Discussion:
Connecting Thomas Wentworth, 1st Earl Strafford 1711
(too old to reply)
c***@gmail.com
2009-06-04 01:51:33 UTC
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In my quest to extract all the interesting data from the Linc Ped.
(VII)

http://knol.google.com/k/will-johnson/lincolnshire-pedigrees-volume-ii/4hmquk6fx4gu/241#view

I happened to arrive at the entry for the family Johnson of Friston.
Noticing that the heiress married the Earl of Strafford I checked
Leo's great database on him here

http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00053980&tree=LEO


but found him disconnected from his ancestors.
I'll give a bit of that

This Earl of Strafford was descended from the brother of a previous
earl of Strafford who had been beheaded.

Thomas Wentworth (1672-1739) was the son of Isabella Apsley, the
daughter of that Sir Allen Aplsey who was treasurer of the household
to James, Duke of York.

Thomas' father was that William Wentworth who had been Sheriff in
1672. Thomas' grandfather was that William Wentworth Slain at the
Battle of Marston Moor, this William had married a Saville co-heiress
but I don't know her name.

The William who was slain at Marston Moor, was the son of Anne
Atkinson and William Wentworth of wentworth-Woodhouse, 1st Bnt. Leo
already has these people. This connection explains a few things.

Will Johnson
Leo
2009-06-04 05:48:37 UTC
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Dear Will,

Your message has linked a bit more for me. The Apsley family is very
interesting, not just because Isabella's father was treasurer to the Duke of
York. Her father's sister Lucy was married to the regicide John Hutchinson.

Why mentioning sources can be such a help is that by simply looking at Sir
William Wentworth 1st Bart's source, you can see he is an ancestor of Prince
Charles.

Keep up the good work and stay on the chair...............not that this
makes you the chair man :-)
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: <***@gmail.com>
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To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 11:51 AM
Subject: Connecting Thomas Wentworth, 1st Earl Strafford 1711
Post by c***@gmail.com
In my quest to extract all the interesting data from the Linc Ped.
(VII)
http://knol.google.com/k/will-johnson/lincolnshire-pedigrees-volume-ii/4hmquk6fx4gu/241#view
I happened to arrive at the entry for the family Johnson of Friston.
Noticing that the heiress married the Earl of Strafford I checked
Leo's great database on him here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00053980&tree=LEO
but found him disconnected from his ancestors.
I'll give a bit of that
This Earl of Strafford was descended from the brother of a previous
earl of Strafford who had been beheaded.
Thomas Wentworth (1672-1739) was the son of Isabella Apsley, the
daughter of that Sir Allen Aplsey who was treasurer of the household
to James, Duke of York.
Thomas' father was that William Wentworth who had been Sheriff in
1672. Thomas' grandfather was that William Wentworth Slain at the
Battle of Marston Moor, this William had married a Saville co-heiress
but I don't know her name.
The William who was slain at Marston Moor, was the son of Anne
Atkinson and William Wentworth of wentworth-Woodhouse, 1st Bnt. Leo
already has these people. This connection explains a few things.
Will Johnson
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wjhonson
2009-06-04 10:23:16 UTC
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Post by Leo
Dear Will,
Your message has linked a bit more for me. The Apsley family is very
interesting, not just because Isabella's father was treasurer to the Duke of
York. Her father's sister Lucy was married to the regicide John Hutchinson.
Why mentioning sources can be such a help is that by simply looking at Sir
William Wentworth 1st Bart's source, you can see he is an ancestor of Prince
Charles.
-------------------

It appears that Lucy (Apsley) Hutchinson wrote a book in which she
relates several incidents about her own and her parents lifes. It
seems like this must be it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=dVY0AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA9

I've already found that she states that Lucy St John was the
"youngest" daughter of her father, which I had not known, and which
allows me to narrow the birthrange of her elder sisters a few years.

Perhaps tomorrow if I get time, I will go through and see if she has
any other interesting things to say about this St John family.

Lucy St John her mother, is a Cecil5 because Lucy's aunt Eleanor St
John was the one of that name who married Thomas Cave of Stanford, Knt
who died 1613 "qui cum annos 51".

This Thomas Cave's mother was Margaret Cecil daughter of Richard
Cecil.

Will Johnson
wjhonson
2009-06-04 23:08:10 UTC
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A little more on the ancestry and connections of Thomas Wentworth, 1st
Earl Strafford 1711.

Lucy (Apsley) Hutchinson mentions that her mother was not the first
wife of Sir Allen Apsley, and that Sir Allen had at her own birth,
then living, a son and daughter by his former wive(s).

The editor notes Le Neve's Pedigrees and checking that I see

http://books.google.com/books?id=NTLj3Y0knlIC&pg=PA372&dq=apsley+shelley+of+warminghurst

Anne Carew "heiress of Sir Peter". I tentatively identify her as the
daughter of that Sir Peter Carew who died 27 Nov 1575 at Ross,
Waterford, Ireland, by his wife Margaret Skipworth, Baroness Tailboys
of Kyme.

If this is a correct identification, it would add some other
interesting connections to this family. Le Neve shows here a daughter
Joyce and a son Peter Apsley, who are apparently those siblings that
Lucy is claiming were yet living at her birth 1620.

Will Johnson
Leo
2009-06-04 23:27:14 UTC
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----- Original Message -----
From: "wjhonson" <***@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Connecting Thomas Wentworth, 1st Earl Strafford 1711
Post by wjhonson
A little more on the ancestry and connections of Thomas Wentworth, 1st
Earl Strafford 1711.
Lucy (Apsley) Hutchinson mentions that her mother was not the first
wife of Sir Allen Apsley, and that Sir Allen had at her own birth,
then living, a son and daughter by his former wive(s).
The editor notes Le Neve's Pedigrees and checking that I see
http://books.google.com/books?id=NTLj3Y0knlIC&pg=PA372&dq=apsley+shelley+of+warminghurst
Anne Carew "heiress of Sir Peter". I tentatively identify her as the
daughter of that Sir Peter Carew who died 27 Nov 1575 at Ross,
Waterford, Ireland, by his wife Margaret Skipworth, Baroness Tailboys
of Kyme.
If this is a correct identification, it would add some other
interesting connections to this family. Le Neve shows here a daughter
Joyce and a son Peter Apsley, who are apparently those siblings that
Lucy is claiming were yet living at her birth 1620.
Will Johnson
============= Dear Will,
Do you know more about Sir Peter Carew? You confuse me. Sir Peter Carew and
Margaret Skipworth, you say, are the parents of Anne Carew. Who is Anne
Carew and how is she connected to the Wentworth family?

If you go to CP XII/1 Page 604
George Tailboys, Lord Tailboys, married Margaret Skipwith . He dies in 1540
and she married 20 February 1546/7 Sir Peter Carew who died d.s.p. 27
November 1575. If your Anne is the daughter of Sir Peter Carew and Margaret
Skipwith, she must have died before her father.

I have only that Lucy (Apsley) Hutchinson's father married three times, but
I have only the name of his third wife who was Lucy's mother.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
wjhonson
2009-06-04 23:56:30 UTC
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Post by Leo
----- Original Message -----
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Connecting Thomas Wentworth, 1st Earl Strafford 1711
Post by wjhonson
A little more on the ancestry and connections of Thomas Wentworth, 1st
Earl Strafford 1711.
Lucy (Apsley) Hutchinson mentions that her mother was not the first
wife of Sir Allen Apsley, and that Sir Allen had at her own birth,
then living, a son and daughter by his former wive(s).
The editor notes Le Neve's Pedigrees and checking that I see
http://books.google.com/books?id=NTLj3Y0knlIC&pg=PA372&dq=apsley+shel...
Anne Carew "heiress of Sir Peter".  I tentatively identify her as the
daughter of that Sir Peter Carew who died 27 Nov 1575 at Ross,
Waterford, Ireland, by his wife Margaret Skipworth, Baroness Tailboys
of Kyme.
If this is a correct identification, it would add some other
interesting connections to this family.  Le Neve shows here a daughter
Joyce and a son Peter Apsley, who are apparently those siblings that
Lucy is claiming were yet living at her birth 1620.
Will Johnson
============= Dear Will,
Do you know more about Sir Peter Carew? You confuse me. Sir Peter Carew and
Margaret Skipworth, you say, are the parents of Anne Carew. Who is Anne
Carew and how is she connected to the Wentworth family?
If you go to CP XII/1 Page 604
George Tailboys, Lord Tailboys, married Margaret Skipwith . He dies in 1540
and she married 20 February 1546/7 Sir Peter Carew who died d.s.p. 27
November 1575. If your Anne is the daughter of Sir Peter Carew and Margaret
Skipwith, she must have died before her father.
I have only that Lucy (Apsley) Hutchinson's father married three times, but
I have only the name of his third wife who was Lucy's mother.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
---------------------------------
Leo Le Neve's Pedigrees show that Anne Carew was the second wife of
that Sir Allen Apsley who was Lt. of the Tower of London in 1634. By
his first wife, he had had no children, although this first wife, had
had children of her own previously. By this second wife Anne Carew
"heiress of Sir Peter Carew", he had Joyce Apsley and Peter Apsley.

This same Allen Apsley, by this *third* wife Lucy St John, had our
authoress Lucy Apsley who self-states that she was the "eldest
daughter" of her own mother Lucy St John, but that Lucy St John had
three sons.

I only have in my database one Sir Peter Carew, but I suppose there
could be another one, I'm just not sure who he is yet.

Will
wjhonson
2009-06-05 00:11:19 UTC
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Post by Leo
If you go to CP XII/1 Page 604
George Tailboys, Lord Tailboys, married Margaret Skipwith . He dies in 1540
and she married 20 February 1546/7 Sir Peter Carew who died d.s.p. 27
November 1575. If your Anne is the daughter of Sir Peter Carew and Margaret
Skipwith, she must have died before her father.
----------

Oh I see it here now
http://books.google.com/books?id=dVY0AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA9#PPA8,M1

Evidently this "Sir Peter Carew" (father of Anne the second wife of
Allen Apsley) must have been a brother (or at least a half-brother) of
George Carew, Earl of Totnes

Will
Leo
2009-06-05 00:23:23 UTC
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----- Original Message -----
From: "wjhonson" <***@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Connecting Thomas Wentworth, 1st Earl Strafford 1711
Post by Leo
----- Original Message -----
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Connecting Thomas Wentworth, 1st Earl Strafford 1711
Post by wjhonson
A little more on the ancestry and connections of Thomas Wentworth, 1st
Earl Strafford 1711.
Lucy (Apsley) Hutchinson mentions that her mother was not the first
wife of Sir Allen Apsley, and that Sir Allen had at her own birth,
then living, a son and daughter by his former wive(s).
The editor notes Le Neve's Pedigrees and checking that I see
http://books.google.com/books?id=NTLj3Y0knlIC&pg=PA372&dq=apsley+shel...
Anne Carew "heiress of Sir Peter". I tentatively identify her as the
daughter of that Sir Peter Carew who died 27 Nov 1575 at Ross,
Waterford, Ireland, by his wife Margaret Skipworth, Baroness Tailboys
of Kyme.
If this is a correct identification, it would add some other
interesting connections to this family. Le Neve shows here a daughter
Joyce and a son Peter Apsley, who are apparently those siblings that
Lucy is claiming were yet living at her birth 1620.
Will Johnson
============= Dear Will,
Do you know more about Sir Peter Carew? You confuse me. Sir Peter Carew
and
Margaret Skipworth, you say, are the parents of Anne Carew. Who is Anne
Carew and how is she connected to the Wentworth family?
If you go to CP XII/1 Page 604
George Tailboys, Lord Tailboys, married Margaret Skipwith . He dies in
1540
and she married 20 February 1546/7 Sir Peter Carew who died d.s.p. 27
November 1575. If your Anne is the daughter of Sir Peter Carew and
Margaret
Skipwith, she must have died before her father.
I have only that Lucy (Apsley) Hutchinson's father married three times,
but
I have only the name of his third wife who was Lucy's mother.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
---------------------------------
Leo Le Neve's Pedigrees show that Anne Carew was the second wife of
that Sir Allen Apsley who was Lt. of the Tower of London in 1634. By
his first wife, he had had no children, although this first wife, had
had children of her own previously. By this second wife Anne Carew
"heiress of Sir Peter Carew", he had Joyce Apsley and Peter Apsley.

This same Allen Apsley, by this *third* wife Lucy St John, had our
authoress Lucy Apsley who self-states that she was the "eldest
daughter" of her own mother Lucy St John, but that Lucy St John had
three sons.

I only have in my database one Sir Peter Carew, but I suppose there
could be another one, I'm just not sure who he is yet.

===== Sorry to acknowledge my inability to get anything out of the URL you
gave, but if CP says Sir Peter Carew died without progeny, then is "the
other" Peter Carew the father of Anne who married Sir Allen Apsley?

In this line of searching, it is more important to know that "a" Anne Carew
was the second wife, but it would be good to know who her parents are. There
is a Barony Carew extant and also a Baronetcy, but I cannot find a Sir Peter
Carew...........

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

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Leo
2009-06-05 00:28:51 UTC
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Now you are getting somewhere CP XII/1 Page 798
George Carew, Earl of Totness, has a cousin Sir Peter Carew AND a brother
Sir Peter Carew who died 25 August 1580 who was killed by the Irish "in a
skirmish".
Leo



----- Original Message -----
From: "wjhonson" <***@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Connecting Thomas Wentworth, 1st Earl Strafford 1711
Post by Leo
If you go to CP XII/1 Page 604
George Tailboys, Lord Tailboys, married Margaret Skipwith . He dies in
1540
and she married 20 February 1546/7 Sir Peter Carew who died d.s.p. 27
November 1575. If your Anne is the daughter of Sir Peter Carew and
Margaret
Skipwith, she must have died before her father.
----------

Oh I see it here now
http://books.google.com/books?id=dVY0AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA9#PPA8,M1

Evidently this "Sir Peter Carew" (father of Anne the second wife of
Allen Apsley) must have been a brother (or at least a half-brother) of
George Carew, Earl of Totnes

Will



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wjhonson
2009-06-05 00:47:59 UTC
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Post by Leo
Now you are getting somewhere CP XII/1 Page 798
George Carew, Earl of Totness, has a cousin Sir Peter Carew AND a brother
Sir Peter Carew who died 25 August 1580 who was killed by the Irish "in a
skirmish".
Leo
-----------

Oh good that's excellent then corraboration that there was an extra
Sir Peter Carew. If he was a full brother of George Carew, Earl of
Totnes, then their mother was Anne Harvey, who is of royal blood, and
the father George Carew, Dean of Bristol is also of royal blood.

I don't yet know who Peter's wife may have been, but his daughter Anne
"heiress of her father" had been married firstly to some William
Wilford and then after William's death she went to live with her uncle
George.

Meanwhile her future husband Allen Apsley, left school and moved to
London to get some small appointment at Queen Bess' court. He went to
Cadiz with the Earl of Essex in 1596 and then apparently to Ireland
for something or other.

It was something in this time, when he met the young Anne Carew,
already a widow. I don't know yet who this William Wilford might be.

When Lucy St John's parents both died while she was young ( John St
John died 1594, Lucy Hungerford 1598), the household was broken up for
a time, she was sent to live with her uncle Oliver St John Viscount
Grandison.

Lucy (Apsley) Hutchinson, evidently quoting her mother's memories
states that Oliver's wife was "so jealous of him and so ill-natured...
that her cruelties to my mother exceeded the stories of stepmothers".

The only wife I know of Oliver was Joan Roydon, but other than her
name, I know nothing about her. What a nice epitaph! "Worse than a
step-mother..."


Will
j***@yahoo.com
2009-06-05 02:19:17 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Leo
George Carew, Earl of Totness, has a cousin Sir Peter Carew AND a brother
Sir Peter Carew who died 25 August 1580 who was killed by the Irish "in a
skirmish".
Leo
-----------
Oh good that's excellent then corraboration that there was an extra
Sir Peter Carew.  If he was a full brother of George Carew, Earl of
Totnes, then their mother was Anne Harvey, who is of royal blood, and
the father George Carew, Dean of Bristol is also of royal blood.
I don't yet know who Peter's wife may have been, but his daughter Anne
"heiress of her father" had been married firstly to some William
Wilford and then after William's death she went to live with her uncle
George.
Meanwhile her future husband Allen Apsley, left school and moved to
London to get some small appointment at Queen Bess' court.  He went to
Cadiz with the Earl of Essex in 1596 and then apparently to Ireland
for something or other.
It was something in this time, when he met the young Anne Carew,
already a widow.  I don't know yet who this William Wilford might be.
When Lucy St John's parents both died while she was young ( John St
John died 1594, Lucy Hungerford 1598), the household was broken up for
a time, she was sent to live with her uncle Oliver St John Viscount
Grandison.
Lucy (Apsley) Hutchinson, evidently quoting her mother's memories
states that Oliver's wife was "so jealous of him and so ill-natured...
that her cruelties to my mother exceeded the stories of stepmothers".
The only wife I know of Oliver was Joan Roydon, but other than her
name, I know nothing about her.  What a nice epitaph!  "Worse than a
step-mother..."
Will
You can find the answers to your questions about the two Sir Peter
Carews (and their wives) in a Carew pedigree in Vivian's edition of
the Visitations of Devon, available on-line at the BYU Library
website. Leo is correct: The Sir Peter Carew whose daughter married
[the elder] Sir Alan Apsley was a cousin of the other Sir Peter Carew
who married Margaret Skipwith and died without issue. This latter Sir
Peter Carew named the other Sir Peter Carew, his cousin, among his
heirs.

But there may be other problems in these connections. What evidence
is there that Isabella Apsley, mother of the Earl of Strafford, was a
daughter of the elder Sir Alan Apsley and not his son also Sir Alan?
If Isabella was in fact a daughter of the elder Sir Alan, what
evidence indicates which of his wives was her mother? Le Neve's
Pedigrees certainly doesn's shed any light on the questions.
wjhonson
2009-06-05 02:41:49 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.com
You can find the answers to your questions about the two Sir Peter
Carews (and their wives) in a Carew pedigree in Vivian's edition of
the Visitations of Devon, available on-line at the BYU Library
website.  Leo is correct:  The Sir Peter Carew whose daughter married
[the elder] Sir Alan Apsley was a cousin of the other Sir Peter Carew
who married Margaret Skipwith and died without issue.  This latter Sir
Peter Carew named the other Sir Peter Carew, his cousin, among his
heirs.
But there may be other problems in these connections.  What evidence
is there that Isabella Apsley, mother of the Earl of Strafford, was a
daughter of the elder Sir Alan Apsley and not his son also Sir Alan?
If Isabella was in fact a daughter of the elder Sir Alan, what
evidence indicates which of his wives was her mother?  Le Neve's
Pedigrees certainly doesn's shed any light on the questions.
Thomas Wentworth Strafford states this.
http://books.google.com/books?id=L3hYe8-6_gEC&pg=PA1

That Lucy Apsley was the sister to that Allen who was the father of
Isabella.

Will
j***@yahoo.com
2009-06-05 03:06:14 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.com
You can find the answers to your questions about the two Sir Peter
Carews (and their wives) in a Carew pedigree in Vivian's edition of
the Visitations of Devon, available on-line at the BYU Library
website.  Leo is correct:  The Sir Peter Carew whose daughter married
[the elder] Sir Alan Apsley was a cousin of the other Sir Peter Carew
who married Margaret Skipwith and died without issue.  This latter Sir
Peter Carew named the other Sir Peter Carew, his cousin, among his
heirs.
But there may be other problems in these connections.  What evidence
is there that Isabella Apsley, mother of the Earl of Strafford, was a
daughter of the elder Sir Alan Apsley and not his son also Sir Alan?
If Isabella was in fact a daughter of the elder Sir Alan, what
evidence indicates which of his wives was her mother?  Le Neve's
Pedigrees certainly doesn's shed any light on the questions.
Thomas Wentworth Strafford states this.http://books.google.com/books?id=L3hYe8-6_gEC&pg=PA1
That Lucy Apsley was the sister to that Allen who was the father of
Isabella.
Will
It's clear from that source that Lucy [Apsley] Hutchinson was the aunt
of Isabella [Apsley] Wentworth. Lucy was the dau. of the elder Sir
Allen Apsley by his 3rd wife Lucy St. John, and her brother the
younger Sir Allen (the father of Isabella) was also of that marriage
(per Le Neve). If so, then the 2nd, Carew marriage of the elder Sir
Allen doesn't figure into the ancestry of the Earl of Starfford at
all. Is this how you see it? Maybe I just misunderstood the earlier
posts and why the carews were being mentioned in relation to the
Wentworth ancestry.
wjhonson
2009-06-05 03:17:34 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.com
It's clear from that source that Lucy [Apsley] Hutchinson was the aunt
of Isabella [Apsley] Wentworth.  Lucy was the dau. of the elder Sir
Allen Apsley by his 3rd wife Lucy St. John, and her brother the
younger Sir Allen (the father of Isabella) was also of that marriage
(per Le Neve).  If so, then the 2nd, Carew marriage of the elder Sir
Allen doesn't figure into the ancestry of the Earl of Starfford at
all.  Is this how you see it?  Maybe I just misunderstood the earlier
posts and why the carews were being mentioned in relation to the
Wentworth ancestry.
I only mentioned the Carew's because I mention connections by blood or
marriage, not necessarily direct ancestors. That Lucy (Apsley)
Hutchinson had half-siblings whose mother was a Carew could explain
something in her own life, and so I mention it. After all, sometimes
the people who appear on your various life-time documents are not
directly blood-relatives, but legal relatives of some sort.

Joyce and Peter Apsley are so-far just names and rough guesses at a
birthrange, but perhaps digging into the documentary evidence for say
Allen Apsley, Lucy's brother, may just turn up a Peter Apsley
appearing somehow and now we'd know who he is.

So you're right that this particular Carew family is not in the direct
ancestry of this Earl of Strafford.

Will Johnson
j***@yahoo.com
2009-06-05 03:29:32 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.com
It's clear from that source that Lucy [Apsley] Hutchinson was the aunt
of Isabella [Apsley] Wentworth.  Lucy was the dau. of the elder Sir
Allen Apsley by his 3rd wife Lucy St. John, and her brother the
younger Sir Allen (the father of Isabella) was also of that marriage
(per Le Neve).  If so, then the 2nd, Carew marriage of the elder Sir
Allen doesn't figure into the ancestry of the Earl of Starfford at
all.  Is this how you see it?  Maybe I just misunderstood the earlier
posts and why the carews were being mentioned in relation to the
Wentworth ancestry.
I only mentioned the Carew's because I mention connections by blood or
marriage, not necessarily direct ancestors.  That Lucy (Apsley)
Hutchinson had half-siblings whose mother was a Carew could explain
something in her own life, and so I mention it.  After all, sometimes
the people who appear on your various life-time documents are not
directly blood-relatives, but legal relatives of some sort.
Joyce and Peter Apsley are so-far just names and rough guesses at a
birthrange, but perhaps digging into the documentary evidence for say
Allen Apsley, Lucy's brother, may just turn up a Peter Apsley
appearing somehow and now we'd know who he is.
So you're right that this particular Carew family is not in the direct
ancestry of this Earl of Strafford.
Will Johnson
Okay...thanks for the clarification.
Elizabeth St. John
2018-06-15 23:59:04 UTC
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Post by wjhonson
Post by j***@yahoo.com
It's clear from that source that Lucy [Apsley] Hutchinson was the aunt
of Isabella [Apsley] Wentworth.  Lucy was the dau. of the elder Sir
Allen Apsley by his 3rd wife Lucy St. John, and her brother the
younger Sir Allen (the father of Isabella) was also of that marriage
(per Le Neve).  If so, then the 2nd, Carew marriage of the elder Sir
Allen doesn't figure into the ancestry of the Earl of Starfford at
all.  Is this how you see it?  Maybe I just misunderstood the earlier
posts and why the carews were being mentioned in relation to the
Wentworth ancestry.
I only mentioned the Carew's because I mention connections by blood or
marriage, not necessarily direct ancestors. That Lucy (Apsley)
Hutchinson had half-siblings whose mother was a Carew could explain
something in her own life, and so I mention it. After all, sometimes
the people who appear on your various life-time documents are not
directly blood-relatives, but legal relatives of some sort.
Joyce and Peter Apsley are so-far just names and rough guesses at a
birthrange, but perhaps digging into the documentary evidence for say
Allen Apsley, Lucy's brother, may just turn up a Peter Apsley
appearing somehow and now we'd know who he is.
So you're right that this particular Carew family is not in the direct
ancestry of this Earl of Strafford.
Will Johnson
Peter and Joyce (or Jocasta) Apsley were children of Sir Allen Apsley Sr (d 1630) and his second wife, Anne Carew. They were therefore half-siblings of Sir Allen and his third wife, Lucy St.John's children (Lucy Hutchinson, Barbara Hutchinson, Allen Apsley, James Apsley and William Apsley).

Joyce married Lyster Blount (1) in the chapel of St. Peter ad Vincula in the Tower of London, where Sir Allen was Lieutenant (1617-1630). Peter went to the continent, where he joined the Royalists at the exiled court of Charles II.
wjhonson
2009-06-05 02:43:44 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.com
You can find the answers to your questions about the two Sir Peter
Carews (and their wives) in a Carew pedigree in Vivian's edition of
the Visitations of Devon, available on-line at the BYU Library
website.  Leo is correct:  The Sir Peter Carew whose daughter married
[the elder] Sir Alan Apsley was a cousin of the other Sir Peter Carew
who married Margaret Skipwith and died without issue.  This latter Sir
Peter Carew named the other Sir Peter Carew, his cousin, among his
heirs.
But there may be other problems in these connections.  What evidence
is there that Isabella Apsley, mother of the Earl of Strafford, was a
daughter of the elder Sir Alan Apsley and not his son also Sir Alan?
If Isabella was in fact a daughter of the elder Sir Alan, what
evidence indicates which of his wives was her mother?  Le Neve's
Pedigrees certainly doesn's shed any light on the questions.
As far as the other part of your question. Lucy states in her
autobiography, that her father had "one son and one daughter" then
living. Le Neve gives us their names, Joyce and Peter. Lucy also
states that by his first wife, he had no children. And that these
were by the second wife Anne Carew, daughter of Peter. And Le Neve
agrees with this statement as well.

Will Johnson
wjhonson
2009-06-05 01:06:50 UTC
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Oh Leo one more thing before I forget.

Lucy (Apsley) Hutchinson, states that after her uncle John St John had
grown up and married Anne "Laton" (Leighton), that his sister Lucy St
John (left her cruel "step-motherly" aunt and) came to live with him
and his new wife.

Anne (Leighton) St John was kind to Lucy St John her sister-in-law,
and took her to visit her own father who was then *governor of the
isle of Jersey*. This is a nice confirmation that Anne (Leighton) St
John's father was that same Thomas Leighton of Feckenham (d. 1609) who
had married Elizabeth Knollys, daughter of the famous Catherine (or
Mary) Carey *perhaps daughter of Henry 8*

Will Johnson
wjhonson
2009-06-05 01:50:40 UTC
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I shall shortly be presenting a stunning linkage between the lines
we've been discussing in this thread... and a continued ascent of
Sarah Ferguson which Leo is lacking.

Stayed tuned.

Will Johnson
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