Discussion:
C.P. Addition: Isolde le Rous, wife of Walter de Balun and Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley
(too old to reply)
Douglas Richardson
2017-12-17 10:15:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Newsgroup ~

Isolde (died 1338), wife successively of Sir Walter de Balun (died 1287) and Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley (died 1325) is claimed in many secondary sources to have been a member of Mortimer family. Two such sources which make the Mortimer claim include Complete Peerage 1 (1910): 347–348 (sub Audley) and James Horace Round, Studies in Peerage and Family History (1901): 206–209. While it is true that Isolde and her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire for the term of their lives by grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer, such a grant does not necessarily mean, suggest, or imply that Isolde was a Mortimer. Beyond the numerous claims in print that Isolde was a Mortimer, I know of no contemporary evidence which supports this allegation.

What evidence we do have includes a contemporary inquisition dated 1326, which indicates that the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire was settled on Sir Walter de Balun and Isolde his wife for life, and the heirs of her body. Following Sir Walter de Balun's death, Isolde and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, were afterwards seised of this manor. A pertinent part of the 1326 inquisition is copied below:

"Gloucestershire. — The Jurors find that Walter de Balun and Isolda his wife, by proceeding in the King's Court at Gloucester, had settled the Manor of Eastington on himself for life, and upon Isolda his wife and the heirs of her body. That by the operation of such settlement they had seisin of this Manor during the life of the said Walter, and then Isolda had seisin thereof as his widow, and that Isolda and Hugh d'Audley were also seised thereof, until the fifteenth of the present King, when the Manor passed into the King's hands as forfeited by the treason of the said Hugh d'Audley, and still continues in such custody. That the Manor was held of the heirs of Nicholas de Merley by half a Knights-fee, and was of the annual value of £20 15s." END OF QUOTE.

Reference: Duncumbe, Collections Towards the History and Antiquities of the County of Hereford 3 (1882): 7, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=0zxAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA7

The above record proves that Isolde had the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire settled on her and her heirs before the death of her first husband, Sir Walter de Balun. As such, in her 1st widowhood, she would have held claim to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right, not by right of dower.

In recent time, I have located a Common Pleas record dated 1289 which proves that Isolde was the daughter of Sir Roger le Rous [died 1294], of Harescombe and Duntisbourne, Gloucestershire, Sheriff of Gloucestershire, 1278–79, Sheriff of Herefordshire, 1293–94, Knight of the Shire for Gloucestershire, 1283, Knight of the Shire for Herefordshire, 1290, itinerant judge, by his wife, Eleanor de Avenbury.

Below is an abstract of this lawsuit:

In 1289 Isolde daughter of Roger le Rus sued Reynold de Balun in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire, which she claimed as her right. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 650f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/aCP40no78fronts/IMG_0650.htm).

The plaintiff above is Isolde "daughter of Roger le Rus" who can only be Isolde, widow of Sir Walter de Balun, who then held the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right. The defendant was Sir Walter de Balun's nephew and heir, Reynold de Balun. Isolde was presumably seeking a release from her late husband's nephew to any claim he might have to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire. A similar lawsuit was lodged against Reginald de Balun regarding Isolde's dower rights in Much Marcle, Herefordshire. See Year Books of Edward I: Years XX & XXI 1 (Rolls Ser. 31a) (1866): 128–129, 142-146, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA128

https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA142

The second item commencing on page 142 states that Walter de Balun and his wife, Isolde, were enfeoffed with the manor of Much Marcle, Herefordshire by Roger le Rous (Isolde's father).

For interest's sake, below is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Isolde le Rous and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley:

Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Charles Barnes, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, St. Leger Codd, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Robert Peyton, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.

If you descend from Isolde le Rous, I'd appreciate it greatly if you would post your line of descent(s) from this lady here on the newsgroup.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
2017-12-17 13:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Thank you for this, Douglas.

In "Haresfield: Manors and Church" by J. Melland Hall, Transactions of
the Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society for 1894-95,
volume XIX, page 279, the Rev. Hall describes Maud of Avenbury, second
wife of Humphrey de Bohun who died in 1275, as "a member of a family
connected with that of Le Rus, or Rous, lords of Harescombe and
Alansmore."

A later volume of the abovenamed Transactions, volume 41 part 2, 1919,
contains an unattributed "Proceedings at the Autumnal Meeting, at
Cirencester," in which the father of Eleanor de Avenbury, wife of Roger
le Rous, is given as Henry de Avenbury of Herefordshire, died 1250.

Do you or anyone else reading this have any clue as to how how Eleanor
and Maud might have been related, and what evidence exists for the
father of Eleanor being this Henry?

--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
http://nielsenhayden.com
http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng/
Jordan Vandenberg
2017-12-17 15:33:53 UTC
Permalink
Patrick,

The only thing I can find that might give another clue about the Avenbury's is in this feet of fines regarding 1 messuage and 2 carucates of land in Hagurnel Mundefeld. It seems to show that there is a connection between Eleanor de Avenbury and a Roger de Avenbury.


CP 25/1/81/18, number 46.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Herefordshire.
Place: Westminster.

Date: Two weeks from St John the Baptist, 9 Edward I [8 July 1281].

Parties: Roger Le Rus and Eleanor, his wife, querents, by Reynold le Chapeler, put in the place of Roger, and Roger de Auenbur', impedient, by William le Cris, put in his place.

Property: 1 messuage and 2 carucates of land in Hagurnel Mundefeld'.
Action: Plea.

Agreement: Roger de Auenebur' has acknowledged the tenement to be the right of Roger le Rus. For this, Roger le Rus and Eleanor have granted to Roger de Auenebur' the tenement, to hold to Roger de Auenbur', of Roger le Rus and Eleanor and the heirs of Roger le Rus for the life of Roger de Auenebur', rendering yearly 8 pence at the feast of St Michael, and doing to the chief lords all other services. And after the decease of Roger de Auenebur' the tenement shall revert to Roger le Rus and Eleanor and the heirs of Roger le Rus, quit of the heirs of Roger de Auenebur', to hold of the chief lords for ever.
Warranty: Warranty by Roger le Rus and Eleanor and the heirs of Roger le Rus.

Persons: Roger Le Rous, Eleanor Le Rous, Reynold le Chapler, Roger de Avenbury, William le Cris

Places: Munderfield (in Avenbury and Bromyard)

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_81_18.shtml

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_81_17-27/IMG_0111.htm


Is there research to date that establishes any of the ancestry of Sir Roger le Rous and Eleanor de Avenbury, the parents of Isolde de Rous?

Regards,
Jordan Vandenberg.


On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 8:37:12 AM UTC-5, Patrick Nielsen Hayden wrote:
> Thank you for this, Douglas.
>
> In "Haresfield: Manors and Church" by J. Melland Hall, Transactions of
> the Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society for 1894-95,
> volume XIX, page 279, the Rev. Hall describes Maud of Avenbury, second
> wife of Humphrey de Bohun who died in 1275, as "a member of a family
> connected with that of Le Rus, or Rous, lords of Harescombe and
> Alansmore."
>
> A later volume of the abovenamed Transactions, volume 41 part 2, 1919,
> contains an unattributed "Proceedings at the Autumnal Meeting, at
> Cirencester," in which the father of Eleanor de Avenbury, wife of Roger
> le Rous, is given as Henry de Avenbury of Herefordshire, died 1250.
>
> Do you or anyone else reading this have any clue as to how how Eleanor
> and Maud might have been related, and what evidence exists for the
> father of Eleanor being this Henry?
>
> --
> Patrick Nielsen Hayden
> http://nielsenhayden.com
> http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng/
Jordan Vandenberg
2017-12-17 14:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Douglas,

Thanks for this post on Isolde le Rous. You didn't list him on your list of of NWI ancestors she is ancestor to, but I believe Isolde le Rous and her husband Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley are also ancestors of NWI Joseph Bolles.

The line that I have for this connection is:

Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley = Isolde le Rous
V
Alice de Audley = Ralph de Greystoke, 1st Baron Greystoke
V
William de Greystoke, 2nd Lord Greystoke = Joan FitzHenry
V
Ralph Greystoke, 3rd Lord Greystoke = Katherine de Clifford
V
Maud de Greystoke = Eudes de Welles
V
Lionel Welles K.G., 6th Lord Welles = Joan Waterton
V
Sir Thomas Dymoke, of Scrivelsby = Margaret Welles
V
Sir Lionel Dymoke = Joan Griffith
V
Anne Dymoke = John Goodrick, of Kirby
V
Lionel (Lyon) Goodrick, Esq. of East Kirby = Winifred Sapcote
V
Anne Goodrick = Benjamin Bolles, of Osberton
V
Thomas Bolles, of Osberton = Elizabeth Perkins
V
Joseph Bolles

Thanks again for the post and the identification of the parents of Isolde le Rous.

Jordan Vandenberg.



On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 5:15:10 AM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Isolde (died 1338), wife successively of Sir Walter de Balun (died 1287) and Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley (died 1325) is claimed in many secondary sources to have been a member of Mortimer family. Two such sources which make the Mortimer claim include Complete Peerage 1 (1910): 347–348 (sub Audley) and James Horace Round, Studies in Peerage and Family History (1901): 206–209. While it is true that Isolde and her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire for the term of their lives by grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer, such a grant does not necessarily mean, suggest, or imply that Isolde was a Mortimer. Beyond the numerous claims in print that Isolde was a Mortimer, I know of no contemporary evidence which supports this allegation.
>
> What evidence we do have includes a contemporary inquisition dated 1326, which indicates that the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire was settled on Sir Walter de Balun and Isolde his wife for life, and the heirs of her body. Following Sir Walter de Balun's death, Isolde and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, were afterwards seised of this manor. A pertinent part of the 1326 inquisition is copied below:
>
> "Gloucestershire. — The Jurors find that Walter de Balun and Isolda his wife, by proceeding in the King's Court at Gloucester, had settled the Manor of Eastington on himself for life, and upon Isolda his wife and the heirs of her body. That by the operation of such settlement they had seisin of this Manor during the life of the said Walter, and then Isolda had seisin thereof as his widow, and that Isolda and Hugh d'Audley were also seised thereof, until the fifteenth of the present King, when the Manor passed into the King's hands as forfeited by the treason of the said Hugh d'Audley, and still continues in such custody. That the Manor was held of the heirs of Nicholas de Merley by half a Knights-fee, and was of the annual value of £20 15s." END OF QUOTE.
>
> Reference: Duncumbe, Collections Towards the History and Antiquities of the County of Hereford 3 (1882): 7, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=0zxAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA7
>
> The above record proves that Isolde had the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire settled on her and her heirs before the death of her first husband, Sir Walter de Balun. As such, in her 1st widowhood, she would have held claim to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right, not by right of dower.
>
> In recent time, I have located a Common Pleas record dated 1289 which proves that Isolde was the daughter of Sir Roger le Rous [died 1294], of Harescombe and Duntisbourne, Gloucestershire, Sheriff of Gloucestershire, 1278–79, Sheriff of Herefordshire, 1293–94, Knight of the Shire for Gloucestershire, 1283, Knight of the Shire for Herefordshire, 1290, itinerant judge, by his wife, Eleanor de Avenbury.
>
> Below is an abstract of this lawsuit:
>
> In 1289 Isolde daughter of Roger le Rus sued Reynold de Balun in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire, which she claimed as her right. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 650f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/aCP40no78fronts/IMG_0650.htm).
>
> The plaintiff above is Isolde "daughter of Roger le Rus" who can only be Isolde, widow of Sir Walter de Balun, who then held the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right. The defendant was Sir Walter de Balun's nephew and heir, Reynold de Balun. Isolde was presumably seeking a release from her late husband's nephew to any claim he might have to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire. A similar lawsuit was lodged against Reginald de Balun regarding Isolde's dower rights in Much Marcle, Herefordshire. See Year Books of Edward I: Years XX & XXI 1 (Rolls Ser. 31a) (1866): 128–129, 142-146, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA128
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA142
>
> The second item commencing on page 142 states that Walter de Balun and his wife, Isolde, were enfeoffed with the manor of Much Marcle, Herefordshire by Roger le Rous (Isolde's father).
>
> For interest's sake, below is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Isolde le Rous and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley:
>
> Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Charles Barnes, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, St. Leger Codd, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Robert Peyton, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.
>
> If you descend from Isolde le Rous, I'd appreciate it greatly if you would post your line of descent(s) from this lady here on the newsgroup.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Paulo Canedo
2017-12-17 15:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Em domingo, 17 de dezembro de 2017 14:12:59 UTC, Jordan Vandenberg escreveu:
> Douglas,
>
> Thanks for this post on Isolde le Rous. You didn't list him on your list of of NWI ancestors she is ancestor to, but I believe Isolde le Rous and her husband Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley are also ancestors of NWI Joseph Bolles.
>
> The line that I have for this connection is:
>
> Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley = Isolde le Rous
> V
> Alice de Audley = Ralph de Greystoke, 1st Baron Greystoke
> V
> William de Greystoke, 2nd Lord Greystoke = Joan FitzHenry
> V
> Ralph Greystoke, 3rd Lord Greystoke = Katherine de Clifford
> V
> Maud de Greystoke = Eudes de Welles
> V
> Lionel Welles K.G., 6th Lord Welles = Joan Waterton
> V
> Sir Thomas Dymoke, of Scrivelsby = Margaret Welles
> V
> Sir Lionel Dymoke = Joan Griffith
> V
> Anne Dymoke = John Goodrick, of Kirby
> V
> Lionel (Lyon) Goodrick, Esq. of East Kirby = Winifred Sapcote
> V
> Anne Goodrick = Benjamin Bolles, of Osberton
> V
> Thomas Bolles, of Osberton = Elizabeth Perkins
> V
> Joseph Bolles
>
> Thanks again for the post and the identification of the parents of Isolde le Rous.
>
> Jordan Vandenberg.
>
>
>
> On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 5:15:10 AM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> > Dear Newsgroup ~
> >
> > Isolde (died 1338), wife successively of Sir Walter de Balun (died 1287) and Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley (died 1325) is claimed in many secondary sources to have been a member of Mortimer family. Two such sources which make the Mortimer claim include Complete Peerage 1 (1910): 347–348 (sub Audley) and James Horace Round, Studies in Peerage and Family History (1901): 206–209. While it is true that Isolde and her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire for the term of their lives by grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer, such a grant does not necessarily mean, suggest, or imply that Isolde was a Mortimer. Beyond the numerous claims in print that Isolde was a Mortimer, I know of no contemporary evidence which supports this allegation.
> >
> > What evidence we do have includes a contemporary inquisition dated 1326, which indicates that the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire was settled on Sir Walter de Balun and Isolde his wife for life, and the heirs of her body. Following Sir Walter de Balun's death, Isolde and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, were afterwards seised of this manor. A pertinent part of the 1326 inquisition is copied below:
> >
> > "Gloucestershire. — The Jurors find that Walter de Balun and Isolda his wife, by proceeding in the King's Court at Gloucester, had settled the Manor of Eastington on himself for life, and upon Isolda his wife and the heirs of her body. That by the operation of such settlement they had seisin of this Manor during the life of the said Walter, and then Isolda had seisin thereof as his widow, and that Isolda and Hugh d'Audley were also seised thereof, until the fifteenth of the present King, when the Manor passed into the King's hands as forfeited by the treason of the said Hugh d'Audley, and still continues in such custody. That the Manor was held of the heirs of Nicholas de Merley by half a Knights-fee, and was of the annual value of £20 15s." END OF QUOTE.
> >
> > Reference: Duncumbe, Collections Towards the History and Antiquities of the County of Hereford 3 (1882): 7, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
> >
> > https://books.google.com/books?id=0zxAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA7
> >
> > The above record proves that Isolde had the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire settled on her and her heirs before the death of her first husband, Sir Walter de Balun. As such, in her 1st widowhood, she would have held claim to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right, not by right of dower.
> >
> > In recent time, I have located a Common Pleas record dated 1289 which proves that Isolde was the daughter of Sir Roger le Rous [died 1294], of Harescombe and Duntisbourne, Gloucestershire, Sheriff of Gloucestershire, 1278–79, Sheriff of Herefordshire, 1293–94, Knight of the Shire for Gloucestershire, 1283, Knight of the Shire for Herefordshire, 1290, itinerant judge, by his wife, Eleanor de Avenbury.
> >
> > Below is an abstract of this lawsuit:
> >
> > In 1289 Isolde daughter of Roger le Rus sued Reynold de Balun in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire, which she claimed as her right. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 650f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/aCP40no78fronts/IMG_0650.htm).
> >
> > The plaintiff above is Isolde "daughter of Roger le Rus" who can only be Isolde, widow of Sir Walter de Balun, who then held the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right. The defendant was Sir Walter de Balun's nephew and heir, Reynold de Balun. Isolde was presumably seeking a release from her late husband's nephew to any claim he might have to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire. A similar lawsuit was lodged against Reginald de Balun regarding Isolde's dower rights in Much Marcle, Herefordshire. See Year Books of Edward I: Years XX & XXI 1 (Rolls Ser. 31a) (1866): 128–129, 142-146, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
> >
> > https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA128
> >
> > https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA142
> >
> > The second item commencing on page 142 states that Walter de Balun and his wife, Isolde, were enfeoffed with the manor of Much Marcle, Herefordshire by Roger le Rous (Isolde's father).
> >
> > For interest's sake, below is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Isolde le Rous and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley:
> >
> > Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Charles Barnes, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, St. Leger Codd, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Robert Peyton, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.
> >
> > If you descend from Isolde le Rous, I'd appreciate it greatly if you would post your line of descent(s) from this lady here on the newsgroup.
> >
> > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Dear Jordan, are you a descendant of that immigrant?
Steve Riggan
2017-12-17 19:53:28 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for this information, Douglas. Like Jordan, I also descend from the Audley/Rous line via the Dymokes.

Sir Lionel Dymoke = Joan Griffith
V
Alice Dymoke = Sir William Skipwith of South Ormsby, Lincolnshire
V
Henry Skipwith, Esq = Jane Hall
V
Sir William Skipwith = Margaret Cave (niece of William Cecil, 1st Lord Burghley)
V
Sir Henry Skipwith, 1st Bt. = Amy Kempe
V
Diana Skipwith = Maj. Edward Dale (both immigrants to Virginia)
V
Elizabeth Dale (youngest daughter) = William Rogers



Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 17, 2017, at 6:15 AM, Jordan Vandenberg <***@hotmail.com<mailto:***@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Douglas,

Thanks for this post on Isolde le Rous. You didn't list him on your list of of NWI ancestors she is ancestor to, but I believe Isolde le Rous and her husband Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley are also ancestors of NWI Joseph Bolles.

The line that I have for this connection is:

Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley = Isolde le Rous
V
Alice de Audley = Ralph de Greystoke, 1st Baron Greystoke
V
William de Greystoke, 2nd Lord Greystoke = Joan FitzHenry
V
Ralph Greystoke, 3rd Lord Greystoke = Katherine de Clifford
V
Maud de Greystoke = Eudes de Welles
V
Lionel Welles K.G., 6th Lord Welles = Joan Waterton
V
Sir Thomas Dymoke, of Scrivelsby = Margaret Welles
V
Sir Lionel Dymoke = Joan Griffith
V
Anne Dymoke = John Goodrick, of Kirby
V
Lionel (Lyon) Goodrick, Esq. of East Kirby = Winifred Sapcote
V
Anne Goodrick = Benjamin Bolles, of Osberton
V
Thomas Bolles, of Osberton = Elizabeth Perkins
V
Joseph Bolles

Thanks again for the post and the identification of the parents of Isolde le Rous.

Jordan Vandenberg.



On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 5:15:10 AM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

Isolde (died 1338), wife successively of Sir Walter de Balun (died 1287) and Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley (died 1325) is claimed in many secondary sources to have been a member of Mortimer family. Two such sources which make the Mortimer claim include Complete Peerage 1 (1910): 347–348 (sub Audley) and James Horace Round, Studies in Peerage and Family History (1901): 206–209. While it is true that Isolde and her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire for the term of their lives by grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer, such a grant does not necessarily mean, suggest, or imply that Isolde was a Mortimer. Beyond the numerous claims in print that Isolde was a Mortimer, I know of no contemporary evidence which supports this allegation.

What evidence we do have includes a contemporary inquisition dated 1326, which indicates that the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire was settled on Sir Walter de Balun and Isolde his wife for life, and the heirs of her body. Following Sir Walter de Balun's death, Isolde and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, were afterwards seised of this manor. A pertinent part of the 1326 inquisition is copied below:

"Gloucestershire. — The Jurors find that Walter de Balun and Isolda his wife, by proceeding in the King's Court at Gloucester, had settled the Manor of Eastington on himself for life, and upon Isolda his wife and the heirs of her body. That by the operation of such settlement they had seisin of this Manor during the life of the said Walter, and then Isolda had seisin thereof as his widow, and that Isolda and Hugh d'Audley were also seised thereof, until the fifteenth of the present King, when the Manor passed into the King's hands as forfeited by the treason of the said Hugh d'Audley, and still continues in such custody. That the Manor was held of the heirs of Nicholas de Merley by half a Knights-fee, and was of the annual value of £20 15s." END OF QUOTE.

Reference: Duncumbe, Collections Towards the History and Antiquities of the County of Hereford 3 (1882): 7, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=0zxAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA7

The above record proves that Isolde had the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire settled on her and her heirs before the death of her first husband, Sir Walter de Balun. As such, in her 1st widowhood, she would have held claim to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right, not by right of dower.

In recent time, I have located a Common Pleas record dated 1289 which proves that Isolde was the daughter of Sir Roger le Rous [died 1294], of Harescombe and Duntisbourne, Gloucestershire, Sheriff of Gloucestershire, 1278–79, Sheriff of Herefordshire, 1293–94, Knight of the Shire for Gloucestershire, 1283, Knight of the Shire for Herefordshire, 1290, itinerant judge, by his wife, Eleanor de Avenbury.

Below is an abstract of this lawsuit:

In 1289 Isolde daughter of Roger le Rus sued Reynold de Balun in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire, which she claimed as her right. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 650f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/aCP40no78fronts/IMG_0650.htm).

The plaintiff above is Isolde "daughter of Roger le Rus" who can only be Isolde, widow of Sir Walter de Balun, who then held the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right. The defendant was Sir Walter de Balun's nephew and heir, Reynold de Balun. Isolde was presumably seeking a release from her late husband's nephew to any claim he might have to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire. A similar lawsuit was lodged against Reginald de Balun regarding Isolde's dower rights in Much Marcle, Herefordshire. See Year Books of Edward I: Years XX & XXI 1 (Rolls Ser. 31a) (1866): 128–129, 142-146, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA128

https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA142

The second item commencing on page 142 states that Walter de Balun and his wife, Isolde, were enfeoffed with the manor of Much Marcle, Herefordshire by Roger le Rous (Isolde's father).

For interest's sake, below is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Isolde le Rous and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley:

Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Charles Barnes, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, St. Leger Codd, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Robert Peyton, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.

If you descend from Isolde le Rous, I'd appreciate it greatly if you would post your line of descent(s) from this lady here on the newsgroup.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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Steve Riggan
2017-12-17 19:56:41 UTC
Permalink
On the Skipwith post I forgot to sign off. Apologies.

Steve Riggan

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 17, 2017, at 11:53 AM, Steve Riggan <***@hotmail.com<mailto:***@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Thanks for this information, Douglas. Like Jordan, I also descend from the Audley/Rous line via the Dymokes.

Sir Lionel Dymoke = Joan Griffith
V
Alice Dymoke = Sir William Skipwith of South Ormsby, Lincolnshire
V
Henry Skipwith, Esq = Jane Hall
V
Sir William Skipwith = Margaret Cave (niece of William Cecil, 1st Lord Burghley)
V
Sir Henry Skipwith, 1st Bt. = Amy Kempe
V
Diana Skipwith = Maj. Edward Dale (both immigrants to Virginia)
V
Elizabeth Dale (youngest daughter) = William Rogers



Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 17, 2017, at 6:15 AM, Jordan Vandenberg <***@hotmail.com<mailto:***@hotmail.com><mailto:***@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Douglas,

Thanks for this post on Isolde le Rous. You didn't list him on your list of of NWI ancestors she is ancestor to, but I believe Isolde le Rous and her husband Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley are also ancestors of NWI Joseph Bolles.

The line that I have for this connection is:

Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley = Isolde le Rous
V
Alice de Audley = Ralph de Greystoke, 1st Baron Greystoke
V
William de Greystoke, 2nd Lord Greystoke = Joan FitzHenry
V
Ralph Greystoke, 3rd Lord Greystoke = Katherine de Clifford
V
Maud de Greystoke = Eudes de Welles
V
Lionel Welles K.G., 6th Lord Welles = Joan Waterton
V
Sir Thomas Dymoke, of Scrivelsby = Margaret Welles
V
Sir Lionel Dymoke = Joan Griffith
V
Anne Dymoke = John Goodrick, of Kirby
V
Lionel (Lyon) Goodrick, Esq. of East Kirby = Winifred Sapcote
V
Anne Goodrick = Benjamin Bolles, of Osberton
V
Thomas Bolles, of Osberton = Elizabeth Perkins
V
Joseph Bolles

Thanks again for the post and the identification of the parents of Isolde le Rous.

Jordan Vandenberg.



On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 5:15:10 AM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

Isolde (died 1338), wife successively of Sir Walter de Balun (died 1287) and Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley (died 1325) is claimed in many secondary sources to have been a member of Mortimer family. Two such sources which make the Mortimer claim include Complete Peerage 1 (1910): 347–348 (sub Audley) and James Horace Round, Studies in Peerage and Family History (1901): 206–209. While it is true that Isolde and her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire for the term of their lives by grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer, such a grant does not necessarily mean, suggest, or imply that Isolde was a Mortimer. Beyond the numerous claims in print that Isolde was a Mortimer, I know of no contemporary evidence which supports this allegation.

What evidence we do have includes a contemporary inquisition dated 1326, which indicates that the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire was settled on Sir Walter de Balun and Isolde his wife for life, and the heirs of her body. Following Sir Walter de Balun's death, Isolde and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, were afterwards seised of this manor. A pertinent part of the 1326 inquisition is copied below:

"Gloucestershire. — The Jurors find that Walter de Balun and Isolda his wife, by proceeding in the King's Court at Gloucester, had settled the Manor of Eastington on himself for life, and upon Isolda his wife and the heirs of her body. That by the operation of such settlement they had seisin of this Manor during the life of the said Walter, and then Isolda had seisin thereof as his widow, and that Isolda and Hugh d'Audley were also seised thereof, until the fifteenth of the present King, when the Manor passed into the King's hands as forfeited by the treason of the said Hugh d'Audley, and still continues in such custody. That the Manor was held of the heirs of Nicholas de Merley by half a Knights-fee, and was of the annual value of £20 15s." END OF QUOTE.

Reference: Duncumbe, Collections Towards the History and Antiquities of the County of Hereford 3 (1882): 7, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=0zxAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA7

The above record proves that Isolde had the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire settled on her and her heirs before the death of her first husband, Sir Walter de Balun. As such, in her 1st widowhood, she would have held claim to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right, not by right of dower.

In recent time, I have located a Common Pleas record dated 1289 which proves that Isolde was the daughter of Sir Roger le Rous [died 1294], of Harescombe and Duntisbourne, Gloucestershire, Sheriff of Gloucestershire, 1278–79, Sheriff of Herefordshire, 1293–94, Knight of the Shire for Gloucestershire, 1283, Knight of the Shire for Herefordshire, 1290, itinerant judge, by his wife, Eleanor de Avenbury.

Below is an abstract of this lawsuit:

In 1289 Isolde daughter of Roger le Rus sued Reynold de Balun in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire, which she claimed as her right. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 650f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/aCP40no78fronts/IMG_0650.htm).

The plaintiff above is Isolde "daughter of Roger le Rus" who can only be Isolde, widow of Sir Walter de Balun, who then held the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right. The defendant was Sir Walter de Balun's nephew and heir, Reynold de Balun. Isolde was presumably seeking a release from her late husband's nephew to any claim he might have to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire. A similar lawsuit was lodged against Reginald de Balun regarding Isolde's dower rights in Much Marcle, Herefordshire. See Year Books of Edward I: Years XX & XXI 1 (Rolls Ser. 31a) (1866): 128–129, 142-146, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA128

https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA142

The second item commencing on page 142 states that Walter de Balun and his wife, Isolde, were enfeoffed with the manor of Much Marcle, Herefordshire by Roger le Rous (Isolde's father).

For interest's sake, below is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Isolde le Rous and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley:

Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Charles Barnes, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, St. Leger Codd, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Robert Peyton, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.

If you descend from Isolde le Rous, I'd appreciate it greatly if you would post your line of descent(s) from this lady here on the newsgroup.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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Douglas Richardson
2017-12-18 00:20:21 UTC
Permalink
Dear Jordan ~

Thank you for your posts. Much appreciated.

You're quite correct. The immigrant Joseph Bolles is in fact a descendant of Isolde le Rous and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley. Thank you for posting your line of descent from her.

For interest's sake, below is an updated and expanded list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Isolde le Rous and Sir Hugh de Audley:

Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Charles Barnes, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Stephen Bull, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, St. Leger Codd, William Crymes, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, John West, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 7:12:59 AM UTC-7, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
> Douglas,
>
> Thanks for this post on Isolde le Rous. You didn't list him on your list of of NWI ancestors she is ancestor to, but I believe Isolde le Rous and her husband Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley are also ancestors of NWI Joseph Bolles.
Paulo Canedo
2017-12-18 00:43:38 UTC
Permalink
Dear Douglas, very good find, thanks.
That also disproves Ravilious's theory, of which I myself was a supporter, that Isolda was a de Bohun. We must look elsewhere for the explanation of Isolda's descendants using the swan badge.
John Watson
2017-12-17 17:35:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sunday, 17 December 2017 10:15:10 UTC, Douglas Richardson wrote:

>
> The above record proves that Isolde had the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire settled on her and her heirs before the death of her first husband, Sir Walter de Balun. As such, in her 1st widowhood, she would have held claim to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right, not by right of dower.

Dear Douglas,

Roger le Rous settled the manor of Eastington on Walter de Balun and Isolde in June 1287:

8 June 1287, 15 Edward I, Gloucester. One week from Trinity. Walter de Balun and Isolda his wife, querents, by Walter de la More in Walter de Balun's place, Roger le Rouse (Rous), deforciant. The manor of Eastington (Esteneston). (Covenant.) Right of Roger, as in demesnes, homages, advowsons of churches, rents, services of free men, villeinages with the villeins holding them and their families, wards, reliefs, escheats, woods, meadows, pastures, waters, ponds, mills, and all else. For this, grant to Walter and Isolda. To hold to them and Isolda's heirs.
Feet of Fines: CP 25/1/75/33, number 100.
C. R. Elrington, ed., Abstracts of Feet of Fines relating to Gloucestershire, 1199-1299, Gloucestershire Record Series, 16 (2003), 183, no. 890.

Best regards,

John
John Watson
2017-12-17 19:02:58 UTC
Permalink
On Sunday, 17 December 2017 17:35:27 UTC, John Watson wrote:
> On Sunday, 17 December 2017 10:15:10 UTC, Douglas Richardson wrote:
>
> >
> > The above record proves that Isolde had the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire settled on her and her heirs before the death of her first husband, Sir Walter de Balun. As such, in her 1st widowhood, she would have held claim to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right, not by right of dower.
>
> Dear Douglas,
>
> Roger le Rous settled the manor of Eastington on Walter de Balun and Isolde in June 1287:
>
> 8 June 1287, 15 Edward I, Gloucester. One week from Trinity. Walter de Balun and Isolda his wife, querents, by Walter de la More in Walter de Balun's place, Roger le Rouse (Rous), deforciant. The manor of Eastington (Esteneston). (Covenant.) Right of Roger, as in demesnes, homages, advowsons of churches, rents, services of free men, villeinages with the villeins holding them and their families, wards, reliefs, escheats, woods, meadows, pastures, waters, ponds, mills, and all else. For this, grant to Walter and Isolda. To hold to them and Isolda's heirs.
> Feet of Fines: CP 25/1/75/33, number 100.
> C. R. Elrington, ed., Abstracts of Feet of Fines relating to Gloucestershire, 1199-1299, Gloucestershire Record Series, 16 (2003), 183, no. 890.
>
> Best regards,
>
> John

Douglas,

On a genealogical note. Reynold (Reginald) de Balun was Walter's brother, not his nephew.

28 November 1288, Enrolment of deed of Reginald de Balun, brother and heir of Sir Walter de Balun, witnessing that whereas he granted to Robert, bishop of Bath and Wells, and to Philip Burnell, his nephew, the manor of Great Chevrel, with the advowson of the church of the same, for their lives, he now grants to them the said manor and advowson: to hold to them and their heirs of the chief lords of the fee, rendering to Reginald a rose at Midsummer. As they have seisin thereof by the first deed for life, he releases the manor and advowson to them for ever. Witnesses: Sir Thomas de Rus, Alexander de Cheverel, Peter de la Mare, knights; Peter de Lavynton, Simon le Free, John de Wodebrigg., Richard le Heir. Dated on Thursday the feast of St. Katherine, 17 Edward.
Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward I, vol. 3: 1288-1296 (1904), 30.

Regards,

John
Douglas Richardson
2017-12-17 23:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Dear John ~

Thank you for your posts. Much appreciated.

I believe you are correct that Reynold de Balun was Walter's brother. I actually had Reynold de Balun as Walter's brother in my original draft.

However, the Year Book entry I provided in my post specifically states that Walter was Reynold's uncle. So I changed my post to reflect that evidence.

In this case, I trust the deed you've cited over the Year Book entry. I've known for some time that there are various irregularites in the Year Books. For example, Isolde, wife of Walter de Balun and Hugh de Audley, is inexpicably called "Jone" in the same Year Book entry. She is Isolde in all other contemporary records which I have seen of her, including the Common Pleas lawsuit which I found. How such errors crept into the Year Books, I can not say.

Sincerely, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 12:03:00 PM UTC-7, John Watson wrote:

< On a genealogical note. Reynold (Reginald) de Balun was Walter's brother, not
< his nephew.
Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)
2017-12-18 10:29:35 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson
Sent: 17 December 2017 23:49
Dear John ~
>>
>> Thank you for your posts. Much appreciated.
>>
>> I believe you are correct that Reynold de Balun was Walter's brother. I actually had Reynold de Balun as Walter's brother in my original draft.
>>
>> However, the Year Book entry I provided in my post specifically states that Walter was Reynold's uncle. So I changed my post to reflect that evidence.
>>
>> In this case, I trust the deed you've cited over the Year Book entry. I've known for some time that there are various irregularites in the Year Books. For example, Isolde, wife of Walter de Balun and Hugh de Audley, is inexpicably called "Jone" in the same Year Book entry. She is Isolde in all other contemporary records which I have seen of her, including the Common Pleas lawsuit which I found. How such errors crept into the Year Books, I can not say.
>>

-------------------------------
Year Books weren't official case reports, they were just manuscript collections of notes made by student lawyers for their own personal use while sitting in the courts listening and learning. They were principally interested in the legal issues raised, for which purpose the names of the individual parties to the suits were not really relevant. Frequently the names were not even recorded.

It can be an interesting exercise to try to identify the individuals and places mentioned in Year Book reports. Here is one I did a few years ago:

https://ipm-dev.cch.kcl.ac.uk/blog/ipms-and-the-year-books-radcliffe-v-dynelay-1424/

Medieval genealogists, with their detailed knowledge of the land-owning elite and their estates, must be specially qualified to solve these puzzles. Perhaps one day an inter-disciplinary project of legal historians and medieval genealogists should be set up to do this.

Matt Tompkins.
Douglas Richardson
2017-12-18 03:39:58 UTC
Permalink
Dear Patrick, Jordan, John, etc. ~

Below are two records taken from the online Discovery catalogue.

The first record is a grant dated 1290 witnessed by Isolde le Rous's father, Sir Roger le Rous [died 1294], who occurs here as lord of Allensmore, Herefordshire.

The second record below is a debt owed in 1310 to Lady Eleanor, widow of Roger le Rous.

Given there are so many people who descend from Isolde le Rous, I'd very much like to see more lines of descent from Isolde le Rous posted by newsgroup members.

Reviewing my ancestry, I see that I descend from Isolde le Rous' brother, John le Rous, through the New World immigrant, Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Edwards, of Connecticut. Also my children descend through their mother from Isolde's sister, Eleanor le Rous, wife of Herbert Fitz John, Knt. [died 1321].

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + +

1. Gift (1) William de la Calewe de Deuswelle (2) John Bitter Consideration: 5 marks...
This record is held by Herefordshire Archive and Records Centre
See contact details
Reference: AD2/II/91
Description:
Gift

(1) William de la Calewe de Deuswelle

(2) John Bitter

Consideration: 5 marks of silver

12. land and rents as purchased from William de Trompeton and his wife, in the fee of Wormeton. viz. 4d. p.a. for land which John de Lynne holds, 2d. p.a. for land which Thomas of Acornebury holds, and 4d. p.a. for land which Elyas le Winkar holds.

Paying lobol of silver p.a.

Warranty.

Witnesses: Sir Thomas Petit, Sir Roger le Rus, Lord of Allensmore (Mora Alani) Kns., William Butter, William Mangaunt, Hugh Helle, Stephen Tinctor: John ad fontem.

1 seal, black.

Date: N.D. c.1290
+ + + + + + + +

2. Reference: C 241/61/96
Description:

Debtor: Richard Bardulf, of Hereford.

Creditor: Lady Eleanor, who was the wife of Roger le Rous.

Amount: £22.

Before whom: William Goodknave; John Lightfoot, Clerk; at Hereford.

First term: 25/07/1308

Last term: 15/08/1308

Writ to: Sheriff of Herefords

Sent by: William Goodknave; John Lightfoot, Clerk; at Hereford.

Endorsement: Hereford'.

Date: 1308 Sep 21
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Language: Latin
Steve Riggan
2017-12-18 06:17:06 UTC
Permalink
Douglas, since you asked for our lines from Isolde le Rous, I forgot to post the others besides Diana Skipwith’s, so give you all three, including hers again. I descend from Diana Skipwith and Thomas Ligon through my mother while my father descended from William Farrar. Here are the lineages from Isolde le Rous:

Hugh de Audley, Baron Audley of Stratton Audley = Isolde le Rous
V
Hugh de Audley, Earl of Gloucester = Margaret de Clare (Edward I descent)
V
Margaret de Audley = Hugh de Stafford, 2nd Baron Stafford and 1st Earl of Stafford
V
Hugh de Stafford, 2nd Earl of Stafford = Philippa de Beauchamp
V
Catherine de Stafford = Michael de la Pole, 2nd Earl of Suffolk
V
Isabel de la Pole = Thomas Morley, 5th Baron Morley
V
Anne Morley = John Hastings, de jure 9th Lord Hastings (Edward I descent)
V
Elizabeth Hastings = Sir Robert Hildyard
V
Catherine Hildyard = William Girlington of Normanby
V
Isabel Girlington = Christopher Kelke of Barnetby-le-Wold, Lincolnshire (Edward III descent)
V
William Kelke = Thomasine Skerne
V
Cecily Kelke = John Farrar of Ewood and Brearley, Yorkshire
V
William Farrar (immigrant to VA) = Mrs. Cecily Jordan
V
William Kelke = Mary (Baugh?)
V
Thomas Farrar = Katherine Perrin
V
John Farrar = wife’s name unknown
V
John Farrar = Elizabeth Lyon
V
Jean Farrar = Abraham Moore
V
William Moore = Penelope Cobb
V
Jane Farrar Moore = Robert A. Smith
V
James Buchanan Smith = Georgiana S. W. Cavender
V
Robert A. Smith = Laura Nutt
V
Laura Mae Smith = Roy Riggan
V
James E. Riggan = Barbara A. Yancey (see her lines below)
V
Steve Riggan (me)



Elizabeth de Stafford (sister of Hugh, 2nd Earl of Stafford, above) = John de Ferrers, 4th Lord Ferrers of Chartley
V
Robert de Ferrers, 5th Lord Ferrers of Chartley = Margaret Despenser (Edward I descent)
V
Edmund de Ferrers, 6th Lord Ferrers of Chartley = Ellen Roche
V
Margaret de Ferrers = John Beauchamp, 1st Baron Beauchamp of Powick
V
Richard Beauchamp, 2nd Lord Beauchamp of Powick = Elizabeth Stafford
V
Anne Beauchamp = Sir Richard Lygon of Madresfield, Worcestershire
V
Sir Richard Lygon of Madresfield = Margaret Greville
V
William Lygon of Madresfield = Eleanor Dennis (Edward I descent)
V
Thomas Lygon = Frances Dennis (Edward I descent)
V
Thomas Lygon = Elizabeth Pratt
V
Col. Thomas Lygon/Ligon (immigrant to VA) = Mary Harris
V
Richard Ligon = Mary Worsham
V
Sarah Ligon = Richard Grills
V
John Grills = Philadelphia (last name unknown) (also ancestors of former soc.gen.med member Brice Clagett)
V
Elliott Grills = Mary Cox
V
William Dudley Grills = Huldah Julian
V
Huldah Cox Grills = William C. Pitts
V
Laura Alice Pitts = Elmer S. Webb (see line below)
V
Vernene Webb = Hobert A. Yancey
V
Barbara A. Yancey = James Riggan (see line above)
V
Steve Riggan



Alice de Audley (daughter of Sir Hugh de Audley and Isolde le Rous) = Ralph de Greystoke, 1st Baron Greystoke
V
William de Greystoke, 2nd Lord Greystoke = Joan FitzHenry
V
Ralph de Greystoke, 3rd Lord Greystoke = Catherine de Clifford
V
Maud de Clifford = Eudes de Welles (Edward I descent)
V
Lionel de Welles, 6th Lord Welles = Joan de Waterton
V
Margaret de Welles = Sir Philip Dymoke, 14th King’s Champion
V
Sir Lionel Dymoke = Joan Griffith
V
Alice Dymoke = Sir William Skipwith of South Ormsby, Lincolnshire (Edward I descent)
V
Henry Skipwith, Esq. = Jane Hall (Edward I descent)
V
Sir William Skipwith of Cotes, Leicestershire = Margaret Cave (niece of William Cecil, 1st Baron Burghley)
V
Sir Henry Skipwith, 1st Baronet of Prestwold, Leicestershire = Amy Kempe (Edward I descent)
V
Diana Skipwith (immigrant to VA) = Maj. Edward Dale
V
Elizabeth Dale = William Rogers
V
Hannah Rogers = Edward Blakemore
V
John Blakemore = Anne Tomlin
V
Elizabeth Blakemore = Elmore Douglass
V
Delia Douglass = Elias Brooks
V
Elizabeth Brooks = James C. Moore
V
Amanda Moore = William H. Rains
V
Sarah Elizabeth Rains = Enoch Webb
V
Elmer S. Webb = Laura Alice Pitts (see line above)
V
Vernene Webb = Hobert A. Yancey
V
Barbara A. Yancey = James E. Riggan (see first line above)
V
Steve Riggan


I hope this is helpful
Steve Riggan
2017-12-18 06:23:18 UTC
Permalink
I see I made a couple errors in my lines below. That’s the problem with doing these by memory!! William “Kelke” married to Mary Baugh in Virginia is supposed to be William Farrar. In the Dymoke line of the Skipwiths, I listed Margaret de Welles’ husband as Sir Philip Dymoke and it should be Sir Thomas Dymoke, 14th King’s Champion. My apologies if this has confused anyone familiar with these lines.

Steve Riggan

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 17, 2017, at 10:17 PM, Steve Riggan <***@hotmail.com<mailto:***@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Douglas, since you asked for our lines from Isolde le Rous, I forgot to post the others besides Diana Skipwith’s, so give you all three, including hers again. I descend from Diana Skipwith and Thomas Ligon through my mother while my father descended from William Farrar. Here are the lineages from Isolde le Rous:

Hugh de Audley, Baron Audley of Stratton Audley = Isolde le Rous
V
Hugh de Audley, Earl of Gloucester = Margaret de Clare (Edward I descent)
V
Margaret de Audley = Hugh de Stafford, 2nd Baron Stafford and 1st Earl of Stafford
V
Hugh de Stafford, 2nd Earl of Stafford = Philippa de Beauchamp
V
Catherine de Stafford = Michael de la Pole, 2nd Earl of Suffolk
V
Isabel de la Pole = Thomas Morley, 5th Baron Morley
V
Anne Morley = John Hastings, de jure 9th Lord Hastings (Edward I descent)
V
Elizabeth Hastings = Sir Robert Hildyard
V
Catherine Hildyard = William Girlington of Normanby
V
Isabel Girlington = Christopher Kelke of Barnetby-le-Wold, Lincolnshire (Edward III descent)
V
William Kelke = Thomasine Skerne
V
Cecily Kelke = John Farrar of Ewood and Brearley, Yorkshire
V
William Farrar (immigrant to VA) = Mrs. Cecily Jordan
V
William Kelke = Mary (Baugh?)
V
Thomas Farrar = Katherine Perrin
V
John Farrar = wife’s name unknown
V
John Farrar = Elizabeth Lyon
V
Jean Farrar = Abraham Moore
V
William Moore = Penelope Cobb
V
Jane Farrar Moore = Robert A. Smith
V
James Buchanan Smith = Georgiana S. W. Cavender
V
Robert A. Smith = Laura Nutt
V
Laura Mae Smith = Roy Riggan
V
James E. Riggan = Barbara A. Yancey (see her lines below)
V
Steve Riggan (me)



Elizabeth de Stafford (sister of Hugh, 2nd Earl of Stafford, above) = John de Ferrers, 4th Lord Ferrers of Chartley
V
Robert de Ferrers, 5th Lord Ferrers of Chartley = Margaret Despenser (Edward I descent)
V
Edmund de Ferrers, 6th Lord Ferrers of Chartley = Ellen Roche
V
Margaret de Ferrers = John Beauchamp, 1st Baron Beauchamp of Powick
V
Richard Beauchamp, 2nd Lord Beauchamp of Powick = Elizabeth Stafford
V
Anne Beauchamp = Sir Richard Lygon of Madresfield, Worcestershire
V
Sir Richard Lygon of Madresfield = Margaret Greville
V
William Lygon of Madresfield = Eleanor Dennis (Edward I descent)
V
Thomas Lygon = Frances Dennis (Edward I descent)
V
Thomas Lygon = Elizabeth Pratt
V
Col. Thomas Lygon/Ligon (immigrant to VA) = Mary Harris
V
Richard Ligon = Mary Worsham
V
Sarah Ligon = Richard Grills
V
John Grills = Philadelphia (last name unknown) (also ancestors of former soc.gen.med member Brice Clagett)
V
Elliott Grills = Mary Cox
V
William Dudley Grills = Huldah Julian
V
Huldah Cox Grills = William C. Pitts
V
Laura Alice Pitts = Elmer S. Webb (see line below)
V
Vernene Webb = Hobert A. Yancey
V
Barbara A. Yancey = James Riggan (see line above)
V
Steve Riggan



Alice de Audley (daughter of Sir Hugh de Audley and Isolde le Rous) = Ralph de Greystoke, 1st Baron Greystoke
V
William de Greystoke, 2nd Lord Greystoke = Joan FitzHenry
V
Ralph de Greystoke, 3rd Lord Greystoke = Catherine de Clifford
V
Maud de Clifford = Eudes de Welles (Edward I descent)
V
Lionel de Welles, 6th Lord Welles = Joan de Waterton
V
Margaret de Welles = Sir Philip Dymoke, 14th King’s Champion
V
Sir Lionel Dymoke = Joan Griffith
V
Alice Dymoke = Sir William Skipwith of South Ormsby, Lincolnshire (Edward I descent)
V
Henry Skipwith, Esq. = Jane Hall (Edward I descent)
V
Sir William Skipwith of Cotes, Leicestershire = Margaret Cave (niece of William Cecil, 1st Baron Burghley)
V
Sir Henry Skipwith, 1st Baronet of Prestwold, Leicestershire = Amy Kempe (Edward I descent)
V
Diana Skipwith (immigrant to VA) = Maj. Edward Dale
V
Elizabeth Dale = William Rogers
V
Hannah Rogers = Edward Blakemore
V
John Blakemore = Anne Tomlin
V
Elizabeth Blakemore = Elmore Douglass
V
Delia Douglass = Elias Brooks
V
Elizabeth Brooks = James C. Moore
V
Amanda Moore = William H. Rains
V
Sarah Elizabeth Rains = Enoch Webb
V
Elmer S. Webb = Laura Alice Pitts (see line above)
V
Vernene Webb = Hobert A. Yancey
V
Barbara A. Yancey = James E. Riggan (see first line above)
V
Steve Riggan


I hope this is helpful.

Best regards,
Steve Riggan

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Jordan Vandenberg
2017-12-18 04:52:06 UTC
Permalink
I came across some information on Roger le Rous in Transactions - Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society by Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society (linked below).

https://archive.org/stream/transactionsbris10bris#page/78/mode/2up


It mentions that Roger le Rous also held Alansmore for half a fee, and that the name of the manor was taken from his ancestor Alan Fitz Mayn. It also mentions that Eleanor de Avenbury survived her husband by more than 19 years.

Regards,
Jordan Vandenberg.




On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 5:15:10 AM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Isolde (died 1338), wife successively of Sir Walter de Balun (died 1287) and Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley (died 1325) is claimed in many secondary sources to have been a member of Mortimer family. Two such sources which make the Mortimer claim include Complete Peerage 1 (1910): 347–348 (sub Audley) and James Horace Round, Studies in Peerage and Family History (1901): 206–209. While it is true that Isolde and her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire for the term of their lives by grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer, such a grant does not necessarily mean, suggest, or imply that Isolde was a Mortimer. Beyond the numerous claims in print that Isolde was a Mortimer, I know of no contemporary evidence which supports this allegation.
>
> What evidence we do have includes a contemporary inquisition dated 1326, which indicates that the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire was settled on Sir Walter de Balun and Isolde his wife for life, and the heirs of her body. Following Sir Walter de Balun's death, Isolde and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, were afterwards seised of this manor. A pertinent part of the 1326 inquisition is copied below:
>
> "Gloucestershire. — The Jurors find that Walter de Balun and Isolda his wife, by proceeding in the King's Court at Gloucester, had settled the Manor of Eastington on himself for life, and upon Isolda his wife and the heirs of her body. That by the operation of such settlement they had seisin of this Manor during the life of the said Walter, and then Isolda had seisin thereof as his widow, and that Isolda and Hugh d'Audley were also seised thereof, until the fifteenth of the present King, when the Manor passed into the King's hands as forfeited by the treason of the said Hugh d'Audley, and still continues in such custody. That the Manor was held of the heirs of Nicholas de Merley by half a Knights-fee, and was of the annual value of £20 15s." END OF QUOTE.
>
> Reference: Duncumbe, Collections Towards the History and Antiquities of the County of Hereford 3 (1882): 7, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=0zxAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA7
>
> The above record proves that Isolde had the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire settled on her and her heirs before the death of her first husband, Sir Walter de Balun. As such, in her 1st widowhood, she would have held claim to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right, not by right of dower.
>
> In recent time, I have located a Common Pleas record dated 1289 which proves that Isolde was the daughter of Sir Roger le Rous [died 1294], of Harescombe and Duntisbourne, Gloucestershire, Sheriff of Gloucestershire, 1278–79, Sheriff of Herefordshire, 1293–94, Knight of the Shire for Gloucestershire, 1283, Knight of the Shire for Herefordshire, 1290, itinerant judge, by his wife, Eleanor de Avenbury.
>
> Below is an abstract of this lawsuit:
>
> In 1289 Isolde daughter of Roger le Rus sued Reynold de Balun in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire, which she claimed as her right. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 650f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/aCP40no78fronts/IMG_0650.htm).
>
> The plaintiff above is Isolde "daughter of Roger le Rus" who can only be Isolde, widow of Sir Walter de Balun, who then held the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right. The defendant was Sir Walter de Balun's nephew and heir, Reynold de Balun. Isolde was presumably seeking a release from her late husband's nephew to any claim he might have to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire. A similar lawsuit was lodged against Reginald de Balun regarding Isolde's dower rights in Much Marcle, Herefordshire. See Year Books of Edward I: Years XX & XXI 1 (Rolls Ser. 31a) (1866): 128–129, 142-146, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA128
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA142
>
> The second item commencing on page 142 states that Walter de Balun and his wife, Isolde, were enfeoffed with the manor of Much Marcle, Herefordshire by Roger le Rous (Isolde's father).
>
> For interest's sake, below is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Isolde le Rous and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley:
>
> Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Charles Barnes, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, St. Leger Codd, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Robert Peyton, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.
>
> If you descend from Isolde le Rous, I'd appreciate it greatly if you would post your line of descent(s) from this lady here on the newsgroup.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Jordan Vandenberg
2017-12-18 05:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Collections Towards the History and Antiquities of the County of Hereford ... by By John Duncumb, William Cooke, Morgan George Watkins, John Hobson Matthews has some information on the parish of Avensbury, as well as the some early ancestors of the family (beginning on page 16) . It makes mention of Alianora le Rous, and John le Rous, but there is no identified connection between the earlier Avenbury ancestors and Eleanor.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=q2c-AQAAMAAJ&lpg=PA27&ots=Me4-5Nw7di&dq=%22le%20Rous%22%20avenbury&pg=PA16#v=onepage&q=%22le%20Rous%22%20avenbury&f=false


Regards,
Jordan.




On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 11:52:09 PM UTC-5, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
> I came across some information on Roger le Rous in Transactions - Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society by Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society (linked below).
>
> https://archive.org/stream/transactionsbris10bris#page/78/mode/2up
>
>
> It mentions that Roger le Rous also held Alansmore for half a fee, and that the name of the manor was taken from his ancestor Alan Fitz Mayn. It also mentions that Eleanor de Avenbury survived her husband by more than 19 years.
>
> Regards,
> Jordan Vandenberg.
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 5:15:10 AM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> > Dear Newsgroup ~
> >
> > Isolde (died 1338), wife successively of Sir Walter de Balun (died 1287) and Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley (died 1325) is claimed in many secondary sources to have been a member of Mortimer family. Two such sources which make the Mortimer claim include Complete Peerage 1 (1910): 347–348 (sub Audley) and James Horace Round, Studies in Peerage and Family History (1901): 206–209. While it is true that Isolde and her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire for the term of their lives by grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer, such a grant does not necessarily mean, suggest, or imply that Isolde was a Mortimer. Beyond the numerous claims in print that Isolde was a Mortimer, I know of no contemporary evidence which supports this allegation.
> >
> > What evidence we do have includes a contemporary inquisition dated 1326, which indicates that the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire was settled on Sir Walter de Balun and Isolde his wife for life, and the heirs of her body. Following Sir Walter de Balun's death, Isolde and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, were afterwards seised of this manor. A pertinent part of the 1326 inquisition is copied below:
> >
> > "Gloucestershire. — The Jurors find that Walter de Balun and Isolda his wife, by proceeding in the King's Court at Gloucester, had settled the Manor of Eastington on himself for life, and upon Isolda his wife and the heirs of her body. That by the operation of such settlement they had seisin of this Manor during the life of the said Walter, and then Isolda had seisin thereof as his widow, and that Isolda and Hugh d'Audley were also seised thereof, until the fifteenth of the present King, when the Manor passed into the King's hands as forfeited by the treason of the said Hugh d'Audley, and still continues in such custody. That the Manor was held of the heirs of Nicholas de Merley by half a Knights-fee, and was of the annual value of £20 15s." END OF QUOTE.
> >
> > Reference: Duncumbe, Collections Towards the History and Antiquities of the County of Hereford 3 (1882): 7, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
> >
> > https://books.google.com/books?id=0zxAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA7
> >
> > The above record proves that Isolde had the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire settled on her and her heirs before the death of her first husband, Sir Walter de Balun. As such, in her 1st widowhood, she would have held claim to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right, not by right of dower.
> >
> > In recent time, I have located a Common Pleas record dated 1289 which proves that Isolde was the daughter of Sir Roger le Rous [died 1294], of Harescombe and Duntisbourne, Gloucestershire, Sheriff of Gloucestershire, 1278–79, Sheriff of Herefordshire, 1293–94, Knight of the Shire for Gloucestershire, 1283, Knight of the Shire for Herefordshire, 1290, itinerant judge, by his wife, Eleanor de Avenbury.
> >
> > Below is an abstract of this lawsuit:
> >
> > In 1289 Isolde daughter of Roger le Rus sued Reynold de Balun in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire, which she claimed as her right. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 650f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/aCP40no78fronts/IMG_0650.htm).
> >
> > The plaintiff above is Isolde "daughter of Roger le Rus" who can only be Isolde, widow of Sir Walter de Balun, who then held the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right. The defendant was Sir Walter de Balun's nephew and heir, Reynold de Balun. Isolde was presumably seeking a release from her late husband's nephew to any claim he might have to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire. A similar lawsuit was lodged against Reginald de Balun regarding Isolde's dower rights in Much Marcle, Herefordshire. See Year Books of Edward I: Years XX & XXI 1 (Rolls Ser. 31a) (1866): 128–129, 142-146, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
> >
> > https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA128
> >
> > https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA142
> >
> > The second item commencing on page 142 states that Walter de Balun and his wife, Isolde, were enfeoffed with the manor of Much Marcle, Herefordshire by Roger le Rous (Isolde's father).
> >
> > For interest's sake, below is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Isolde le Rous and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley:
> >
> > Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Charles Barnes, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, St. Leger Codd, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Robert Peyton, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.
> >
> > If you descend from Isolde le Rous, I'd appreciate it greatly if you would post your line of descent(s) from this lady here on the newsgroup.
> >
> > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
2017-12-18 05:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Dear Patrick, Jordan, John, etc. ~

There is a full article in print on the extended family of Isolde le Rous published in Transactions of the Bristol & Gloucestershire Archaeological Society 10 (1885–86): 109–130. This article can be viewed at the following weblink:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433066656731;view=1up;seq=135

The article includes a pedigree of the le Rous family on page 123, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433066656731;view=1up;seq=149

The pedigree shows that Sir Roger le Rous and his wife, Eleanor de Avenbury, had two sons, John and Roger, clerk, and one daughter, Eleanor (wife of Herbert Fitz John). No mention is made of their daughter, Isolde, wife of Walter de Balun, Knt., and Hugh de Audley, Knt., Lord Audley.

As I indicated in my last post, I descend from Sir Roger le Rous' son and heir, John le Rous, Knt., whereas my children descend from Sir Roger le Rous' daughter, Eleanor, wife of Herbert Fitz John, Knt.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
John Watson
2017-12-18 11:17:21 UTC
Permalink
On Monday, 18 December 2017 05:57:19 UTC, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Patrick, Jordan, John, etc. ~
>
> There is a full article in print on the extended family of Isolde le Rous published in Transactions of the Bristol & Gloucestershire Archaeological Society 10 (1885–86): 109–130. This article can be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433066656731;view=1up;seq=135
>
> The article includes a pedigree of the le Rous family on page 123, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433066656731;view=1up;seq=149
>
> The pedigree shows that Sir Roger le Rous and his wife, Eleanor de Avenbury, had two sons, John and Roger, clerk, and one daughter, Eleanor (wife of Herbert Fitz John). No mention is made of their daughter, Isolde, wife of Walter de Balun, Knt., and Hugh de Audley, Knt., Lord Audley.
>
> As I indicated in my last post, I descend from Sir Roger le Rous' son and heir, John le Rous, Knt., whereas my children descend from Sir Roger le Rous' daughter, Eleanor, wife of Herbert Fitz John, Knt.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Dear Douglas,

I think that I can add a little to the Rous pedigree. The widow of Henry le Rous was named Hawise or Helewise. She presented to the church of Duntisbourne Rouse, Gloucestershire in October 1268. Duntisbourne was one of the Rous family holdings.

16 October 1268, Gift in commendam to Hopton (sic), rector of the church of Glonnegunford [Clungunford], in the diocese of Hereford, of the church of Duntesburn, of which Helewysa, widow of Henry le Rus, is patron. Dated at London, Tuesday before the feast of St. Luke the apostle and evangelist, 1268.
J. W. Willis Bund, The Register of Bishop Godfrey Giffard, vol. 1, Worcestershire Historical Society (1902), 13.

Regards,

John
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
2017-12-19 08:09:55 UTC
Permalink
On 2017-12-18 05:57:17 +0000, Douglas Richardson said:

> Dear Patrick, Jordan, John, etc. ~
>
> There is a full article in print on the extended family of Isolde le
> Rous published in Transactions of the Bristol & Gloucestershire
> Archaeological Society 10 (1885–86): 109–130. This article can be
> viewed at the following weblink:
>
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433066656731;view=1up;seq=135
>
> The article includes a pedigree of the le Rous family on page 123,
> which may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433066656731;view=1up;seq=149

As a side note, that article says that in 1283, Roger le Rous was a
knight of the shire for Gloucestershire. A footnote to this statement
says that "it is singular that this particular return is supposed to be
the only existing record of those present at that Parliament, which met
at Shrewsbury, 30th Sep. 1283, one of its results being the execution
of Prince David."

I don't know whether it's actually true that this return is the "only
existing record of those present at that Parliament", but it's worth
noting that the 1283 parliament has been claimed to be the first at
which the peerage sat in one house and the shire knights and burgesses
in another. According to some accounts, following the (lengthy and
grisly) execution of Dafydd, Parliament removed a few miles south to
Acton Burnell, home of Edward I's chancellor Robert Burnell, and there
the "knights of the shire" made the constitutionally-consequential
decision to sit in a separate gathering alongside the town burgesses.
This has been claimed as the origin of the modern houses of Commons and
Lords. Mind you, I don't know how much of this is true and how much is
a good story drummed up by the locals of Acton Burnell.

--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
http://nielsenhayden.com
http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng/
Jordan Vandenberg
2017-12-18 14:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Good day,

In Ancient Facts and Fictions Concerning Churches and Tithes by Roundell Palmer, Earl of Selborne there is a translated passage (pages 354-355) which describes a composition dated from 1181 between Roger, Prior of Llanthony and Roger Fitz Alan. Within the passage Roger Fitz Alan is stated to be the son of Alan Fitz Mayn. This supports that relationship in the pedigree found by Douglas.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=1jZZAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA354&ots=c1i7PIHpFH&dq=%22roger%20fitz%20alan%22%20harescombe&pg=PA354#v=onepage&q=%22roger%20fitz%20alan%22%20harescombe&f=false

Take care,
Jordan Vandenberg.






On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 5:15:10 AM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Isolde (died 1338), wife successively of Sir Walter de Balun (died 1287) and Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley (died 1325) is claimed in many secondary sources to have been a member of Mortimer family. Two such sources which make the Mortimer claim include Complete Peerage 1 (1910): 347–348 (sub Audley) and James Horace Round, Studies in Peerage and Family History (1901): 206–209. While it is true that Isolde and her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire for the term of their lives by grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer, such a grant does not necessarily mean, suggest, or imply that Isolde was a Mortimer. Beyond the numerous claims in print that Isolde was a Mortimer, I know of no contemporary evidence which supports this allegation.
>
> What evidence we do have includes a contemporary inquisition dated 1326, which indicates that the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire was settled on Sir Walter de Balun and Isolde his wife for life, and the heirs of her body. Following Sir Walter de Balun's death, Isolde and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, were afterwards seised of this manor. A pertinent part of the 1326 inquisition is copied below:
>
> "Gloucestershire. — The Jurors find that Walter de Balun and Isolda his wife, by proceeding in the King's Court at Gloucester, had settled the Manor of Eastington on himself for life, and upon Isolda his wife and the heirs of her body. That by the operation of such settlement they had seisin of this Manor during the life of the said Walter, and then Isolda had seisin thereof as his widow, and that Isolda and Hugh d'Audley were also seised thereof, until the fifteenth of the present King, when the Manor passed into the King's hands as forfeited by the treason of the said Hugh d'Audley, and still continues in such custody. That the Manor was held of the heirs of Nicholas de Merley by half a Knights-fee, and was of the annual value of £20 15s." END OF QUOTE.
>
> Reference: Duncumbe, Collections Towards the History and Antiquities of the County of Hereford 3 (1882): 7, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=0zxAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA7
>
> The above record proves that Isolde had the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire settled on her and her heirs before the death of her first husband, Sir Walter de Balun. As such, in her 1st widowhood, she would have held claim to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right, not by right of dower.
>
> In recent time, I have located a Common Pleas record dated 1289 which proves that Isolde was the daughter of Sir Roger le Rous [died 1294], of Harescombe and Duntisbourne, Gloucestershire, Sheriff of Gloucestershire, 1278–79, Sheriff of Herefordshire, 1293–94, Knight of the Shire for Gloucestershire, 1283, Knight of the Shire for Herefordshire, 1290, itinerant judge, by his wife, Eleanor de Avenbury.
>
> Below is an abstract of this lawsuit:
>
> In 1289 Isolde daughter of Roger le Rus sued Reynold de Balun in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire, which she claimed as her right. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/78, image 650f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no78/aCP40no78fronts/IMG_0650.htm).
>
> The plaintiff above is Isolde "daughter of Roger le Rus" who can only be Isolde, widow of Sir Walter de Balun, who then held the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire in her own right. The defendant was Sir Walter de Balun's nephew and heir, Reynold de Balun. Isolde was presumably seeking a release from her late husband's nephew to any claim he might have to the manor of Eastington, Gloucestershire. A similar lawsuit was lodged against Reginald de Balun regarding Isolde's dower rights in Much Marcle, Herefordshire. See Year Books of Edward I: Years XX & XXI 1 (Rolls Ser. 31a) (1866): 128–129, 142-146, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA128
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=T8tCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA142
>
> The second item commencing on page 142 states that Walter de Balun and his wife, Isolde, were enfeoffed with the manor of Much Marcle, Herefordshire by Roger le Rous (Isolde's father).
>
> For interest's sake, below is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Isolde le Rous and her 2nd husband, Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley:
>
> Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Charles Barnes, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, St. Leger Codd, James Cudworth, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Robert Peyton, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.
>
> If you descend from Isolde le Rous, I'd appreciate it greatly if you would post your line of descent(s) from this lady here on the newsgroup.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Adrian
2017-12-19 19:37:26 UTC
Permalink
On 17/12/2017 10:15, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Isolde (died 1338), wife successively of Sir Walter de Balun (died 1287) and Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley (died 1325) is claimed in many secondary sources to have been a member of Mortimer family. Two such sources which make the Mortimer claim include Complete Peerage 1 (1910): 347–348 (sub Audley) and James Horace Round, Studies in Peerage and Family History (1901): 206–209. While it is true that Isolde and her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire for the term of their lives by grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer, such a grant does not necessarily mean, suggest, or imply that Isolde was a Mortimer. Beyond the numerous claims in print that Isolde was a Mortimer, I know of no contemporary evidence which supports this allegation.
SNIP

Fromthe British History on line web site

Plea Rolls for Staffordshire: 21 Edward I [1291], Coram Rege Roll.
Michaelmas.

Staff. "In the suit of Quo warranto against Hugh de Audeleye and Isolda
his wife, who claimed pleas of the Crown and other franchises in Arleye,
Hugh and Isolda appeared in Court and stated they held the said manor
for the life of Isolda of the inheritance of Edmund de Mortimer, without
whom they cannot answer to the writ. ..."

 See:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/staffs-hist-collection/vol7/pt1/pp5-8

 Do you not think the term inheritance is quite good evidence that
Isolda was from the Mortimer family or has this been erroneously
translated/transcribed?

Adrian
Jordan Vandenberg
2017-12-19 21:14:06 UTC
Permalink
After taking into account the evidence identifying an Isolde as a daughter of Roger le Rous and wife of Hugh de Audley, and looking at the previous post to this one, where Adrian has found a plea roll with an Isolde also as the wife of Hugh de Audley and appearing to possibly be a daughter of Edmund de Mortimer, is there a possibility that Hugh de Audley married two women named Isolde?

Does the chronology of what has been uncovered allow for this?

In the 1289 Common Plea identified by Douglas, is there doesn't seem to be any mention of Hugh de Audley. The plea roll Adrian identified dated from 1291.

I am curious as to whether others think this is a possibility.

Take care,
Jordan Vandenberg.




On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 2:37:43 PM UTC-5, Adrian wrote:
> On 17/12/2017 10:15, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> > Dear Newsgroup ~
> >
> > Isolde (died 1338), wife successively of Sir Walter de Balun (died 1287) and Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley (died 1325) is claimed in many secondary sources to have been a member of Mortimer family. Two such sources which make the Mortimer claim include Complete Peerage 1 (1910): 347–348 (sub Audley) and James Horace Round, Studies in Peerage and Family History (1901): 206–209. While it is true that Isolde and her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire for the term of their lives by grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer, such a grant does not necessarily mean, suggest, or imply that Isolde was a Mortimer. Beyond the numerous claims in print that Isolde was a Mortimer, I know of no contemporary evidence which supports this allegation.
> SNIP
>
> Fromthe British History on line web site
>
> Plea Rolls for Staffordshire: 21 Edward I [1291], Coram Rege Roll.
> Michaelmas.
>
> Staff. "In the suit of Quo warranto against Hugh de Audeleye and Isolda
> his wife, who claimed pleas of the Crown and other franchises in Arleye,
> Hugh and Isolda appeared in Court and stated they held the said manor
> for the life of Isolda of the inheritance of Edmund de Mortimer, without
> whom they cannot answer to the writ. ..."
>
>  See:
> http://www.british-history.ac.uk/staffs-hist-collection/vol7/pt1/pp5-8
>
>  Do you not think the term inheritance is quite good evidence that
> Isolda was from the Mortimer family or has this been erroneously
> translated/transcribed?
>
> Adrian
Douglas Richardson
2017-12-19 22:44:19 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 2:14:09 PM UTC-7, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
< After taking into account the evidence identifying an Isolde as a daughter of < Roger le Rous and wife of Hugh de Audley, and looking at the previous post to < this one, where Adrian has found a plea roll with an Isolde also as the wife
< of Hugh de Audley and appearing to possibly be a daughter of Edmund de
< Mortimer, is there a possibility that Hugh de Audley married two women named
< Isolde?

There is abundant evidence that Sir Hugh de Audley married Isolde, widow of Sir Walter de Balun. The plea roll which Adrian cited does not suggest, mean, or imply that Isolde was "possibly" the daughter of Edmund de Mortimer.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake Ciy, Utah
Jordan Vandenberg
2017-12-19 23:56:18 UTC
Permalink
Douglas,

Thanks for clearing that up, and for clarifying the use of the terminology in the lawsuit.

Jordan.



On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:44:22 PM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 2:14:09 PM UTC-7, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:
> < After taking into account the evidence identifying an Isolde as a daughter of < Roger le Rous and wife of Hugh de Audley, and looking at the previous post to < this one, where Adrian has found a plea roll with an Isolde also as the wife
> < of Hugh de Audley and appearing to possibly be a daughter of Edmund de
> < Mortimer, is there a possibility that Hugh de Audley married two women named
> < Isolde?
>
> There is abundant evidence that Sir Hugh de Audley married Isolde, widow of Sir Walter de Balun. The plea roll which Adrian cited does not suggest, mean, or imply that Isolde was "possibly" the daughter of Edmund de Mortimer.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake Ciy, Utah
Douglas Richardson
2017-12-19 22:37:44 UTC
Permalink
Dear Adrian (and Jordan) ~

The 1291 lawsuit which you've cited basically states that Isolde de Audley held the property in question for life, and that the property was to revert to Edmund de Mortimer on her death. That is all.

The terminology "held ... of the inheritance of Edmund de Mortimer" does not suggest, mean, or imply that Isolde was a Mortimer or that Edmund de Mortimer was in any way her heir. In this case, Isolde held the life tenancy of this property by direct grant of Edmund de Mortimer which was made to Isolde and her deceased 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun. On the deaths of Sir Walter and Isolde, the property was to revert to Edmund de Mortimer or his heirs. The words "held of the inheritance" is stock phraseology in lawsuits of this time period. In this case, it basically means that Edmund de Mortimer held the reversion of the life tenancy.

Such life grants (or leases) could be to a priest, steward, bailiff, or knight in the household of Edmund de Mortimer. Such life grants were common. They were not reserved for relatives. Had Isolde been holding the property in dower, one might suppose that she was the widow of a near relation of Edmund de Mortimer. However, in this case, Isolde held this property by direct grant of Edmund de Mortimer himself, so no dower right as a widow was involved. Had Isolde been holding this property in right of her dower (not life tenancy), this would typically be clearly stipulated in the lawsuit. No such stipulation is made in the 1291 lawsuit.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 12:37:43 PM UTC-7, Adrian wrote:
> Plea Rolls for Staffordshire: 21 Edward I [1291], Coram Rege Roll.
> Michaelmas.
>
> Staff. "In the suit of Quo warranto against Hugh de Audeleye and Isolda
> his wife, who claimed pleas of the Crown and other franchises in Arleye,
> Hugh and Isolda appeared in Court and stated they held the said manor
> for the life of Isolda of the inheritance of Edmund de Mortimer, without
> whom they cannot answer to the writ. ..."
>
>  See:
> http://www.british-history.ac.uk/staffs-hist-collection/vol7/pt1/pp5-8
>
>  Do you not think the term inheritance is quite good evidence that
> Isolda was from the Mortimer family or has this been erroneously
> translated/transcribed?
>
> Adrian
Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)
2017-12-19 21:55:57 UTC
Permalink
On 17/12/2017 10:15, Douglas Richardson wrote:

> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Isolde (died 1338), wife successively of Sir Walter de Balun (died 1287) and Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley (died 1325) is claimed in many secondary sources to have been a member of Mortimer family. Two such sources which make the Mortimer claim include Complete Peerage 1 (1910): 347–348 (sub Audley) and James Horace Round, Studies in Peerage and Family History (1901): 206–209. While it is true that Isolde and her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire for the term of their lives by grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer, such a grant does not necessarily mean, suggest, or imply that Isolde was a Mortimer. Beyond the numerous claims in print that Isolde was a Mortimer, I know of no contemporary evidence which supports this allegation.
SNIP

From: Adrian <***@btinternet.com>
Sent: 19 December 2017 19:37
>>
>> Fromthe British History on line web site
>>
>> Plea Rolls for Staffordshire: 21 Edward I [1291], Coram Rege Roll.
Michaelmas.
>>
>> Staff. "In the suit of Quo warranto against Hugh de Audeleye and Isolda
his wife, who claimed pleas of the Crown and other franchises in Arleye,
Hugh and Isolda appeared in Court and stated they held the said manor
for the life of Isolda of the inheritance of Edmund de Mortimer, without
whom they cannot answer to the writ. ..."
>>
>> See:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/staffs-hist-collection/vol7/pt1/pp5-8
>>
>> Do you not think the term inheritance is quite good evidence that
Isolda was from the Mortimer family or has this been erroneously
translated/transcribed?
>>
>> Adrian

-------------------------------
on its face that Plea Roll entry suggests Isolde was the widowed mother of Edmund de Mortimer, remarried to Hugh Audley. But it would help to know more about the 'grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer' mentioned by Douglas (and do we know who that the 'Sir Edmund Mortimer' was? - was he the father of the Edmund Mortimer in the 1291 Plea Roll entry.)

Matt Tompkins
Douglas Richardson
2017-12-20 00:18:51 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 2:56:23 PM UTC-7, Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)

< on its face that Plea Roll entry suggests Isolde was the widowed mother of
< Edmund de Mortimer, remarried to Hugh Audley.

Dear Matt ~

This might be true if Isolde was holding the property named in the 1291 lawsuit as her dower. But the lawsuit does not state that. Indeed, Calendar of Close Rolls, 1323–1327 (1898): 467 clearly indicates that Isolde and her first husband, Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire as a life time grant of Edmund de Mortimer. Thus Isolde held Arley by grant, not by dower, in 1291.

The Close Rolls item may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=XgQOAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA467

Elsewhere I note that Duncumb states Sir Walter de Balun likewise "leased his Manor of Marcle [Herefordshire] for a term of years to Sir Edmund de Mortimer as a reserved rent ... Dying without issue ... his brother and heir, Reginald de Balun, claiming as tenant in tail, demanded possession of the Manor from Sir Edmund de Mortimer, notwithstanding his lease, and disputed the right of his brother’s widow to have one-third of the rents for her dower.” Reference: Duncumb et al., Collections Towards the History & Antiquities of Hereford 3 (1882): 5, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=t4gcAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA5

The cross grants of Arley and Marcle appear to be normal horse trading between two land owners, not the indication of a maritagium. Whatever the case, Arley was not held by Isolde in dower as you suggest.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)
2017-12-20 08:13:28 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 2:56:23 PM UTC-7, Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)

< on its face that Plea Roll entry suggests Isolde was the widowed mother of
< Edmund de Mortimer, remarried to Hugh Audley. But it would help to know more about the 'grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer' mentioned by Douglas (and do we know who that the 'Sir Edmund Mortimer' was? - was he the father of the Edmund Mortimer in the 1291 Plea Roll entry.)

From: Douglas Richardson <***@msn.com>
Sent: 20 December 2017 00:18
>> Dear Matt ~
>>
>> This might be true if Isolde was holding the property named in the 1291 lawsuit as her dower. But the lawsuit does not state that. Indeed, Calendar of Close Rolls, 1323–1327 (1898): 467 clearly indicates that Isolde and her first husband, Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire as a life time grant of Edmund de Mortimer. Thus Isolde held Arley by grant, not by dower, in 1291.
>>
-------------------------------
Thanks, I thought that might be the case.
Don Stone
2017-12-20 17:15:57 UTC
Permalink
The grant in 1287 by Edmund de Mortimer of life use of the manor of
Upper Arley to Walter and Isolde de Balun was apparently part of an
exchange, since at the same time Walter de Balun granted the manor of
Much Marcle to Edmund and Margaret de Mortimer.  I have updated my
"Timeline for Much Marcle (and Upper Arley)" to reflect Douglas's
discovery of Isolde's parentage.  The new version is at
donstonetech.com/IsoldeAudley/MuchMarcleTimeline11.pdf.

My timeline provides some background for various transactions.  The de
Baluns had been having significant financial difficulties and in this
period would usually sell a manor with the stipulation that it could be
bought back  (redeemed) for a specified sum.

As covered in my timeline, the manor of Cheverell was granted to Walter
de Balun and Joan [Iseult] by Roger de Rous sometime before 1292 “to
hold to them and to the heirs of Joan [Iseult],” and the manor of
Eastington was granted to Walter de Balun and Isolda by Roger de Rous in
1286/7 “to have to them and her heirs.”

Quoting from my timeline, "... since both Cheverell and Eastington had
been in the Balun family for a long time, they might have been sold by a
Balun to Roger de Rous (because of Balun financial difficulties), and
the two Roger Rous grants to Walter and Isolde Balun may have been
redemptions on easy terms, given that Walter had married Roger's daughter?"

 -- Don Stone


On 12/20/2017 3:13 AM, Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.) wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 2:56:23 PM UTC-7, Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)
>
> < on its face that Plea Roll entry suggests Isolde was the widowed mother of
> < Edmund de Mortimer, remarried to Hugh Audley. But it would help to know more about the 'grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer' mentioned by Douglas (and do we know who that the 'Sir Edmund Mortimer' was? - was he the father of the Edmund Mortimer in the 1291 Plea Roll entry.)
>
> From: Douglas Richardson <***@msn.com>
> Sent: 20 December 2017 00:18
>>> Dear Matt ~
>>>
>>> This might be true if Isolde was holding the property named in the 1291 lawsuit as her dower. But the lawsuit does not state that. Indeed, Calendar of Close Rolls, 1323–1327 (1898): 467 clearly indicates that Isolde and her first husband, Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire as a life time grant of Edmund de Mortimer. Thus Isolde held Arley by grant, not by dower, in 1291.
>>>
> -------------------------------
> Thanks, I thought that might be the case.
John Watson
2017-12-20 19:13:09 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, 20 December 2017 17:16:05 UTC, Don Stone wrote:
> The grant in 1287 by Edmund de Mortimer of life use of the manor of
> Upper Arley to Walter and Isolde de Balun was apparently part of an
> exchange, since at the same time Walter de Balun granted the manor of
> Much Marcle to Edmund and Margaret de Mortimer.  I have updated my
> "Timeline for Much Marcle (and Upper Arley)" to reflect Douglas's
> discovery of Isolde's parentage.  The new version is at
> donstonetech.com/IsoldeAudley/MuchMarcleTimeline11.pdf.
>
> My timeline provides some background for various transactions.  The de
> Baluns had been having significant financial difficulties and in this
> period would usually sell a manor with the stipulation that it could be
> bought back  (redeemed) for a specified sum.
>
> As covered in my timeline, the manor of Cheverell was granted to Walter
> de Balun and Joan [Iseult] by Roger de Rous sometime before 1292 “to
> hold to them and to the heirs of Joan [Iseult],” and the manor of
> Eastington was granted to Walter de Balun and Isolda by Roger de Rous in
> 1286/7 “to have to them and her heirs.”
>
> Quoting from my timeline, "... since both Cheverell and Eastington had
> been in the Balun family for a long time, they might have been sold by a
> Balun to Roger de Rous (because of Balun financial difficulties), and
> the two Roger Rous grants to Walter and Isolde Balun may have been
> redemptions on easy terms, given that Walter had married Roger's daughter?"
>
>  -- Don Stone
>
>
> On 12/20/2017 3:13 AM, Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.) wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 2:56:23 PM UTC-7, Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)
> >
> > < on its face that Plea Roll entry suggests Isolde was the widowed mother of
> > < Edmund de Mortimer, remarried to Hugh Audley. But it would help to know more about the 'grant dated 1287 from Sir Edmund de Mortimer' mentioned by Douglas (and do we know who that the 'Sir Edmund Mortimer' was? - was he the father of the Edmund Mortimer in the 1291 Plea Roll entry.)
> >
> > From: Douglas Richardson <***@msn.com>
> > Sent: 20 December 2017 00:18
> >>> Dear Matt ~
> >>>
> >>> This might be true if Isolde was holding the property named in the 1291 lawsuit as her dower. But the lawsuit does not state that. Indeed, Calendar of Close Rolls, 1323–1327 (1898): 467 clearly indicates that Isolde and her first husband, Walter de Balun, had the manor of Arley, Staffordshire as a life time grant of Edmund de Mortimer. Thus Isolde held Arley by grant, not by dower, in 1291.
> >>>
> > -------------------------------
> > Thanks, I thought that might be the case.

Hi Don,

In 1281, Walter de Balun was married to a lady named Joan, who was then aged 40 and more. Presumably Joan was his first wife and he married Isolde some time between 1281 and 1287.

See the inquisition post mortem of Geoffrey Gacelyn.
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 2, Edward I (1906), no. 422.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol2/pp239-245

Regards,

John
Don Stone
2017-12-22 06:17:26 UTC
Permalink
[My response to John is at the end, so that our conversation can be read
in chronological order from top to bottom.]

On 12/20/2017 2:13 PM, John Watson wrote:
> On Wednesday, 20 December 2017 17:16:05 UTC, Don Stone wrote:
>> The grant in 1287 by Edmund de Mortimer of life use of the manor of
>> Upper Arley to Walter and Isolde de Balun was apparently part of an
>> exchange, since at the same time Walter de Balun granted the manor of
>> Much Marcle to Edmund and Margaret de Mortimer.  I have updated my
>> "Timeline for Much Marcle (and Upper Arley)" to reflect Douglas's
>> discovery of Isolde's parentage.  The new version is at
>> donstonetech.com/IsoldeAudley/MuchMarcleTimeline11.pdf.
>>
>> My timeline provides some background for various transactions.  The de
>> Baluns had been having significant financial difficulties and in this
>> period would usually sell a manor with the stipulation that it could be
>> bought back  (redeemed) for a specified sum.
>>
>> As covered in my timeline, the manor of Cheverell was granted to Walter
>> de Balun and Joan [Iseult] by Roger de Rous sometime before 1292 “to
>> hold to them and to the heirs of Joan [Iseult],” and the manor of
>> Eastington was granted to Walter de Balun and Isolda by Roger de Rous in
>> 1286/7 “to have to them and her heirs.”
>>
>> Quoting from my timeline, "... since both Cheverell and Eastington had
>> been in the Balun family for a long time, they might have been sold by a
>> Balun to Roger de Rous (because of Balun financial difficulties), and
>> the two Roger Rous grants to Walter and Isolde Balun may have been
>> redemptions on easy terms, given that Walter had married Roger's daughter?"
>>
>>  -- Don Stone
> Hi Don,
>
> In 1281, Walter de Balun was married to a lady named Joan, who was then aged 40 and more. Presumably Joan was his first wife and he married Isolde some time between 1281 and 1287.
>
> See the inquisition post mortem of Geoffrey Gacelyn.
> Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 2, Edward I (1906), no. 422.
> https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol2/pp239-245
>
> Regards,
>
> John

Hi, John,

This matter of Joan or Isolde as wife or wives of Walter de Balun is a
tricky issue. Joan is still given as wife of Hugh de Audley in 1292 in
Year Books of the Reign of King Edward the First: Years XX-XXI (1866),
edited by Alfred John Horwood, p. 142, which relates to the manor of C.
[Cheverell] and says, "Hugh de Audele and Joan his wife brought a writ
of Dower against Reginald de Balon, and demanded the third part of the
manor of Marcle &c. —"
(https://books.google.com/books?id=q_QUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA142&lpg=PA142#v=onepage&q&f=false).

In the New England Historical and Genealogical Register, vol. 116
(1962), "Two Mortimer Notes," Charles F. H. Evans says (pp. 16-7), "The
wife of Hugh Audley, and widow of Walter de Balun, is described as Jone
(not Isolt) in 1292 (Year Book, 20 Edward I); but elsewhere she is
called Isolt."

-- Don
John Watson
2017-12-22 07:07:54 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, 22 December 2017 06:17:33 UTC, Don Stone wrote:
> [My response to John is at the end, so that our conversation can be read
> in chronological order from top to bottom.]
>
> On 12/20/2017 2:13 PM, John Watson wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 20 December 2017 17:16:05 UTC, Don Stone wrote:
> >> The grant in 1287 by Edmund de Mortimer of life use of the manor of
> >> Upper Arley to Walter and Isolde de Balun was apparently part of an
> >> exchange, since at the same time Walter de Balun granted the manor of
> >> Much Marcle to Edmund and Margaret de Mortimer.  I have updated my
> >> "Timeline for Much Marcle (and Upper Arley)" to reflect Douglas's
> >> discovery of Isolde's parentage.  The new version is at
> >> donstonetech.com/IsoldeAudley/MuchMarcleTimeline11.pdf.
> >>
> >> My timeline provides some background for various transactions.  The de
> >> Baluns had been having significant financial difficulties and in this
> >> period would usually sell a manor with the stipulation that it could be
> >> bought back  (redeemed) for a specified sum.
> >>
> >> As covered in my timeline, the manor of Cheverell was granted to Walter
> >> de Balun and Joan [Iseult] by Roger de Rous sometime before 1292 “to
> >> hold to them and to the heirs of Joan [Iseult],” and the manor of
> >> Eastington was granted to Walter de Balun and Isolda by Roger de Rous in
> >> 1286/7 “to have to them and her heirs.”
> >>
> >> Quoting from my timeline, "... since both Cheverell and Eastington had
> >> been in the Balun family for a long time, they might have been sold by a
> >> Balun to Roger de Rous (because of Balun financial difficulties), and
> >> the two Roger Rous grants to Walter and Isolde Balun may have been
> >> redemptions on easy terms, given that Walter had married Roger's daughter?"
> >>
> >>  -- Don Stone
> > Hi Don,
> >
> > In 1281, Walter de Balun was married to a lady named Joan, who was then aged 40 and more. Presumably Joan was his first wife and he married Isolde some time between 1281 and 1287.
> >
> > See the inquisition post mortem of Geoffrey Gacelyn.
> > Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 2, Edward I (1906), no. 422.
> > https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol2/pp239-245
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > John
>
> Hi, John,
>
> This matter of Joan or Isolde as wife or wives of Walter de Balun is a
> tricky issue. Joan is still given as wife of Hugh de Audley in 1292 in
> Year Books of the Reign of King Edward the First: Years XX-XXI (1866),
> edited by Alfred John Horwood, p. 142, which relates to the manor of C.
> [Cheverell] and says, "Hugh de Audele and Joan his wife brought a writ
> of Dower against Reginald de Balon, and demanded the third part of the
> manor of Marcle &c. —"
> (https://books.google.com/books?id=q_QUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA142&lpg=PA142#v=onepage&q&f=false).
>
> In the New England Historical and Genealogical Register, vol. 116
> (1962), "Two Mortimer Notes," Charles F. H. Evans says (pp. 16-7), "The
> wife of Hugh Audley, and widow of Walter de Balun, is described as Jone
> (not Isolt) in 1292 (Year Book, 20 Edward I); but elsewhere she is
> called Isolt."
>
> -- Don

Dear Don,

According to the inquisition post mortem which I linked in my previous post, Joan was aged "40 and more" in 1281.

Joan was unlikely to be the mother of Hugh de Audely's children who were born between 1288 and 1300.

Regarding the names in Year Books. See the earlier post in this thread by Matt Tompkins, "Year Books weren't official case reports, they were just manuscript collections of notes made by student lawyers for their own personal use while sitting in the courts listening and learning. They were principally interested in the legal issues raised, for which purpose the names of the individual parties to the suits were not really relevant. Frequently the names were not even recorded."

Regards,

John
taf
2017-12-22 12:46:23 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, December 21, 2017 at 11:07:56 PM UTC-8, John Watson wrote:

> Regarding the names in Year Books. See the earlier post in this thread by
> Matt Tompkins, "Year Books weren't official case reports, they were just
> manuscript collections of notes made by student lawyers for their own personal
> use while sitting in the courts listening and learning. They were principally
> interested in the legal issues raised, for which purpose the names of the
> individual parties to the suits were not really relevant. Frequently the
> names were not even recorded."

Just to be sure I am following the argument, are you saying that since the names were unimportant we can dismiss any names given when the student opted to provide them?

taf
Hans Vogels
2017-12-22 13:09:06 UTC
Permalink
Op vrijdag 22 december 2017 13:46:25 UTC+1 schreef taf:
> On Thursday, December 21, 2017 at 11:07:56 PM UTC-8, John Watson wrote:
>
> > Regarding the names in Year Books. See the earlier post in this thread by
> > Matt Tompkins, "Year Books weren't official case reports, they were just
> > manuscript collections of notes made by student lawyers for their own personal
> > use while sitting in the courts listening and learning. They were principally
> > interested in the legal issues raised, for which purpose the names of the
> > individual parties to the suits were not really relevant. Frequently the
> > names were not even recorded."
>
> Just to be sure I am following the argument, are you saying that since the names were unimportant we can dismiss any names given when the student opted to provide them?
>
> taf

Or the date of the notes (with regard to the yearbooks) does not matter as the examples could have been from years earlier?

Hans Vogels
Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)
2017-12-22 22:36:43 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, December 21, 2017 at 11:07:56 PM UTC-8, John Watson wrote:

> Regarding the names in Year Books. See the earlier post in this thread by
> Matt Tompkins, "Year Books weren't official case reports, they were just
> manuscript collections of notes made by student lawyers for their own personal
> use while sitting in the courts listening and learning. They were principally
> interested in the legal issues raised, for which purpose the names of the
> individual parties to the suits were not really relevant. Frequently the
> names were not even recorded."

From: taf <***@gmail.com>
Sent: 22 December 2017 12:46
>> Just to be sure I am following the argument, are you saying that since the names were unimportant we can dismiss any names given when the student opted to provide them?
>>
>> taf

-------------------------------
Dismissing the names out of hand would be a bit extreme, but, like all documents where the accuracy of some parts was not of importance to the record-creator, they should be treated with caution.

Matt Tompkins
Adrian
2017-12-19 23:59:51 UTC
Permalink
On 19/12/2017 19:37, Adrian wrote:
>
>
> On 17/12/2017 10:15, Douglas Richardson wrote:
>> Dear Newsgroup ~
>>
>> Isolde (died 1338), wife successively of Sir Walter de Balun (died
>> 1287) and Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley (died 1325) is claimed in
>> many secondary sources to have been a member of Mortimer family.  Two
>> such sources which make the Mortimer claim include Complete Peerage 1
>> (1910): 347–348 (sub Audley) and James Horace Round, Studies in
>> Peerage and Family History (1901): 206–209.  While it is true that
>> Isolde and her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, had the manor of
>> Arley, Staffordshire for the term of their lives by grant dated 1287
>> from Sir Edmund de Mortimer, such a grant does not necessarily mean,
>> suggest, or imply that Isolde was a Mortimer.  Beyond the numerous
>> claims in print that Isolde was a Mortimer, I know of no contemporary
>> evidence which supports this allegation.
> SNIP
>
> Fromthe British History on line web site
>
> Plea Rolls for Staffordshire: 21 Edward I [1291], Coram Rege Roll.
> Michaelmas.
>
> Staff. "In the suit of Quo warranto against Hugh de Audeleye and
> Isolda his wife, who claimed pleas of the Crown and other franchises
> in Arleye, Hugh and Isolda appeared in Court and stated they held the
> said manor for the life of Isolda of the inheritance of Edmund de
> Mortimer, without whom they cannot answer to the writ. ..."
>
>  See:
> http://www.british-history.ac.uk/staffs-hist-collection/vol7/pt1/pp5-8
>
>  Do you not think the term inheritance is quite good evidence that
> Isolda was from the Mortimer family or has this been erroneously
> translated/transcribed?
>
> Adrian
>

Sorry, I put in the wrong year, I think Michaelmas 21 Ed I is 1293

Adrian
Douglas Richardson
2017-12-23 08:52:11 UTC
Permalink
Dear Newsgroup ~

The published Year Book for 20 Edward I [1292] appears to concern lawsuits recorded in the Herefordshire Eyre of the justices itinerant for that year. The 1292 eyre can be viewed by accessing it at the AALT website at the following weblink:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/JUST1/JUST1_E1e.html

Go down to the year 1292, then go 4th column over for Herefordshire.

The title description on the first page of this eyre almost exactly matches the description of the eyre as found in the published yearbook.

The first page of the 1292 Herefordshire eyre may be found at the following weblink:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no302/

I examined a few items from this eyre. I was unable to find the lawsuits which were discussed in the published Year Book. However, I did find the following item:

1. Roger le Rus acknowledged that he owed Laurence de Lodelawe a debt of £12 12s. 9d.

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no302/aJUST1no302fronts/IMG_8193.htm

In a subsequent Justice Itinerant record dated Michaelmas term 1293, I found the following item:

Heref[ord]

Margareta ux Edmundi de Mortuo Mari v. Reginald de Balon John de Balon Hugone de Alditheleye Isolda ux eius Henr' de Preston & Laurencius de Lodelawe in a plea ...

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no304/aJUST1no304fronts/IMG_8990.htm

This item appears to be a summary of a lawsuit by Margaret wife (not widow) of Edmund de Mortimer against Reginald de Balon, John de Balon, Hugh de Audley and Isolde his wife, and two other parties.

Checking further I found the actual lawsuit a few images earlier at the following weblink:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no304/aJUST1no304fronts/IMG_8983.htm

The specific lawsuit is dated Easter term 22 Edward I [1294].

It commences by saying that an assize was held to determine if Reynold de Balun, John de Balun, Hugh de Alditheleye [Audley] and Isolde his wife, Henry de Preston, and Laurence de Ludelowe unjustly disseised Edmund de Mortimer and Margaret his wife of his free tenement in Great Marcle, Herefordshire. Hugh de Audley came into court and stated that his wife Isolde held the third part of the said manor by her dower.

As we can see, Hugh de Audley's wife in 1294 was definitely named Isolde and she was surely the widow of Walter de Balun.

A few images nearby I also found another lawsuit dated Michaelmas term 22 Edward I [1294].

It commences by saying that an assize was held to determine if Henry de Solers, Reginald de Balun, and John de Balun unjustly disseised Edmund de Mortimer and Margaret his wife regarding his free tenement in Great Marcle, Herefordshire. Walter de Balun is mentioned in the subsequent discussion but no mention is made of Hugh de Audley and his wife, Isolde.

Here is the weblink for that lawsuit:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no304/aJUST1no304fronts/IMG_8992.htm

I would advise that no one be confused by the various dates of these lawsuits, be it 1291, 1292, or 1294. Some lawsuits were continued from year to year and they can appear in more than one session.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
c***@gmail.com
2017-12-29 20:46:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Newsgroup ~

This past week I came across a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1292 involving Isolde le Rus' brother-in-law, Reynold de Balun, and Edmund de Mortimer and Margaret his wife. The place involved is not stated, but I assume the lawsuit concerns the manor of Great Marcle, Herefordshire. Below is an abstract of that record.

In Hilary term 1292 Reynold de Balun sued Edmund de Mortimer and Margaret his wife in the Court of Common Pleas in a plea of land.

Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/92, image 130f (available at
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no92/aCP40no92fronts/IMG_0130.htm).

The record below dated 1285 explains why Margaret de Fiennes, wife of Edmund de Mortimer, was involved in the later legal wrangling regarding the manor of Great Marcle, Herefordshire.

Byerly & Byerly, Records of the Wardrobe & Household 1285–1286 (1986): 4 [“xijo die Decembris [1285] Rogero de Stokes clerico eunti ap capiendam seysinam de manerio de Markel’ per perceptum regis de quo dominus Edmundus de Mortuo Mari feofabit uxorem suam, xxx s. unde respondebit.”).

It would be good to see more people post their descent from Isolde le Rus and her 2nd husband, Hugh de Audley, Knt., Lord Audley.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
c***@gmail.com
2018-01-17 19:54:21 UTC
Permalink
Dear Newsgroup ~

Below is another Common Pleas lawsuit involving Isolde le Rous, wife of Hugh de Audley, Knt., Lord Audley. This lawsuit concerns Isolde's manor of Much Marcle, Herefordshire, which property was settled on Isolde and her 1st husband, Sir Walter de Balun, by her father, Sir Roger le Rous.

In Hilary term 1330 Isolde, widow of Hugh Daudele, sued John Brid, of Eldersfield, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a reasonable account of the time he was her bailiff in Much Marcle, Herefordshire.

Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/282, image 351f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no282/aCP40no282fronts/IMG_0351.htm).

If you descend from Isolde le Rous and her 2nd husband, Hugh de Audley, Knt., Lord Audley (as I know many of you do), I'd appreciate it if you would post your line of descent from this couple.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
William Collins
2018-01-19 03:02:24 UTC
Permalink
I have a number of lines from Isolde le Rous and Hugh de Audley, but here is one:
Descendancy from Isolde le Rous

Isolde le Rous Hugh de Audley
Alice de Augley Ralph de Greystoke
William de Greystoke Joan FitzHugh
Ralph Greystoke Katherine Clifford
John Greystoke Elizabeth de Ferrers
Joan Greystoke John Darcy
Richard Darcy Eleanor le Scrope
William Darcy Euphame Langton
Thomas Darcy Dowsabel Tempest
Arthur Darcy Mary Carew
Elizabeth Darcy Lewis Mordaunt
Mary Mordaunt Thomas Mansel
Arthur Mansel Jane Price
Catrin Mansel William Thomas
Anne Thomas Jeremiah Dawkin
Priscilla Dawkin William Collins
Charles Collins Sarah Hammond
Isaac Collins Rachel Budd
Thomas Collins Ann Abbott
Francis Collins Anna Whitehead
Charles Collins Mary Robbins
Alfred Collins Emily Johnson
William Collins
j***@gmail.com
2018-01-20 01:00:49 UTC
Permalink
> Descendancy from Isolde le Rous
>
> Isolde le Rous Hugh de Audley
> Alice de Audley Ralph de Greystoke
> William de Greystoke Joan FitzHugh
> Ralph Greystoke Katherine Clifford
> Maud Greystoke Eudes Welles
> Lionel Welles Joan Waterton
> Margaret Wells Thomas Dymoke
> Lionel Dymoke Joan Griffith AND Jane Dymoke John Fulnetby
> Anne Dymoke John Goodrick AND Kath. Fulnetby Wm Dynewell
> Lionel Goodrick Winifred SapcoteAND Anne Dynewell Hen. Whitgift
> Anne Goodrick Benjamin Bolles AND Wm Whitgift
> Thomas Bolles Eliz Perkins AND Eliz Whitfit Wymond Bradbury
> Joseph Bolles AND Thomas Bradbury, immigrants to USA

There are also three descents to Henry Dudley, probable grandfather of Governor Thomas Dudley.

Thomas Dudley, Joseph Bolles, and Thomas Bradbury are all ancestors of mine.
--JC
c***@gmail.com
2018-01-30 22:02:04 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, January 19, 2018 at 6:00:51 PM UTC-7, ***@gmail.com wrote:
< Descendancy from Isolde le Rous
<
< 1. Isolde le Rous, married Hugh de Audley
< 2. Alice de Audley, married Ralph de Greystoke
< 3. William de Greystoke, married Joan Fitz Hugh
< 4. Ralph Greystoke, married Katherine Clifford
< 5. Maud Greystoke, married Eudes Welles
< 6. Lionel Welles, married Joan Waterton
< 7. Margaret Wells, married Thomas Dymoke
< 8. Lionel Dymoke, married Joan Griffith
> 9. Anne Dymoke, married John Goodrick
> 10.Lionel Goodrick, married Winifred Sapcote
< 11. Anne Goodrick, married Benjamin Bolles
< 12. Thomas Bolles, married Elizabeth Perkins
< 13. Joseph Bolles, immigrant

< 9. Jane Dymoke, married John Fulnetby
< 10. Katherine Fulnetby, married Wm Dynewell
< 11. Anne Dynewell, married Henry Whitgift
< 12. Wm Whitgift
< 13. Elizabeth Whitgift, married Wymond Bradbury
< 14. Thomas Bradbury, immigrant

< There are also three descents to Henry Dudley, probable grandfather of
< Governor Thomas Dudley.

< --JC

Thanks Joe for posting two descents, one going down to Joseph Bolles, the other to Thomas Bradbury. The two descents got a bit garbled in the posted message, so I separated the lines into two distinct lines above.

Good news. I can verify that the Bolles line is good down all the way down to the immigrant. Yahoo!

As for the Bradbury descent, it is based on a working theory proposed by Marshall Kirk published in NEHGR 161 (2007): 27–36. The theory, while likely, remains unproven. At the present time, the line is only good down to Jane Dymoke, wife of John Fulnetby [Gen. 9 above]. I've been unable to prove that John Fulnetby had a daughter, Katherine, who married William Dynewell. If you know of such evidence, I'd like to see it.

Regarding the three descents down to Henry Dudley, who you have called the "probable" grandfather of Gov. Thomas Dudley, surely you know there is no direct evidence which links Henry Dudley to Gov. Dudley's father, Capt. Roger Dudley. This is another Marshal Kirk theory. Basically Mr. Kirk developed his theory and then marshalled the evidence to fit it. He totally ignored any extraneous or miscellaneous Dudley families.

The correct approach is to examine ALL available Dudley families and see if one fits. While all things are possible, in this case, Marshall Kirk's Dudley theory has a lot of problems. I stopped using it many years ago. Again, if you know of evidence to prove the line, I'd certainly like to see it.

Probable is when lands pass from one person to another. Probable is when they lived in the same parish. Probable is when family names match. Probable is when the immigrant is called cousin by a known descendant of Henry Dudley in contemporary records. None of this is true with Marshall Kirk's Dudley theory. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? I wouldn't bet my life on it. As a Dudley descendant, I'd like to see this line proven just as much as anyone. Right now .... no soap. Or should I say no evidence. Grin.

Again thanks for posting your descents.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
j***@gmail.com
2018-01-30 23:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Douglas,
For what it's worth I largely agree with your analysis, but put more weight on the Dudley line than you do based on the use of the seal and the lack of possible candidates for his grandfather.
Actually, I believe the Dudley line is more likely to be essentially right than Marshall's Bradbury line...the NEGHR article I thought made a few leaps of faith...or possibly just was lacking editorally in connecting the dots. Of course I cannot blame Mr. Kirk for this or the article's editor/submitter either given the circumstances of his untimely death.

The good news for the Bradbury line is that there is probably more chance of a stray record turning up that will provide an answer at some point than the seemingly intractable Dudley question (although I will be excited anyway to read the book in progress on the Dudley question and some of the more recent findings when it is fully in print)

Thanks Joe Cook
c***@gmail.com
2018-06-04 12:05:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 6:54:57 PM UTC-5, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> Douglas,
> For what it's worth I largely agree with your analysis, but put more weight on the Dudley line than you do based on the use of the seal and the lack of possible candidates for his grandfather.
> Actually, I believe the Dudley line is more likely to be essentially right than Marshall's Bradbury line...the NEGHR article I thought made a few leaps of faith...or possibly just was lacking editorally in connecting the dots. Of course I cannot blame Mr. Kirk for this or the article's editor/submitter either given the circumstances of his untimely death.
>
> The good news for the Bradbury line is that there is probably more chance of a stray record turning up that will provide an answer at some point than the seemingly intractable Dudley question (although I will be excited anyway to read the book in progress on the Dudley question and some of the more recent findings when it is fully in print)
>
> Thanks Joe Cook

My Line from what I gather.
1. Isolde > Hugh Audley
2. Hugh Audley > Margaret Clare
3. Margaret Audley > Ralph Stafford
4. Katherine Stafford > John Dudley/Sutton 1339
5. John Dudley 1361 > Joan ?
6. John Dudley 1380 > Constance Blount
7. John Dudley 1400 > Elizabeth Berkeley
8. Edmund Dudley > Matilda Maud Clifford
9. Thomas Dudley > Grace Threkheld
10. Richard Dudley > Dorothy Sanford
11. John Dudley > Bridget Carre
12. Robert Dudley 1548 > Ann Wood
13. Robert Dudley 1565 > Bridget Green
14.Edward Dudley > Elizabeth Pritchard
15. Richard Dudley > Mary Seawell/Sewell
16. Ambrose Dudley > Anne Foster
17. George Dudley 1690 > Judith Armistead
18. George Dudley 1735 > Dorothy Tabb
19. Susannah Dudley > Thomas B. Carter 1770
20. Thomas B. Carter 1804 > Anna Blacker/Black ?
21. John Fayette Carter > Amanda Jane Cook
22. Bessie W. Carter > Albert B. Stonerock
23. Nellie Mary Stonerock > Finley Earl Greenlee
24. Wayne Jay Greenlee > Joann Katherine Dengel
25. Steven Jay Greenlee > Lisa A. Worden (GATEWAY Peter Worden I)
26. Cara Louann Greenlee
20.
lmahler@att.net
2018-07-15 19:48:51 UTC
Permalink
On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 5:05:36 AM UTC-7, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 6:54:57 PM UTC-5, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > Douglas,
> > For what it's worth I largely agree with your analysis, but put more weight on the Dudley line than you do based on the use of the seal and the lack of possible candidates for his grandfather.
> > Actually, I believe the Dudley line is more likely to be essentially right than Marshall's Bradbury line...the NEGHR article I thought made a few leaps of faith...or possibly just was lacking editorally in connecting the dots. Of course I cannot blame Mr. Kirk for this or the article's editor/submitter either given the circumstances of his untimely death.
> >
> > The good news for the Bradbury line is that there is probably more chance of a stray record turning up that will provide an answer at some point than the seemingly intractable Dudley question (although I will be excited anyway to read the book in progress on the Dudley question and some of the more recent findings when it is fully in print)
> >
> > Thanks Joe Cook
>
> My Line from what I gather.
> 1. Isolde > Hugh Audley
> 2. Hugh Audley > Margaret Clare
> 3. Margaret Audley > Ralph Stafford
> 4. Katherine Stafford > John Dudley/Sutton 1339
> 5. John Dudley 1361 > Joan ?
> 6. John Dudley 1380 > Constance Blount
> 7. John Dudley 1400 > Elizabeth Berkeley
> 8. Edmund Dudley > Matilda Maud Clifford
> 9. Thomas Dudley > Grace Threkheld
> 10. Richard Dudley > Dorothy Sanford
> 11. John Dudley > Bridget Carre
> 12. Robert Dudley 1548 > Ann Wood
> 13. Robert Dudley 1565 > Bridget Green
> 14.Edward Dudley > Elizabeth Pritchard
> 15. Richard Dudley > Mary Seawell/Sewell
> 16. Ambrose Dudley > Anne Foster
> 17. George Dudley 1690 > Judith Armistead
> 18. George Dudley 1735 > Dorothy Tabb
> 19. Susannah Dudley > Thomas B. Carter 1770
> 20. Thomas B. Carter 1804 > Anna Blacker/Black ?
> 21. John Fayette Carter > Amanda Jane Cook
> 22. Bessie W. Carter > Albert B. Stonerock
> 23. Nellie Mary Stonerock > Finley Earl Greenlee
> 24. Wayne Jay Greenlee > Joann Katherine Dengel
> 25. Steven Jay Greenlee > Lisa A. Worden (GATEWAY Peter Worden I)
> 26. Cara Louann Greenlee
> 20.


This Dudley family of Virginia was discussed in this newsgroup
back in 1999:


"There are two complete breaks in this ancestry, and several questions that must
be answered. I would be only too happy for the connection to be correct, but
it is not.

1. What evidence is there that the Virginia immigrant was from Bristol,
Gloucestershire, England?

2. What evidence is there that Robert Dudley of Newcastle had a son named
Edward who went to Bristol [a very unusual migration route], and then to
Virginia? This is the first complete break.

3. What evidence is there that Richard Dudley, of Yanwath, Cumberland, had a
son named John who founded the Newcastle line? He had two sons, Edward and
Robert, and a number of daughters. This is the second complete break."

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/XYDhkOcbUpU/96GakJTkQQoJ;context-place=topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/BkwblrmaJlg



This lineage was analyzed in an article published in 1972,
which apparently pointed out the same problems:

https://books.google.com/books?id=yZpbAAAAMAAJ&q=john+dudley+bridget+carre&dq=john+dudley+bridget+carre&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjsn9b47qHcAhUCNKwKHTnKAq4Q6AEILTAB


Leslie
c***@gmail.com
2018-01-30 21:34:11 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, January 18, 2018 at 8:02:26 PM UTC-7, William Collins wrote:
< I have a number of lines from Isolde le Rous and Hugh de Audley, but here is one:
< Descendancy from Isolde le Rous
<
< Isolde le Rous Hugh de Audley
< Alice de Augley Ralph de Greystoke
< William de Greystoke Joan FitzHugh
< Ralph Greystoke Katherine Clifford
< John Greystoke Elizabeth de Ferrers
< Joan Greystoke John Darcy
< Richard Darcy Eleanor le Scrope
< William Darcy Euphame Langton
< Thomas Darcy Dowsabel Tempest
< Arthur Darcy Mary Carew
< Elizabeth Darcy Lewis Mordaunt
< Mary Mordaunt Thomas Mansel
> Arthur Mansel Jane Price
< Catrin Mansel William Thomas
< Anne Thomas Jeremiah Dawkin
< Priscilla Dawkin William Collins
< Charles Collins Sarah Hammond
< Isaac Collins Rachel Budd
< Thomas Collins Ann Abbott
< Francis Collins Anna Whitehead
< Charles Collins Mary Robbins
< Alfred Collins Emily Johnson
< William Collins

Dear William ~

Thank you for sharing your line of descent from Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley, and his wife, Isolde le Rous.

I can't speak for your entire line of descent but the line you posted is definitely good down to Elizabeth Darcy above who married Lewis Mordaunt, 3rd Lord Mordaunt.

If you have other lines of descent you can post, I'd enjoy seeing them. Again thanks.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
h***@gmail.com
2018-07-14 11:49:50 UTC
Permalink
Douglas,

Thanks for this post. This is one of my lineages from Iseult le Rous:

1. Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley = Iseult le Rous
2. Sir Hugh de Audley, 1st Baron Audley, 1st Earl of Gloucester = Margaret de Clare, Countess of Gloucester, Countess of Cornwall
3. Ralph de Stafford, 2nd Baron Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford, KG = Margaret de Audley, 2nd Baroness Audley, Countess of Stafford
4. Thomas de Ros, 4th Baron de Ros of Hamlake = Beatrice Stafford
5. Sir Thomas de Clifford, 6th Baron de Clifford = Elizabeth de Ros
6. Sir John Clifford, 7th Baron de Clifford, KG = Elizabeth Percy
7. Sir Philip Wentworth, Kt., of Nettlestead, Suffolk = Mary Clifford
8. Sir Henry Wentworth, de jure 4th Baron Despenser, KB = Anne Say
9. Sir Roger Darcy, of Danbury, Essex = Elizabeth Wentworth
10. Thomas Darcy, 1st Baron Darcy of Chiche, KG = Elizabeth de Vere
11. Sir Richard Southwell, Kt., of Woodrising, PC = Mary Darcy
12. Sir Richard Southwell, Kt., of Horsham St. Faith's, Norwich = Bridget Copley
13. Richard Southwell = Alice Cornwallis
14. Sir Thomas Southwell, Kt., of Polylong in Ireland = Anne Harris, Lady Southwell
15. Sir John Dowdall, Kt., of Kilfinny Castle = Elisabeth Southwell
16. William Pigott, Esq. = Anne Dowdall
17. William Stamer, Esq., of Carnelly, co. Clare = Martha Pigott
18. George Stamer, of Carnelly, co. Clare = Jane Yorke
19. William Smith, Gent. = Susannah Stamer
20. Dr Henry Smith (*1701, near Limerick - +1758, London) = Maria Konau
21. Edward James Smith (*1741, St. Petersburg - +1801, St. Petersburg) = Antoniette Juliane Cramer
22. Edward James Smith (*1779, St. Petersburg - +1854, Hamburg) = Maria Elizabeth Poppe
23. Paul Joseph Heering (*1799, near St. Petersburg - +1854, near St. Petersburg) = Maria Elizabeth Smith (*1809, Hamburg - +1848, near St. Petersburg)
24. Paul Christian Heering (*1834, near St. Petersburg - +1904, near St. Petersburg) = Seraphima Meissner
25. Sergei Heering = Maria Tenetilova
26. Sergei Heering = Iraida Ponomareva
27. Eduard Ponomarev (Heering) = Valentina Karataeva
28. Vadim Ponomarev (Heering), St. Petersburg
c***@gmail.com
2018-07-17 05:15:49 UTC
Permalink
Thanks so much for sharing your line of descent from Sir Hugh de Audley and his wife, Isolde le Rous. Much appreciated. Hopefully others will do the same.

Many years when I first worked on this problem, I found that all of the published sources stated that Isolde, wife of Sir Hugh de Audley, was a Mortimer. But when I checked their cited references, I found no evidence to back up their claims. I subsequently withdrew the identification of Isolde as a Mortimer from my files and waited for further evidence to prove her maiden name and parentage.

This should serve as a red flag to all researchers. No matter how many times something appears in print, there should always be contemporary evidence to back up the printed material. If someone is merely quoting from another published source, one should proceed with caution.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 5:49:52 AM UTC-6, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> Douglas,
>
> Thanks for this post. This is one of my lineages from Iseult le Rous:
>
> 1. Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley = Iseult le Rous
> 2. Sir Hugh de Audley, 1st Baron Audley, 1st Earl of Gloucester = Margaret de Clare, Countess of Gloucester, Countess of Cornwall
> 3. Ralph de Stafford, 2nd Baron Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford, KG = Margaret de Audley, 2nd Baroness Audley, Countess of Stafford
> 4. Thomas de Ros, 4th Baron de Ros of Hamlake = Beatrice Stafford
> 5. Sir Thomas de Clifford, 6th Baron de Clifford = Elizabeth de Ros
> 6. Sir John Clifford, 7th Baron de Clifford, KG = Elizabeth Percy
> 7. Sir Philip Wentworth, Kt., of Nettlestead, Suffolk = Mary Clifford
> 8. Sir Henry Wentworth, de jure 4th Baron Despenser, KB = Anne Say
> 9. Sir Roger Darcy, of Danbury, Essex = Elizabeth Wentworth
> 10. Thomas Darcy, 1st Baron Darcy of Chiche, KG = Elizabeth de Vere
> 11. Sir Richard Southwell, Kt., of Woodrising, PC = Mary Darcy
> 12. Sir Richard Southwell, Kt., of Horsham St. Faith's, Norwich = Bridget Copley
> 13. Richard Southwell = Alice Cornwallis
> 14. Sir Thomas Southwell, Kt., of Polylong in Ireland = Anne Harris, Lady Southwell
> 15. Sir John Dowdall, Kt., of Kilfinny Castle = Elisabeth Southwell
> 16. William Pigott, Esq. = Anne Dowdall
> 17. William Stamer, Esq., of Carnelly, co. Clare = Martha Pigott
> 18. George Stamer, of Carnelly, co. Clare = Jane Yorke
> 19. William Smith, Gent. = Susannah Stamer
> 20. Dr Henry Smith (*1701, near Limerick - +1758, London) = Maria Konau
> 21. Edward James Smith (*1741, St. Petersburg - +1801, St. Petersburg) = Antoniette Juliane Cramer
> 22. Edward James Smith (*1779, St. Petersburg - +1854, Hamburg) = Maria Elizabeth Poppe
> 23. Paul Joseph Heering (*1799, near St. Petersburg - +1854, near St. Petersburg) = Maria Elizabeth Smith (*1809, Hamburg - +1848, near St. Petersburg)
> 24. Paul Christian Heering (*1834, near St. Petersburg - +1904, near St. Petersburg) = Seraphima Meissner
> 25. Sergei Heering = Maria Tenetilova
> 26. Sergei Heering = Iraida Ponomareva
> 27. Eduard Ponomarev (Heering) = Valentina Karataeva
> 28. Vadim Ponomarev (Heering), St. Petersburg
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2018-07-17 11:06:42 UTC
Permalink
sábado, 14 de Julho de 2018 às 12:49:52 UTC+1, ***@gmail.com escreveu:
> Douglas,
>
> Thanks for this post. This is one of my lineages from Iseult le Rous:
>
> 1. Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley = Iseult le Rous
> 2. Sir Hugh de Audley, 1st Baron Audley, 1st Earl of Gloucester = Margaret de Clare, Countess of Gloucester, Countess of Cornwall
> 3. Ralph de Stafford, 2nd Baron Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford, KG = Margaret de Audley, 2nd Baroness Audley, Countess of Stafford
> 4. Thomas de Ros, 4th Baron de Ros of Hamlake = Beatrice Stafford
> 5. Sir Thomas de Clifford, 6th Baron de Clifford = Elizabeth de Ros
> 6. Sir John Clifford, 7th Baron de Clifford, KG = Elizabeth Percy
> 7. Sir Philip Wentworth, Kt., of Nettlestead, Suffolk = Mary Clifford
> 8. Sir Henry Wentworth, de jure 4th Baron Despenser, KB = Anne Say
> 9. Sir Roger Darcy, of Danbury, Essex = Elizabeth Wentworth
> 10. Thomas Darcy, 1st Baron Darcy of Chiche, KG = Elizabeth de Vere
> 11. Sir Richard Southwell, Kt., of Woodrising, PC = Mary Darcy
> 12. Sir Richard Southwell, Kt., of Horsham St. Faith's, Norwich = Bridget Copley
> 13. Richard Southwell = Alice Cornwallis
> 14. Sir Thomas Southwell, Kt., of Polylong in Ireland = Anne Harris, Lady Southwell
> 15. Sir John Dowdall, Kt., of Kilfinny Castle = Elisabeth Southwell
> 16. William Pigott, Esq. = Anne Dowdall
> 17. William Stamer, Esq., of Carnelly, co. Clare = Martha Pigott
> 18. George Stamer, of Carnelly, co. Clare = Jane Yorke
> 19. William Smith, Gent. = Susannah Stamer
> 20. Dr Henry Smith (*1701, near Limerick - +1758, London) = Maria Konau
> 21. Edward James Smith (*1741, St. Petersburg - +1801, St. Petersburg) = Antoniette Juliane Cramer
> 22. Edward James Smith (*1779, St. Petersburg - +1854, Hamburg) = Maria Elizabeth Poppe
> 23. Paul Joseph Heering (*1799, near St. Petersburg - +1854, near St. Petersburg) = Maria Elizabeth Smith (*1809, Hamburg - +1848, near St. Petersburg)
> 24. Paul Christian Heering (*1834, near St. Petersburg - +1904, near St. Petersburg) = Seraphima Meissner
> 25. Sergei Heering = Maria Tenetilova
> 26. Sergei Heering = Iraida Ponomareva
> 27. Eduard Ponomarev (Heering) = Valentina Karataeva
> 28. Vadim Ponomarev (Heering), St. Petersburg

The line breaks at generations 10-11, Matt wasn't daughter of Thomas Darcy and Elizabeth de Vere.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2018-07-17 11:09:15 UTC
Permalink
sábado, 14 de Julho de 2018 às 12:49:52 UTC+1, ***@gmail.com escreveu:
> Douglas,
>
> Thanks for this post. This is one of my lineages from Iseult le Rous:
>
> 1. Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley = Iseult le Rous
> 2. Sir Hugh de Audley, 1st Baron Audley, 1st Earl of Gloucester = Margaret de Clare, Countess of Gloucester, Countess of Cornwall
> 3. Ralph de Stafford, 2nd Baron Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford, KG = Margaret de Audley, 2nd Baroness Audley, Countess of Stafford
> 4. Thomas de Ros, 4th Baron de Ros of Hamlake = Beatrice Stafford
> 5. Sir Thomas de Clifford, 6th Baron de Clifford = Elizabeth de Ros
> 6. Sir John Clifford, 7th Baron de Clifford, KG = Elizabeth Percy
> 7. Sir Philip Wentworth, Kt., of Nettlestead, Suffolk = Mary Clifford
> 8. Sir Henry Wentworth, de jure 4th Baron Despenser, KB = Anne Say
> 9. Sir Roger Darcy, of Danbury, Essex = Elizabeth Wentworth
> 10. Thomas Darcy, 1st Baron Darcy of Chiche, KG = Elizabeth de Vere
> 11. Sir Richard Southwell, Kt., of Woodrising, PC = Mary Darcy
> 12. Sir Richard Southwell, Kt., of Horsham St. Faith's, Norwich = Bridget Copley
> 13. Richard Southwell = Alice Cornwallis
> 14. Sir Thomas Southwell, Kt., of Polylong in Ireland = Anne Harris, Lady Southwell
> 15. Sir John Dowdall, Kt., of Kilfinny Castle = Elisabeth Southwell
> 16. William Pigott, Esq. = Anne Dowdall
> 17. William Stamer, Esq., of Carnelly, co. Clare = Martha Pigott
> 18. George Stamer, of Carnelly, co. Clare = Jane Yorke
> 19. William Smith, Gent. = Susannah Stamer
> 20. Dr Henry Smith (*1701, near Limerick - +1758, London) = Maria Konau
> 21. Edward James Smith (*1741, St. Petersburg - +1801, St. Petersburg) = Antoniette Juliane Cramer
> 22. Edward James Smith (*1779, St. Petersburg - +1854, Hamburg) = Maria Elizabeth Poppe
> 23. Paul Joseph Heering (*1799, near St. Petersburg - +1854, near St. Petersburg) = Maria Elizabeth Smith (*1809, Hamburg - +1848, near St. Petersburg)
> 24. Paul Christian Heering (*1834, near St. Petersburg - +1904, near St. Petersburg) = Seraphima Meissner
> 25. Sergei Heering = Maria Tenetilova
> 26. Sergei Heering = Iraida Ponomareva
> 27. Eduard Ponomarev (Heering) = Valentina Karataeva
> 28. Vadim Ponomarev (Heering), St. Petersburg

The line breaks at generations 10-11, Mary Darcy wasn't daughter of Thomas Darcy and Elizabeth de Vere.
c***@gmail.com
2018-07-17 15:30:15 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 5:09:16 AM UTC-6, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
< The line breaks at generations 10-11, Mary Darcy wasn't daughter of Thomas Darcy < and Elizabeth de Vere.

I believe there is a valid descent from Sir Hugh de Audley and his wife, Isolde le Rous, for Bridget Copley, wife of Sir Richard Southwell, Knt. [Generation 12]. The descent goes through Bridget Copley's 2nd great-grandmother, Eleanor (Welles) Hoo, and can be found in my Royal Ancestry book [5 volume set].

For an interesting biography of Bridget (Copley) Southwell, please see A Biographical Encyclopedia of Early Modern Englishwomen (2016), pg. 180, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=kDglDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA180

Anyone have any more descents to post from Sir Hugh de Audley and Isolde le Rous?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
HWinnSadler
2018-07-18 02:50:32 UTC
Permalink
Here is my descent from Sir Hugh de Audley and Isolde le Rous. If the line breaks somewhere, I'd like to know.

Isolde le Rous = Sir Hugh de Audley, Lord Audley
Sir Hugh de Audley, 1st Earl of Gloucester = Margaret de Clare
Margaret de Audley = Sir Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford
Beatrice de Stafford = Sir Thomas de Roos, 4th Lord Roos of Helmsley
Sir William Roos, 6th Lord Roos of Helmsley = Margaret Arundel
Margaret de Roos = Sir James Tuchet, 5th Lord Audley
Elizabeth Audley = Sir Edward Brooke, 6th Baron Cobham
Sir John Brooke, 7th Baron Cobham = Margaret Neville (desc. of Edward III)
Sir Thomas Brooke, 8th Lord Cobham = Dorothy Heydon
Elizabeth Brooke = Sir Thomas Wyatt the Poet
Sir Thomas Wyatt the younger = Jane Haute
Sir George Wyatt = Jane Finch
The Rev. Hawte Wyatt = Anne Cox
John Wyatt I
John Wyatt II
Ann Wyatt = John Stafford (d. 1733, Virginia)
Joshua Stafford, R.S (d. 1795, Georgia
Ezekiel Stafford, Justice of the Peace (d. 1853, Tattnall, Georgia)
Mary Stafford = John Pittman
Noah Gideon Pittman, C.S.A = Elizabeth Partin
Mary Elizabeth Pittman = Joseph Franklin Winn Jr. (d. 1944, Florida)
John Washington Winn Sr. = Lula Lavene Benton
John Washington Winn Jr., WWII Vet = Ethel Clemons (b. 1923, Tennessee)
Linda Kay Winn = Luther Allen Saddler Jr, WWII Vet (b. 1920, Princeton, WV)
Brian Keith Winn (d. 2013, Holland, MI) = Amy Louise TerVree
Hunter Ryan Winn
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