Discussion:
Did Eadeward marry twice?
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paulorica...@gmail.com
2021-04-23 00:43:34 UTC
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In his article about Agatha, wife of Eadeward the Exile, John Carmi Parsons proposed two additional theories, one is the Cristinus Hypothesis. The other that was only very briefly discussed is that Eadeward married twice. What do you think of that possibility? I am asking as I don't think it has been discussed here before.
Peter Stewart
2021-04-23 01:03:06 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
In his article about Agatha, wife of Eadeward the Exile, John Carmi Parsons proposed two additional theories, one is the Cristinus Hypothesis. The other that was only very briefly discussed is that Eadeward married twice. What do you think of that possibility? I am asking as I don't think it has been discussed here before.
It's not very likely to be discussed here now unless you take the
trouble to give some more information. I assume you mean an article in
*The Plantagenet Connection* from 2002, but if so I haven't seen it and
I don't suppose many SGM readers have it committed to memory.

Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
2021-04-23 01:51:38 UTC
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Post by Peter Stewart
Post by ***@gmail.com
In his article about Agatha, wife of Eadeward the Exile, John Carmi
Parsons proposed two additional theories, one is the Cristinus
Hypothesis. The other that was only very briefly discussed is that
Eadeward married twice. What do you think of that possibility? I am
asking as I don't think it has been discussed here before.
It's not very likely to be discussed here now unless you take the
trouble to give some more information. I assume you mean an article in
*The Plantagenet Connection* from 2002, but if so I haven't seen it and
I don't suppose many SGM readers have it committed to memory.
As it turns out I do have a copy of the article, forgotten.

The relevant part that Paulo asks to discuss is on pp. 52-53, copied below.

Peter Stewart


from John Carmi Parsons, Edward the Ætheling's wife, Agatha, *The
Plantagenet Connection* 10 (Summer/Winter 2002) 52-53:

"Just to confuse matters further, I offer two more theories to indicate
just how far we are from the last word on this question. First, did
Edward Ætheling marry twice? An early marriage to a Kievan lady who soon
died could fit Edward's life chronologically; Agatha would have been a
second wife. But even this idea would demand that we accept the Leges
Edwardi texts and, as I maintain above, they’re far too late to be
regarded as authoritative.

Second, if Edward did perhaps take a "noble" wife in Kiev, a lady
descended from the Rurikids, we might just look for her among the issue
of Vladimir I's daughter (anonyma), who wed Count Bernard of
Haldensleben in 991/92. They could have had a daughter near in age to
Edward, born in 1015/16, but chronologically it is more likely that such
a lady would have been their granddaughter. Here we find a striking
prospect: Oda, daughter of the Haldensleben—Kiev couple, married Count
Cristinus, nephew of B1. Bruno of Querfurt (who d. 1009). Cristinus'
name could explain that of Agatha's daughter Christina more plausibly
than a Swedish origin for "Agafia"'s mother since, as Javsic notes, the
name Christina appeared in the Swedish royal house only after Agatha's
daughter would have been named.

Descent from the Kiev—Haldensleben marriage would satisfy a thesis
(however ill-founded) of Agatha's Kievan descent, and the later claim
that in Russia the Ætheling married a lady of noble blood (since we
might expect that Haldensleben descendants would visit Kiev, or be
fostered there). It also accords with the identification of the
Ætheling's wife as an emperor's kinswoman, if we accept the filiation of
Bernard of Haldensleben's mother-in—law, one of Vladimir I's wives, as a
daughter (anonyma, b.ca. 961, married ca. 980, d. by 989) of Conrad I of
Swabia (d. 997) by Richlind, daughter of Liudolf of Swabia, Emperor Otto
I's son by the Anglo-Saxon Edith. Conrad I and Richlind were
grandparents of Gisela (d. 1043), wife (in her third marriage) of
Emperor Conrad II (d. 1039) and mother of Henry [p. 53] III (d. 1046).
If Agatha did descend from the Swabian pair through the
Kiev-Haldensleben marriage, she would have been Henry III's second
cousin once removed and could have been called his mæg [footnote: An
Anglo-Saxon word that signifies an indistinct but fairly remote degree of
kinship - i.e., a "kinsman" (distant cousin) rather than a near relative
such as a first cousin.], as in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle [footnote: I
freely acknowledge that not all these connections are unreservedly
accepted, but for Vladimir I's wife as a daughter of Conrad I of Swabia
and Otto I's granddaughter Richlind, see Armin Wolf, "Wer war Kuno 'von
[Ö]hningen'?", Deutsches Archiv f[ü]r Erforschung des Mittelalters, 36
(1980), 25-83. Kinship between the Ætheling and Agatha would have been
so remote as to avoid complications of consanguinity: Agatha (b.
1020/25), dau. of Cristinus and Oda (b. 1000/05?), dau. of Bernard of
Haldensleben and NF of Kiev (b. 980/85?), dau. of Vladimir I of Kiev and
NF (b. ca. 961), dau. of Conrad I of Swabia (d. 997) and Richlinde (b.
ca. 948), dau. of Lindolf of Saxony (930-957), s. of Otto the Great and
Edith (m. 929) dau. of Edward the Elder (d. 924) by [Æ]lflaed; Edward
the Elder, father by Eadgifu of Edmund the Elder (r. 940-46), f. of
Edgar (943-75), f. of Æthelred II (968-1016), f. of Edmund "Ironside"
(993-1016), f. of Edward the Ætheling (1016-1057), in. ca. 1043 Agatha
(b. 1020/25?)].

This theory - it is no more than that - offers an hypothetical
individual who meets the criteria of kinship with the Kievan house and
an emperor. Of course, while this Agatha would be an emperor's cousin,
she would not be his brother's daughter. And she would be only a distant
cousin to Anastasia of Kiev. We might, however, suppose that Agatha and
Edward perhaps went from Kiev to Hungary with Anastasia in 1046, or
followed her there at a later date. Still, it must be kept in mind that
the sources attaching the Ætheling's wife to the Kievan house are of
such late date that we cannot accept them without serious reservations.
I end by restating that I advance neither of the above theories as
magisterial - only to show that the door is not yet firmly closed."
paulorica...@gmail.com
2021-04-23 22:49:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by Peter Stewart
Post by ***@gmail.com
In his article about Agatha, wife of Eadeward the Exile, John Carmi
Parsons proposed two additional theories, one is the Cristinus
Hypothesis. The other that was only very briefly discussed is that
Eadeward married twice. What do you think of that possibility? I am
asking as I don't think it has been discussed here before.
It's not very likely to be discussed here now unless you take the
trouble to give some more information. I assume you mean an article in
*The Plantagenet Connection* from 2002, but if so I haven't seen it and
I don't suppose many SGM readers have it committed to memory.
As it turns out I do have a copy of the article, forgotten.
The relevant part that Paulo asks to discuss is on pp. 52-53, copied below.
Peter Stewart
from John Carmi Parsons, Edward the Ætheling's wife, Agatha, *The
"Just to confuse matters further, I offer two more theories to indicate
just how far we are from the last word on this question. First, did
Edward Ætheling marry twice? An early marriage to a Kievan lady who soon
died could fit Edward's life chronologically; Agatha would have been a
second wife. But even this idea would demand that we accept the Leges
Edwardi texts and, as I maintain above, they’re far too late to be
regarded as authoritative.
Second, if Edward did perhaps take a "noble" wife in Kiev, a lady
descended from the Rurikids, we might just look for her among the issue
of Vladimir I's daughter (anonyma), who wed Count Bernard of
Haldensleben in 991/92. They could have had a daughter near in age to
Edward, born in 1015/16, but chronologically it is more likely that such
a lady would have been their granddaughter. Here we find a striking
prospect: Oda, daughter of the Haldensleben—Kiev couple, married Count
Cristinus, nephew of B1. Bruno of Querfurt (who d. 1009). Cristinus'
name could explain that of Agatha's daughter Christina more plausibly
than a Swedish origin for "Agafia"'s mother since, as Javsic notes, the
name Christina appeared in the Swedish royal house only after Agatha's
daughter would have been named.
Descent from the Kiev—Haldensleben marriage would satisfy a thesis
(however ill-founded) of Agatha's Kievan descent, and the later claim
that in Russia the Ætheling married a lady of noble blood (since we
might expect that Haldensleben descendants would visit Kiev, or be
fostered there). It also accords with the identification of the
Ætheling's wife as an emperor's kinswoman, if we accept the filiation of
Bernard of Haldensleben's mother-in—law, one of Vladimir I's wives, as a
daughter (anonyma, b.ca. 961, married ca. 980, d. by 989) of Conrad I of
Swabia (d. 997) by Richlind, daughter of Liudolf of Swabia, Emperor Otto
I's son by the Anglo-Saxon Edith. Conrad I and Richlind were
grandparents of Gisela (d. 1043), wife (in her third marriage) of
Emperor Conrad II (d. 1039) and mother of Henry [p. 53] III (d. 1046).
If Agatha did descend from the Swabian pair through the
Kiev-Haldensleben marriage, she would have been Henry III's second
cousin once removed and could have been called his mæg [footnote: An
Anglo-Saxon word that signifies an indistinct but fairly remote degree of
kinship - i.e., a "kinsman" (distant cousin) rather than a near relative
such as a first cousin.], as in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle [footnote: I
freely acknowledge that not all these connections are unreservedly
accepted, but for Vladimir I's wife as a daughter of Conrad I of Swabia
and Otto I's granddaughter Richlind, see Armin Wolf, "Wer war Kuno 'von
[Ö]hningen'?", Deutsches Archiv f[ü]r Erforschung des Mittelalters, 36
(1980), 25-83. Kinship between the Ætheling and Agatha would have been
so remote as to avoid complications of consanguinity: Agatha (b.
1020/25), dau. of Cristinus and Oda (b. 1000/05?), dau. of Bernard of
Haldensleben and NF of Kiev (b. 980/85?), dau. of Vladimir I of Kiev and
NF (b. ca. 961), dau. of Conrad I of Swabia (d. 997) and Richlinde (b.
ca. 948), dau. of Lindolf of Saxony (930-957), s. of Otto the Great and
Edith (m. 929) dau. of Edward the Elder (d. 924) by [Æ]lflaed; Edward
the Elder, father by Eadgifu of Edmund the Elder (r. 940-46), f. of
Edgar (943-75), f. of Æthelred II (968-1016), f. of Edmund "Ironside"
(993-1016), f. of Edward the Ætheling (1016-1057), in. ca. 1043 Agatha
(b. 1020/25?)].
This theory - it is no more than that - offers an hypothetical
individual who meets the criteria of kinship with the Kievan house and
an emperor. Of course, while this Agatha would be an emperor's cousin,
she would not be his brother's daughter. And she would be only a distant
cousin to Anastasia of Kiev. We might, however, suppose that Agatha and
Edward perhaps went from Kiev to Hungary with Anastasia in 1046, or
followed her there at a later date. Still, it must be kept in mind that
the sources attaching the Ætheling's wife to the Kievan house are of
such late date that we cannot accept them without serious reservations.
I end by restating that I advance neither of the above theories as
magisterial - only to show that the door is not yet firmly closed."
Thank you for showing us the article, Peter.

taf
2021-04-23 01:57:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
In his article about Agatha, wife of Eadeward the Exile, John Carmi Parsons
proposed two additional theories, one is the Cristinus Hypothesis.
This wasn't so much a hypothesis that argued 'this is the solution' as it was a demonstration of concept to indicate that the small number of ways that thus far had been proposed to harmonize mutually-incompatible sources hadn't come close to exhausting the possibilities.
Post by ***@gmail.com
The other that was only very briefly discussed is that Eadeward married twice.
If you are trying to use the Anglo-Saxon spelling, that would be Eadweard.
Post by ***@gmail.com
What do you think of that possibility? I am asking as I don't think it has been
discussed here before.
Possible? yes, of course. Unless one has an extremely detailed timeline, it is almost always possible for there to have been another marriage. However, given how far removed, both in time and geography, our surviving sources are, I don't find this any better a way of squaring the circle than the one-marriage options. What it comes down to is this: do we have enough faith in the accuracy of the sources to prefer a two-spouse version over a single-spouse one, or are we just multiplying entities as a way to rationalize the conflicting primary record, in which case we might as well go all the way and say he married a different wife for each conflicting source.

taf
Peter Stewart
2021-04-23 03:04:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by ***@gmail.com
In his article about Agatha, wife of Eadeward the Exile, John Carmi Parsons
proposed two additional theories, one is the Cristinus Hypothesis.
This wasn't so much a hypothesis that argued 'this is the solution' as it was a demonstration of concept to indicate that the small number of ways that thus far had been proposed to harmonize mutually-incompatible sources hadn't come close to exhausting the possibilities.
One point made in the extract I posted earlier that I disagree with is
this: "Cristinus' name could explain that of Agatha's daughter Christina
more plausibly than a Swedish origin for "Agafia"'s mother since, as
Javsic notes, the name Christina appeared in the Swedish royal house
only after Agatha's daughter would have been named."

First, an interest in the name Agatha could just as well have been
evidenced first in a distaff collateral before appearing in the agnatic
family from which the mother originated.

Secondly, the gender-crossing transfer of a name from - for instance - a
Cristinus to a granddaughter Christina is rare, not a practice customary
enough in Germany at the time to justify putting it forward as an
argument in this context.

Peter Stewart
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