Discussion:
Cecily Baskerville Steward
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Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2021-10-16 11:18:49 UTC
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Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
Will Johnson
2021-10-16 17:05:59 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
Wikitree as usual puts the cart on top of the horse, not even before it.

The first steps to fix this mish-mash is to prove that Oliver Cromwell's mother's name was Steward, and that *her* father's name was William and who his wife was and who his parents were.

It's a house of cards.
John Higgins
2021-10-16 18:24:29 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
Wikitree as usual puts the cart on top of the horse, not even before it.
The first steps to fix this mish-mash is to prove that Oliver Cromwell's mother's name was Steward, and that *her* father's name was William and who his wife was and who his parents were.
It's a house of cards.
With respect to the Steward family, did you check out the article cited in source 4 in the Wikitree pedigree?
Will Johnson
2021-10-16 18:38:09 UTC
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Post by John Higgins
Post by Will Johnson
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
Wikitree as usual puts the cart on top of the horse, not even before it.
The first steps to fix this mish-mash is to prove that Oliver Cromwell's mother's name was Steward, and that *her* father's name was William and who his wife was and who his parents were.
It's a house of cards.
With respect to the Steward family, did you check out the article cited in source 4 in the Wikitree pedigree?
I think the main issue, isn't necessarily that there is an MS which *states* it, but as you yourself pointed out in another thread, these MS can be creations to aggrandize their owners, *even* in the early modern period. They don't have to be 19th fabrications. Genealogists were fabricating in the 17th century as well.

The article by Rye which focuses on disproving the Steward royal claims, doesn't say much too much about the real line to Nicholas of the Temple, except that such a person existed. And other than the blank claims of the wifes from the MS, the author doesn't purport to support those at all. Just states them.

So we are still in need of a credible source for the name of the wife of William Steward buried at Ely Cathedral in 1593
taf
2021-10-16 18:47:53 UTC
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Post by Will Johnson
The article by Rye which focuses on disproving the Steward royal claims, doesn't say
much too much about the real line to Nicholas of the Temple, except that such a person
existed. And other than the blank claims of the wifes from the MS, the author doesn't
purport to support those at all. Just states them.
In the first sentence he refers to an article he had published int he previous volume:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112047090714&view=1up&seq=170&skin=2021

though it is more in lines of reproducing an unpublished pedigree rather than evaluating it.

taf
John Higgins
2021-10-16 18:50:52 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?
Will Johnson
2021-10-16 19:24:02 UTC
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Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?
The MS evidently states that she was the "heiress" of some unspecified Baskerville (not a John in particular)
That seems odd to me if her parents were anyone of note at all.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2021-10-16 20:42:59 UTC
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Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?
I just did and the Visitation does make Cecily daughter of a John Baskerville. I doubt it's the same as the husband of Eleanor Wolcott, though, as Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2021-10-16 21:35:16 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?
I just did and the Visitation does make Cecily daughter of a John Baskerville. I doubt it's the same as the husband of Eleanor Wolcott, though, as Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire.
Would you post a link to the Visitation itself?
https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/268/mode/2up
Will Johnson
2021-10-16 21:39:17 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?
I just did and the Visitation does make Cecily daughter of a John Baskerville. I doubt it's the same as the husband of Eleanor Wolcott, though, as Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire.
Would you post a link to the Visitation itself?
https://archive.org/details/visitacionievisi32ryew/page/268/mode/2up
If you look here at the Vis Camb we have a problem

https://archive.org/details/visitationcambr00britgoog/page/n24/mode/1up?q=Steward

This Vis appears to clearly state that Cicely Baskerville was a later wife, not the mother of any of these children here listed.
John Higgins
2021-10-17 03:23:24 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?
I just did and the Visitation does make Cecily daughter of a John Baskerville. I doubt it's the same as the husband of Eleanor Wolcott, though, as Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire.
So... you looked at ONE source only, out of the many that are listed? You should check out the sources for Eleanor "Wolcott". All three of the sources given for her say that her surname was Holcott, not Wolcott. And none of those sources give the couple a daughter Cecily. Does that give you cause to have some doubt about the Wikitree pedigree's identification of the supposed parents of Cecily?

John was a pretty common name in the Baskerville family. It looks to me like someone just guessed as to which John was her father - and guessed wrong.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2021-10-17 10:34:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Oliver Cromwell was descended from Nicholas Steward and Cecily Baskerville. As https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-13 says, the Visitation of Norfolk makes her daughter of an unspecified John Baskerville. However, Wikitree also makes her daughter of John Baskerville and Eleanor Wolcott. That John Baskerville had several royal descents. Is there any evidence for this identification?
Did you check out the sources listed in the Wikitree pedigree for Cecily's parents?
I just did and the Visitation does make Cecily daughter of a John Baskerville. I doubt it's the same as the husband of Eleanor Wolcott, though, as Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire.
So... you looked at ONE source only, out of the many that are listed? You should check out the sources for Eleanor "Wolcott". All three of the sources given for her say that her surname was Holcott, not Wolcott. And none of those sources give the couple a daughter Cecily. Does that give you cause to have some doubt about the Wikitree pedigree's identification of the supposed parents of Cecily?
John was a pretty common name in the Baskerville family. It looks to me like someone just guessed as to which John was her father - and guessed wrong.
Sorry. I thought you were refering to Cecily's profile. As I said, I already doubted the identification simply because Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire. Was there any Baskerville family in Norfolk or a neighboring county?
taf
2021-10-17 12:55:42 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Sorry. I thought you were refering to Cecily's profile. As I said, I already doubted the identification simply because Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire. Was there any Baskerville family in Norfolk or a neighboring county?
There was a Nicholas Baskerville in Norwich mid-century, who appears in PCC probate registers per TNA catalogue.

taf
Ian Goddard
2021-10-17 15:11:37 UTC
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Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
simply because Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire
They're not adjacent, Cambridgeshire is in between them, but not very
far apart. Were you thinking of Herefordshire?

Ian
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2021-10-17 15:20:12 UTC
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Post by Ian Goddard
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
simply because Norfolk is far from Hertfordshire
They're not adjacent, Cambridgeshire is in between them, but not very
far apart. Were you thinking of Herefordshire?
Ian
I actually meant Herefordshire but miswrote.

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