth of John Barre. It
seems natural for John Talbot to have been his godfather, but the 1421
IPMs of his grandfather Thomas Barre 'Senior' returned John as age "11
years and more" [July, Hertford], and "9 years and more" [Sept.,
Hereford], both of which are far off from a 1415 birth. Age 11 in 1421
is impossible, given that his parents weren't married until after
August 1411. So that leaves the Hereford IPM age of 9 and more in
September 1421, which puts his birth in 1412, fitting in with the dates
of his parents' marriage. The Hereford IPM would be more accurate
because the Barres were seated there (they held only one manor in
Hertfordshire).
Alice Talbot must then be old enough to give birth in 1412, quickly
after marriage. We cannot be sure of the birth order of the five
younger children of Richard, 4th Lord Talbot - Richard, William,
Thomas, Alice and Anne - except that Thomas was the youngest son. John
Talbot was born in about 1387, so the three younger sons were
definitely born after that year. If Alice was older than John (born
between Gilbert and John), it would make her age 25 or 26 at her
marriage, which seems a little old. On the other end, a birth in 1395
or 1396 (4th Lord Talbot died in Sept. 1396) would make her age 16 or
17 at marriage and her son's birth, which seems a little young (plus
her siblings Anne and Thomas were likely younger than her).
A range of 1389/93 seems the best guess chronologically. Sorry for the
long answer to a straightforward question, but chronology is never easy
to work out.
Still on my To Do List is to check the Patent, Close and Fine Rolls
from 1430-40 to determine when John Barre was given livery of the Barre
lands, and whether he had to prove his age, as that could determine
with certainty which year he was born.
Cheers, -----Brad
'Mapping the English Countryside' now has a proof of age for John Barre: inquisition May 1433 (ref: E-CIPM 24-125; TNA C 139/61/49) where his date of birth is stated as 31 January 1413 (presumably an error for 1412).

Oliver Fowler

W***@aol.com
2005-07-25 22:10:07 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 7/25/05 2:58:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
***@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< ALICE
Richard Archbishop of Dublin, :Lord Chancellor etc of Ireland
John born in 1390 he is John 1st Earl of Shrewsbury
Anne who had a son born on 3 May 1414 >>

For John, Earl of Shrewsbury's birth, I refer back to this posting by Brad
which I find very useful.

" Pollard, 'John Talbot', p. 7 n. 19: "There is no direct evidence of John's
date of birth. He was said to be over thirty in 1422. More exactly one can
assume that he was over twenty-one when he was summoned to his first
parliament in October 1409. By the same token he was probably not yet twenty-one in
October 1407, for he was not summoned to the parliament that met then, even
though he had already succeeded to the barony of Furnival. This suggests a date
of birth between 1386 and 1388. Such a time span is consistent with his still
being in his mother's household at Christmas 1401 and his maintaining his own
household at Montgomery in December 1404. Thus 1387 is unlikely to be more
than a year out."
- ***@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) on GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com May 2005


Will Johnson
Leo van de Pas
2005-07-25 23:14:36 UTC
Permalink
Many thanks Will.

I have changed in _my computer_ the year of birth for John and made him swap
places with Richard. This will show up with the next update. But we are
still in Alice's _wonderland_ when was she born?
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <***@netspeed.com.au>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: Some Descendants of Alice Talbot, Dame Barre
Post by W***@aol.com
In a message dated 7/25/05 2:58:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<< ALICE
Richard Archbishop of Dublin, :Lord Chancellor etc of Ireland
John born in 1390 he is John 1st Earl of Shrewsbury
Anne who had a son born on 3 May 1414 >>
For John, Earl of Shrewsbury's birth, I refer back to this posting by Brad
which I find very useful.
" Pollard, 'John Talbot', p. 7 n. 19: "There is no direct evidence of John's
date of birth. He was said to be over thirty in 1422. More exactly one can
assume that he was over twenty-one when he was summoned to his first
parliament in October 1409. By the same token he was probably not yet twenty-one in
October 1407, for he was not summoned to the parliament that met then, even
though he had already succeeded to the barony of Furnival. This suggests a date
of birth between 1386 and 1388. Such a time span is consistent with his still
being in his mother's household at Christmas 1401 and his maintaining his own
household at Montgomery in December 1404. Thus 1387 is unlikely to be more
than a year out."
Will Johnson
W***@aol.com
2005-07-26 00:02:21 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 7/25/05 4:30:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
***@hotmail.com writes:

<< A range of 1389/93 seems the best guess chronologically. Sorry for the
long answer to a straightforward question, but chronology is never easy
to work out. >>

It seems a bit too narrow. As you say we cannot know the birth order of the
younger children. John was born 1386/8, we cannot be sure that it was 1387 in
particular as far as I know. Assuming he was born in 1386 still gives us a
range of 1387/1397 for the other children sans Thomas. Or perhaps 1387/1396.

You seemed to shorten that 9 or 10 year gap to a five year old :)
Will Johnson
Brad Verity
2005-07-27 01:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by W***@aol.com
It seems a bit too narrow. As you say we cannot know the birth order of the
younger children. John was born 1386/8, we cannot be sure that it was 1387 in
particular as far as I know. Assuming he was born in 1386 still gives us a
range of 1387/1397 for the other children sans Thomas. Or perhaps 1387/1396.
You seemed to shorten that 9 or 10 year gap to a five year old :)
Dear Will,

I know, I know - I just hate big gaps in chronology. But as you state,
the range of 1387-97 covers the births of all five younger Talbot
children.

Cheers, ----Brad
M***@aol.com
2005-07-26 03:07:01 UTC
Permalink
Brad Verity posted some queries in response to my latest post:-

?sources for William Whittington
- the IPM of his grandfather Sir Guy Whittington, C139/105/2
- Sir Guy's Will, dated 30th April 1440 in PROB 11/3 ( I have found this very
difficult to read, but it clearly identifies his wife Cecily, known from
numerous sources as Cecily, d. and h. of John Browning of Rodborough and Notgrove,
and includes benefactions to the churches of Pauntley and Hope Solers).
-Shakespeare's Birthplace RO, DR3/ 264, is a settlement dated 20th December
1473, made by John Arundel, later Bishop of Coventry and Exeter, in favour of
his sister, William Whittington's widow Elizabeth, and her intended husband
Nicholas Brome of Baddesley Clinton
-I have not yet traced a Will, nor an IPM, for William. Help on this welcomed
- my source for him is a "Pedigree of the Family of Whittington of Pauntley,
Notgrove, Lye, Rodborough, Rodmarton, Tainton, Stroud, Lippiatt, and Cold
Ashton, in the County of Gloucester, collected from the pedigrees in the British
Museum, Herald's College and other sources", in the book "The Model Merchant of
the Middle Ages", Hamilton, Adams, and Co., London, 1860, by the Reverend
Samuel Lysons M.A.
Lysons gives a date of death of 1470, and states him to have been buried at
Greyfriars, London.
The "Model Merchant" of the title was Dick Whittington, Lord Mayor of London
under Richard II and Henry IV, younger brother of William's great-grandfather
Robert Whittington

?death of William's son John Whittington
-IPM 1526
-his Will dated 10th April 1525, proved 28th July 1525, PROB 11/25

?Thomas Whittington of Pauntley, date of death
-Will proved 12th September 1546, PROB 11/31

?Elizabeth Devereux
-yes she was the sister of Walter Devereux, husband of Anne Ferrers of
Chartley

All the best, Brad, and thanks for the prompt and instructive response
MM
Tim Powys-Lybbe
2005-07-26 09:19:48 UTC
Permalink
In message of 26 Jul, ***@aol.com wrote:

<snip>
Post by M***@aol.com
The "Model Merchant" of the title was Dick Whittington, Lord Mayor of
London under Richard II and Henry IV, younger brother of William's
great-grandfather Robert Whittington
I think you will find that he was only "Mayor of London" as they did
not become lord mayors until the end of the 15th century.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          ***@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Brad Verity
2005-07-27 01:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@aol.com
Brad Verity posted some queries in response to my latest post:-
Many thanks for providing all of the below. I'm going to incorporate
it into the list of Alice Talbot Descendants, and re-post the revised
list once I get the Hanmers worked out.
Post by M***@aol.com
?sources for William Whittington
- the IPM of his grandfather Sir Guy Whittington, C139/105/2
- Sir Guy's Will, dated 30th April 1440 in PROB 11/3 ( I have found this very
difficult to read, but it clearly identifies his wife Cecily, known from
numerous sources as Cecily, d. and h. of John Browning of Rodborough and Notgrove,
and includes benefactions to the churches of Pauntley and Hope Solers).
I have trouble deciphering medieval wills as well - even the ones in
English. It's the scripts they're written in that throws me off.
Post by M***@aol.com
-Shakespeare's Birthplace RO, DR3/ 264, is a settlement dated 20th December
1473, made by John Arundel, later Bishop of Coventry and Exeter, in favour of
his sister, William Whittington's widow Elizabeth, and her intended husband
Nicholas Brome of Baddesley Clinton
Oh, I vaguely recall a discussion in the newsgroup a couple years back
on the Arundel of Lanherne/Brome of Baddesley Clinton marriage. I'll
try and dig it out from the archives.
Post by M***@aol.com
-I have not yet traced a Will, nor an IPM, for William. Help on this welcomed
I'll check the Fine Rolls next time I'm at the Library and see if there
was a writ of diem clausit extremum issued for William Whittington. If
so, there's a good chance an IPM was undertaken.
Post by M***@aol.com
- my source for him is a "Pedigree of the Family of Whittington of Pauntley,
Notgrove, Lye, Rodborough, Rodmarton, Tainton, Stroud, Lippiatt, and Cold
Ashton, in the County of Gloucester, collected from the pedigrees in the British
Museum, Herald's College and other sources", in the book "The Model Merchant of
the Middle Ages", Hamilton, Adams, and Co., London, 1860, by the Reverend
Samuel Lysons M.A.
What a title! It's amazing how much genealogy was done in the
Victorian era - and how very little to nothing has been published since
on many of these families.
Post by M***@aol.com
Lysons gives a date of death of 1470, and states him to have been buried at
Greyfriars, London.
This at least I can help you with. From John Gough Nichols, 'Register
of the Sepulchral Inscriptions Existing Temp. Hen. VIII in the Church
of the Grey Friars, London' in Col. Top. et Gen., Volume 5 (1838), p.
284:

"----Willmus Whyttyngton armig et dns de Pauntley in com Glowcest, ob.
3 N[ov.] 1470."
Post by M***@aol.com
?death of William's son John Whittington
-IPM 1526
-his Will dated 10th April 1525, proved 28th July 1525, PROB 11/25
?Thomas Whittington of Pauntley, date of death
-Will proved 12th September 1546, PROB 11/31
Thanks for these - I'm glad their wills have survived.
Post by M***@aol.com
?Elizabeth Devereux
-yes she was the sister of Walter Devereux, husband of Anne Ferrers of
Chartley
She's out of my scope, then, not being descended from Edward I, but
many others on the newsgroup are interested in the early Devereuxes.

Thanks again and Cheers, ----Brad
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-26 08:49:22 UTC
Permalink
Thanks from me too Brad for a fascinating post. A few thoughts that
haven't already been raised:

Brad Verity wrote:

(heavily snipped)
Post by Brad Verity
2A) THOMAS CORNEWALL, esquire, of Burford, born 1430/5, became the heir
of his grandfather, who arranged his marriage to Elizabeth (d. 1489),
daughter of Sir Rowland Lenthall (d. Nov. 1450), by his second wife
Lucy Grey. Revenue from the Cornewalls' Stapleton Castle in
Herefordshire, was part of the marriage settlement, and after the 1443
death of Richard Cornewall, Lenthall claimed he'd been defrauded.
Thomas Cornewall came of age in the 1450s and was a firm Lancastrian.
He was attainted in 1461 in Edward IV's first Parliament, and all of
his properties forfeited. He died shortly after 1472, when his son and
heir successfully petitioned the crown to be restored to the family
lands after his father's death. I haven't yet found a full list of
the children of Thomas Cornewall and Elizabeth Lenthall, but they had
at least one son
A putative daughter for Thomas and Lucy would be the 'Ann, daughter of
Sir Thomas Cornwall of Burford' given as wife to William Vaughan of
Rhydhelyg and Clifford (fl.1475). Vaughan was a Yorkist, but that
doesn't necessarily rule it out.
Post by Brad Verity
2B3) Sir EDWARD CROFT, of Croft Castle, born about 1465, sheriff of
Herefordshire 1505, married Joyce Scull, said to be daughter of Sir
Walter Scull, of Holt Castle, Worcestershire (d. about 1472; buried at
Holt Castle church), by his first wife Margaret Beauchamp of Holt (d.
1456; buried at Holt Castle church), but this seems unlikely due to
chronology, and she was probably his daughter by his second wife
Frances Mulle (d. 1483).
I think the VCH Worcs, sub Holt, backs this up- Joyce isn't given as an
heiress of Margaret Beauchamp, although the latter's coheiresses by
Scull did apparently marry other members of the Croft family.
Post by Brad Verity
Post by Brad Verity
3) JOAN BARRE, born 1415/20, married Sir Kynard de la Bere (d. by
1465), of Kinnersley Castle, Herefordshire, escheator of Herefordshire
and the West Marches 1438-9, son and heir of Sir Richard de la Bere, of
Kinnersley, MP Herefordshire, by his first wife Sybil Chabbonare.
Kynard and Joan were granted the manor of "Dorsington" (Dorston in
Herefordshire?), by Richard, duke of York. She died before 1474,
having had one son and three daughters. Her husband predeceased her.
Confusingly, I have a note that this Joan was married in 1453, as his
second wife, to Sir William Catesby (d.1478). I think it must have come
either from an HoP volume or from the new DNB. Maybe it's in error but
it might be worth a check. Incidentally, there is also a place called
Dormington in Herefordshire, in case that's another possibility for
'Dorsington'.
Post by Brad Verity
4) ANKARET BARRE, born 1415/20, married John Hanmer, esquire, and died
after 1474, leaving a son and heir, William Hanmer, who was found to be
a co-heir to Isabel Barre, countess of Devon, in September 1489. I'm
in the process of researching the Hanmers.
You probably know already, but there is an unreliable Barre pedigree in
the 1400-1500 series of Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies (under 'Barry 3').
(It also gives Thomas and Alice a daughter Letus, who married 'Thomas
(Robert?) Corbet of Moreton'.) Anyway, it might be worth looking at the
Hanmer pedigrees in the same volumes (or not).

Matthew
Brad Verity
2005-07-27 01:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Thanks from me too Brad for a fascinating post. A few thoughts that
Thank you, Matthew. I've interspersed comments below.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
A putative daughter for Thomas and Lucy would be the 'Ann, daughter of
Sir Thomas Cornwall of Burford' given as wife to William Vaughan of
Rhydhelyg and Clifford (fl.1475). Vaughan was a Yorkist, but that
doesn't necessarily rule it out.
This is a great addition - I'll see what I can dig up on this Anne
Cornewall and her husband William Vaughan, and add her onto the list of
Alice Talbot's Descendants.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
I think the VCH Worcs, sub Holt, backs this up- Joyce isn't given as an
heiress of Margaret Beauchamp, although the latter's coheiresses by
Scull did apparently marry other members of the Croft family.
Oh! VCH has covered Holt Castle - excellent. I'm very confused with
Margaret Beauchamp's children, as the HOP bio of her father is no help
and I don't have a copy of CP's article on Beauchamp, Lords
Kidderminster. I've added the VCH Worcs volume to my Library list.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Confusingly, I have a note that this Joan was married in 1453, as his
second wife, to Sir William Catesby (d.1478). I think it must have come
either from an HoP volume or from the new DNB. Maybe it's in error but
it might be worth a check.
I remember reading a post from John Higgins that came through the
newsgroup mailing list yesterday, but for some reason has not made it
onto Google. Anyway, he mentioned that Joan West, the daughter of
Thomas, 1st Lord West, and the wife of Richard Delamare, father of
Kynard Delamare, married secondly Sir William Catesby.

So it seems we have two widowed Joan Delameres in the 15th century -
Joan West, wife of Richard, and her daughter-in-law Joan Barre, wife of
Kynard - either one of whom could have married Catesby.

If there is any source that provides a death date for Catesby's wife
Joan, that may help clear things up. Joan Barre was definitely
deceased before 1474, so if Catesby's wife Joan was known to have been
alive after that date, it must have been Joan West who married him.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Incidentally, there is also a place called
Dormington in Herefordshire, in case that's another possibility for
'Dorsington'.
Thank you. It's interesting that Richard, duke of York, granted this
manor to Kynard Delamare and Joan Barre.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
You probably know already, but there is an unreliable Barre pedigree in
the 1400-1500 series of Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies (under 'Barry 3').
I didn't know about this pedigree, but I can confirm its unreliable -
see below.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
(It also gives Thomas and Alice a daughter Letus, who married 'Thomas
(Robert?) Corbet of Moreton'.)
No - that is definitely an error. Even if Letus (Lettice?) had died
without issue by Corbet of Moreton (or their issue failed by 1489, when
the Barre inheritance was divided among the descendants of Alice
Talbot's daughters), she still would have been mentioned in the 1474
founding of the Barre family chantry in Clehonger church. All the
other children of Alice Talbot - including her Delamere ones - had
their souls provided for.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Anyway, it might be worth looking at the
Hanmer pedigrees in the same volumes (or not).
As I'm at a complete loss in placing John Hanmer, husband of Ankaret
Barre, I will definitely start with Bartrum. Many thanks for the
suggestion!

Cheers, -------Brad
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-27 18:59:49 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for addressing all the points, Brad. You can find the Vaughans
in question in Bartrum as well, in the 1400-1500 'Drymbenog' pages. The
William married to Ann Cornwall was son of Watkin Vaughan of
Bredwardine (d.1456), eldest son of the Sir Roger who died at
Agincourt. Good searching!

Matthew.
Post by Brad Verity
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Thanks from me too Brad for a fascinating post. A few thoughts that
Thank you, Matthew. I've interspersed comments below.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
A putative daughter for Thomas and Lucy would be the 'Ann, daughter of
Sir Thomas Cornwall of Burford' given as wife to William Vaughan of
Rhydhelyg and Clifford (fl.1475). Vaughan was a Yorkist, but that
doesn't necessarily rule it out.
This is a great addition - I'll see what I can dig up on this Anne
Cornewall and her husband William Vaughan, and add her onto the list of
Alice Talbot's Descendants.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
I think the VCH Worcs, sub Holt, backs this up- Joyce isn't given as an
heiress of Margaret Beauchamp, although the latter's coheiresses by
Scull did apparently marry other members of the Croft family.
Oh! VCH has covered Holt Castle - excellent. I'm very confused with
Margaret Beauchamp's children, as the HOP bio of her father is no help
and I don't have a copy of CP's article on Beauchamp, Lords
Kidderminster. I've added the VCH Worcs volume to my Library list.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Confusingly, I have a note that this Joan was married in 1453, as his
second wife, to Sir William Catesby (d.1478). I think it must have come
either from an HoP volume or from the new DNB. Maybe it's in error but
it might be worth a check.
I remember reading a post from John Higgins that came through the
newsgroup mailing list yesterday, but for some reason has not made it
onto Google. Anyway, he mentioned that Joan West, the daughter of
Thomas, 1st Lord West, and the wife of Richard Delamare, father of
Kynard Delamare, married secondly Sir William Catesby.
So it seems we have two widowed Joan Delameres in the 15th century -
Joan West, wife of Richard, and her daughter-in-law Joan Barre, wife of
Kynard - either one of whom could have married Catesby.
If there is any source that provides a death date for Catesby's wife
Joan, that may help clear things up. Joan Barre was definitely
deceased before 1474, so if Catesby's wife Joan was known to have been
alive after that date, it must have been Joan West who married him.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Incidentally, there is also a place called
Dormington in Herefordshire, in case that's another possibility for
'Dorsington'.
Thank you. It's interesting that Richard, duke of York, granted this
manor to Kynard Delamare and Joan Barre.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
You probably know already, but there is an unreliable Barre pedigree in
the 1400-1500 series of Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies (under 'Barry 3').
I didn't know about this pedigree, but I can confirm its unreliable -
see below.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
(It also gives Thomas and Alice a daughter Letus, who married 'Thomas
(Robert?) Corbet of Moreton'.)
No - that is definitely an error. Even if Letus (Lettice?) had died
without issue by Corbet of Moreton (or their issue failed by 1489, when
the Barre inheritance was divided among the descendants of Alice
Talbot's daughters), she still would have been mentioned in the 1474
founding of the Barre family chantry in Clehonger church. All the
other children of Alice Talbot - including her Delamere ones - had
their souls provided for.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Anyway, it might be worth looking at the
Hanmer pedigrees in the same volumes (or not).
As I'm at a complete loss in placing John Hanmer, husband of Ankaret
Barre, I will definitely start with Bartrum. Many thanks for the
suggestion!
Cheers, -------Brad
CE Wood
2017-01-12 23:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Found at: http://tinyurl.com/jelxasb

Roskell, _Parliament and Politics in Late Medieval England, Volume 2_, p. 313:

"His [William Catesby]...second marriage: 1 with Joan, daughter of Sir Thomas Barre and widow of a Herefordshire knight, Sir Kynard de la Bere of Kynnersley. She was very well connected, being on her mother's side a niece of John Talbot, first Earl of Shrewsbury....

1. Baker, loc. cit. (Wedgewood [loc.cit.] is in error in making Sir William Catesby's marriage with Joan Barre his first one, and his marriage with Philippa Bishopton his second. Philippas died on 20 December 1446, Joan on 11 August 1471.)"

CE Wood
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Thanks from me too Brad for a fascinating post. A few thoughts that
SNIP
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Confusingly, I have a note that this Joan was married in 1453, as his
second wife, to Sir William Catesby (d.1478). I think it must have come
either from an HoP volume or from the new DNB. Maybe it's in error but
it might be worth a check. Incidentally, there is also a place called
Dormington in Herefordshire, in case that's another possibility for
'Dorsington'.
Matthew
M***@aol.com
2005-07-26 12:33:17 UTC
Permalink
Tim Powys-Lybbe kindly corrected my solecism as to Dick Whittington, without
adding any deserved rebuke. Thanks, Tim, and apologies to the group
MM
M***@aol.com
2005-07-28 14:26:33 UTC
Permalink
Thanks very much, Brad, for the helpful reference to William Whittington's
1470 MI at Greyfriars. Let me know if there's any help I can give you in
decyphering or translating any medieval Wills etc, though I realise that I am far
below other SGM
group members in expertise
MM
Greg Vaut
2006-05-07 18:09:01 UTC
Permalink
To Brad Verity and Leo van de Pas:

In the message below Brad identifies a Joan Barre (b. 1415/1420) who
married "Sir Kynard de la Bere" (d. by 1465). Brad shows four
children: Sir Richard (ca 1448 - 15 Jul 1514); Anne; Elizabeth; and Jane.

Leo van de Pas has a Joanna Barre who married a "Kynard Delabere" (at
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00232187&tree=LEO)
with two children: Richard of Kindersley (d. 15 jul 1514) and Alice (m.
Sir John Blount of Kinlet).

Brad's Sir Richard had two wives: 1. Anne Audley (dau. of John Lord
Audley) and 2. Elizabeth Mores (dau. of William Mores).

Leo's Richard of Kindersley had two wives: 1. Anne Touchet (dau. of
James, 5th Lord Audley) and Elizabeth Morris (no father given).

Are Joan Barre (m. Sir Kynard de la Bere) and Joanna Barre (m. Kynard
Delabere) the same person or are they of different lines???

Regards to all,
Greg Vaut
Post by Brad Verity
Alice Talbot, the third daughter of Richard, 4th Lord Talbot, and
Ankaret, Lady Strange of Blakemere, is a key gateway for the
Herefordshire gentry to a descent from Edward I. For the eleven
families descended from her by 1500 listed below, she is the only link
to such a descent for all but one.
She was born 1389/93, and was a younger sister of John Talbot, the 1st
Earl of Shrewsbury. In 1412, her widowed mother arranged her marriage
to Sir Thomas Barre, 'Junior', the son and heir of Sir Thomas Barre,
'Senior', of Rotherwas (in Dinedor) and Clehonger, Herefordshire, by
his wife Elizabeth Croyser.
By Sir Thomas Barre, Alice had a son and three daughters, before her
husband died, probably fighting in France, in the late summer or autumn
of 1420. He predeceased his father, Sir Thomas Barre 'Senior', who
died in December 1420.
Alice married secondly, Richard de la Mere, sheriff of Herefordshire
1422-3, whose parentage I've not been able to determine. He was not
the Richard de la Mere, MP, whose bio is in Roskell's HOP. Instead, he
was likely of the family of Sir Peter de la Mere, Speaker of the House
of Commons under Richard II, as they were based in Herefordshire. By
him she had another son and two more daughters (who apparently died
unmarried), and died in 1436.
1) Sir JOHN BARRE, born late 1412 (he was found to be age "9 and more"
in the September 1421 Herefordshire IPM of his grandfather). He was
knighted 1441/2, MP Herefordshire 1445-6, 1447, Gloucestershire 1450-1,
Herefordshire 1459., sheriff of Herefordshire and the West Marches,
1454-5. He married 1st, Idoine, daughter and heiress of Sir John
Hotoft (d. 1443), of Knebworth House, Hertfordshire, Treasurer of the
Household of Henry VI. He married 2nd, Joan (d. 10 Aug. 1484), widow
of Sir Robert Greyndore (d. 1443) of Clearwell Court, Gloucestershire,
and daughter and heiress of Thomas Rugge, of Charlecombe, Somerset. He
died 14 Jan. 1483, and was buried at All Saints' Church, Clehonger,
where he had founded a chantry for his family in 1474. He had (by his
1A) ISABEL BARRE, COUNTESS OF DEVON. She married 1st, after 1450, Sir
Humphrey Stafford (1439-17 Aug. 1469), of Hook, co. Dorset, cr. Baron
Stafford of Southwick 1464, Earl of Devon 1469, by whom she had no
surviving issue. She married 2nd, about 1472, Sir Thomas Bourchier (d.
26 Oct. 1491), younger son of Henry, Earl of Essex, and died 1 March
1489. Her remains were removed to her husband Bourchier's tomb in
1A1) ISABEL BOURCHIER, born 24 April 1474; died young before her
mother.
1A2) JOAN BOURCHIER, born 18 March 1475; died in infancy.
2) ELIZABETH BARRE, eldest daughter, born about 1414. She was married
to Edmund Cornewall, knight, eldest son and heir of Richard Cornewall
(d. January 1443), esquire, 'baron' of Burford, Salop, by his wife
Alice Merbury (d. 1417). From HOP: "The Cornewalls of Burford were
the younger branch of an ancient family which traced its descent from
an illegitimate son of Richard, Earl of Cornwall, brother of Henry III.
It was possibly their sense of this distinguished ancestry which
caused them to style themselves Barons of Burford, although none of
their line had ever been summoned to Parliament. They owned extensive
property in Devon, Herefordshire, Shropshire and the midlands."
Edmund, who was born about 1382, died before his father in Cologne in
1435, and was buried in St. Mary church, Burford. Over thirty years
younger than her husband, Elizabeth had only one son and one daughter
2A) THOMAS CORNEWALL, esquire, of Burford, born 1430/5, became the heir
of his grandfather, who arranged his marriage to Elizabeth (d. 1489),
daughter of Sir Rowland Lenthall (d. Nov. 1450), by his second wife
Lucy Grey. Revenue from the Cornewalls' Stapleton Castle in
Herefordshire, was part of the marriage settlement, and after the 1443
death of Richard Cornewall, Lenthall claimed he'd been defrauded.
Thomas Cornewall came of age in the 1450s and was a firm Lancastrian.
He was attainted in 1461 in Edward IV's first Parliament, and all of
his properties forfeited. He died shortly after 1472, when his son and
heir successfully petitioned the crown to be restored to the family
lands after his father's death. I haven't yet found a full list of
the children of Thomas Cornewall and Elizabeth Lenthall, but they had
2A1) Sir EDMUND CORNEWALL, of Burford, born 1455/9 (said to be age 30
and more in Oct. 1489), who had all the family lands restored shortly
after 1472/3. He married Margaret (d. 1498), daughter and coheiress of
Thomas Horde of Bridgnorth, Shropshire, MP. In October 1489, he was
found to be a coheir to Isabel Barre, countess of Devon, but died
shortly afterwards, on 8 Dec. 1489. From Sir Edmund descends the vast
Cornewall family of Burford.
2B) ELEANOR CORNEWALL, born 1430/5, married 1st, Sir Hugh Mortimer, of
Kyre Wyard and Martley, Worcestershire, and Tedstone Wafer,
Herefordshire, heir of the Tedstone Wafer Mortimers. He was killed at
Wakefield in December 1460, and was buried in the Church of St. Peter,
Martley. By him she had a son and a daughter. She married 2nd, Sir
Richard Croft (d. 29 July 1509), of Croft Castle, Herefordshire,
sheriff of Herefordshire 1471-72, 1477, 1486, MP Herefordshire 1477,
and had three more sons and five more daughters. The Crofts had
occupied Croft Castle since before the Conquest. Eleanor was the
governess of Edward IV's sons at Ludlow Castle. She died 23 Dec.
1519, at an advanced age, and was buried with her second husband in the
2B1) Sir JOHN MORTIMER, of Kyre Wyard, etc., born 1450/5, sheriff of
Herefordshire 1477-8, 1481-2, steward of Abberley, Worcestershire
during Warwick's minority 15 Aug. 1480, Squire of the Body 1481-5,
knighted 1485, Knight of the Body 1485-1504, sheriff of Worcestershire
1485-6, banneret at Stoke 16 June 1487, sheriff of Herefordshire
1493-4, 1501-2, MP Worcestershire 1495. He married, after 1485,
Margaret Nevill (c.1466-31 Jan. 1528), third daughter and co-heiress of
John Nevill, Marquess of Montagu (d. 1471) by his wife Isabel
Ingaldesthorpe. They had no issue, and Margaret went on to marry
Charles Brandon, have it annulled the same year (1507), and then marry
in 1522, one Robert Downes, in addition to having had an illegitimate
daughter. Sir John Mortimer died without issue in October 1504 (writ
of d.c.e. 1 Nov. 1504).
2B2) ELIZABETH MORTIMER, LADY DE LA WARR, born 1455/60, married about
1480, Sir Thomas West, 8th Lord De La Warr (c.1457- 11 Oct. 1525), and
died 29 June 1502, having had issue at least one son and four
daughters.
2B3) Sir EDWARD CROFT, of Croft Castle, born about 1465, sheriff of
Herefordshire 1505, married Joyce Scull, said to be daughter of Sir
Walter Scull, of Holt Castle, Worcestershire (d. about 1472; buried at
Holt Castle church), by his first wife Margaret Beauchamp of Holt (d.
1456; buried at Holt Castle church), but this seems unlikely due to
chronology, and she was probably his daughter by his second wife
Frances Mulle (d. 1483). Sir Edward died 23 March 1541, having had
four sons and seven daughters, and was ancestor of the Crofts of Croft
Castle, descendants of whom still occupy the castle today.
2B4) JOHN CROFT, of Holt, Worcestershire, born 1465/70, married
Elizabeth Seymour, daughter of John Seymour of Wolf Hall, Wiltshire (d.
1491), by his wife Elizabeth Darrell, and was ancestor of the Crofts of
Holt.
2B5) ROBERT CROFT, of Kyre Wyard, Worcestershire, married and had a
sole daughter and heiress.
2B6) ANN CROFT, married Sir Thomas Blount (1455- 4 June 1524), of
Kinlet, Shropshire, and died 27 Sep. 1549, having had at least five
sons and six daughters.
2B7) ELIZABETH CROFT, married John Whittingham, of Pauntley,
Gloucestershire.
2B8) JOYCE CROFT, married Thomas Mill, of Avenbury, Herefordshire.
2B9) JANE CROFT, married Sir Edward Darrell (1465/6- 9 Mar. 1530), of
Littlecote, Witshire, and died by 1492, having had issue, two sons and
two daughters.
2B10) SYBIL CROFT, married Sir George Herbert (c.1463/5- died after
1504), of St Julians, Monmouthshire, third son of William Herbert, Earl
of Pembroke. He was knighted in 1487 at the battle of Stoke. Dame
Sybil had two sons and one daughter.
3) JOAN BARRE, born 1415/20, married Sir Kynard de la Bere (d. by
1465), of Kinnersley Castle, Herefordshire, escheator of Herefordshire
and the West Marches 1438-9, son and heir of Sir Richard de la Bere, of
Kinnersley, MP Herefordshire, by his first wife Sybil Chabbonare.
Kynard and Joan were granted the manor of "Dorsington" (Dorston in
Herefordshire?), by Richard, duke of York. She died before 1474,
having had one son and three daughters. Her husband predeceased her.
3A) Sir RICHARD DELABERE, of Kinnersley, born about 1448, knighted 17
Jan. 1478, sheriff of Herefordshire 1478-9, 1482-3, 1492-3, 1510-11, MP
Herefordshire 1495, adhered to Buckingham in his 1483 rebellion, and
pardoned by Richard III 5 Nov. 1484; made banneret at Stoke 1487, found
co-heir to Isabel Barre, countess of Devon, in September 1489. He
married 1st, Anne Audley, daughter of John, Lord Audley, by his second
wife Eleanor Holland, and had one son and four daughters. He married
2ndly, Elizabeth (married 2ndly, Thomas Baskerville, esquire), daughter
of William Mores, Sergeant to the Hall of Henry VII, and had a further
ten sons and six daughters. Sir Richard died 15 July 1514, and was
buried in Hereford Cathedral. By his second wife he was ancestor of
the Delaberes of Herefordshire and Gloucestershire. By his first wife,
3A1) THOMAS DELABERE, of Kinnersley, etc., died without issue 1518/19.
3A2) ANNE DELABERE, married John Pye (1444-1550; buried St Davids
church, Much Dewchurch), of Mynd Park, Much Dewchurch, Herefordshire.
They had many children.
3B) ANNE DELABERE
3C) ELIZABETH DELABERE
3D) JANE DELABERE, all alive and unmarried in 1465/70, when they sued
their brother Richard for their marriage portions.
4) ANKARET BARRE, born 1415/20, married John Hanmer, esquire, and died
after 1474, leaving a son and heir, William Hanmer, who was found to be
a co-heir to Isabel Barre, countess of Devon, in September 1489. I'm
in the process of researching the Hanmers.
Cheers, -----Brad
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